Illum redesign (and a good, hard look at the rest of open-world PvP) is coming. I have some very definite ideas about what I'd like to see. However, I'll talk about why first.

 

 

I believe that the people who PvP in the open world are largely the ones who enjoy PvP. Gear is nice (lets you kill people faster), but in the end it's about the challenge and thrill of a PvP environment where anything can happen. You could get ganked by a passing mob at any moment, you could stumble upon an Imp and take them down, you can go hunting with a pack of friends and take people down. It's about the challenge, the thrill, and the variety.

 

There are also people who play for the gear. Frankly, I only kind of understand these people. I get it a little bit, but gear grinding doesn't seem fun to me. These are the people who rightfully belong in warzones. Warzones give them a fast-paced, predictable environment. There are rules. The teams have even numbers, so it's roughly matched. The only reason these people went into Illum was because it was so easy to exploit for gear. These are the ones who ruin open-world PvP for the first group by grinding for gear, objective-swapping, and exploiting. They're not in it for the fun, so they don't make it fun for people around them.

 

I think we really need to focus world PvP around the first type of person. The gear-grinders already have warzones, so they already have a system in place to satisfy them. If they could enjoy killing people who just sit there, then sitting there while people kill you, they can enjoy grinding warzones. However, the open-worlders currently don't have any place they're really happy. I'm going to talk about why that is, and how to give them what they want.

 

 

 

 

Objectives

One of my biggest issues with Illum is that you feel absolutely nothing when you capture an objective. You know that the moment you turn your back, die, or leave, someone from the other side can come retake it with no effort. You take an objective, but then you have no real desire to guard it. This is because it was no accomplishment to take it, so it's no real loss to lose it. I think this is the single biggest issue with world PvP as it is now. There's no motivation or sense of accomplishment for taking or guarding an objective. You know it's going to fall back into enemy hands the moment you leave.

 

 

Terrain

There are pretty much two ways you can design a world PvP zone. You can make it really small, so players are forced into proximity, or you can make it large, but create objectives that players congregate towards. Illum was really large, so to make up for that it should have had lots of important objectives. However, as I've already talked about, it's hard to care about the objectives, so no one spent much time guarding them. In my experience, we all ended up flitting between them, not really running into eachother.

 

 

Rewards

Right now, Illum gives gear rewards (until 1.2). That seems like a good thing, but it's actually a problem. To make the gear actually meaningful, it has to be hard to obtain. But the only way for it to be hard to obtain is to involve a grind. The Valor/Commendation grind is what attracted the gear-grinders to world PvP, which made it less fun for everyone.

 

 

 

 

I'd like to see a completely new PvP zone, or at least a complete redesign of Illum (which I've heard is coming). This is what I'd like to see.

 

I'm afraid that there's only one realistic way you can make objectives worth taking. We need NPC guards and bosses. Having NPCs that guard objectives means that it actually takes an effort to take them, so you feel a sense of accomplishment. It also means that you know it won't be taken the moment you leave, so you have motivation to take them.

 

The PvP NPCs have to be different from normal NPCs. One really important thing is that they need to be affected by Expertise just like they're a player. You should be able to use your PvP gear to kill anything in a PvP-specific zone. They also can't give any rewards for killing. These NPCs exist only to make objectives challenging. If they gave valor, commendations, or any other kind of reward, then you'd have objective-swapping.

 

However, there do need to be specific rewards for owning objectives. These come in two forms. First is a zone-wide buff increasing Honor (I talk about this later, but it's essentially valor you only get from open-world PvP) gained from player kills. Second is a buff from the smaller objectives that increase the strength or number of NPCs in larger objectives. This gives people incentive to try for and defend objectives, but no rewards for objective-swapping or other forms of abuse. If you want to grind Honor, you want to own every single objective and defend it with your life.

 

In my mind, I imagine four different types of objectives. These aren't set in stone at all; they're merely suggestions for how the system might work.

 

Large Base: This is the largest objective. It's central to the map, and it's impressive. Requires a minimum of 12 players to take, and that's assuming you have no one defending it and own at least half of the smaller objectives. Controlling the Large Base gives +15% Honor from all kills.

 

Base: These are the main objectives on the map. There are four of them (so that they're roughly equidistant from each side's starting point). They're not as big or as hard to take as the Large base, but they still require a large group. You're going to need a minimum of 8 people to take a Base, assuming no defenders and roughly equal ownership of smaller objectives. Bases give +5% Honor from kills, as well as +10% Damage and Damage Reduction to Large Base NPCs (if you own the Large Base).

