Gornish
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Posts posted by Gornish
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Force Ball
in PvP
Different classes have different advantages.The point of this whole thread... guess you're just master of the obvious.
Mercs are not the best for mobility and ranged interrupts. If all you care about are mobility and ranged interrupts, play another AC. It only take a week or two to reach level 50 and at 50 it take less than two weeks to replace all your gear with epic quality centurion or champion as long as you do your pvp dailies.
Wait, so you're saying that instead of making a simple change to balance a WZ which favors classes with inherent mobility changing skills. Such as causing the ball to drop if you leap/ally pull, just as it happens with you stealth and how stealth opponents can't catch the ball...
You want him to reroll to a Force Using class that has the mobility and all of those advantages... Not sure you're helping your point much here.
Please play a class that fit your play style. Please don't try to force the same abilities to all ACs. Most of us actually like the diversity
No one is trying to force all classes to have the same abilities. In fact it wouldn't change any of the class abilities period. It would just change the Huttball mechanic so that people would actually have to utilize ball carrier support and -passing the ball- more frequently in order to score. Go figure.
You are talking about immortal juggernauts.
None of the other force users can do this. None.
Point being no other class can do this. Last time I checked Juggernauts/Guardians were Force Users...
Different ACs have different abilities. Different pros and cons. Mercs are perfectly viable and a very popular and successful AC in SWTOR WZs... but if ALL YOU WANT is a class that can force leap, force push and force leap again - then you should probably reroll to a Juggernaut (and then come back to the forums and QQ that your class is useless in void star and civil war...)
Again, you're just proving the point that class abilities factor into how successful you are in each type of WZ. And Jugg/Guard are hardly useless in civil war or voidstar. Considering point guarding and door defense are a huge part of both of those games.
Re powertechs: Personally I think grapple is one of the strongest abiliites in hutt ball when you want to steal the ball from the enemy.
Grapple was strong when
A) Nobody was 50
B) 50's queued with people under L50
C) When you could insta kill people by pulling them across the goal line preventing them from scoring.
D) Your opponent has no Expertise or the Enemy team has 0 healers.
So either you regularly play against badly geared opponents or *******.
Here is an example how I scored yesterday using it: ....
....
So... i "death grip" him up to the fire trap close to their goal. Walk over to "their" side of the trap while still up on the ramp. Enemy ball carrier land just as the fire come on. I stun him. Attack him while he burn. Ball get transfered to me. I walk down the ramp and score.
Thank you for proving my point. You play against *******. Anyone with a Modicum of sense and experience in Huttball knows to throw the ball away to reset it if you're near your own goal line.
In fact you can still throw the ball away while being Gripped in...
I would not have been able to do that without "death grip". Bounty hunters are not force users - and they get it as default. They can also spec into 15 sec cd "force leap". One of the best ACs for hutt ball if you ask me. And its not a force user.
Jedi Knights/Sith Warriors get this at L2 (Just in case it wasn't obvious enough for you I'm referring to the part in Italics and Bold)
Which is HUGE in hutt ball. HUGE!
Sadly, the quote feature doesn't quote the quote you quoted, but I do like how you left out the second part where your partial immunity still leaves you vulnerable to Force Choke/Whirlwind, Stun, etc.
It is easy to avoid being knocked down from the ramp when the inquisitor come. It is almost impossible to avoid being knocked down from the ramp when a merc push you away.
Both are as easily avoidable or unavoidable depending where you are along the Huttball map. The both have virtually identical effect details (code) in the action part of the skill.
The Merc Knockback knocks you back a little farther while being a smaller radius.
The Major difference is the animation and firing times of the skill. Sage/Sorc fires it off with a longer delay than Merc does. Which, if you learn how to pay attention to your animation/activation times you can easily compensate for.
Example: As a Merc I would wait for the Fire Pit to die out and for the opponent to cross before firing off my Jet Boost. As a Sage I would activate Overload just as the Fire Pit dies out and as they begin to cross. Both knockbacks would send the ball carrier back across the Fire Pit or into the Pit.
All the "nerf tracer missiles!" topics out there disagree with you
Are you really trying to use the number of forum complaints about tracer missile as a basis for fact...
When a great majority of these are from people under L50 with no expertise.
