Tdain
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Posts posted by Tdain
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ORLY try going against a team of mostly aug WH in mostly aug BM then. I do frequently given ranked has mostly died on my server and even though i'm in half WH it isn't pretty.
Doing the math below, yes, I consider the difference between WH and BM quite minor - as it is basically, around a 5% damage bonus, 2% damage bonus on top of that, and 10% health bonus from gear. I am not saying they are insignficant, but far more often than not, this differential will not be the reason you die as a key LOS, interrupt, team support, peal, cc, etc. will have more impact.
WH Force Mystic vs BM Force Mystic
End 1186 vs 1079 +107 (1070 health, about 10%)
Will 1023 vs 970 +53 (5.5% bonus)
Power 369 vs 376 -7
Alacrity 159 vs 204 -45
Crit 259 vs 265 -6
Surge 371 vs 337 +34
Forcepower 1298 vs 1224 +74 (about 5.5%)
Expertise 1291 vs 1164 +127 (24 vs 22.2% damage bonus, +1.8% damage)
That doesn't make it right for the PvP part of the game, PvP is not PvE and shouldn't be treated the same.There are different views on this. I accept that some folks (including you) seem to prefer 100% gear normalization in PvP and others like hard core gear progression. I think TOR does an excellent job navigating these competing views since it gives a reward and motivation to play which is a fairly standard MMO model, but the gear differences are minimal in my opinion and everyone has access to all the same gear.
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I am amazed how my original statement and topic in this thread has been twisted by a single senctence where I said I mostly win. Mostly is a relative word and does not equal 100%skill nor beeing a total noob. Everyone know that it is a team effort and not a single player can carry a entire team.
But I guess it is better to focus on that then to actually admit how bad endgame PvP in warzones has become for newly dinged level 50s.
Search for the post " Hitting 50 makes me want to quit" and you will get a taste what OTHERs think aswell, it is not a new thing and Bioware has eventually got to look into it.
I think what you really mean is that PvP for newly dinged 50's is challenging for as long as they wear recruit gear - which for most folks is a very short time.
I am starting to conclude the newly dinged 50's who complain about gear are simply used to PvP'ing with a mixture of levels where players don't have all their abilities. So their most recent memories are from when they were in the 40's where they were on top of the food chain and it is a rude awakening to play against folks with all their abilities and a full talent tree.
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I only hope Bioware looks into this huge gap between new players in 50 warzone and those that has been there for ages. That was what this post was originally about.
If you want to compare level 50 greens or recruit gear vs fully agumented WH gear, then that is really a silly concern. Folks have continued to say that BM gear is very easy to get and BM gear is very close to WH gear. So, your point of gear disparity is misguided at best and really just factually inaccurate.
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You seems to know a little more about this. How is expertise handled when it comes to huge differences say 800 vs 1900 for example
These #'s are not the best to use - better to compare unaugmented WH Force Mystic vs unaugmented BM Force Mystic for example:
Expertise 1291 vs 1164 = 127 expertise difference (24% vs 22.2% damage bonus, = 1.8% damage difference). This doesn't show healing or dmg mitigation, but you get the point. The differences are very small between BM and WH and most certainly not the cause of any win/loss in any but the most unusual situation.
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Thankyou for confirming my original statement in my first post. Gear according to you are by design constructed to prevent pure skill to be used, hence my original statement that gear wins over skill.
You talk about gear progression, well usually gear progression is adapted to the environment. It is that way in most games and even here if you look at the PvE part. You get some gear, use it against mobs that are challenging to finally beat them and move taking harder mobs on.
In PvP level 50 Warzone you do not have that natural progresson, you are zoned into a jungle with players that uses their gear to win. You say yourself that a recruit geared player cant win over a war hero geared player, is that progression? No not by a long shot.
PvP on equal terms where pure skill is used is fantastic, this wierd stuff we got in ToR where players hide behind their gear to win is hopeless. I hope you guys get enough players that want to pay for the grind to reach that when ToR goes F2P. Level 10-49 PvP was fantastic I have played eight classes through that only to find that level 50 PvP is hopeless.
