Questions and discussion of Guardians in PvP

[londgon]

So I feel like I should ask some questions about the issues I perceive the class to have to see if others can agree with it before I take it as fact.

 

I am only level 21 on my knight and it is obvious the class is very talent dependant but these are the issues I see and would like comments on them and anything else about the class that you might find true or not true about it.

 

 

Edit: Check 2nd page for current discussion

 

 

 

Mobility? - I feel the Knight and Warrior class lacks in the mobility department with not much to make up for it, few ranged abilities and only 2 gap closers if talents with the 2nd one requiring focus/rage.

 

Focus Starved? - To me it seems the Knight and Warrior class has a lot of build up to be able to put out their damage, while other classes start big and end small, a Knight starts small and ends big, the problem with this is that PvP is all about burst, there is no place for starting small and ending big in PvP in my opinion.

 

Interrupt? - The Knight and Warrior class has an 8 second cool down interrupt with a 4m range that costs 1 focus/rage. This wouldn't be an issue if (as far as I'm aware) no other class has an interrupt that costs any of their resources to use. The only advantage a Knight has here is the 4 second CD difference (Only 2 second difference if other classes talent their interrupt) between their interrupt and other classes.

 

Zealous Leap? - This spell gets it's own note outside of Mobility because I feel it just hurts the class so much for their only other form of gap closer to cost 3 focus, coupled with the focus starvation I feel it just adds up to not being able to deal with the mobility issues.

 

Master Strike? - This one is just that, atleast 50% of the time when I try to use it the animation starts and the cast bar starts but the cast bar disappears, it does no damage, I can't move or use any other spell until the animations are over.

 

 

Those are the main issues I can think of right now and again, I'm only level 21 so I'm not trying to pass these off as fact I'm just checking if anyone else feels the same way and if not how they deal with said problems.

Edited January 2, 2012 by londgon

[vrgadin]

agreed. dont forget that armor rating means nothing in pvp as cloth wearing turds mitigate the same amount with bolster.

 

no heal also. (looking at u bh and inq)

 

master strike is a joke, even with hitting stasis first (unchanneled version) to keep them in place, most times it dosent actually do the dmg its supposed to, the big hitting end animation takes too long and they have run away before the animation is over.

 

anyone notice how pommel strike (one of our hardest hitting abilities) dosent work against players?

 

i usually hilt strike npcs and finish with pommel while they are cced. against players pommel is greyed out. this in itself is utter fail.

 

force leap-sweep-bladestorm hilt strike-sunder basically takes 10% of a bubbled inq health. after that they are un cced and ur on cooldown while they forcelightning and cc u to death.

 

lvl 48 here btw

Edited January 1, 2012 by vrgadin

[oTOMo]

I am also a jedi guardian, level 29 in fact, i am finding that they seem a bit squishy yet they are supposed to be a tanking class, and i agree that we dont have much burst damage to begin fights with.

 

I did pretty well in alderaan pvp earlier but not because of my dps, but i was recieving points for defending them and it acctually shows up on the scoreboard, so i am focusing on defending team mates rather than going for kills in pvp as this seems to be what bioware had in mind for our class, although i am kind of hoping we get patched in future to be a little more viable and self sustainable.

[lsarii]

I haven't had any of these problems. At all. These sound like L2P issues, assuming you're level 50.

 

Mobility?

 

You're kidding right? We have some of the best mobility in the game. We have Force Leap on a really short cooldown, the leap to an ally ability, a spammable slow that any build can make be zero cost, and can spec to either be immune to CC after we leap or have ANOTHER leap.

 

Focus Starved?

 

Combat Focus combined with lots of talents that increase Focus Generation. When using Combat Focus I have zero focus problems ever.

 

Interrupt?

 

The cost is annoying, I'll grant you this, but like you said, we do have a shorter CD than other classes.

 

Zealous Leap?

 

Do you have any idea how ridiculous Focus' damage would be if we didn't have to manage our Focus to get off our entire combo? Zealous Leap is fine. My only complaint is that when you use it on a moving target you're nowhere near them after you use it.

 

Master Strike?

 

Not sure why you're trying to use this so much in PvP. Seriously.

 

L2P

[lsarii]

I am also a jedi guardian, level 29 in fact, i am finding that they seem a bit squishy yet they are supposed to be a tanking class, and i agree that we dont have much burst damage to begin fights with.