Oh wait, let me go make 100 forum complaints about how Ship Robot Companions are to OP and need to be nerfed... that will totally make it true.
Arsenal Mercs are a joke..., 1 interrupt, los, cc, and they lose effectiveness. Any class that has to stand there and channel in order to do dmg is easily counterable, as long as your team isn't composed of
A) The Mentally Challenged
B) Trolls
C) Classes with no interrupts
D) People under L50 with no expertise.
Havnt seen many "nerf marauders", "nerf juggernauts" (except for smash - but rage spec does not really have the mobility or survivability you describe) or "nerf assassins" threads though... But there are a ton of "nerf operatives" and "nerf tracer missiles". Go figure.
Obviously, you don't check very much of the forums. Since I've seen a plethora of nerf Marauder, nerf Pyro Powertech, nerf Sorc, etc threads. I'm not saying that any of those threads are valid or not... but the point being is you're trying to use forum whining as a basis for fact... which it is not.
In the end all you've really done is help reinforce my point and the OP's point that Huttball favors force users.
I do enjoy the fact you didn't choose to reply to about 80% of my post, which must mean that you agree with it.
Which again, only helps to reinforce my point... thanks
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3 Month sub... stuck with it until then and of course when TERA beta isn't going on
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Force Ball
in PvP
With my Sorcerer I can support with healing or I can do damage, but I cant jump at all and my knockback is rather weak cause its hard to place, also I have no gap closer at all, if the enemy is gone, he is gone.
So no, huttball does NOT favor force classes.
Wait did they remove Force Sprint and Bubble while I was playing TERA beta over the weekend? No closers?
Did they take out the Sorc/Sage Pull which is one of the -most- powerful abilities for advancing the ball in Huttball?
If you think Sorc/Sage knockback is hard to place, you are either doing it wrong or playing against players who are -very- good at positioning themselves to prevent it. Which means 75% of the time you are doing it wrong since you can control the timing based on your animation.
For example: Sage the skill actually fires off at the end of the Sage animation. Which means if you wait on the fire side of a fire pit and fire off the skill as the fire dies and ball carrier begins to cross the majority of the time the skill will actually fire off as they get into range.
If you wait until after they are next to you, the animation will fire off -after- they have fired off their skill.
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Force Ball
in PvP
You mean Powertechs that grip+root people into fire/acid or down into the pit? Shieldtech Powertechs that can jet jump an opponent 30m away every 15 seconds or Advanced Prototype Powertech that can make themselves immune to knockback, snare and root (and boost their movement speed by 30%) for 8 seconds while walking with the ball?Or do you mean Mercenaries that can remove debuffs (such as snars, stuns, dots and roots) on a 4.5 sec cd plus having access to a pbaoe knockback + snare with a short 30 sec cd? Arsenal Mercenaris having a single target knockback and even stronger pbaoe knockback; both great for pushing people into pits or hazard zones. Bodyguard Mercenaries that can run and heal/self buff at the same time.
Or do you mean Snipers that have a ranged 2-5 sec root on a 12-15 sec cd, perfect for locking resolve immune ball carriers into fire as they walk over the trap and a powerful pbaoe knockback with 2-5 sec root on a 30 sec cd. Ranged execute, a 30 m range aoe mez on short cd, ranged interrupt? Marksmans got arguable the highest single target dps burst in the entire game - which is ranged to boot. Behind their cover they are also immune to force leap and grapple - and a lot of the time they are immune to knockbacks and all other form of cc as well.
I am sorry your tracer missile spam doesnt work as well in hutt ball as it does on void star, but that does not mean mercs need a buff or that hutt ball need to be re-designed... =)
Pretty sure the OP is a Merc Healer...
You realize your examples just exemplify the disparity right?
The whole Powertech Grip into Fire/Acid only worked in the days when people didn't have gear or pre-50. These days this tactic usually just ends up with the ball handler getting to advance the ball faster as the grip doesn't prevent them from taking action such as 'passing the ball' as Force Choke does.
Their leap while on a 15 sec cd, can't be used by anyone in cover and doesn't prevent them from being immediately cc'd right after. Where as, a force user can leap, reset the leap, leap again and if spec'd be immune to most cc's right after the leap.
Realistically, what Powertech goes Advanced Prototype? The vast majority are Pyro.
