Laylyn
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Posts posted by Laylyn
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You should be able to defeat a fresh 50 because of your experience and skill, not because of some gear advantage. This is PvP, not PvE. Ideally, all would have the same gear, allowing for fair matches.
This would be the correct answer.
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When will you guys (Bioware) realise that having a pvp stat that is implemented in the way it is now is a bad model for pvp? For pve it is fine to have a gear-progression that makes you more effective, since if you decide to not log in for a week the pve NPCs will not gear up and kick your arse next time you play. For pvp though, this system simply enforces a grinding race before you can start having fun with the game. On top of that, the RNG factor of what your team/opponents have in terms of gear makes this system very bad and unenjoyable.
Look at all major sport and e-sport competitions where the participants have the best gear available so that the matches revolve around their skills and tactics. Do you think anyone would want to watch any match where one team has a vast advantage over the other simply because of gear? If no, what makes you think that this is fun for the actual participants to do so (other than the ones that can grind faster than the rest)?
TLDR normalise either all stats or at least expertise for instanced pvp and come up with a different reward system that does not affect combat. This will also allow you to have a much better grip with the cross-class balance in WZs and implement the needed changes in relation to the desired TTK.
I would not mind seeing one type of gear only, if its equal for both pve and pvp. I played Vanilla wow, I don't want to see this game de-evolve into one where raid teams come in, with awful tactics, smashing people (1 raider vs 3 pvpers who can't kill them), and auto win due to the stupidly overpowered raid gear.
Sadly, most of the politics for no expertise in the game, on these forums, are for that vanilla wow advantage. Ideally, gear should be a non factor. It should be so in warzones and world pvp.
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Ah guess i misread you're post, my apologizes then, and ya faster ques are nice
Word, I was tired of dead ques myself prior to this patch. I even went back and added approx. prime time averages to that post.
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You're ques got longer when ppl came back for 1.2? i think you're the first, sorry to hear it...
Nope, they started to go twice as quick and they've been running faster than the month prior to 1.2 ever since. I had meant longer than the were the first month of the game.
They had been up to 20 minutes during prime time prior to 1.2. They run about 5 now. During launch they'd que every 2 minutes on even the Imperial side (Blue side was instant then).
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My issue is fact that I dont see this TTK issue. Sure, healers were nerfed, god-mode turned off, some of them rage-quitted or rage-rerolled/specced, there is less healers in WZ, people die faster. But when you were focused by 3 dps before 1.2 you were toast if you were not guarded, enemies not taunted and healer didnt take care of you. Now - you are toasted more or less the same. People ARE throwing TTK out of their butts, this is the problem here.
Seriously, what has changed besides healers nerf?
1,76% increased damage thanks to expertise change?
Damage buff to 1 (one) marauder ability (if said marauder is anninhilation ofc, most of them are)?
Bugged heatseekers (which was fixed now)?
What else increased damage so much? Oh I think I know what else has changed. Instead of being full BM with 700 expertise against people with 0-300, even fresh lev 50 now have 900 against your 1200. So, maybe gear gap was partialy closed + less healers = faster kills?
Basicaly, when I read those TTK threads and later play some WZ I seriously dont know what are you people talking about.
Equalization created an environment some people don't like. Not everyone practices sportsmanship or wants a fair game.
Some want to hide behind gear. Some want to hide behind broken, imbalanced mechanics that steer people toward the favored classes and the favored specs.
Those players are now faced with the environment they created for their opponents when the mechanics were more broken. Fixing the current resolve issues will create the same scream fest from those that benefited most.
The "I get sixty individual kills farming, while the entire other team got 2 total" war zones was only causing the newer players to quit. We have longer ques now and they just kept getting longer prior to 1.2. Now with recruit gear and some newer players having a chance we might keep the pvp current base or actually increase it.
Time will tell.
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Are you seriously trying to glorify a two dimensional pvp system that revolves entirely around burst dps classes? The reason there were low kills before was a mixture of- extremely low burst classes, and bad players.
If you had good players playing burst classes pre-1.2, combat was still fast paced. The healer/tank teams only managed to stump played with no comprehension on CC, interrupts- who were also in bad gear/bad players/classes with no burst.
