Sendrel
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Posts posted by Sendrel
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Since my opinion is mine own, and the opinion of others about my opinion is inconsequential, feel free to think whatever you like. I know I will.
Given the frequency with which you respond to pretty much anything, I have a hard time believing that you actually consider the opinions of people who disagree with you 'inconsequential'.
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You do realize what you just said is what dual spec is? The ability to swap from 1 saved spec to a different saved spec changing your hotbars and keybindings when you swap. You have 2 saved spec..... dual spec..... Rift has it where you can save 5 spec but it is still referred to as dual spec.
I think the objection is to the restriction implicit in the word 'dual'. It just implies you'd be limited to two as opposed to multiple.
My $0.02.
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Rather than dual spec as its implemented in other games (eg WoW) this...
What we need is the ability to save various talent builds and quickbar / keybinding setting just like we do with our UI preferences such that changing from one build to another simply requires loading the saved settings (subject to any current lock-outs that exist today such as not being able to change specs upon zoning into a PVP match)....would get my vote.
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Agree with the OP.
The loading screens, while not a deal breaker, can be on the annoying side.
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Nevermind
Its really about all you can do.
/shrug and move on.
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I'm betting many people cry about immersion so much due to the fact that they want to escape the real world which is honestly sad.
It sounds less like you're trying understand and more like you're pronouncing judgement.
I don't fully understand the complaints about lack of immersion either. And that's ok. The validity or lack thereof doesn't depend on my understanding.
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In the end it appears some folks are trying to argue to change minds. Putting forth logical arguments that just so happen to fall in with your desired outcome is fine, as long as you are VERY clear as to your motivations.
I think, rather than actually arguing to change minds, people are trying to shout down differing points of view. It was pretty apparent when the discussion turned towards which dev comment was most relevant that neither side had much in the way of a solid argument either for against AC swapping just based on that alone. But how many pages did that take up? A dozen? More? It took 'silly' to a whole new level and gave new meaning to intellectual dishonesty. Just two sides of an argument, frantically grasping for something to shut the other side up.
At this point, it's pretty apparent that neither side is going to change their mind any time soon.
I respect your opinion about AC swapping even if I don't share it. I don't share it mostly because I don't attach the same significance to AC's that most people against AC swapping do.
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You've said that, but the overall theme in your posts leaves me doubting your veracity.
Respectfully suggesting that you've read waaaay too much into the 'theme' of my posts.
I'll clarify:
If BW/EA decided not to add AC swap ever, I'd still level the characters I plan on leveling based on the interests I have and the stories I want to see. I might not stay sub'd as long as I would otherwise, but in the grand scheme of things, that's probably not a huge deal for either party (BW/EA or myself).
If, on the other hand, they decided in favor of adding such a feature, I'd abuse it mercilessly (by which I mean I'd probably swap a couple times a month depending on my mood). The characters that I had lost interest might seem more appealing if I were allowed to play them a different way as I saw fit. I don't group a lot, and so wouldn't be an undue burden on anyone else.
I'm cool with it either way - I just disagree that AC equates to class.
And now, I'm gonna slowly back away because you, my friend, are wrapped to tight for living.
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Why do you feel so threatened when someone suggests that you actually live with the consequences to which you agreed when you made a choice and confirmed that choice was the one you wanted to make? Why do you feel so threatened when someone brings up the fact that you were advised no less than four times by no less than two different NPC's that your choice was permanent?
Living with the consequences of my actions isn't very threatening. I do that every day.
Just for grins though, go back and reread my posts without your 'WOAHENTITLEMENT!!111!' glasses on. I'm pretty sure I was clear on the fact that I don't have a problem with leveling the characters I planned on leveling.
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There is ONE AND ONLY ONE class in WoW that can fill all four of the roles you mentioned.
And there are multiple in RIFT.
Look, I get it - you see SWTOR classes and AC's as synonomous. Others may or may not share that point of view. I personally don't. Why do react so aggressively and get so threatened when someone simply disagrees with you?