Even if they do, they gain 8 sec of push/snare/root immunity, yet are still vunerable to stun, whirlwind, force choke.
Mercenary's have a 4.5 cd cleanse as healers. This triggers a global cooldown. This is -not- a smart cleanse. With the amount of dots+debuffs on most ball carriers rarely does this cleanse actually cleanse what you want it to.
Merc's AoE knockback + snare is on a 30 sec cd. Inquisitor/Consular is on a 20 sec cd and for Sorc/Sage can be spec'd to root 2 sec of which is unbreakable unless you utilize your 2 min break on it. Then they also have stun, whirlwinds, and channeled snares...
Arsenal Merc's are a joke unless you are stacking their debuff with someone who can take advantage of it like a Arsenal Merc + Marauder or Arsenal + Assassin combo. Interrupt their channel or LoS it and laugh. Arsenal Mercs are perhaps the easiest class to deal with considering 90% of them don't know what to do when the 1 button stops working.
I won't go into Snipers as I have no experience with that class and can't say...
But based on what you've talked about thus far all you've done is just demonstrate the OP's point.
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Force Ball
in PvP
Your exaggeration is overpowered.Sadly, it's not. Sorry if you're playing with terrible Sages or Sorcs but a SorcSage + Jugg/Guardian or even a Sorc/Sage + Good Marauder/Sentinel will move the ball and score faster than most teams can counter them.
Add in Multiple Sorcs/Sages and the advantage gets even bigger.
If you fight any of these class comps with decent gear and a modicum of skill, they are going to score a far larger percent of the time then you will ever kill them.
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it doesnt matter since it takes 2 nights to get from valor1 to valor60 and then hope for BM tokens
Yes, If you're Republic farming on Ilum
Most Imp side servers you're lucky to see any Republic these days, as most have achieved their BM and have no reason to waste time in Ilum except to do their weekly on Tuesday.
Tuesday morning is usually a good time, after that it's dead for the week.
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While some of us who have been playing since Launch and been BM's for awhile still don't have a Champ weapon... go figure
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Force Ball
in PvP
nobody will deny the fact that some classes got advantage , but i can state to you , i dont lose to teams because they have this kind of trick , even if my team do not have one single person capable of such a feat , ofc , if my team is good.Wait... weren't you the one just arguing earlier in this thread that class doesn't matter in Huttball?
The reality that any non-force user has experienced is that certain force using classes have a far greater advantage in this WZ. Specifically because of the leap/forcepush/leap or pull your ally, abilities.
Yes, Player skill does become involve in winning Huttball, but with 2 teams of averagely skilled players the team with more of those particular force using classes is the team that is going to win.
Not to mention the fact that the Inquisitor AoE Knockback is on a 20 sec cool down compared to the BH which is on a 30 sec cool down and can often be spec'd to root in place afterwards so even if the knockback doesn't hit you off the platform it acts as an effective cc.
Add in Instant Whirlwind, Stun, Continuous Snares (We won't even go into Ablative bubbles, faster casting heals, etc) and you can see how quickly Force Using teams have an advantage.
There is a pair of 2 Force users Jugg/Sorc who almost never lose Huttball because of the leap+pull mechanic. Not to mention that you can spec into Unstoppable and be immune to control effects.
Knockback itself is a minor issue, since the majority of classes have the ability and smart players can position themselves to not get knocked off. It's the additional positional movement/changing skills that -most- Force Users bring to the table that creates an unfair advantage in Huttball, just by base design of the WZ mechanics.
I play a Sage... stop trying to pretend as if we don't have a huge advantage.
One person force leaps to an enemy up on the catwalk, one pass or pull across the fire, One force sprint jump clearing the other fire pit and you've just cake walked into the goal. This can happen in under 21 sec easily.
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I would love for the ball the drop if you are pulled by a teammate. One of the bigger flaws in the game.
It makes some classes more useful than others.
That's probably the biggest disparity between classes in Huttball... the fact Force Users have a distinct advantage over non-Force users because of these abilities. It's not as much of a factor in other WZ's but Huttball really exemplifies the difference between both.
There is a 'pass the ball' general skill for a reason and the pull/leap class skills trivialize the teamwork and utilizing the passing system itself.