If all classes could compete with marauders in terms of burst/pressure, then even pre-1.2 healing would still be far too weak. However, when you look at sorc burst and see the abiilty to crit over 2.5k once every 15 seconds- and average tics under 1k- from their perspective 1.2 was nowhere near enough to make them viable in killing a team with a single healer.... while marauders can take out half a team of healers.
It's problematic that some dps ACs will still face healers and find them untouchable, while others currently find them a breeze barely worth noting- healers should be as valuable as any other player.
The expertise change is minimal. As noted here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=423665
They adjusted the attack to defense numbers to deal with the way damage is calculated and then mitigated. Prior to 1.2 you got too much of a expertise defensive boost, which was further aggravated by healing stats that have no real mitigation in game.
There are other tricks people are using to inflate damage as noted in © of Georg's post here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=4066157#edit4066157 People have been stacking things like that since TOR's beta. The truth is it was far worse in the past.
This need to be Superman in a pvp environment is a symptom of players getting used to an old WOW stat called resilence, that mitigated vanilla WOW's obsession with burst, and as an unintended consequence, made healing king because there was no heal counter that was perpetual the way the resilence stat was.
It made 80% healing teams common in BGS in WOW, especially during the endless mana days of WOTLK. It made the same kinds of teams or healer / mitigation teams common here.
It also made something else common here. It's called focusing fire on targets and mass debuffing them, which is what George was talking about in (d) of that post.
In a paper, rocks, scissors match up, burst dps and debuffs is the only way to drop tank protected healers. Your listed marauders example above has to do with a class doing what it is designed to do.
Further, they probably did it with support. Marauder's class type has had to use support since launch...
Prior to 1.2, there were situations were people would focus fire on individuals, 4 v 1 and still not drop them. That silly version of the game is what most people are crying about wanting here.
P.S. In your pre 1.2 healer take down strat, the opposing team's healers just have to hit one button to remove the CC. Trust me, as someone who mains on healers, I can keep fighting until you are OOM easy with just one or two healers as backup. The inclusion of pvp viable tanks in this game has made it even easier than any game before it.
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I know there are many other threads with this information, but I am going to try to explain as simply as I can for those that can't seem to grasp it. PLEASE read this if you are one of those that believes expertise is the reason DPS is now so much stronger and heals weaker.
Before 1.2 was released, expertise had a 1-1-1 ratio between Bonus DMG, Mitigation, and Healing.
So in full BM, the percentages were around 12% (it was over 12% but I cant remember the exact number, around 12.45% i believe...but lets just say 12%)
**PAY ATTENTION** The main thing you have to understand when looking at these numbers is that Bonus DMG and Mitigation did NOT cancel each other out exactly even though the percentages are the same. Bonus DMG is added BEFORE mitigation takes effect. Lets look at an example of pre 1.2 expertise:
Assuming full Battlemaster gear, you were at 12% bonus dmg, 12% mitigation, and 12% healing.
ATTACKER does 2000 dmg to DEFENDER
First you have to add in the 12% bonus damage, which works out to be 2240 so:
ATTACKER does 2240 dmg to DEFENDER
**PAY ATTENTION**Next step. 12% Mitigation takes effect for the DEFENDER so:
ATTACKER does 1972 dmg to DEFENDER
As you can see, pre 1.2 expertise scaling was actually reducing damage done.
Now for the changes introduced in 1.2
With full Battlemaster gear you are at: 22% bonus dmg, 18% mitigation, and 12% healing
At first glance it looks like damage got a 4% buff and healing stayed the same. This is not the case as I will show you in this next example:
ATTACKER does 2000 dmg to DEFENDER
First you have to add in the 22% bonus damage, which works out to be 2440 so:
ATTACKER does 2440 dmg to DEFENDER
**PAY ATTENTION**Next step. 18% Mitigation takes effect for the DEFENDER so:
ATTACKER does 2001 dmg to DEFENDER
As you can see, the changes in 1.2 make it so mitigation is now fully canceling out bonus dmg.
So if you look at the last line in our example:
Pre 1.2
ATTACKER does 1972 damage to DEFENDER
Currently
ATTACKER does 2001 dmg to DEFENDER
That is a grand total of 29 more damage with a 2000 dmg attack. That works out to be a 1.45% increase to damage from pre 1.2 to 1.2.
