[Republic Level 50 Flashpoints - Rate by Difficulty]

From my experience, HM Esseles is one of the hardest of the lot. I had a group that did HM Taral V last night, and we managed to down every boss save the bonus one. It was much easier than Esseles.

[November preorders get IN here!!]

Late November, hoping for today

[The Secret to Guardian Tanking]

Another equalizer would be if guardian slash ALSO added an instance of Blade Barrier.

 

Even in Blade barrier's weak form, 2 separate ways to make it proc would change things heavily

 

I was thinking of making blade barrier a set of charges, something like the gunslingers ballistic dampers. Just keep the duration below that of the Blade Storm cooldown.

[The Secret to Guardian Tanking]

It's not only the difference between OS and GS, and the presence of unremitting in the Vigilance tree that we base our decision to go deep into the Vigilance tree to tank. Truth is, the upper tiers of the defense tree aren't really that useful. From what I hear, and I'm sure you have read this as well, Blade Barrier is sub par. I consider Inner Focus rather useless. And cyclonic sweeps isn't really that useful either since I find myself, at least at 25, focus saturated, so there is no need to use inner focus anytime in a fight. Stasis Mastery and Force Clap aren't terribly useful in PvE either, only in PvP. Even in PvP, Force Stasis with its 3 second duration isn't really all that useful.

 

Truth is, the upper tiers don't offer that much, not as much as the vigilance tree, hence why the majority of us, and probably myself included, will be going deep into that tree until things are changed.

[The Secret to Guardian Tanking]

Yeah at lvl 25 I was completely flooded. Honestly, we need less Courage and Cyclonic Sweeps, and more damage buffs/CD on strike reductions, or better defensive skills.

 

Making Blade Barrier a 3 charged ability with slightly higher damage absorption would be a nice start.

[The Secret to Guardian Tanking]

This does happen, and you can get Focus Flooded, and instead of Strike you use Slash to dump Focus.

 

Should this thread be reposted in the tank forums as well?

 

I'm going to be honest. Whenever I tanked I never had a problem with generating focus. In fact most of the time I have found myself focus flooded and had to dump a lot of it into slash. So no, focus is never a problem, at least up till lvl 25.

 

And yes, a lot of this can be said in the tank forum. This probably would be a better place for this discussion.

[The Secret to Guardian Tanking]

Actually, I imagine you would still want to use sundering strike to generate focus because it still generates more focus than slash. Guardian Slash costs focus to cast last I saw when I played during the stress test so sundering strike still has it's uses in generating focus unless they changed guardian slash to generate focus instead.

 

Thing is, is that sundering strike has a 4.5 second cooldown, and triggers GCD. Strike is only affected by the GCD. Now, it can be argued that sundering strike can be the main attack, and attacks like force sweep and overhead slash can be used in the interval. However eventually you're going to run into a situation where everything is on CD and you need to generate focus and threat.

 

As for the amount of damage Guardian Slash does after the 5 sunders, that was it. In this case I average the damage to 2500, a decent round number. It was given in the tooltip as the damage after all 5 sunders are applied.

[The Secret to Guardian Tanking]

Made some revisions to the mitigation calculations. Same results, just numbers are a bit different. Had an error in the damage calculation after mitigation. Please see the edit of the post.

[The Secret to Guardian Tanking]

I got a question about guardian slash and overhead slash. I saw that you never mentioned that guardian slash does extra damage if you have a full stack of sunder armor instead of applying sunder armor again. So wouldn't that actually make guardian strike the better strike for Jedi Knight tanks?

 

Other than that, I'm not questioning any other choice you prioritize in the vigilance tree.

 

Just did the math on this. With a full 5 sunders on a target, overhead slash actually does more DPS on a target. More DPS means more threat via Soresu form. The downside of this is that you have to constantly keep the sunders up using Sundering Strike. But keep in mind that using Sundering Strike also generates focus.

 

Guardian Strike however is more used to do both DPS and keep sunders up more easily. This means that you probably wont be generating focus via sundering strikes as you wont need to. Instead you'll probably be using Cyclonic Sweeps to reduce the CD of combat focus, and use that to keep your focus up, when applied alongside normal strikes.

 

Both abilities use the same amount of focus.

 

In greater detail,

Overhead Slash has a 9 sec CD (with talent), and with 5 sunders, does approximately 266 DPS

Guardian Slash has a 15 sec CD, and with 5 sunders does approximately 166 DPS.

 

Clear distinction.

[The Secret to Guardian Tanking]

 

For the record this is what I would consider the 'mandatory' points for a full defense build (although I would be okay with 3/3 pacification or 3/3 momentum rather than taking command I can't strictly show that) the other 10 can go pretty much anywhere, but personally I like something that looks like this and leaves 1 point free to go where ever. (Again, still okay with taking points out of command if you want 3 to play with. I'm a firm believer that while it's pretty nice that reduced cool down on AoE taunt is shouldn't ever really be NEEDED. By design if you have to use something like that on cool down there is a problem.)