 

I did pretty well in alderaan pvp earlier but not because of my dps, but i was recieving points for defending them and it acctually shows up on the scoreboard, so i am focusing on defending team mates rather than going for kills in pvp as this seems to be what bioware had in mind for our class, although i am kind of hoping we get patched in future to be a little more viable and self sustainable.

 

I stopped reading at level 29. Guardians aren't good until level 50 with a bit of gear. EVERYONE knows this.

 

The underlined part is what every class should be doing in every Warzone in every MMO.

[vrgadin]

I haven't had any of these problems. At all. These sound like L2P issues, assuming you're level 50.

 

Mobility?

 

You're kidding right? We have some of the best mobility in the game. We have Force Leap on a really short cooldown, the leap to an ally ability, a spammable slow that any build can make be zero cost, and can spec to either be immune to CC after we leap or have ANOTHER leap.

 

Focus Starved?

 

Combat Focus combined with lots of talents that increase Focus Generation. When using Combat Focus I have zero focus problems ever.

 

Interrupt?

 

The cost is annoying, I'll grant you this, but like you said, we do have a shorter CD than other classes.

 

Zealous Leap?

 

Do you have any idea how ridiculous Focus' damage would be if we didn't have to manage our Focus to get off our entire combo? Zealous Leap is fine. My only complaint is that when you use it on a moving target you're nowhere near them after you use it.

 

Master Strike?

 

Not sure why you're trying to use this so much in PvP. Seriously.

 

L2P

 

L2 not be an epeen d bag

[vrgadin]

I stopped reading at level 29. Guardians aren't good until level 50 with a bit of gear. EVERYONE knows this.

 

The underlined part is what every class should be doing in every Warzone in every MMO.

 

and only being good at 50 with gear is such a great game design when bhs, inq and agents do 200k dmg at lvl 11-50. you actually proved the op and I's point.

Edited January 2, 2012 by vrgadin

[lsarii]

and only being good at 50 with gear is such a great game design when bhs, inq and agents do 200k dmg at lvl 11-50. you actually proved the op and I's point.

 

Leveling balance totally matters in MMOs. What is this your first one?

Edited January 2, 2012 by lsarii

[londgon]

I stated I was level 21 and these were merely observations from strictly numbers without doing any actual math which is again why these were questions to see what everyone thinks about this, not trying to pass anything off as fact except for the Master Strike bug and the interrupt numbers.

 

The interrupt thing as I mentioned, ours has only a 4 meter range while everyone else has a 10 meter range, ours is a 8 second cd and they have a 12 second cd, we have no talents for ours but most (I think?) have a talent to make theirs 10 second so I think we should have a talent to make ours cost no focus. (Just as a quality of life change, I don't like saving 1 focus to interrupt at clutch moments)

 

Every class that has a version of pommel strike can't use it on players because Bioware decided it did too much damage in PvP.

 

 

What in the gear makes Guardian good at 50 if I might ask? if it's expertise, as soon as everyone gets the same expertise as you it'll be right back where you started, if it's another stat that simply means Guardians scale better than other classes and gradually become far better than other classes because of the scaling. Either way it's not something you want for your class unless it's somehow a perfect medium which normally it isn't.

 

 

 

 

And in the Spoiler below is my respond to mobility assuming you care enough to read it.

 

 

While I'm aware we have more mobility than other melee classes that doesn't mean the amount of mobility in the game is "good enough," I feel melee classes need more ways to close the gap but this won't ever be truly seen as a problem unless a sort of Arena pvp is added simply because no one will care if a class can be kited from full to dead until they start losing rating for it. (Note: I am not asking for arena pvp here so don't attack me for simply mentioning it.)

 

 

[lsarii]

Honestly I have never had trouble staying on a ranged class ever. Pretty much all you have to do is hit your slow right after your leap (and not open with leap if you can avoid it) and you're virtually unpeelable. I feel like Sentinels may have a harder time than us (though Focus is probably still fine), but Guardians don't need anything as far as mobility is concerned.

 

The main reason Guardians are better at 50 is talents (plus friendly leap is just amazing). We have a lot of powerful talents that don't become available for a long time, and most these work best in conjunction with other talents. The reason you need gear is because you're competing with people who have gear.

 

Honestly you need stop worrying about these things at level 21. You simply have no perspective whatsoever on how the game actually works. Hell, you don't even have any of your core abilities yet really.