Time will tell if ToR survives this concept in F2P, there must be some players that wants to go through that grind. If not I guess you WH guys are stuck with eachother until the last person drops out.
We get several of these misinformed posts a week...
1. There is minimal gear disparity between augmented BM and augmented WH - and it's easy to get BM as several folks have already posted.
2. Gear progression is a standard model for an MMO. GW2 is trying normalized gear in PvP - give it a try if you want.
3. Previous posts have shown the math between vendor BM and WH gear to be "around a 5% damage bonus, 2% damage bonus on top of that, and 10% health bonus from gear." If you think this difference is the reason you are losing, then you I really feel you are mistaken.
4. 10-49 PvP is more unbalanced than the minor math between BM and WH shown above. A 49 with full talents and abilities is more unbalanced vs. a level 12 with far fewer abilities, so I think folks have selective memories on this one...
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Another split would create longer queue times and then people who like to complain (90% of the forums) would be complaining about the longer queue times.
This ^^^
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My post was based purely on experience not the stats. We all tell Bioware to pay more attention to what players a re doing and not their precious metrics well thats what I'm doing.
I appreciate your constructive comments and share your desire to solve any problem which may exist. However, if the difference between BM and WH gear is as the math above summarizes, then changing the ease by which players can obtain WH gear doesn't solve the problem and we need to look elsewhere.
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I'm in half WH half BM on my sentinel, all augmented. Forgetting stats I can't compete in rated, coming up against full WH fully augmented teams (even when my team is on vent); and in normal coming up against a team with signficant numbers of full aug WH players there's a definite difference in terms of the damage I give and take compared with more obviously evenly matched teams. Its not negligible.
It actually wouldn't bother me if it didn't take so damn long to go from BM to WH. To quote Ed Park (Taugrimm) its grind to win.
Morrolan - I would like to see a little math behind this post. Fungihoujo did a nice comparison of WH Force Mystic vs BM Force Mystic which shows "Basically, around a 5% damage bonus, 2% damage bonus on top of that, and 10% health bonus from gear." If you are in 50% BM and 50% WH, then these are cut in half.
--> Is your argument that things would be fundamentally different if you could do 2-3% more damage and had 5% more health?
The overall issue is that BM gear is easy to get and the difference from BM to WH gear is estimated above, and pretty negligible overall, so I just find it difficult to accept the argument things would be drastically different if it were easier to get WH gear.
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So the solution is to have equally geared player like they do in 1 to 49 brackets as that was fun, at 50 it is not fun. And the reason is simple, you start out at a huge disadvantage and that just sucks the fun out of PVP. QUOTE]
So, you think a level 11 player is equal to a level 49 player just because the stats are normalized? Any thought to all those talents in-between? That arguments is not well thought out...
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Saw another post complaining about recruit vs. WH gear which was misguided...
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Recruit to BM is really short, BM to WH is far too long. I've been trying to grind my first piece and it's taking forever.
For argument sake, so what? So, it takes a long time to get from 140-146 level gear? Again, so what?
From what I see when inspecting people, they often wait to augment until they get WH gear - this is the problem. As now you are comparing BM gear to fully augmented WH gear which is a real difference.
Solution - augment your BM gear folks, then you are looking at a negligible difference when comparing augmented BM gear to augmented WH gear...
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The current PvP reward system is well designed. Let's accept that no single reward system will satisfy everyone as some folks legitimately prefer a gear normalization system where everyone has the same stats, while others prefer hard core gear progression where there is a massive gear disparity. SWTOR balances these competing interests very well.
1. Recruit gear = gives a fresh 50 a starter set to PvP - yes, you will get stomped, but it's a starter set.
2. Battlemaster = quite easy to get and it's a 140 value vs. 146 at War Hero, really very close. You can absolutely hold your own vs. War Hero gear in BM gear.