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A class of "rogue" is a restriction for restriction's sake, using that logic.
Can a sorcerer stealth? Can a sorcerer tank effectively? Is a sorcerer a melee DPS?
Can an assassin heal effectively? Is an assassin a ranged DPS?
Can a sniper stealth? Can a sniper heal?
Can a marauder wear heavy armor?
Those seem like pretty glaring CLASS (AC) differences to me.
I know there are some ways in which the various classes (AC's) are similar, but a DK has many similarities to a warrior and warlock has many similarities to a mage or a priest, yet they are different classes.
If I decide that I made a "bad choice" in leveling a warrior, should I be able to change that character to a DK or should I have to level a DK if I want to play a DK? Should I be able to change a warlock to mage if they nerf warlocks and I decide I made a "bad choice" when I chose warlock or should I have to level that mage?
I disagree that AC = class.
Assuming you're referring to WoW, I do have the ability to swap from rDPS, to heals, to mDPS, to tank all on one character. I see AC more as a restriction between roles as opposed to classes and, if that's the objection of the majority (not being allowed to swap roles at will), that's fine - I just disagree that the restriction is necessary or even all that desirable.
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If they allowed even restricted class (AC) changes, even if they put STEEP restrictions on allowing class (AC) changes, how long do you think it would be before the first thread popped up asking that THOSE restrictions be changed or lifted?
I'd probably start that thread pretty much as soon as they announced what the restrictions would be.
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It shouldn't be appealing. That's the point. It's an option you take because it's the right choice for you — like paying for an expensive character rename.
ACs should still exist and matter, and people should still see a point to leveling new characters. That's all healthy for the game.
Being absolutely held to a decision you made blindly at level 10 is something I don't approve of, though.
I think the difference between myself and most of the other people who post in these threads is that I don't really attach the same significance to the AC. It just seems like restriction for restriction's sake.
I think leveling new characters should be something you want to do as opposed to something you're forced into because you made a bad choice and, having swapped once already, the cost is too prohibitive. I'll level and play (at least intermittently) the characters I have planned with or without AC swapping. The ability to do that just doesn't enter into the 'roll an alt' equation for me.
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Mark me down as one of those people who just doesn't see the point of allowing AC swapping if there's a huge, recurring cost and/or cooldown associated with it. A steep, one-time cost on a per character basis? Sure, especially if its tied to the Market and can generate some revenue. Small, recurring cost also tied to the CM to generate revenue? Ok - probably wouldn't be my preference, but sure. Punitive cost and cooldown? Not very appealing.
I have a set number of characters that I'm willing to level up. That won't change with or without AC swapping. What could keep my interest longer is the ability to swap back and forth between AC's at will.
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Those are the facts. Interpret them any way you choose.
I choose to interpret it as the devs not having anything of importance to say on the topic at this point. You guys have devoted pages of back and forth in the other thread to what basically amounts to trying to shout down the other guy when neither of you have any clue about the devs actual intention.
Pretty silly.
@ the OP: I think AC swapping is a great idea, and would love to see it implemented in SWTOR.
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I'll never understand the pushback on these requests. Pretty sure he's not asking to completely do away with double xp, just allow those who don't wish to participate a way to toggle it off at will.
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Sort of. What I'm saying is that the leveling grind in SWTOR is relatively mild given that the game provide us with several exp gaining options combined with a fairly generous gain rate. And that's not even including the various double exp weekends. As such, players need to be given more reasons to level multiple characters, not fewer, in order to sustain this game for the long run. For example, if AC respec is allowed, I can easily get 4 characters (one for each basic class) to level 55 within 4 months and spend another 5-6 months to get them full 78/180 comm gear. After that is done, what reason is there for me to level another character when I have already experienced all 8 ACs? Make 2 more characters so I can have all of the crafting skills? Well, I don't even need to get them 55 for that. Level 30 with 3 companions is more than sufficient for crafting mules.