 

Outpost: These are the objectives balanced for smaller groups. There are far more of them than bases, and they're spread out wide. I'd suggest 8-16 Outposts. They're designed to be taken by 4 players. Each outpost gives +1% Honor, as well as +5% Health for Base NPCs. If one side has a lot of small groups that have taken over Outposts, they're going to have a large advantage in Base fights.

 

Watch Tower: These are the objectives for Solo players. They're a simple tower, with a few mobs scattered around the base and several more challenging mobs inside. They're scattered around the map, but they are found at all key traffic points. Owning a Watch Tower only gives +1% health to Base NPCs. However, they also provide a more important, more interesting benefit:

 

Watchtowers you own will announce that they've spotted enemies any time more than two enemy players pass by the watch tower within thirty seconds. This means that if you own the right towers, you make it incredibly hard for the enemy to take an objective by surprise. If they sneak through the towers one by one, they'll make it, but that takes a long time. This would add a really interesting dynamic to map control. Since the towers don't the names of enemies or how many there were, you could also use them for decoys or bait. This gives solo players objectives to take, but also adds a really cool mechanic to large group play.

 

 

 

 

Honor

I'd add honor. Honor functions very similarly to Valour, except that it's for prestige only. There are no items that require Honor. The sole purpose of Honor is to be able to show off your accomplishments in open-world PvP. Honor would also grant unique titles, so people can better show off. This will give people an incentive to PvP, because some people see a number they can raise and have to raise it (just like the people that have already hit 50 on their legacy).

 

 

 

 

 

Just imagine this for a moment. The people who abuse the system, swap objectives, and care only about gear would be gone. The only people in world PvP would be people who enjoy it. Objectives would actually mean something. They'd be worth defending, and they won't be taken back the moment you leave them.

 

With this system, you'd have large, fluid battles all across the map. People would work to take objective just because that's world PvP, not because they're grinding gear.

 

It would be fun.

 

 

 

If you support this, link it in your sig. Maybe we get a lot of views/replies, maybe a dev reads it, maybe they add some of it. Who knows?

Edited March 23, 2012 by Philosomanic

Someone hire this guy !!

I didnt bother to read your wall of text, instead i will say something SWTOR is missing PvP wise.

 

You dont really hate the opposite faction, when people were still doing dailies/weekly for illum they only did it to get gear nothing more. Bioware need to add some sort of weekly achievement or something which grants the faction, maybe some event or something similar.

Yeah thats why we read befor posting.

Very well written sir!

 

Proper PvP action will come with time i think. The problem is that Ilum is really boring unless you have a bunch of acceptable-totally drunk friends with you, hunting everyone on sight.

 

There is no real motivation to go there and do something because, as you mentioned, it pretty much gives you nothing...

 

The ideas you wrote are really exciting and i personally would love to see them live.

 

Although, i think you never get rid off selfish gear/valour grinders, that's part of life...

 

/signed

Wow...I applaud you OP, I really do. Those are some great ideas and key points you make.

 

 

I love world PvP, and my friends and I will go from planet to planet, trying to take over small towns. However, once we get through, the guards respawn with 5 minutes, and it becomes a fight that will never end. There is no way to actually "take over" the town, but only a way to be a nuisance to the players trying to quest there.

 

This is a great idea, with no rewards, which is all we want. This gives meaning. I can take over a tower and feel proud and guard it as mine against all foes, rather than join a instanced spoon-fed warzone.

 

 

I love the idea of say a Watch Tower giving +1% NPC Health, and how it is made for solo or small groups.

 

/signed

/BioWare Hire

Edited March 23, 2012 by Mangzane

Although, i think you never get rid off selfish gear/valour grinders, that's part of life...

 

 

I know we'll never get rid of them. They're a part of gaming. However, I did my best to propose a PvP zone where they'd have no reason to go. You wouldn't get commendations or valor here, so no gear progress. My goal would be to keep the gear grinders in the warzones.

Bioware, replace Georg Zoeller by this guy ASAP Edited March 23, 2012 by Bocherel

Bioware, replace Georg Zoeller by this guy ASAP

 

 

No, no, no, Georg is great. I like a dev that actually posts in the forums and isn't afraid to tell the players they're wrong. Also, he's a charts and data guy just like me.