3. War Hero = rewards a gear grind and provides a tangible reward for continued play.
4. Augmentation = You can augment any tier of gear, so this is available to all players. If you compare vendor BM gear vs. Augmented War Hero gear, that is not a fair comparison as you can Augment BM gear if you wish and your argument is really one of credits and not gear. And credits are quite easy to get with companion missions and just the smallest bit of effort.
5. Mod Swapping = Provides the ability to customize gear which is another reason to play after achieving max gear while not tipping the balance in performance.
Overall, if you want 100% gear normalization in PvP that has everyone using the same stats then SWTOR is not exactly for you. And if you want a massive gear disparity where you can ROFL stomp someone more skilled because you have top gear and they have no access to anything which can compete, then SWTOR equally misses the mark. But SWTOR does a good job balancing and motivating you to play (this is an MMO after all), while making the easily obtained BM gear quite competitive vs the top War Hero gear.
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"Medals are now worth 500 Valor and 10 Commendations. Players only earn Valor and Commendations for the first 4 medals earned each match."
--> OK, this will reduce the commendation farming. Fair enough.
--> Now, incentivize the win.
Objective based WZ's need to incentivize players to focus on achieving the objective, hence winning. With everyone getting max commendations and valor for just showing up, I can see folks not really caring. Something like a 15% bonus to commendations/valor for the win would be nice. It doesn't matter what it is, but the system needs to reward the win or things will get pretty bad with folks not caring what happens at all.
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1. They already announced the process for rewarding BM commendations will change in the future:
"we will be changing Battlemaster Commendation drops in a future patch toward the same 'steady' progession goal without changing the overall average time to gear up. "
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2454364#edit2454364
2. Any while it is really bad luck to get poor RNG, who really cares? I have been BM for 3 weeks also. I have 13 commendations and have never bothered spending them. Who cares? Champion is essentially the same gear...
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I had a tiny glimmer of hope where I played 2 great and close Huttball games in a row followed by a very fun 2v2 in Ilum. But these experiences are so rare that they only serve to remind me of how much I miss PvP. The tools and structure exist for a great PvP game here, but sadly, I just don't see any moves in that direction.
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Jack of all trades and master of them all.
Sorcs match dps of snipers and mercs
Best aoe healer in the game
Can outheal in dps spec a dps spec merc
Make great ball runners in huttball
Bubble rocks
Best utility in the game with forcerun and pull
Oh and lets now forget all the slows and roots which arent governed by resolve
A sorc is a huge force multipier in huttball, which is 90% of pvp
Ur class has too many tools in it's tool box.
This is exactly correct. I have a 50 BM Operative Medic and it's just not real fun playing 90% Huttball and having a fraction of the Sorc utility. It would be different if Huttball was not the dominant WZ where their utility shines, but that's the way it stands now.
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Scoundrel/Ops dont need a healing buff, they need more utility if you ask me.
I can keep someone up with 3 people beating on them, most main heals I do crit for 5k. (600+ Expertise on my scoundrel) However I don't have much else apart from that and dispel.
No gap closes, no gap makers. (groin kick and run hardly counts) Our own shield protects you for 1 measly attack, normal or otherwise.
^^^
As a BM Medic, I essentially play Huttball all day. That's cool, I like Huttball. But I provide minimal utility to the team. I am the worst ball carrier, have limited defensive utility and limited offensive utility.
I cannot force speed to help score, cannot pull to help the carrier score or avoid fire. I have no AoE knockback to provide scoring assistance or defense. I have no grapple and my stun and slow is melee, which is not where I should be if I want to cast heals. I have a great Mez, but again, it's melee. And no gap closer so I have to be very aware of my own position.
When the game becomes even more about winning, then the utter lack of utility to help in Huttball will cause any team to question bringing an Operative vs other class.
Finally, there is the fun aspect. Utility also is the spice of most pvp games. It shows where you can add some skill and have fun. Making a great pull or grapple is very fulfilling and I lack that aspect of enjoyment on the Operative.
