geschmonz
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Posts posted by geschmonz
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And for what it's worth, I'd be really happy with a single player Star Wars RPG. But an MMO brings with it other game modes than just "solo questing" -- it's okay that not every game mode is consumed by the majority.
The problem about this is that designing raids is as much effort as if you would design content for the majority.
At the end, it just is not justified to create something with an effort as raids need for a small playerbase raids traditionally address. The only solution is to create gameplay and assets for everyone, adressing an as large audience as possible.
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I also do believe that adding a new OPs in SWTOR as well as perhaps offering alternatives to those OPs for the people who don't want to/cannot raid, would revive that aspect of PvE content quite a bit. No doubt some of the current disinterest stems from a lack of content that's provided and people being burned out on/bored with the older stuff.
I think the MMORPG genre in total is not appealing anymore. Add to this the fact many MMORPG developers focus on "ancient relics" like organized group play, they dont really help to evolve the format to something better.
At the end, its always the same. Quests having "collect 10 x" and "kill 20 y".. battlegrounds where you defend a base, catch a ball or capture a flag, dungeons with a tank, a healer and dds.. and we got all that for 15 years already.. with a genre thats not going anywhere..
The same content used for OPs would have to be used for solo player experiences. Or lets even say, the focus should be on designing the solo and small group player experience and derive operations from it, which wont have dedicated assets and gameplay. Just a group setting with more demanding boss abilities.
Everyone would be able to see the same story. No matter if its played as an operation or as a solo player experience.
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Please forgive me for cherry picking this one point, but it caught my eye.
When you say "never was successful gameplay" are you referring simply to the fact that it wasn't played by a majority? Or something else?
Exactly. It never adressed the majority of MMORPG players.
I was part of a guild that ran a lot of ops during the 2.x cycle, and it was not uncommon to have enough people in a particular map (Asation, Denova, etc) that a second instance spun up. That's not exactly representative of a failure of that particular type of gameplay.
Thanks for your anecdotal evidence, but it is very hard to argument with it.
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My server is one of the bigger ones and our guild's always been a big part of the community so I've likely seen far more favorable numbers than on other servers but still, it's not all that dead.
Sorry, but guild raiding is as dead as it ever was.. no change here since WotLK. It was very low in TBC, tho, in comparison.
In its traditional approach, raiding never really worked as endgame for many.
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Yes and no. I wouldn't want to see OPs replaced by H2+ FPs however, they'd make a nice addition/alternative to those who don't want to play OPs, don't have time for it, would rather play with themselves and so on. Taking them away entirely though would be extremely unfair to the raiding crowd no matter how much you claim they're a minority. Even if they were a minority, those people deserve to get what they're subscribing for too.
Rift actually took some of their raids and reworked them into 1-2 man mini's as an alternative to those who don't raid.
The best solution is to create content for everyone. So if operation content was added, it also should be available for solo players and small groups as an additional mode.
But exclusive raid content is an absolute no go. Who should pay those raids? The content in the raids has to be consumed by the entire playerbase, and not only by a few. A approach like in rift surely would work, if it also was applied to new content.
Adding a system like that would create elitism among raiders and would split the playerbase, tho. "Why are they allowed to see my content?".. see the toxic reactions of the raider playerbase in WoW when LFR was introduced.
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Problem is, we've seen that it isn't very good repeatable end game content either. The Star Fortresses do very little to keep people subbing. They exist in that H2+ and Flashpoint middle'ish area you've described.
The ongoing monthly update is the key feature. Which gives a new story. And surely not raids.
Operations, as much as you seem to dislike the community that enjoy them, does create a community that will tend to subscribe.
Do you prefer 10000 customers playing your game for 1 week a month or 10 loyal customers playing your game every day?
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Statistically it may be a minority, assuming your numbers are valid and accurate but your last example, Sunwell in TBC, is also from many many years ago.
Actually its from the days when WoW had 13 million active players. Compared to nowadays with around 4 million players. While TBC, the playersbase still was growing, as it was early in the game lifecycle.
And yes, the number is accurate. It's a quote from the devs and an interview.
http://www.gameplanet.co.nz/pc/features/i138733/Blizzards-J.-Allen-Brack-on-Mists-of-Pandaria/
If you think back to the last giant raid we did, I think that was in the pre-Lich King era, was the Sunwell. The amount of energy and the amount of time that goes into creating those raids, and creating everything that has to go with it – monsters, the raid itself, all items, the armour sets and weapon sets have to be created – it's just a huge amount of team focus to create that. When Sunwell was effectively done, and Wrath of the Lich King came out, less than one percent of the playerbase actually experienced Sunwell.
I've just recently gone on a break from WoW however, up until last December, the entrance area to the newest raids were always chock full of people getting ready to go in. The place would be littered with about 50'ish people easily on any given night and it wouldn't matter if I signed in at 6 am EST and look for a PUG or go in with my own team at 6 pm, there was a constant coming and going of groups. Who knows, those people may be the 1% if you look at the grand total of a player base but that doesn't mean they don't deserve to receive raid content just because they're a 'minority'.