 

I would be happy if he (or any other influential dev) read and considered this, though ^^

I enjoy PvP because of the inherent challenge of playing against another person set in a dynamic environment.

 

Instances are not dynamic. Its the same thing over and over. Plus, there are time and objective constraints that dictate whether you "win" and how long the battle will last. Also, you can't truly pick your battles because someone else is always seconds away to come in and imbalance the fight. You can't really surprise attack anyone either because everyone is in there to PvP.

 

Because of this, world PvP is typically associated with freedom from these constraints because there is no control over who comes and goes and how you choose to play. You are more able to define the experience instead of the game defining it for you on its own terms. Anything from hunting players just beyond the outskirts of a base or mission point to stalking someone across the map until striking when you feel the time is right.

 

That being said, I definitely agree with your opening.

 

 

To add to your ideal PvP zone....

 

Bases and/or Outposts: These could actually be guarding a resource node, and whoever controls the outpost controls the resource revenue. The resource could be anything, but the reward would still be honor or buffs. This is more aesthetic, but it creates a sensible reason "RP-wise" why you want to control the outpost. You are helping your faction control valuable resources.

 

At varying times during the day, resource shipments leave the bases/outposts to be delivered to a collection point. Opposing players could attack these and steal the resources by returning them to one of their own bases. Stealing resources rewards honor and gives a random class buff.

 

NPCs: There could be random NPC patrols as well as random NPC raids on the bases or outposts, whether its a small patrol feeling brave or a large calculated attack. If a base has been held by one faction for a very long time, the likelihood of a large NPC attack goes up. The latter could be a useful mechanic to adjust for faction imbalances that cause one faction to always control all bases.

 

Honor: Honor can be "spent" at bases to increase security forces (NPCs) to defend the base you're at, create a patrol, or increase the size of the next resource escort. It would be even cooler if you could choose from a variety of different NPCs: medic, tank, ranged dps, stealther, etc. You would also be able to view a list of the current security make-up so you can decide what needs purchased next.

 

Furthermore, this would be worthwhile because a base could have a default garrison size (say 12 NPCs) and to help protect it, you can invest in more NPCs to give it better defense (up to 24). However, your faction is limited to a NPC population cap that does not allow you to reach the max cap for every garrison. This way your faction cannot keep every base they own heavily defended. Newly acquired bases would be susceptible to being taken back until its defenses are built up.

 

Beyond actually increasing the garrison, some bases can receive laser turrets and/or shield generators as well, both of which can be either destroyed or disabled. If disabled, they will be kept if the base is taken but will need to be repaired.

 

 

 

That's all I got for now. = )

OP et al, please let me know what you think.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Redae

No, no, no, Georg is great. I like a dev that actually posts in the forums and isn't afraid to tell the players they're wrong. Also, he's a charts and data guy just like me.

 

I would be happy if he (or any other influential dev) read and considered this, though ^^

 

Well Georg would probably answer to you that since the mass are more interested in grinding for a carot then he'd skip such an idea and leave it like that.

 

That's the kind of guy he is, considering he uses his datas for money, not for balance.

 

Since his last interview I've lost all faith in this guy, he has not a single view similar to mine regarding MMOs.

 

But whatever, if BW can at least consider your suggestion I'd be happy regardless

Edited March 23, 2012 by Bocherel

I enjoy PvP because of the inherent challenge of playing against another person set in a dynamic environment.

 

Instances are not dynamic. Its the same thing over and over. Plus, there are time and objective constraints that dictate whether you "win" and how long the battle will last. Also, you can't truly pick your battles because someone else is always seconds away to come in and imbalance the fight. You can't really surprise attack anyone either because everyone is in there to PvP.

 

Because of this, world PvP is typically associated with freedom from these constraints because there is no control over who comes and goes and how you choose to play. You are more able to define the experience instead of the game defining it for you on its own terms. Anything from hunting players just beyond the outskirts of a base or mission point to stalking someone across the map until striking when you feel the time is right.

 

That being said, I definitely agree with your opening.

 

Agreed, and well stated.

 

 

To add to your ideal PvP zone....

 

Bases and/or Outposts: These could actually be guarding a resource node, and whoever controls the outpost controls the resource revenue. The resource could be anything, but the reward would still be honor or buffs. This is more aesthetic, but it creates a sensible reason "RP-wise" why you want to control the outpost. You are helping your faction control valuable resources.