[londgon]

Well the entire point of this thread for me was to just get this discussion going, people have been fairly quiet on things like this and it's all about "x class is just better than y class because I said so," I just wanted to get some information gathering going and started the discussion with my views at level 20 expecting people to disagree with it and give reasons why, so thank you for providing the thread with your views.

 

The mobility issue I was thinking more of broadly as in I think all melee need some more mobility, guardian clearly being the one that doesn't need it as much as others.

 

The talents I also pretty much expected, Guardian seems to have much better talents than other classes but I can't quite structure why I think that yet.

 

 

What is a problem you see with the class that you'd like improved even if only slightly though?

[lsarii]

Well for each spec, since they play pretty drastically differently each tree:

 

Defense:

 

I'm pretty torn on this one. The Defense tree has a *ton* of utility, with Hilt Strike, Spammable free slow, non-channeled Force Stasis, Guardian Leap, and your guard/taunt of course. If you don't want someone to die - they will not die. That's all there is to it.

 

You are an absolutely disgusting ball carrier. You can jump to an ally, then jump into a pack of enemies on another platform, mash Awe and if they don't break it, keep on moving. You have amazing defensive cooldowns that will almost always get you down the ramp to score, even with very little team support.

 

(Side note - understanding resolve and when to use your CC break is a must for this: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=61363 )

 

However, your damage compared to other tanks *seems* lackluster. We can't know if this is the case without a combat log, but I think most people will agree we do far less damage than a PT or an Assassin tank. But they don't have the utility we have. Defense Guardians are already pretty amazing, and I think a damage boost without some sort of nerf elsewhere would put them way over the top in PvP - and nerfing a tank's tanking ability in favor of more damage just seems counterintuitive (as long as they aren't failing in threat at PvE).

 

 

Vigilance:

 

I don't like Plasma Brand in PvP. It's not bursty, and the spec doesn't have a lot else going on DoT wise to work with it (although you get decent burst from Bladestorm after using Overhead Slash, which gets good burst on its own. Plus the buff to crit you get from the Overhead slash doesn't go away after using a Bladestorm, so your dispatches routinely crit for 2.8k or so right after a Bladestorm. It's a great burst combo if they're at low health).

 

The free sweeps are nice, and you can get OK damage from them (nothing like Focus though)

 

What you gain in damage from Shien Form really isn't worth losing guard either.

 

Frankly, I just don't like Vigilance for PvP.

 

Nyan's hybrid build ( http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500crhczZhGr0rhdzMM.1 )

 

This is a solid build with a lot of survivability and decent burst potential. If you want to be a hybrid tank/dps - this is the way to go.

 

 

Focus -

 

Focus is for the win and the best spec for Guardians to DPS in PvP. There is no comparison to the guaranteed 4k crits you routinely get in decent gear. In good gear, you can push 7k. Did I mention this was with Force Sweep, so you're doing it with an AoE?

 

I've been running Focus for a few days and man, I can't believe I haven't done it before. You get two leaps (though Zealous Leap doesn't root them, so they just get away from you), insane crazy burst, free spammable slow, another slow that's a DoT and on top of that enables you to do crazy burst with Sweep.

 

For the most part, Sorcerers fall at my feet (one exception being a healer I faced that outgeared me, but he may have been getting heals from other sources too). I can't be kited, and my damage is insane. I top the charts almost every time.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Focus for PvP.

 

Things to consider though:

 

You have a rotation, it takes a bit of focus to use, and you suck if you don't get it off right.

 

Force Leap/Zealous Leap (makes your next sweep crit) Force Exhaustion/Force Stasis (after 4 ticks, your next sweep does double damage) then Bladestorm (Costs no focus after Force Leap/Zealous Leap), and finally - Force Sweep. You will be surrounded by huge numbers, at which point you can probably dispatch someone.

 

If you ever find yourself low on focus you have to use Combat Focus.

 

In my experience, Focus requires the most focus management (perhaps appropriately named), but is definitely the most rewarding if you enjoy big numbers).

 

There is a build to use Soresu while focused specced that Nyan uses, but in my experience that makes Focus management a much bigger issue. It's certainly a tradeoff to consider (and honestly probably better to use for the group utility).

 

 

 

I also think not being able to use Guard except when in Soresu form is a problem for both DPS specs that should be changed - even if it is the same for all classes.

