Toushiro-kun
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Posts posted by Toushiro-kun
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Healers are tanks? Unkillable? Rubbish.
ONE and only one type of healer is truly op and godlike, commando/mercs.
They are getting their well deserved nerfs soon.
The question i now pose is why are we nerfing sorcs? Because they put up large healing numbers in void/civil? This is mostly from AE healing. Who out there as a damage class with equal gear/skill can not destroy sorcs? Not one class.
The extremely mobile ops/scoun healers are getting buffs, really? The most mobile healer in the game needs more mobility?
So just for clarification, Sorcs, who have not one single decent instant heal, no interruption protection, the worst defense, no defensive cooldowns, and absolutely 0 mobility need to stand still and cast 2+ second Dark Infusions? (after force bending nerfs, our quick cast of dark infusion is gone.)
But com/merc healers will still be tanks that can not be stopped, and ops/scoun healers will still be extremely mobile.../sigh
I have played my sorc as almost exclusively heals, and would not be concerned over these nerfs if damage was a viable option...yet our core mechanic of force lightning is receiving large nerfs, and i just can not see standing still and hard casting lighning tree spells in pvp.
Shame.
Can't tell if serious or trolling, but I'll bite and give him the benefit of the doubt.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about, commando healers are hardly god-like, they are generally harder to take down but that's because of their heavy armor, their heals are not that much higher than the other two healers (I have a scoundrel healer btw)
You're clearly ignorant of what the actual buffs to scoundrels are, we are not getting any mobility buff so I don't know where you're getting that from, we're mainly getting a quality of life improvement to our second resource management, Upper hand and the other buff essentially changes our 41 point talent to be a short burst aoe heal whereas now it's just an aoe dot that barely makes a difference and costs too much. Compare that to sages' 41 point talent which is amazing, more in pve than pvp though. Scoundrels need those buffs though because currently it's the hardest healing class to manage due to our two resources, not to mention that energy is probably the harshest resource to manage, ammo/heat is right there with it though, and to top it off scoundrels are the worst healing class as far as output, that's just wrong.
Also learn your own class please, "not a single decent instant heal?" What about your bubble? That thing is AMAZING for saving someone's life.
No interruption protection well guess what, scoundrels don't have any either, and unless we have upper hand stacks already we only have 1 main heal that can be easily interrupted leaving us useless against burst damage.
Worst defense, no defensive cooldowns and 0 mobility? Are you high? Sages/sorcs have bubble, knockback, ranged stun, ranges mez, SPRINT, snares, not to mention their friendly pull which is amazing in team based pvp. Their utility is amazing and if they ever get into trouble they can just sprint away most of the time if they play it smart. Want to know what scoundrels get? A melee stun, a 10 m ranged aoe mez (which admittedly is great sometimes, useless at other times), a self-bubble that only protects for like 1 hit, most of the time not even that, and a 3 second dodge bubble, oh and vanish which makes us unable to heal ourselves for 10 seconds making it a guaranteed death if someone sneezes in our direction and reveals us.
I feel for you having a long cast time main heal because as a scoundrel I've been in that situation too, but other than that you need to quit complaining and l2p because sages/sorcs have it good.
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/signed
This is one of the most frustrating things in the game for me right now. It needs to be fixed NAO!
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I dunno, so far the people I run into on Republic and Empire seem about the same. If anything the Republic feels a little more casual but that might be because I haven't hit 50 yet.
They seem very defeatist when it comes to Ilum. It's never "Hey who wants to group up and score some kills?" it's always "Does anyone know if it's possible to get points on Ilum right now."
The thing with Illum is that the empire greatly outnumbers the republic in almost every server so it's not exactly the best place for pvp right now. I'm not really saying that empire players are more immature, there are a lot of reasons to play empire, i.e. role-playing, but there's a reason the empire greatly outnumbers the republic, it's just that it's cooler looking so it naturally attracts more people, that includes kids.
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Ok, so now he's being the immature one but let's be honest, a lot of "seasoned" pvpers went republic because they knew that the empire would be filled with kids since Bioware made the empire seem a lot cooler than the republic, that's really Bioware's fault though, you can always reroll on the republic side and help a bit with faction imbalance on the way.
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And you left out: You have heals, I don't.
See, now you're just being ridiculous. We could chain sleep dart with flash bang and retain all our burst damage??? Heck, I was under the impression that our burst came from stealth, if we chained sleep dart with flash bang we would lose a large portion of our burst because we would now be out of stealth and in combat.