 

At varying times during the day, resource shipments leave the bases/outposts to be delivered to a collection point. Opposing players could attack these and steal the resources by returning them to one of their own bases. Stealing resources rewards honor and gives a random class buff.

 

NPCs: There could be random NPC patrols as well as random NPC raids on the bases or outposts, whether its a small patrol feeling brave or a large calculated attack. If a base has been held by one faction for a very long time, the likelihood of a large NPC attack goes up. The latter could be a useful mechanic to adjust for faction imbalances that cause one faction to always control all bases.

 

Honor: Honor can be "spent" at bases to increase security forces (NPCs) to defend the base you're at, create a patrol, or increase the size of the next resource escort. It would be even cooler if you could choose from a variety of different NPCs: medic, tank, ranged dps, stealther, etc. You would also be able to view a list of the current security make-up so you can decide what needs purchased next.

 

Furthermore, this would be worthwhile because a base could have a default garrison size (say 12 NPCs) and to help protect it, you can invest in more NPCs to give it better defense (up to 24). However, your faction is limited to a NPC population cap that does not allow you to reach the max cap for every garrison. This way your faction cannot keep every base they own heavily defended. Newly acquired bases would be susceptible to being taken back until its defenses are built up.

 

Beyond actually increasing the garrison, some bases can receive laser turrets and/or shield generators as well, both of which can be either destroyed or disabled. If disabled, they will be kept if the base is taken but will need to be repaired.

 

 

 

That's all I got for now. = )

OP et al, please let me know what you think.

 

 

Those are all great ideas, and I see why you want them. Here's what I think:

 

Having a resource node in the bases might work, but I don't really want there to be any motivation to take objectives outside of world PvP. This might lead to groups of players that pick one base, camp it, and do nothing else. That wouldn't really be fun. I'd rather have the only motivation be "for the love of world PvP". On the other hand, it could bring more people in, which is always good. I'm not 100% sold on the idea, but it's worth trying out.

 

NPC patrols are a great idea. That way, controlling objectives would have even more of an effect on the map. However, I'm not a huge fan of random NPC raids. I think it should be up to the players to take an objective back, and I don't think anyone should sit around waiting for a raid before they run in. Also, imagine how much it would suck if you were having an epic fight, barely defending your base, and then a random mob of NPCs crushes you. It sucks to lose because of something random and outside your control, rather than the opponent having superior skill.

 

Honor upgrades are the one thing I'm strongly against. That would give the grinders a motivation to grind/exploit. That makes the game less fun for everyone, and lowers the value and prestige of having a high honor rank. Also, having a limited budget would make things less fun. What if some noob wanders in and puts all the NPCs for your side in horrible positions? If you can destroy/move your side's NPCs, then the system is vulnerable to cheating/griefing/sabotage. If not, then you're stuck with the results of someone else's stupidity. Neither of those are good outcomes.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Philosomanic

 

 

NPCs: If a base has been held by one faction for a very long time, the likelihood of a large NPC attack goes up. The latter could be a useful mechanic to adjust for faction imbalances that cause one faction to always control all bases.

 

 

 

Honor: Honor can be "spent" at bases to increase security forces (NPCs) to defend the base you're at, create a patrol, or increase the size of the next resource escort. It would be even cooler if you could choose from a variety of different NPCs: medic, tank, ranged dps, stealther, etc. You would also be able to view a list of the current security make-up so you can decide what needs purchased next.

.

 

 

There are two problems that I see, unfortunately. The first problem will need to be addressed before we consider anything of the likes.

 

1.) How large, spread out, and isolated will these bases be? Frame rate drops when there is more than 20 people on the screen. This is the biggest obstacle in the way.

 

2.) There is population imbalance. With the ability to spend " Honor " on NPC guards would mean that the more populated side would have more guards eventually, and with the random NPC attacks from the less populated side, it seems it would be a snowball effect.

 

Other than that, you have very nice ideas, and a great view on why world PvP is fun.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Mangzane

People keep forgetting, the HERO engine cannot handle open world pvp. In short, it cannot handle lots of players doing Ilum pvp. It doesn't matter how much improvements or how fun Ilum would be with changes. Bioware is going to completely abandon ilum and open world pvp because the game engine cannot handle it. Edited March 23, 2012 by xxdragonragexx

That's rather pessimistic. I'm pretty sure they're going to at least try it. And if it's laggy? Then that promotes scattered, small-group fights. Which are fun

I totally support your ideas!