Raid participation in WoW is way higher nowadays. Mainly due to the fact they implemented a group finder, which allows you to assemble groups very fast. The part of guild raids, tho, is still as small as it was in WotLK. Which is not 1% but a two digit percentage.
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I just hope old ops could be toned down when new ones come out.
Operations have been wasted to a small group of players. The best solution is to turn them into H2+-flashpoints. Being soloable with some skill.
I believe, every flashpoint- and operation-content should be made soloable and playable by small groups.
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How can you know exactly what you talk about? Have you seen actual numbers or are you just basing all this on your own limited view?
Sure i have numbers. Of other MMORPGs and statistics from their playerbase. Blizzard Entertainment releases all their statistical data through their armory. And you get a half-year report of raid participation from fan sites.
Also i have a quote from Jeremy Gaffney, talking about solo players as the largest part of the MMORPG playerbase.
While i even doubt you know who Jeremy Gaffney is. Pro-Tip: Use Google
There is no need to counter your arguments because you only offer opinions just like everybody else.
I base my opinions on arguments you obviously arent able to counter.
Now, I would agree that the indications are there that the amount of people who play ops is not a majority, but to say almost no one plays ops is just your assumption. You have no real evidence to support that claim, just as no one else has evidence of the opposite of course but that still doesn't make your opinions more valid.
As i said, i have a lot of statistics from other games. I have interviews talking about player numbers and percentages playing organized raids. Sunwell in TBC, as an example, was seen by less than 1% of the wow playerbase those days.
Raiding always was, and always will be, minority gameplay.
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A) Please stop talking down to me like I am a raider. I am not, but I do understand that some other players are... some to the extreme, most these days on a more casual basis. By the way, this IS a traditional MMO, in the modern sense. I think the word you were seeking is "classic" or "old school".
No, i mean traditional MMORPGs which depend on organized group play. Raids. Premade battlegrounds.. All that kind of stuff noone was and is interested in. Even in the "good old days of vanilla" only a small percentage of players played raids.
I did not talk about your personal involvement into raids, so i wonder where you think i talk about your case?
B) Old school 40 man raids with tons of pre-requisites are definitely dead and have been for years. That does not however mean that players do not enjoy raiding, albeit on a more casual basis.
"New school" organized raids built based on guild groups in the size of 20 and 10 are dead as well. As still, since its first implementation, only a very few play it. Raiding never was successfull gameplay, and never will be. Only if you think LFR is comparable or part of the organized raiding game.
C) You completely talked past my point in your haste to condemn raiding.
Not at all, also i do not condemn it, i tell you facts why i think raiding was the biggest mistake in MMORPGs from the start. You are free to counter them.
There needs to continue to be a blend of all types of content that is common in the framework of an MMO.
No, there is no need for gameplay nearly noone plays. It's better to invest the development time into components most of the players actually really play.
Do you want to invoke a "but old school MMORPGs always had raiding"-dogm here? Wont work. Bring arguments. Only because "MMORPGS have been like this" is no reason.
Otherwise, might as well just make a series of console throw away games that are either solo only or group only online play.
What you call "throw away games" are currently the most successfull games. As they dont ask for commitment. The idea is that you may have a sub based RPG with an evolving story you dont throw away.
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Your extremism here is as toxic as is the elite raider and elite PvPer extremism.
I just try to counter the raiders attitude of "I demand all development recources for my special interest gameplay"..
Sorry, but its exactly that. Special interest gameplay of a few. A small but vocal group.
MMOs are meant to offer many facets of play, that a broad range of players will take interest in. That includes raiding (in the more modern and casual sense), group encounters, PvP, and solo play. You declaring otherwise does not change reality.
The "broad range of players" is interested in solo content, some small group content (either PVP or PVE), collecting mounts and pets and care-bearing, but not in raids which demand players commitment at a level most people are just not interested in.
Raids ask for way too much, be it commitment of the players or effort of the developers to add them. They are the worst incarnation of endgame, as their players demand everything for them self, as the effort to implement them is extremely high and unrewarding for any game company..
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I just love how people like you pull opinions out of....whereever...and then act as though you actually know what your talking about.
I know exactly what i talk about. You are free to try to counter arguments instead of arguments ad hominem.
tl; dr: l2discuss
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Solo gameplay.
And to raise player retention, they should add engaging crafting and collecting. And a trade system. Games like Black Desert online show, how to do that.
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What exactly is "nearly noone"? On a fairly regular basis my guild alone has at least 20-25 people (or more) running operations, SM, HM, w/e, and trust me, we are about as far from a "elite raiding guild" as you can possibly get.
Most of the players even arent in guilds. Most of the guilds do not commit to raiding groups. You are, even if you think your anecdotal evidence is interesting, a part of a small minority. Organized raiding never really adressed more than 10% of the playerbase of nowadays MMORPG players.
Compare to that the fact that MMORPGs have at least round about 60% solo players.. and even more. Add to this the other large part of guilds that never raid.. and you talk about a niche gameplay.
It is currently 4:30pm on a Thursday, and I see 4 groups running KP, and another 2 groups trying to be formed on fleet (and I am sure that number will go up when it gets to prime time). Is it a minority in the game, sure, but I certainly wouldn't call that no one.