Oh i almost forgot about healing changes:
Assuming full BM
Pre 1.2: 12% bonus healing
1.2: 12% bonus healing
Nothing changed
When people start getting war hero gear, DMG and Mitigation will still cancel each other out, but healing will grow to over 13%. That is over a 1% increase to healing... about the same buff DMG got with the 1.2 changes... hmm go figure.
Dear mods, sticky this please.
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Well that entirely depends on what you class as "quickly" eh.
Dieing in the space of 2-3 global cooldowns is what I'd call overkill, unless there are 4 or more DPSers.
So you basically want to be a raid boss monster in a pvp zone?
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Does 2 players bursting you down in under 10 seconds whilst you have full BM gear sound like genius or skill to you? Are we even playing the same game?
Don't get me wrong when I'm with my Guardian friend, I can do exactly the same, but it's certainly not skilled and it's most definitely not fun. I actually feel sorry for the people we focus especially if there are more than 2 of us, and no it doesn't take any skill at all.
3 DPS on 1 player is a joke now. It's pretty much an instant kill - again does that sound like genius or skill to you when you can potentially have 8 DPS in a WZ? Focusing people just exacerbates the TTK issue.
Do you honestly think three people focus fire dpsing on a toon shouldn't kill the toon quickly?
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I didn't say that. I'm talking about the TTK, not the "how long can I heal and keep myself and everyone else alive". Take healers out of the picture for a second, and think back to those fights pre 1.2 where it was just DPS vs DPS. The TTK was fine, you had time to play strategically and use cooldowns intelligently. Games and duels would come down to the ones who made the least mistakes. Now it's a game of "how fast can't I hit all my big moves and kill the other person". My defensive cooldowns will no longer change the tide of most fights as they simply cannot compete with the burst people are putting out now, they just seem to prolong my impending doom.
So of course I don't want things to go back to the way they were entirely, healers absolutely needed nerfing. But there was absolutely no valid reason to increase the burst and thus shorten the TTK. None at all. All it does is shorten the window for any kind of real tactical gameplay.
Your logic has unintended results you wont like then. Healers quietly benefit the most from what you are talking about. We are talking about healing as in, WOW style, post resilence starting with the BC era. That era when blizzard moved from burst crit to a system that allowed players to spam heals endlessly by WOTLK.
It created a time when the BGs would be filled with 80% or more healers. It was just like this game was on many servers pre 1.2.
Blizzard's stupid mistake in game design grew an entire generation to think easy mode spam classes, with endless mana reserves, was some kind of intelligent fighting style. Spamming isn't tactical. It is straight up Corky.
The news flash for the average player is simple. Toons are not supposed to be Superman.
Marines do real life tactical fighting in the span of an eye blink. This long, boring dance people are talking about isn't pvp, it is a practiced dance of cool downs and mana reserves that certain specs and classes will simply do better than others, further complicated by gear issues.
Your request eventually makes cookie cutter pvp. Something that a 9 year old kid can copy and do just as well as you can. Does that really sound like genius or skill to you?
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I was PvP'ing after the patch, we won some, we lost some, but in each WZ it was the same - burst or be burst, no middle ground or strategy at all, just people bursting people down as quickly as possible.
Everyone I speak to in my guild, or on the republic fleet, all think that the time-to-kill is far too short. The only reason people are still pvp'ing is because they have a better chance at getting gear now with the increased rewards, or just because they have nothing better to do, not because they actually enjoy it. I actually think most people are under the delusion that when they get full BM gear things will get better, but alas they will not. The TTK is still just as short with full BM gear as it is with full Recruit gear.
You've turned PvP into a twitchy mess Bioware, I really don't understand your reasoning for this? Not one person I've spoken too has been able to come up with a logical reason for you wanting to take the strategic gameplay out of PvP. I hardly think this was a mistake, for some bizarre reason you actually thought people would enjoy a more twitch based experience, which just proves how out of touch you are with your target audience and how utterly dyer your metrics are.