 

This game would be so much fun, I live and breath world pvp!! ..when there actually is some lol.

I totally support your ideas!

 

This game would be so much fun, I live and breath world pvp!! ..when there actually is some lol.

 

Put it in your sig! This won't make a difference unless lots of people read it.

Done!

Signed, sealed, and please deliver it Bioware

This would be awesome, it does suck that the FR would die during any large battle, but small skirmishes are a lot of fun too. I'm both a grinder and a world pvper so this would be something awesome to do in between queues instead of just sitting on the fleet.

I thought Ilum was going to be Open World PvP

Great idea would be interesting if the engine could be tuned enough to make it possible.

 

Only suggestions from me is to make health, not damage of the NPCs scalable from increasing numbers of players. Otherwise assaulting bases turns into an ugly proposition against relatively even numbers.

 

A rough guide is Champs and elites with 0 defenders present, going to weak enemies that can be 1-2 shoted with basic attacks at 11 defenders to removing NPCs altogether at 12 and above. The damage shouldn't change so smaller groups of defenders have a chance to do damage while not being focused or if focused ensure adequate damage is still being done.

 

Another idea is a medical center and speeder pad at major bases allowing reinforcements and revives to occur and these must be taken during the assault to allow a capping. Medical center revives would need to be on a 30 sec timer at least in this case.

Only suggestions from me is to make health, not damage of the NPCs scalable from increasing numbers of players. Otherwise assaulting bases turns into an ugly proposition against relatively even numbers.

 

A rough guide is Champs and elites with 0 defenders present, going to weak enemies that can be 1-2 shoted with basic attacks at 11 defenders to removing NPCs altogether at 12 and above. The damage shouldn't change so smaller groups of defenders have a chance to do damage while not being focused or if focused ensure adequate damage is still being done.

 

The damage bonuses only apply to the Large Base. Base, Outpost, and Watch Tower NPC Damage doesn't change. Also, only Bases provide the damage bonus. The highest it can get is +20%, if your opponent has all of the bases. I wanted to make it so that the Large Base is a real challenge to get. You can't just grab 12 random guys and go take it while the enemy has all four Bases. Before you even stand a chance at taking the Large Base, you have to have at least two of the normal Bases. This also means that taking all four normal Bases makes the Large Base much easier to take.

 

 

 

Another idea is a medical center and speeder pad at major bases allowing reinforcements and revives to occur and these must be taken during the assault to allow a capping. Medical center revives would need to be on a 30 sec timer at least in this case.

 

 

That's a great idea. Things like this are awesome. I think it would be cool if the med center and speeder were separate objectives, though. That would add another cool mechanic. You could sneak past the watch towers, then do a rapid attack to take down the med center and speeder. That way, the first time your enemy is aware that you're attacking the base, they're unable to send fast reinforcements or revive there. Adds so much more to objective-taking than just rushing to the base commander.

 

More things like this! My dream would be to have a wide variety of objectives to take that all have some tangible effect on the battlefield. Taking a speeder pad opens up a huge number of new possibilities. You could send a decoy team to go draw their attention to the north base while a stealth team of Shadows/Assassins and Scoundrels/Operatives infiltrates the south base (your real target) to take over the speeder. Then you send your massive wave of reinforcements to the south base, and suddenly your entire army is in the enemy base with respawns and speeders, and their entire army is across the map.

 

Keep up the epic ideas!

I thought Ilum was going to be Open World PvP

 

It is, but it's horrible. The objectives make no tangible difference on the battlefield, can be taken by one person, and can be retaken the moment you leave. This means that there's no sense of accomplishment for taking it and no motivation to capture or defend the bases.

I agree and

 

Ilum is too big. Remove the North and South locations and only have a central and shrink the overall map.

 

Provide PVP attainable skills similar to the legacy system that can only be used in a PVP zone. IE, just like legacy skills can only be used with a companion out.

 

Attach these added skills to a pvp ranking system with decay. IE, if you stop PVP'ing then you lose the skills.

 

Could also throw in some item rewards attached to a leader board system for players and guilds. Tracking kills / points always keeps PVP'ers going, from my experience.

 

IMHO.