BTW, if we're comparing only infiltration vs. scrapper, those heals are horrible and are very unlikely to save your life, not to mention that they don't really bring a lot in terms of group usefulness given their really long cast time. Unlike your taunts which are a marvel to have in a team even if you're not kinetic combat spec.
Also, your stun is 30m range, ours is 4m, not to mention you guys have force speed for gap closing while we don't have anything. If you're really going to try and compare the two classes' sets then at least be honest about them. And again, no one is asking for a nerf to your sap, then it would just be useless, pretty much the way ours is right now.
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Exactly what Synergy? I'm curious?
You have a knockdown, I have a knockdown.
You have an 8s Whirlwind/lift, I have 8s Flashbang (mines 5m AoE, yours is 30m range)
You have an out of combat Stealth CC, I have an out of combat stealth CC(mine uses full resolve, yours doesn't)
You have a 4s Stun, I have a 4s stun. (Yours is 30m range, my is 30 second cooldown)
QFT!
Some of you people are being quite ridiculous, the fact of the matter is that there is absolutely NO reason for the two to be different with respect to resolve, and that used to be the case, they changed it in a recent patch and I don't know if it was intentional or not but either way it's stupid. My main is 50 scoundrel and I have a level 40 shadow alt and I can say that some of your complains are ridiculous.
"We don't have a healing tree derpity derp!" Well yeah you don't, but scoundrels don't have a tanking tree, so what's your point? And it's not as if the OP is asking for shadow's sap to be nerfed, he's asking for parity between the two abilities, that can also be achieved by making the scoundrel sap give as much resolve as the shadow one.
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Sooooo yeah...not trolling btw but I have never actually seen any of these problems...? I do my dailies every day, and my valor isn't maxed yet, but I've never seen this exploit, is it really that widespread of a problem?
Yes it is, idk about your server, but on the swiftsure people do it all the time, it's making pvp suck for me atm since illum is so horrible and now wz's are not enjoyable either. They need to fix this asap and ban every single person that did this exploit, it's so annoying to not be able to finish your daily because you keep getting into the warzone where the other team is exploiting. I'm aware it can happen by accident so I guess bioware should be careful with the ban hammer but for people that did this repeatedly they should definitely get their accounts banned.
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They have the kick stun
The mess
The other electructe style stun
Maybe another stun from crafting
OK....Now people are just making stuff up.....
Other than the initial knockdown, scrappers have the kick stun and the mezz, that's it! Well and one snare (root if talented)
There is no "electructe style stun" (L2Spell btw) that's the op's equivalent to dirty kick and last I checked there is no stun from crafting, and if there is and I'm not aware of it, how does that apply to JUST smugglers? L2Play and quit crying about a class that is honestly not all that great after the recent nerfs.
To the O.P. you're just a baddie, sorry but it's the truth, smugglers, whether scoundrels or gunslingers, are not known for their CC capabilities and BH healers are the most durable healers in the game right now. You whining about survivability is just hilarious and yes you are expected to know the class you're whining against because otherwise you look like a baddie that just likes to cry on the forums when he gets beaten, too bad it's a little late for you.
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I always heard the sustained DPS of an operative/scoundrel was subpar compared to other classes. This isn't 100% confirmed, but there are a couple ways in PvE that you can compare your DPS with someone else(eternity vault has a spot that splits your raid up and each person gets to kill a mob by themselves.
I hear ops/scoundrels are pretty slow at this.
They're only slow because we can't get back blast off reliably so our rotation is screwed up, but for the most part I think scoundrels are right there with other melees, the upcoming nerf to flechette might hurt that though.
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That would just shift your issue to the republic side and they're already disadvantaged enough as is.
Also,
Cardinal directions are hard bro!
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LOL. . . . Seriously
Play a sage or Sorcerer in PvP and see if you feel like it's OP then.
Assassins having it, might be OP, but Sages can't Vanish.
I loled at this, assassins are the only ones that should have it, they're a melee class and melee needs a gap closer. Sorcs having it on top of shield, aoe knockback, stuns, slows, and mez is much more OP for a ranged class.
That does not mean that the ability itself is OP however, the notion is actually laughable. My main is a scoundrel and I love rooting them in place before they can get away, if I don't manage to root them in time, I move on to my next target. Keep in mind scoundrels are arguably the class with the least amount of tools to counter an ability like force speed, yet I honestly don't find it OP in any way shape or form.