And what I'm saying is that people will level whatever number of characters they feel comfortable leveling. Trying to force them to level more is just an exercise in frustration for everyone involved. The reason to level more characters is because you like to play more characters and don't like to focus on one at a time, or you like a particular story line and want to experience it again. Not because you're tied to an archaic and inflexible spec system. You asked what reason is there to level more characters after reaching endgame with AC swapping? There are literally a metric truckload or reasons to level more characters. None of which is very convenient for your argument.
In short, I really doubt you're going to keep more people than you'll lose by not introducing AC swapping.
As for your role swapping argument, all ACs with the exception of Mara/Sent and Sniper/Gunslinger can already do that whether it is respeccing from tank to dps or dps to healer. I gather you don't believe that this moderate amount of role flexibility is enough?Nope, I don't. The gist of my argument boils down to allowing more choice. It just seems like restriction for restriction's sake. If you admit that swapping from heals to dps isn't a big deal, why not go all the way? Who gets hurt? And how much money does BW/EA stand to make in the Cartel Market?
Correct me if I'm wrong but everything I have read regarding Rift class system basically boils down to encouraging players to experiment with hybrid characters. For example, a rogue that has a primary tanking soul but also a secondary healing soul. The SWTOR equivalent of that would be a Sin/Shadow tank with some Sorc/Consular healing abilities thrown in. That would be an apples to apples comparison and also simply not going to happen in this game regardless of the inclusion of AC respec.Well its a good thing that no one is asking for that then!
Seriously, no one is asking for BW to go all in and allow full hybridization. You're right, the game isn't balanced for that. Which is why I tried to get you to focus on roles instead. Because that's where the comparison works.
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Not an over-estimation at all considering player now-a-days can also PVP or Kuat their way to 55 in addition to the traditional method of class/planet quests and SM FPs. Grinding the content with various characters/alts is a staple of any MMO and players have come to expect it, regardless of their own personal tolerance levels. In my opinion, with leveling as easy as it is right now, only having to grind through 4 characters in order to experience a large chunk of the game is flat out insufficient and unhealthy for the long term viability of SWTOR.
Just so I understand and don't strawman you, you're saying that its easier to xp your way to 55 via PVP or Tactical FP grinding, so we need to make sure to force people to grind more? I get that MMO's are traditionally all about the treadmill. I just disagree that people will be turned off faster by providing a feature that allows for more customizability. If anything, they'll be forced to grind more end game gear to satisfy multiple specs. Which is all AC swapping really boils down to. The ability to swap roles. In that sense, I would be arguing in the other direction from you - that the lack of options with regard to swapping roles is insufficient and therefore unhealthy for the long term viability of swotor.
Eh, the Rift system is not really comparable to SWTOR's. From what I understand Rift has 4 base classes also but each of them has what, 8 various skill trees or souls to choose from (up to 3 max)? That's a lot of unique and potentially viable combinations. SWTOR on the other hand has only 3 skill trees for each AC and if you split your points evenly between all 3, the resulting character will be rather... worthless. Of course there are still viable hybrid Marauder/Sent or Sniper/Gunslinger buildsbut they still remain in the dps role instead of crossing over into healing or tanking. Perhaps Sorcerers/Consulars is the lone exception to this rule as some PVP builds are dps/healing tree hybrids but at the same time, such builds aren't really viable for the PVE side.The only way SWTOR would be comparable to the Rift system would be to eliminate ACs all together (rendering this debate moot) so we can build dotsmash Warriors/Knights with some tanking abilities or Agents/Smugglers that can stealth, ambush/cull and drop Kolto probes at the same time. Such a system could have worked in all honesty but that ship has sailed long ago. I doubt BW/EA would be willing to make such a foundational alteration to the game considering it's been more than 2 years after launch.
Its directly comparable in the sense that all AC swapping really amounts to is role switching. The ability to switch between dps, heal, and tank roles. That's exactly what Rift allowed and it would work just as well here as it worked there.