 

 

 

 

In short, I guess I'd say Focus and Defense are both amazing for PvP, but at least in my experience, Vigilance is a little lackluster (the hybrid spec is good though). But we can fill either role we want pretty successfully by going into one of those two trees.

Edited January 2, 2012 by lsarii

[cocoajumpo]

In terms of mobility I have zero problems with force and guardian leap. Typically I always have enough focus to interrupt every time. The cool thing about guardians is that you can lock someone out using interrupt, then cc, then interrupt. You may not be high enough level to do that.

 

When I was leveling I was defense mostly and I agree it was very rough lower level as bh and inq did s boat load of damage early, but if you stick with it you will blossom. In my experience when you are leveling the focus tree gives you quite a bit of damage. I have seen force sweep crit for 3.5k.

[lsarii]

I have seen force sweep crit for 3.5k.

 

http://guard-this.com/images/nyan/30k.jpg

[cocoajumpo]

http://guard-this.com/images/nyan/30k.jpg

 

Haha ya it is pretty intense unfortunately I only have tank gear

[lsarii]

Haha ya it is pretty intense unfortunately I only have tank gear

 

I've been getting lots of duplicates from bags, so I could still go either way lol. I really like Soresu Focus though (I think).

[ViperI]

Mobility? - I feel the Knight and Warrior class lacks in the mobility department with not much to make up for it, few ranged abilities and only 2 gap closers if talents with the 2nd one requiring focus/rage.

 

 

Mobility is fine. Use of freezing force to keep your enemies from running away should allow you to stay in melee range at all times.

 

Focus Starved? - To me it seems the Knight and Warrior class has a lot of build up to be able to put out their damage, while other classes start big and end small, a Knight starts small and ends big, the problem with this is that PvP is all about burst, there is no place for starting small and ending big in PvP in my opinion.

 

This is specific to tank specs, and that's working as intended. If you want to always have focus for your big attacks, spec Vigilance. Or you can use Combat Focus for an instant boost of focus. Also, with throw saber and force leap building focus on your opener, you should be alright. But for non-DPS specs, lower focus generation is what balances the specs.

 

Interrupt? - The Knight and Warrior class has an 8 second cool down interrupt with a 4m range that costs 1 focus/rage. This wouldn't be an issue if (as far as I'm aware) no other class has an interrupt that costs any of their resources to use. The only advantage a Knight has here is the 4 second CD difference (Only 2 second difference if other classes talent their interrupt) between their interrupt and other classes.

 

We have more interrupts than just Force Kick. We also have Hilt Strike (Defense), Force Push, Force Stasis and Awe.

 

Zealous Leap? - This spell gets it's own note outside of Mobility because I feel it just hurts the class so much for their only other form of gap closer to cost 3 focus, coupled with the focus starvation I feel it just adds up to not being able to deal with the mobility issues.

 

So you think we need two, resource free, gap closers so we can ping pong between targets? No, we don't need that and it would lead to some absurd gameplay styles.

 

Master Strike? - This one is just that, atleast 50% of the time when I try to use it the animation starts and the cast bar starts but the cast bar disappears, it does no damage, I can't move or use any other spell until the animations are over.

 

PvE ability is PvE ability, nothing to see here. Yes, some abilities have more utility for one or the other and some only seldom get used. I only use Master Strike when someone else has put a long duration lockdown on a target. It's all about teamwork.

 

Those are the main issues I can think of right now and again, I'm only level 21 so I'm not trying to pass these off as fact I'm just checking if anyone else feels the same way and if not how they deal with said problems.

 

Personally, I think we have other issues, mainly a shortage of overall mitigation. Even with higher armor and +defense rating, we're borderline squishies. Our abilities, however, are well done, IMO.

[Bakarn]

It is pretty much impossible to be focus starved as Vigilence spec.

 

The main advantage of Plasma Brand is it shreds tanks and completely ignores armour.

 

Master Strike is a use on lockdown ability.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Bakarn

[londgon]

We have more interrupts than just Force Kick. We also have Hilt Strike (Defense), Force Push, Force Stasis and Awe.[/Quote]

 

Well when we look at it like that we could also say other classes have the exact same amount of interrupts between their stun, their knock backs, their instant AoE 1 minute cc.