Close to noone. A small percentage.
And yes, there are toxic players in raids.
Raids are the main reason for toxic communities. As they demand a high level of contribution and commitment, which creates elitism at the end. Elitism, because raiders think they have to get the best rewards, the most content and the biggest amount of gameplay.. even if they wont even be enough to pay a single raid boss.
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I don't advocate ending raid development, nor PvP for that matter. There is a tradition of this content being part of an MMO, and I think as long as people want that content.. it should continue.
Traditional MMORPGs arent successfull nowadays. And take a guess, why.. because they want people to commit to groups to play organized gameplay like raids..
Sorry, but your understanding of "traditional" MMORPGs just is a complete failure. Raiding never was and never will be successfull as endgame. Raiding eats a lot of resources for absolutely no considerable gain by adressing the large playerbase, it just adresses those who bring in elitism and the wish for exclusivity into the content design process.. which is an absolute no go for a AAA RPG game which was meant to be played by millions..
but that does not excuse the rhetoric that comes from avid raiders and avid PvPers who demand their facet be the center of attention.
But thats exactly the problem. To design raids means to invest a lot of effort into minority gameplay. And that effort could really be used better to adress a large group of players with content that really is successfull.
This studio seems to like to focus on one or two key facets with each expac and then fill in some gaps in major patching in between. We don't have to like it, but it is a reality for this MMO.
Noone except a small vocal minority misses raids. And noone should listen to these.
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then they could just make it offline. all problems would be solved kappa
Then you wont have group interactions, pvp and flashpoints anymore. There is group play outside of raids.
if you only want to play raids, go and play WoW.
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By using the term "people" you mean "some small toxic minority that wants everything hardcore"?
Nearly noone plays raids. Why should Bioware add new raids if noone is playing them?
It's way better to focus on single player content.
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Really great. I almost quitted the game before this was released.. Now i am back and stay. More like this, Bioware!
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There should be more single player content, and no more raids. Only a very few play raids. And those very few have a lot of other MMORPGs where they may play.
Also, raids are like a magnet for bad apples. Every single MMORPG which bases its endgame on raids has a highly toxic and rotten community based on elitism.
SWTOR does not need raids. It's a single player RPG with MMO elements, which is exactly what adresses the players that play the game.
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The root of toxicism in MMORPG communities is elitism.
To believe someone is better because he raids in organized groups. To believe you are special because you achieved something completely none mattering as like a computer game which makes you superior.
Actually playing games is about fun. And not about being the best of everything.
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Seriously, MMOs are not your genre. Not meaning to offend, but if you find this in any way shape or form 'grindy', you should go and play single-player RPGs. No matter how much you want this to be an 'RPG with MMO elements', it is not. By it's very definition it's an MMO first, RPG second. Granted, there are far more RPG elements in this game than in other MMOs, but it's still an MMO. And MMOs come with MMO-related content. Which includes your so-called 'grinds'.
Thats just your stereotype. No modern western MMORPG following your idea will be successfull nowadays. As shown by all those Wildstars, Aions, Age of Conans, the permanent decline of World of Warcraft..
You actually have no other argument than "But .. but.. MMO means Grinds!".. no, it doesnt. MMO just means "Massive Multiplayer online", even without including a level of organization for group play. Anything else you interpret into that is just your paradigm, which fails continously nowadays.
A rpg with story driven elements and as few grinds as possible will always be more successfull than the typical wannabe-hardcore-gamer Everquest'ish approach nowadays.
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Honestly OP if you think the Qyzen quest is a terrible grind you have no idea the real meaning to the term grind in MMOs. You have it way easy in this game.
Just because there are even more worse grinds in other games means any less painful grind is justified?
And SWTOR is no classical MMORPG, its a RPG with MMO elements.
It needs no daily "collect quest item x".
We talk about a game and not about working at a assembly line. Old fashioned MMORPGs are not successfull nowadays.
if you want an assembly line, apply for a job at an assembly line.
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Dear Bioware,
grinds in a story driven RPG are an absolute no go. If i talk about grinds, i mean the same activity over and over for a long period to issue a skinner box effect.
I talk about grinds as like the ones you implemented for Qyzen Fess. I would like to ask you to get rid of those pure "collect 1000 x" grinds, and diversify the repetetive gameplay way more.
If you want us to play the game, add content to do so. An example:
To get Qyzen Fess, add loot drops from daily activities as like running a flash point, doing the h2 missions or even operations (while none of them should be mandatory). That way your players could actively choose which path they take to gain the followers reputation.
Also, it is just not needed to ask people to login every day to collect quest item x a hundred times just to sell the game. Add a single 10 quest chain each month for a new companion and the people will be way more happy as if they would have to grind for it.
Thanks for reading.
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Droids would be interesting as playable race.
"Hi, i am Darth D2-KE, and the force is with me! Beep."..
Why are people still mad about no new raids?
in General Discussion
Posted
Take a guess. Because its different from other MMORPGs. It has a ongoing story. It's more a RPG than a MMO.