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HELL NO! Do NOT allow for controlled 8v8 or even 4v4 pvp matches. This is *by far much too easy to abuse for farming purposes. All it would require is coordinated queuing so that people can quickly farm warzones. By forcing warzones to typically consist of 50% of the members being random, this helps counteract a lot of "arranged" warzones, preventing sides from taking turns on winning/losing purposely; although a potentially half-random team often cannot pull a victory currently, this at least typically results in warzones that were intended to end quickly taking MUCH LONGER than farm groups intend.
Though you do bring up a valid point in the fact some teams would use it to 'farm valor' the ability to coordinate queues if they implement the system correctly should be fairly difficult. Especially if they add in a forced randomized timer to the 8v8 bracket queue.
In any organized game there may be a sort of valor/honor/etc trading that occurs, but I think the bracket itself would be used to satisfy people who enjoy organized PvP groups far more than it would be used to farm valor.
Good point to bring up of course and glad to see a different perspective on the subject.
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There are some valid suggestions in this thread, however for huttball you are saying "passing" to mean using a movement skill to move through the obstacle correct?
Positional movement based on skills is what I was referring to, not to the passing skill inherent in the WZ itself.
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The problem with allowing group queues greater than 4 is that it puts those who are guildless or in small teams at a major disadvantage. As it is 4+randoms tend to usually teams of total randoms. Allowing 5+ team members would remove any incentive for casual or non-guilded players to spend any time PvPing.
If you read a little more closely you would see that 8v8 would be a completely separate bracket. So there would be no issue with organized teams 'rolling' over random groups.
There would still be a 50 Solo - 4 man bracket but an additional 8v8 bracket for those that like organized team play.
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Addendum: For Issues I did not cover in the original post
1. Group Queues
Currently the only option to group queue is a limit of up to 4 players in what are 8-11 (depending on how buggy the system is) teams. This often leaves that 4 man team frustrated because you are forced to rely on 4 random people who often are totally uncoordinated.
Admittedly, I have won with a team of random pugs, as well as, beat teams with 4 man groups, but more often then not the 4 man groups or a team with 2 4 man groups is going to win.
However, the inability to rely on all of your team members to coordinate often makes for a frustrating game. Let alone, those who join the game just to sit there afk to gain credit.
Solution 1: Create a separate bracket for 8v8. Just as there is a separate level bracket for 50's. There should be a bracket in which 8v8 teams can play. This would create a more competitive atmosphere for those who want that PvP element, but still allow those who more casually PvP in WZ's the chance to do.
Solution 2: Create new WZ's for a 4v4 bracket.
Solution 3: Create more incentive to world PvP both in Ilum and on Tatooine. This can be done a number of ways which I will address in a separate topic.
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As we all know SW:TOR has a number of issues and complaints when it comes to how PvP has been implemented by the Development team. In this thread I will attempt to address the majority of those issues and give suggestions on how to fix them to improve the PvP system.
This thread is -NOT- a class balance thread but a thread that address the WZ, PvP, and PvP rewards system itself.
1. PvP Reward system.
No one enjoys RNG rewards system for pvp in a subscription based game. RNG rewards systems really fit into PvE or F2P rewards systems because it encourages players to revisit a dungeon/raid or spend more money at a cash shop. This usually means that people become more invested in the game, their character, and thus earns the game more money.
However, RNG rewards systems for PvP generally do the opposite. Why is this? Because in PvP the largest complaint for people is -unfairness- or -imbalance-. What is more frustrating then watching your buddy who has pvp all of 100 matches get all of his RNG bag pieces when you've been grinding WZ's for weeks and have 3 pieces or repeats over and over.
Solution 1: Remove the RNG Bag system completely. Make the Champion and Battlemaster gear cost a set amount of commendations just as the Centurion gear does and a set reward for each win/loss.
Solution 2: Leave in RNG Bags but make them drop a single generic Champ/BM token that can be used to trade for any piece of that respective gear. This eliminates the largest issue of people stuck with repeat items over and over.
Solution 3: Leave in RNG Bags but change their drop to a random commendation bonus and change the Champion and Battlemaster gear to set commendations just as the Centurion gear is.