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This is already changing come 1.2, so why continue this argument? How about being a tad more constructive and debating how Bio should design the incentive structure come 1.2?
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Here's what really happened:
I was given an assignment to win 3 soccer matches this afternoon. I was not overly excited about this assignment, but well, I don't make the rules. But if that's the assignment, I was determined to be successful and do my best to be a team player and win 3 games.
I found several matches going on simultaneously and was randomly assigned to an 8v8 game. Unfortunately, I quickly realized that the 7 others on my team didn't actually know how to play soccer. There must have been some confusion at the registrar as my team was here to play football. They proceeded to collide with a few guys from the other team in mid with reckless abandon. I tried to kick the ball to one of them and pointed to the goal, but he proceeded to run from it with all due alacrity and punch a skinny guy with red eyes from the opposing team in the face. My team certainly seemed to be having fun, but none of them cared to realize the objective of soccer. I was disappointed they didn't care to play soccer, but I wasn't discouraged as I knew I would eventually find people who did. So, I decided to move over to the next field and hope they wanted to play soccer.
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It's objective based once you are BM and need wins for the daily, but as others noted above, it's a commendation farm fest before that. And the BM win focus also causes BM's to leave losing WZ's to follow the incentive Bio created (changing in 1.2).
If you want to create an objective based WZ, then the reward system must be linked to achieving that objective, while not totally demoralizing the losing team.
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All this is apparently going away soon. Weekly Q&A posted calls the daily/weekly pvp quest system and bags "interim" and going away soon.
Definitely for the best, OP is right on that the only incentive given in this system was wins. If the quests had been "earn x valor in warzones/Ilum" and valor scaled both with win-loss and duration of the game it would have been more sensible and people wouldn't have rage-quit every loss.
Again, another case of just fundamentally poor incentive design, nothing more or less.
Very well said. Requesting a system with a proper incentive design doesn't take away from all the people who pvp for the shear joy of it - it only enhances the experience. Let's hope the new system gives proper thought to the behavior they want to encourage.
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absolute proof of the inherent selfishness of man(in the general sense)......
I don't understand your analysis. Are you arguing that I should play a WZ for your benefit at the expense of my own? Or should I be raging at the commendation farmers who don't care about the win, when I am playing 100% for the team victory? Or does that mean raiders should take fresh 50's into end game content to get them better gear while it causes more wipes and longer runs? That's a hard sell my friend...
On the contrary, I am suggesting the need for a better reward system that creates synergy between the rewards and the behavior you want to encourage.
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Face it, if you're like the OP then you're a cowardly douche. You care nothing about the challenge of winning, even when behind, and expect everything to be handed to you because trying is hard work sometimes. You care nothing about the effect on the 7 other people who are also trying to win. Bioware didn't tell you to be a self-absorbed coward and a quitter, you just have those natural traits IRL and it shows in the way you compete, be it in video games or reality. You're the kind of person who won't do the right thing unless someone is watching.
Relax amigo... We are talking about the reward structure and the actions it encourages:
1. The system for BM's encourages you to complete the daily and that means wins.
2. The system for pre-valor 60 encourages you to farm commendations.
I am curious, do you have the same rage against all the commendation farmers (a large, perhaps majority, of folks playing 10-49) as well?
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Carebears PvP to get gear - News at 11
I am simply pointing out the designed reward system. Perhaps you would enjoy an MMO that started everyone at max level, there was only 1 class and we all had the same gear. Heck, I might even enjoy that game too.
I didn't design this reward structure, only pointing out the behavior it encourages.
WZ queue
in PvP
Posted
Queues on my server are generally longer than I would like, but not horrible. 4-6 minuites for level 50 at peak times for a PUG queue - I would love cross server queues for every reason, but will leave that to another thread.
What is the maximum length you would accept for a typical WZ queue? And thoughts if GW2 will push this beyond acceptable limits?