 

The reason he chooses to go deep into vigilance like this is because the defense three is bottom heavy. Most of the better talents are at the bottom of the tree, and the higher you go, the more the talents become more 'meh'. Meanwhile the vigilance tree has talents that provide decent tanking ability. Probably the only higher talent that would be useful to get is cyclonic sweeps, in order to use inner focus more often, and perhaps guardian slash for decent snap aggro. However skills like Force Clap, Inner Peace, and Stasis mastery I can easily do without. Even Blade Barrier, as far as people on this forum are describing it, is inferior to the Protector/Unremitting combo.

[The Secret to Guardian Tanking]

Holy mathematics Batman.

 

I think it was ~5200 towards the end?!?

 

Anyway I just finished reading the "<Beginners Guide to Juggernaut Tanking by Phottek>" Not THAT is a tanking guide. I suggest everyone wanting to tank go have a read. Top shelf stuff. Puts this pitiful guide to shame.

 

I love math, but have never used it to verify my game. I've always played by feel (Fight a mob, judge relative ease of fight, make some changes then go in for another fight). For all I knew I was way off base and was just having more fun using Guardian Leap and Force Leap back to back.

 

Of course you know all this will change on Launch day with the first big patch...

 

I just don't like it when people throw out opinions without data. I'm the kind of person who needs to verify with evidence. If I have evidence, I can substatiate my claim. That's why I use numbers. And thanks for the armor rating.

[The Secret to Guardian Tanking]

First of all, seraphimm, I don't suppose you recall your armor rating at your max level do you?

 

Secondly, I just did the revised calculations for Blade Barrier vs. Protector/Unremitting build.

 

The assumptions that were made here were:

 

Mob hits for 3000 damage per cycle (2000 DPS)

Character was lvl 50

Character had a 4000 armor rating

Character had Soresu form on

Blade Barrier absorbs 300 damage per 1 hit.

Both Protector and Unremitting stack

Ideal conditions (basically all moves are done on time and there is no lag time between guardian leap and force leap)

Maximum mitigation is 75%

 

Known details:

Protector mitigates damage by 20% for 6 seconds. Has a 20 second cooldown.

Unremitting mitigates 20% for 4 seconds. Force Leap has a 15 second cooldown

 

The first set of calculations that were done were per cycle. The vigilance build depends on the cooldown of guardian leap, so that was set to a 20 second cycle. Blade Barrier depends on Blade Storm cooldown, so that has been set to a 12 second cycle. Per cycle, damage taken by the player is as follows

 

Vigilance build: approximately 15570 damage taken per cycle

Blade Barrier: approximately 10070 damage taken per cycle.

 

Over a 1 minute time period, the results were

Vigilance build: approximately 46710 damage taken

Blade Barrier: approximately 50351 damage taken

 

What this shows is that when armor is taken into account (the other calculation negated armor) the Vigilance build does indeed mitigate more over time. However, as per cycle, blade barrier absorbs more. The reason for this is that Blade Barrier has a shorter cooldown period than the Vigilance build, so it is less spiky. This is opposed to the tank taken full damage on the Vigilance build for a full 14 seconds. However, over time, the percentage mitigation for the Vigilance build wins out. The last thing to note is that the full mitigation for the Vigilance build is not being taken advantage of. The base mitigation without these abilities was 43%. You tack on 40% and you get 83%. However, the assumption is that the mitigation cap is 75%. So not all of the new mitigation is taken advantage of. Just keep in mind the mitigation cap is a assumption, and is subject to change with more data.

 

Hope this helps. I'll be making revisions as I gather more data over time.

 

Edit: Was slightly wrong on these calculations after inputting the new armor value. The results do not change, but the numbers are slightly different.

 

Per cycle, damage taken by the player is as follows

 

Vigilance build: approximately 13875 damage taken per cycle

Blade Barrier: approximately 11593 damage taken per cycle.

 

Over a 1 minute time period, the results were

Vigilance build: approximately 51173 damage taken

Blade Barrier: approximately 57966 damage taken

[The Secret to Guardian Tanking]

So this received a better response than I assumed it would. I had my fireproof pants on assuming it would attract the hate fueled flames from those who wanted to play today and couldn't and are willing to take it out on any post they find disagreement with. After all I'm suggesting people Tank without maximizing the Defense tree.

 

Instead the post was flagged as a 5 star rated post (thanks to whoever did that) and the conversation has largely been a positive exchange of ideas.

 

Also an early leader in the forums based on number of replies.