TL;DR- QQ more and L2P
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Ok, finally got a chance to try this...and found out dirty fighting as a scoundrel is worthless. Now maybe gunslinger who doesn't need to worry about upper hand and has that 30m range would get more use, but as a scoundrel it just stinks.
1) You have to be in melee range: Having one of your bleeds requiring upper hand to use means you have to get in the thick of it. This makes the actual melee classes giddy because it means you are easy to burn down.
2) Little defense: Even with having 2 snare breakers and a reduced cooldown on defensive screen, you just don't have much defense. The Assassin/shadows get the tanking abilities which makes them better suited to melee, but scoundrels/operatives don't have any real defense in the melee arena. So even with the added survivability of Dirty fighting's utility points, its still not enough.
3)DoTs? What DoTs?: The DoTs are pathetic because they don't last very long, can be easily cleansed, and only 4 of them. That is it for dirty fighting, you get 4 dots that don't do much. Against another 50 My ticks were only going for 200-300 damage with 3 of the 4 dots you get. Even with added 30% that's another 90 damage. Woot. 9.9
So basically with dirty fighting in the Scoundrel AC, little survivability, no real dps, no ability to threaten, no utility for teammates or party members. No reason to play Dirty Fighting.
Bioware, I think the scoundrel/operative needs to get some further thought...fast. You are making a ranged into a melee just like the Assassin/Shadow but not giving the survivability needed for being in that combat range. Our opener is being broken with nothing being given in return, and your 'shared' dps tree works far better in one AC then the other. Not everyone wants to be a healer all the time, which is what you are reducing us too with your upcoming patch.
I don't think you understand the tree very well. We only have 2 dots, wounding shots and hemorrhaging blast are dd spells.
1) Again, wounding shots is not a DoT, it's an instant cast that deals additional damage for each DoT already on your target, your 2 DoTs being vital shot and Sharp Bomb. Although the range is shorter than for GS, and GS don't require upper hand, our WS doesn't have a CD and it's not channeled so we have greater burst potential then DF GS.
2) This problem is not unique to DF, scrappers also have to deal with this.
3) My dots are dealing way more dmg than that so idk what's up with your numbers, the meat of our damage comes from wounding shots though, if you get lucky and all of its components crit, it can do almost as much damage as a scrapper shoot first.
Don't get me wrong, scrapper>>>>>DF currently, and I agree that the tree is awkward and needs a rework, but it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be, you just need to get used to the play style.
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So I just played a Huttball match in which i did 400k damage, I was the highest dps with the second highest being 226k, I would say DF is definitely viable, just earlier today I basically defended a point in alderaan all by myself against about 6 opponents because I kept dotting them so they couldn't cap. Oddly enough, they did have a sorc healer but she wasn't cleasing my dots so maybe she was a sucky healer or she didnt spec into her purge talent, either way it was awesome and near OP.
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@ Toushiro-kun you did really interesting math. If it were correct it would indeed be a buff.However i dont think that bioware would really make the stunlock even worse and i also heared that it still fills the resolve bar.
The far more concerning nerf is the armor pen. in a combination with the shoot first nerf anywy...at least imao
back to dirty fighting: didnt you have any problems with flashbang being totally worthless in this skilltree ? I mean the dots completely ruin one of the strongest cc's in the game and theoretically 3 outof 8 classes can "dispell" the dots. Dont get me wrong i agree with you that it is totally underrated and im impressed that 300k+ is possible but in my head it still feels bad
Yeah if it does still fill the entire resolve bar then that sucks lol and personally I think that the armor pen nerf is the most annoying because it affects PvE as well as PvP in a meaningful way whereas the shoot first nerf doesn't really affect PvE too much and was definitely needed in PvP.
As far as DF and flash bang, it can be a problem but most of the time it gets broken anyway in PUGs since there's really no coordination in the group. It's still annoying to throw it out there only to realize your dots are ticking on them lol as far as dispelling the dots, it is a pretty big problem against pre-mades and can severely hurt your dps output but in PUGs most healers don't notice when their teammates have a dot on them since the UI is so horrible for healing right now. The spec has some pretty big issues and it does feel awkward with the way our class works but overall I think it's more viable than what people think.
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any experianced valor 50+ scoundrel here who seriously tested dirty fighting ? cause i felt it really doing no dmg at all. only way to come close to your dmg is spaming scrap bombs. I however realy dislike these kind of things because they break absolutely every mezz out there and are probably worse for your team then for your opponents.