2. Cost of PvP Rewards for lower levels
Originally all gear cost the same amount but the cost for gear was much lower than it currently is allowing those who were leveling up a reasonable chance to be able to earn and purchase gear, without spending an inordinate amount of time pvping to get it.
Since the inflation in PvP gear cost 580 for all weapons for example, it really makes the less likely that any lower level players are going to spend time grinding WZ's when they can replace all those mods with better crafted/quest related ones more easily.
Since that gear becomes less likely to be purchased it loses a big part of it's function and kind of raises the question of 'why even have it in the game?'
Solution 1: Scale the cost of PvP gear based on level.
Solution 2: Remove L20 and L40 PvP gear rewards.
Solution 3: Remove the L20 and L40 PvP gear rewards and change it to appropriate Modifaction rewards instead. So that PvP commendations can be used as an alternative/supplement to gaining gear modification from Planetary commendations.
3. Resolve
I think by now most people understand how resolve is -supposed to work. However, the mechanic by which it works while great in theory is kind of terrible in practice. I can be knocked back, whirl winded, have a full resolve bar and then be forced choked 2x in a row. (Yes, this has actually happened to me in a WZ)
The system mechanic -feels- so arbitrary to many players because it differentiates between the types of cc (Crowd Control). Since there is no way to determine which one has filled your resolve bar or allow you to gain resolve to the other types of cc while your bar is full it creates a confusing and often frustrating system for those pvping. This is most often felt in -Huttball-.
Solution 1: Change Resolve to one standard system. So knock backs, stuns, roots/immobilizes, etc all fill 1 bar and grant global immunity.
Example: 3 cc's of any type would fill the Resolve bar and grant immunity to all cc until the bar has dissipated.
Solution 2: Change how the cc breaking skill works (Force of Will for Sages for example). Have the cc breaking skill granted 3 secs of cc immunity. Though this wouldn't address the inherent flaw in the current Resolve system it would at least provide a cushion of immunity to counter the various ways Resolve fails to grant cc immunity.
Solution 3: Add in a Resolve reactionary skill. This would probably be the most complex way to fix the issue of the 3 but is a possible solution.
To do this you would need to incorporate separate Resolve bars for each type.
So that players could see the Stun Resolve Bar, Root/Immobilize Resolve Bar, etc.
Players would then have a -choice- to activate Resolve when they wanted but have to choose between which type they wanted immunity from.
Example: Stun Resolve is 2/3 full. Root/Immobilize Resolve is full. Player choose to activate Resolve clearing all bars and and granting them Root/Immobilize immunity but knowing they are still vulnerable to stuns.
4. Warzones
As it stands each WZ has a few glaring flaws. Some are due to classes and skills available to those classes and some are just flaws in the design itself. I will try to address the design of the WZ itself without getting into specific class issues.
A. Huttball
Our favorite WZ to love to hate. Every Imperial player that queues knows this WZ well. Despite all the ways to -cheat- in Huttball, just remember you can't kick the ball.
Issues that currently exist with Huttball really comes down to team imbalance due to what classes exist on which team. I think most of us give a sigh of relief if we queue with a team that has 3+ Sorcs/Sages (L50) and often give a little groan if our team is full of Bounty Hunters/Troopers with nary a Sorc/Sage in sight.
Really what this amounts to is that certain classes have movement/position affecting skills which others lack. This means any coordinated team that has more of that class is always going to be at an advantage over a team that randomly gets queued without that class.
Obviously, trying to class balance a WZ team is a pretty fruitless way to go about it. So instead here are some alternative solutions.
Solution 1: Change any movement/position changing skill cause the ball to drop. Similar to how stealthing for Ops/Assassins drops the ball any leap, pull, etc would cause the ball to reset to center. This solution would make team work a much more essential part of Huttball as to advance the ball would focus the team on supporting the ball carrier or passing to advance the ball over having 1 or 2 players be able to advance the ball without any team support.
Solution 2: Cause passing through/over obstacles to cause the same amount of damage as walking over/into the obstacle. This solution would not address the position adjustments such as leaping to people on the ledge above the pit, but would at least make it impossible to directly bypass the map obstacles such as poison pit and fire.
Solution 3: Retool the Huttball map by making it longer and adding more obstacles. This would still allow positional class skills to affect play, but would prevent 2 players of a specific class of easily scoring just seconds after gaining possession of the ball, by use of pull then force sprint jumping.