 

Not counting the threads complaining about not being able to play on day one of pre-release.

 

Anyway, Thanks again all

 

Seraphimm

 

It does make for good discussion, I have to admit. What you are doing here is giving a creative alternative to a standard build, one that most likely does work. On the forums you saw my calculations. It is very comparable to the standard defense calculations.

 

Actually... I'm going to have to redo them to take into account Soresu form and armor rating. I'll let you know what I come up with.

 

Number crunching, number crunching...

[The Secret to Guardian Tanking]

You're right on one point, from an angle -- and off on the other if my understanding of it is right.

 

1. Yes, riposte is off GCD, but your general ability to blow focus is tied to the GCD and the riposte CD. Realistically, you shouldn't have much trouble paying full value for riposte.

 

2. On Blade barricade, take note of the wording: "adds x to your defenses" -- it doesn't add X to your mitigation. It's adding 6% of your total defenses. So, assuming my understanding is correct and applying it to your example: it's adding 6% of 27%, not a flat 6% to 27%.

 

I took the skill and looked at my stats, and this was how I understood it to be working -- but I'm certainly not claiming I have it 100% accurate.

 

You're right on point 2. The tooltip does say increase defense by 6%, according to TORHEAD. So I redid the calculations, it's down to approximately 43% mitigation, with Blade Barricade. Still, it's a good number. Of course, that is assuming the formula I used for it is correct.

[The Secret to Guardian Tanking]

To keep form, and have an entire page just to me ---

 

On the level 50 talent build, there are two talents I think have questionable benefit.

 

1. Lunge

2. Blade barricade

 

On lunge, the cooldown and trigger (a defensive response) will always limit how often this skill is available -- and with focus management, you really should most of the time be able to swing it at full cost (really, it's the GCD capping you). The second part of the statement comes down to.. what else might you get? Well, you already took swelling winds and effluence -- pacification plays nicely into this, and makes the already free ability hit harder, as well as boosting hilt strike, which I think is a good grab for snap threat generation in a pinch. It's just got a silly CD on it, which I'm hoping gets reduced.

 

Blade barricade, if I understand it correctly, just doesn't work out right. The problem is that it's not flat damage mitigation, but it's a defense increase based on your current totals -- 6% may easily only work out to 1% mitigation for 3 points, which is just a bad investment.

 

Both abilities that you mention apply to riptose. What makes riptose really special is that it's not connected to the GCD. So even if you are in the middle of a non-channeled ability, you can still use it once it comes up. The additional argument is that Blade Barricade increases defense percentage.

 

Now, I like to use numbers. I live on numbers. From one calculation on damage reduction that I got here:

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list?page=5

 

(Not sure if this is the right formula or not, but since it's the only one I could find, I'm going to use it.)

 

Assuming that the character is lvl 50, and has 4000 armor (defense), he would mitigate 27% of the damage coming at him. You tack on 6% with Blade Barricade, you get 33%, if I understand it correctly. To me, 33% sounds a whole lot better than 27%.

 

Edit: Didn't take into account Soresu form, which increases the base armor to approximately 37%, plus a 6% damage reduction which makes it 43%. Adding 6% from Blade Barricade makes it 49%. That's nearly HALF of all damage that becomes reduced, an astounding number.

[The Secret to Guardian Tanking]

Hello to you again! And thank you for restarting this debate. To be honest though this may be a new build and if it is, I want to see how blade barrier holds up before running any kind of numbers again. I also want to see first hand how hard I'm being hit.

 

Other than that, from what numbers I have run, this is theoretically viable, and it does improve the harder you are hit. Somewhere between getting hit for 2 and 3K a pop, Blade Barrier loses it's effectiveness to this trick. And if he says this trick is viable, as he had done it in beta, I'll take his word for it.

[Predictions regarding the most popular crafting skill?]

Hard to say at this point. Based on previous experience, gathering skills usually will rake in the most dough on the AH ... ahem, GTN. That would be bioanalysis, scavenging, archaeology and slicing. Too many people will probably go bio because they all know health pots, ahem, medkits and stims are going to be in high demand. However scavenging and slicing help in the flashpoints I've done so far, and they provide materials for upgrades. That's a quite a bit more in depth than just building blasters and armor.

 

Really hard to say at this point what's going to be popular and what isn't.

[<3 Guardian's *Hello & Welcome*]

For Science!

 

This

 

But yeah, can't wait. Once a tank, always a tank. Can't wait to finally get on.

[Got in yet??]

I only pre-ordered 2 betas ago, so I'm really not expecting to get in until maybe a few days before launch. However, doesn't mean I haven't been waiting for this day to come. Gets me all jittery inside knowing that the wait is almost over.

[Hello from Kissimmee!]

And to all the other great people out there!