I'm only valor 41 right now but just yesterday I tried dirty fighting out in preparation for the scrapper nerfs. I've played as both sawbones and scrapper very extensively in pvp, as a sawbones i usually get >400K healing and as a scrapper it's almost always >300k damage, that's if the wz lasts the full duration though.
I have to say that i'm actually pleasantly surprised, at first it was really awkward and I was hating the spec but as I got more used to it it became a lot more fun. Wounding shots is amazing when you have both of your dots up and there's nothing like seeing your enemies die after you're already dead. The highest damage I did yesterday after about 10 warzones was 337k which is not bad considering i'm just getting used to the spec, i've done much higher numbers with scrapper though and with a lot more consistency too. I think it's a worthy spec and pretty underrated.
I've actually been thinking about the nerfs for scrapper, specifically the nerf to our knockdown. If I understand it correctly, the knockdown counts as both a displacement and a stun, the displacement gives 400 resolve and the stun gives 600 because it's 3 seconds long, that gives it a total of 1000 resolve which is the break point for the resolve bar, meaning the total resolve doubles to 2000 and our target can't be cc until all of it depletes. With the coming nerf the stun would only last 1.5 secs meaning the total resolve given by our knockdown would only be 700 which is not enough to give a full resolve bar and that gives us the opportunity to use another stun on our target. If we use dirty kick then we stun our target for an additional 4 secs and give him 800 resolve which doubles since it goes above 1000 for a total of 2300 resolve (700+800*2). This means we'll be trading 1 extra gcd and 300 extra resolve for 2.5 additional seconds that our target is stunned. Idk about you guys but that seems like a buff to me since we can now effectively "stun lock" our targets. Has anyone tested out scrapper in the PTS?
Sorry for going off in a tangent
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Adding a few more seconds to the duration of UH would make scoundrel healing easier without making us more powerful. Allowing it to stack to 3 would give us some more flexibility as well.
UI wise as well as the buffs being bigger, change location of them on screen, filtering out castable buffs, it'd be nice to have a HUD of UH stacks.
I love your ideas for UH, I do think we need some other buffs though. Specifically for kolto pack which is near useless at the moment because of how costly it is, kolto cloud could also use a buff to either its healing or energy cost. One thing that really grinds my gears right now is our 4 piece set bonus, I mean wth...why would you give us such a useless bonus for our 4 piece, most people dont even use kolto pack! It's honestly sad when I decide to use 2 pvp pieces and 3 PvE pieces instead of our full set just so I can get a more useful bonus from our gear.
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I feel like the two posters above are being a bit misleading, the actual scattergun is only used for a few abilities but they're pretty big abilities. I think you were actually asking about scoundrel vs. gunslinger though and right now in pvp scoundrel>>>gunslingers because of our burst, keep in mind we're getting nerfed next patch so that may change. In PvE it's harder to tell which is better because we don't have combat logs or a dps meter but I suspect gunslingers deal more dmg.
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this thread made me laugh
so there's actually another way to get there, but it's equally fun
you can go through the outlaw's den to get there, you go in from an entrance that's near republic outpost closest to the entrance to the dune sea, just go all the way across and you'll be a little bit outside the imperial outpost that leads into the dune sea so you can avoid all the imperial npcs, but you may have to fight against both imps and republic players.
Healing in PvP, a diatribe
in PvP
Posted
I'll admit I've only played a sage to 18 I think in the PTR but even at that low level I was doing pretty good healing just spamming bubble, now it might change later on I can't say.
Stuns and the like ARE defensive, they can be used both offensively or defensively you just have to play smart, i.e. stun your opponent then sprint away to heal out of their range, likely they'll just give up and chase another target. While I don't have a sage, I do have a 50 shadow and I can tell you sprint is amazing for getaways, sure other classes have counters but like I said before you can counter those counters by simply stunning them and the like before you try your escape.
And again, you seem to know next to nothing about other healing classes. Merc bubble has a long CD, does it need a nerf? Maybe I can't say but it's definitely not as OP as you make it out to be, and Scoundrel healers only have 2 "viable" ways to get UH, through UWM, our main heal which can be easily interrupted, and via RNG procs from our HoTs, I guess there's also blaster whip though you have to be in melee range and it does little damage in healing spec and there's shoot first but as a healer stealth is not all that useful and so you rarely have a chance to use shoot first without putting your team at risk of dying from lack of heals.
Sages/sorcs are not nearly as UP as you make them out to be, they're arguably the best healing class right now just on their utility alone.