I know you think that us forum dwellers are the vocal minority Bioware, but I promise you this, the feeling is mutual with the majority of non-forum dwellers within game, I can assure you. Just because people are PvP'ing at the moment does not mean that they are enjoying these changes and lack of strategy brought with 1.2
Your only hope at saving PvP and not losing a massive chunk of your subscribers, is either to reduce burst, or make our health pools larger to cope with the incoming burst and then readjust healing to match the larger health pools. I see no other way you can fix this mess you've created.
That is all.
So you want a return to tank / healer matches with 3 kills for an entire team? It is a pvp match not a raiding boss fight.
If you want really crappy, made for toddlers, pve style BGs, maybe your guild should go back to WOW. Just saying, that style of game exists and if the player base here wanted that, they'd be playing that instead of reading these forums.
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Sorry mate. While I agree that we should all be equal, gear progression is NOT a failure.
As bad as people think WoW was/is it was actually a huge success.
It was so much of a success that as they followed that philosophy they had to hide their number losses from WOTLK on. Blizzard actually resorted to padding their numbers with 5.5 million Chinese accounts and untold trial accounts that didn't actually pay subscriptions as many of their servers literally became ghost towns on both sides...
Oh wait... That does sounds like Fail...
Then again their Kung Foo Panda / Pokemon expansion will fix it. That will work to bring the numbers by focus expansion content on young kids who don't pay for games...
Oh wait... That does sounds like Fail...
Well obviously WOW was so successful you are playing that instead of reading the forums here...
Oh wait...
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Having PvP be about the gear instead of the player is the biggest failure done to pvp by so many mmo's, and it will be the failure to swtor if they don't change it.
Bioware listen, gear is about customization and looks. The ability to customize your character to fit your exact play style and looks, your game is setup to do that with all the gear that is editable.
The second you introduce disparity in your gear with stats like Expertise, is the second you tell your players that it doesn't matter how well or poorly they play, it only matters how long they grind. That's just stupid and an insult to the people that want to actually play the game, not just have the power to faceroll newbies because their gear allows them to compensate for lack of any type of actual skill or effort.
Any real PvPer will tell you that they'd rather PvP stark-naked than allow a disparity gap be created from poorly implemented PvP gear!
I agree with that.
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Tonight, we had our third incident of people in our guild taking what happens in the warzone personally and the second time we've lost a guild member because of it. With the Rep vs Rep gameplay and because we have more than 4 players interested in PVP'ing, we sometimes have guild members end up on opposite sides in the same match. This In-Faction PVP needs to be seriously re-thought.
In a PVP match, emotions will always run high, often higher than high-end PVE. It's one thing to die to some nameless individual from the other side, whom you may never see again. It is something entirely different to die to someone that you not only know, but you interact with on a regular basis. Deaths from the same person probably happens the same amount with or without a guild member on the opposing side, but the perception that the person is singling you out may seem more apparent because you know them.
Republic versus Republic PVP is counter-intuitive and destructive to both morale and to camaraderie. It has so far also been destructive to our guild. We should be working together, NEVER working against each other. These issues I mention go even further when guildmates are opposed. Huttball is a "game" in title only as there are deaths involved.
Bioware, for the good of all guilds in the game, please remove In-Faction PVP. We've lost two great members because of it and I am getting to a point where I will start pushing my guildmates to boycott Huttball altogether until it stops.
It is just war games. Police and military commands improve by using non lethal versions of this.
How are you ever going to help your crew improve if you can't evaluate their performance in a cross setting? It's one of my toolsets for seeing if a player is performing correctly on a map.
This is one of my guild's favorite parts of the game. They get to kill the boss from time to time.
Perhaps you and your team needs to work on their sportsmanship and sense of humor. We call such situations practice and stress release.
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Guild Wars 2 will do the best job yet and the other games will rapidly copy it if successful. That's one of the reasons world pvp currently sucks. Massive gear and class imbalances were the result of WOW cloning across the market for years...
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You got that backwards. PvPers don't care about gear. The people that take gear so seriously are PvE-minded players that fancy themselves awesome PvPers when they gib some poor 12k hp sorcerer.
This answer, exactly.
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It's WOW with lightsabers.