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Right now if you wanted to experience the abilities and play styles of every class in SWTOR, you need a *minimum* of 8 characters. In other words, one for each AC. For particularly devoted players who also want to experience every storyline along with every AC (despite the Imp/Pub ability mirrors), that number grows to 16. It may not be difficult to grind a new character to level 55 but at least it will still keep the players busy for a while, especially those who do not spend 40 hours per week in game. Now if BW allowed for AC respec/change then that number would get cut in half or in other words.
So the argument is that it has replay value. That's not a bad argument, but I think you over-estimate people's willingness to grind that content repeatedly. And I think you over-estimate how many people really want to see the story content with the only differentiator being an alternate AC. The class story itself doesn't change, just the playstyle. People make alts for a huge variety of reasons, I just don't think you cut out half of the alt-making population by allowing AC respecs. I'd guess you wouldn't reduce the amount of alts at all really. I can only speak for myself, but if AC respecs were allowed tomorrow, I'd still create and play all the alts that I have planned currently.
So yeah, respectfully disagree.
Which MMO do you know of allows for that? I can't think of a single MMO where having 4 characters would translate into having played every single class in the game. Frankly, BW/EA may as well put their business plan into the shredder and be done with it if they were foolish enough to implement this.Rift.
Rift had probably the most flexible class structure of any modern MMO. And it worked pretty well.
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Swapping from class to class at endgame is both counterproductive and a bad financial idea.
Can you maybe elaborate on that some more? Not seeing how its either counterproductive or a bad financial idea.
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One extra example I can offer was a flashpoint. Group of 4. Halfway the fp, the tanks says, hang brb, I gotta go take a shower. He came back 20 mins later like nothing happened. We only stayed to get his reaction for when the rest of us quit the group right then and there when he got back. He really didn't get why we quit. Seriously, people are ridiculous.
The biggest reason why I don't group as much as I did when I first started playing MMO's is that right there. Because my circumstances have changed pretty dramatically in the intervening 15ish years and I'm unwilling to force others to stop and wait every time I need to afk, which is a pretty common occurance these days.
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BW WILL lose subs if they allow class changes.
Doubtful.
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There have been many reasons given in the countless threads on this topic as to why class changes should not be allowed. A simple forum search would provide you with plenty of reading material so that you can familiarize yourself with those reasons.
In the end, they all boil down to 'I don't want you to be able to play that way'. I've seen (and participated in a fair few of) the threads.
In the end, we already have the means to play any new class we wish to play. All it takes is a modicum of time and effort to actually level that new class.None of which I have a problem with. I have a (tentative) plan that would get me to 16 characters - counting both factions - on my current server. I don't have a problem leveling or investing time into something.
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No, there would be no other changes to what you get as a subscriber. The idea is that nothing would decrease, it's all about getting a better deal on Cartel Coins once a month with your subscription payment.
Fair enough. I guess I just disagree with the premise that a better deal is needed for the monthly CC grants to subs. I think the 600 or so, that I get for being a subscriber plus authenticator (key fob yo!) is a decent enough bonus when you look at what you're limited to without a sub.
And the beauty of it for the business side of it, is that then subscribers are hand-held into the theme of By-the-way-just-how-many-cartel-coins-DO-you-want-each-month-anyway ? I really think a large number of people would upgrade their subscription, at this rate I'd probably go Tier 1... as it is now, I'm never going to buy Cartel Coins from the website or in-game ever again.I sub'd at release and quit after about 2 or so months. Just coming back to check it again out now and the only things I've felt compelled to buy from the market are the cargo hold/backpack upgrades, the combat respec and the rocket booster (because rocket booster!). That said, I guess I just don't share your contempt for the market. If there was something there that I'd get a kick out of and just couldn't live without, I'd open up my wallet for it. It's not that I think your plan is bad, but rather, I don't see the need for the extra coins just for being a sub.
Overkill much?
in General Discussion
Posted
Did you intend for that to be ironic? Happy accident?
Or are you just forum pvp'ing? I'll move along if this thread is just a time-waster on your lunch break or something similar.