B. Voidstar
Beyond the obvious exploits that are known and being addressed, such as early door planting before the game starts or stealth classes planting from inside the door, there is only 1 major issue that I currently see with Voidstar.
That is the flight time it takes for the first defending team to reach the starting area. It takes approximately 41 seconds to fly from the back of the map to the defender starting area. This means anyone who joins the WZ queue later in the timer countdown is often stuck flying on the speeder as the game starts.
Even if you added a speeder flight time for the second defending team it wouldn't fix that potential imbalance.
Solution 1: I really only see 1 solution to this issue. Remove that starting team speeder flight. It is completely unnecessary to the game.
C. Civil War
The biggest issue that anyone with any sense of tactics knows is that taking the outside points is the most important part of this WZ. Since the outside speeders allow you to quickly zerg back to the point 2 to 3 defenders can prevent the enemy tapping any outside point for the entire game. (I have done this with 3 players at lvl 11-13 zerging back and keeping a 6 man group of 40's from tapping)
Solution 1: Remove the outside speeders completely. This would create a central point and make holding the center point a much more vital part of the game.
Solution 2: Move back the landing point for the outside speeders. Instead of landing right next to the point. Have them land behind the tower or further back, approximately the same distance away as the central flight point. This would allow quick defense but prevent the easy zerg back that currently exists.
Thus concludes my address of the current pvp system. I thought about addressing the open world pvp issues but I'm going to leave that for another post. Any constructive thoughts, input are welcome.
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Left and Right are static positions on the map...
Always judge it based on facing out from your spawn point.
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Force Users vs non-Force Users + Resolve
... enough said.
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If you like standing in place being a turret BH missile spam is the dps for you.
If you like being mobile and more active, then go Marauder.
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Just curious what other merc PvP healers favor in terms of secondary stats.
Alacrity
Crit
Surge
Power
Obviously, each has their use and currently I'm favoring an Alacrity + Crit build with some surge mixed in. I've only seen 1 other decent merc pvp healer in the geared 50 brackets but I'm sure there are more hiding out there.
Edit: Also if you could list what percentages your stats are at it would help me get a better feel for what people are favoring.
All constructive input is welcome.
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I would say about a 3/10
1. Complete imbalance in number of cc's available to various classes.
Right now Force users rule the cc category. In games where cc/gimmick is heavy *cough* Huttball *cough* generally teams with more Force users is going to win (Unless of course they are FMC (Free Mercenary Commendations) or Feral Uprising.
2. The current way Resolve functions.
With the plethora of cc's available Resolve quickly fills little to no purpose. Especially, when you can still be knocked back or pulled with a full resolve bar up. Resolve needs to be standardized for -all- forms of cc onto 1 resolve bar. Adjust the resolve that cc's give so that 3 or 4 cc's will fill up the bar.
3. Huttball - This game is terrible. This game has very little to do with any sort of pvp skill/ability and relies completely on gimmicks. Whoever designed this game should be fired, shot, and have their fingers chopped off so they can never touch pvp again.
4. Ilum - Open world pvp that was promised is for the most part people just sitting and trading base points. It suffers the same issues that WAR did in that points are flipped back and forth since there is no benefit to actually killing enemy players.
5. FFA Zone - No one goes there. There is no incentive to go there. It is on Tatooine... nobody goes there.
6. You can't queue with more than 4 people. Sometimes your 4 man team ends up on opposite sides. Which leads into...
7. WZ Team balance issues. Multiple matches where one team has more than 8 players. While the other team has less then the allotted number of players. The system ends up giving one side bonus players for no reason.
8. WZ crash to character select bug or desktop crash bug.
9. Disparity between Melee and ranged damage. Right now except for the Powertech Fire spec, and Operative's 5k+ backstab Melee are really forced into 1 spec and are pretty lackluster.
10. Plethora of individual class issues... to many to address here.
Edit: Forget to mention little/low commendations for healers in WZ. I've healed in pvp for a long time and enjoy it. However, like most games SW:TOR gives healers very little way to merit commendations past the first 4 or 5. Where as the Sorc/Op/etc I am following around nets an avg of 9+ every game.
HuttBall 101 - A Player Guide
in PvP
Posted