SWG is now dead, I sensed it's coming like a deer senses a brush fire. It's very sad times for me. And not just about SWG.
It's about the death of real MMO gaming like we old timers once knew and loved-- sandbox style where the sky was the limit, battles were epic and the shims were half naked. Now everything has to be easy mode or the subscription base drops off. It's the same pattern game after game and these software developers still are as blind as a bat.
Huge amount joins, huge amount complains, huge nerfs, subscriptions plummet, game goes free to play-- developers start from scratch again.
When are they going to learn? Probably never as long as the profit bubbles still keep coming. There's a market for a good MMO sandbox game with a modern combat engine but I doubt very much if the market will ever see it. Why?
Because the majority of players today are entitlement kids who want much and care little to earn anything. They want to win, but don't want to risk losing. They want greatness but refuse to accept consequence. They want PVP but only as another loot grind.
I face the same problem even within my own guild. The only focus is that next purple loot item, or their gear score, not the bigger picture, or having true influence in a long term game.
:Sigh:
It make me want to go back to playing Pong sometimes. At least in that game theres no loot to squabble over.
I find your lack of vision, disturbing. Here are 3 games you should see then if you are looking for a long term effect with your guild in something else.
Sandbox: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12_WbBLIAus&feature=player_embedded
Mass pvp:
Massive character control:
SWTOR will grow just as every game does. No launch is ever perfect and this one was decent.
People are quick to forget we started SWG with sad armor and sad weapons in its early days. WOW's horde content sucked for the first year, though paradoxically that first year was the best one for world pvp.
With gaming, it is always better to look ahead than behind. Players play the games they do for those they fight alongside and against. It is the communities that make or the lack of them that breaks games.
Communities are separate animals from forums however. It's always a matter of those who make a difference in a game over post count. The WOW generation never grasped that completely.
The main issue for this game is that most players think in terms of one character. This game was designed for people to have several. There actually can't be a faction imbalance if people everyone is playing both sides the way the devs intended.
It will mostly balance itself out in time. In the meantime, the game is what you make of it...
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GW2 equal playing field idea is actually pretty cool. Gear grinds are boring and and suck when you are first starting and get steamrolled by people with better gear.
Skill and teamwork are what make PvP and MMOs in general fun, not chasing a "carrot on a stick".
I think this is well stated. I'd add that it makes it easier for guilds and guild alliances to run together as well when you don't end up with the wow gear grind factor.
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When the competetive elements of this game wants gear progression and character advancement it's because "we want to be carried by gear".
Whereas causals feel they should have a clear progression path all the way up to the best gear for little to no effort.
Why can't us hardcore players have something to work for that actually takes effort and teamplay to get? I want to feel i earned the gear, not getting it handed to me by merely participating in PvP.
Sure competition is it's own reward, which btw is why i'm still racking up lots of games daily even though there is no tangible reward in it for me except more titles. But just as the causals want gear progressions, so do we. Even if the gap is a small one like champ to bm gear, it's still nice to have stuff to look forward too.
Ranked players will spend most of their time in ranked warzones so it's not like we will spend all out time ganking you in non ranked.
The game was built with a leveling curve that allowed casual players to make 50 in a month. The part you are missing in your arguments is that you are thinking this is a game to focus on only one toon. This isn't Aion where it takes 6-9 months for the average player to get to top level, then even longer to equip.
"Hardcore" would be Battle Master on multiple toons in this game. Otherwise, you are only a casual player.
If you are endlessly running around on one toon, you are kind of missing the point. In a game like this one, "Hardcore" would be an expert at multiple pvp play styles.
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I'm literally talking you get your full BM set in the mail when you hit 50.
I consider myself a competent PvPer. A lot of people in MMO's these days, however, seem to think that time invested in PvP should get you better gear, to show how good you are. This is a FLAWED argument. IMO, you should not be given -better- gear if you are a -better- pvper. Better PvPers should win through skill, not gear.
I'm happy with how the Valor system will work. Aesthetic rewards for PvPers, but keeping the gear level within attainable reach for -anyone- who wants to PvP. This way, we'll see players rise to the top because of skill, and not because of their glowing items.
I'd prefer to see a skill based game. Gear advantages are for the weak.
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just curious how many servers can actually have a decent rated wz without cross, mines far from it
You'd have to have cross server to have rated. Otherwise, you just have win trading for top ranks.
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You see, this is typical of people with an agenda. Where in my post did I say you should be able to kill someone in a 4 second window?
I said that 6-7K damage in 3 GCD's is not burst against 20K health. A 4.5 second "burst" that reduces the targets health by 30% is not "burst." Burst classes should be able to open with an attack that takes at least 20% of your health by itself, then work up to their 6-7K burst.
Sorry, but if you think any class hits hard in this game you need to play some other games. Hell, in Rift there were classes that could ramp up to an 80% health burst. I'm not saying I want that since that's way too far to the opposite extreme, but this idea that a class being able to burst you down to half health in 5 seconds is excessive just makes me laugh. Someone needs to be able to pressure healers because, as it is, the only way to pressure them at all is to focus fire them.
My Sin is the squishiest class in the game when she's in Deception. This is a fair trade-off IF you have the ability to lay out a strong damage burst and pressure healers. It's NOT a fair trade off if you're just a squishy sustained damage class with interrupts, especially since the huge amount of CC in this game absolutely precludes you being able to actually sustain damage.
I would actually like to see much higher lethality, for all classes. That's every archtype, in every build, with every level of gear.
Every class should be able to melt someone in 3-4 seconds, with guard and heals only able to add 1-2 seconds max. That's even 1-2 seconds max with 7 people healing you.
We're all using some of the most powerful weapons of the future. Anyone else think its odd that hit like marshmellows?
I'd rather see them make the game into something more like a good shooter. This letting people superman stack with heals and guard is straight up San Fransican.
Make the game more like a real war, not a kiddie cartoon. The need for gear and class imbalances to carry someone is for losers.
PVP is more fun with it is fast, high fatality, and utterly ruthless. If the devs added in an equal number of war zone kill maps, it would break the objective based CC cheese dominating the game right now.
At that point, no one would care about this one power or another. It would actually be a skill based game rather than a WOW knock off.
That is unless we really want to have balance arguments for the next 7 fracking years just like wow, with people lying and trying to forum politic for advantage. The same whacked gear grind and a repeat of the Blizzard devs lying about the actual subscription numbers when the largest part of their numbers base doesn't even pay monthly (i.e. China).
That's my 2 cents. Your mileage may vary.
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Or in other words:
Best way to win any Warzone: coordinate your team effectively. Go for objectives, not just individual goals such as medals and kills. Control the objectives. Outsmart the other team. Hope your other random team mates aren't just cannon fodder medal dispensing machines.
Except for the problem that Huttball is supposed to be a pvp map to begin with. It is the most played map in SWTOR by default at that.
Skipping the pvp to win in 3 minutes while avoiding any actual pvp is the main strat now. It is extremely effective, but it is not pvp. Performed with peak levels, it is actually pveing past the environmental blocks.
Huttball can't be considered anything other than a failure, at the design level, if the objective was a pvp map. It is a social event with minor scuffles, CC slow downs, and pve blocks, rather than a real fight.
The lack of kill maps is an issue in most games with instances at this point. Focusing a large group of players on objective maps, breeds CC spam fests and a lack of focus on actually killing other players, which is kind of supposed to be the meaning to the term pvp.
Since 2004, developers have been making pvp instances to force players to do objectives they have dreamed up and normally poorly balance for class performance. The lack of understanding that people que these things to fight is simply amazing.
Your assessment is absolutely correct. That is how you win the average map in just about any game now. You avoid everything that the player base actually ques up for.
It is just amazing how sad that truth is. It speaks volumes of the competency of the average design team's grasp of what the player base wants.
The player base asks for a sports car. They get an enema instead.
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If they had arena it would only help showcase how laughably unbalanced classes are in this game.
Sadly, that's exactly what WOW arenas did. The Blizzard devs so gave up on it that 2v2 arenas didn't even count.
Why do healers benefit double from Expertise? Can a Dev explain this design decision?
in PvP
Posted
This would be the issue. Resilence is what made healing king in WOW, thus leading to 80% healing teams. Many servers have seen the same thing here, mine included.