 

I think it'd be in the best interest of pvp to NOT consider any form of CC as an interrupt, but that still leaves us without a free cost short CD interrupt even if we look at it like that.

 

 

Mobility is fine. Use of freezing force to keep your enemies from running away should allow you to stay in melee range at all times.[/Quote]

 

That is true for the current PvP in which it is just casual Warzones and nothing competitive, as soon as competitive PvP starts I think melee mobility will need to be addressed, more so for other classes than our own, simply because a melee dps that can't get to a kill target in any form of rated pvp is a worthless melee DPS in almost all situations. (But that's just my opinion on it)

 

 

But again Guardians are in a better position than other melee dps classes because they simply have more gap closers.

 

 

So I think these next 3 questions are fair to ask.

 

 

Slash? - Given the number of talents in the focus tree that affect Slash, if you take all the slash talents is Slash an ability you actually frequently use? If not what does it need to be worthy of use even when taking all the talents for it?

 

 

Offensive CD? - Do you think Guardian could use an offensive CD? Something to increase pressure output for roughly 20 seconds, it doesn't have to be anything really big just something to force the other team to go defensive in order to peel or cc.

 

Quality of Life change? - Without removing the cost of Zealous leap do you think it should have a snare or stun, lasting just half a second to 1 second as simply a quality of life change?

 

 

Note: I mainly just want to get some discussion going so we can both progress as a class and a community with in our class, I don't see many other classes specifically talking about how they function in PvP or theory crafting it at all. I think if we get talking more the class might be more inviting to others since they won't have to trial and error as much with more information on how we actually function.

 

 

Also think if anyone agrees that this discussion is at least potentially helpful I can keep the first post updated on what's been discussed and statements for or against some of the questions.

[Bakarn]

I'm of the opinion atm that the only thing I could use is a way to tie my main offensive cds into a macro with my relics.

[FunkyNassau]

Being a tank is something I haven't done since EQ so its been a learning process.

 

I'm 31 defense spec.

 

My dichotomy is that I presume guardian/defense is a tank spec that desires the opponent to attack me

 

However I seem to function best when noone is attacking me due to taunts. If people aren't attacking me however I don't generate much focus due to soresu.

 

So its a little weird.

 

I also fnd that guarding the healer in pubs is not the way to start the fight. Whoever's in front is best. I have to keep guard floating to who's losing health and currently under duress.

 

The lack of pommel strike is a bummer. I just got hilt strike so that's nice and looking forward to guardian leap.

 

I am enjoying the learning experience ( played warlock in rift which is akin to madness sorc) and looking forward to 50.

[Guinden]

How can you reach those high force sweep numbers, without singularity if you use that hibryd build mentioned before ? Edited January 7, 2012 by Guinden

[JPThunda]

Preface: I'm a lvl 50 Vigilance spec Guardian on Naddist Rebels, names Jaeren, come chat me up if you want. TL;DR is below.

 

I've been pvping melee dps heavy hitters a long time, and while I agree that there are some tweaks that need to be made, I don't see many of these looming problems you guys are talking about.

 

What you have to realize is that the jedi knight guardian dps specs are, unlike most melee beatsticks, a finesse class. Positioning will make or break your fight and timing is everything. You have to recognize what you're opponent is going to do and already have a formulated plan to counter their attacks, or you will fail.

 

Let me elaborate on this. I PVP in vigilance spec, so I have a grand total of one gap closer, force leap, and I almost never initiate a fight with it. You're better off either saber throwing and walking, or letting them come to you. Save the leap until after they've used their breakaway moves, force speed or the aoe push for sorcs, ambush for snipers(or a well timed saber ward to deflect and not get moved), etc. Granted, for snipers, first you push them to remove cover, but you guys already know about that.

 

And don't forget about guardian leap as a fantastic gap closer. I know it's a bit clunky without a type of focus macro in place, but setting up a keybind and remembering to use it will save your life, your friend's life, and help position you better. Let someone else blow a gap closer and leap to them.

 

Now master strike is the special child, and very situational, I'll admit. It also has the unfortunate bug that makes you cc yourself sometimes. I've found that the trick to using master strike properly is to use it in conjunction with pushing my target into an obstacle right in front of me and then immediately starting it, or using it right after force leap during the immobilize. And be mindful of your allies using cc, like, oh, cryo grenade. Makes for a nice master strike target.

 

As far as the rest of the damage goes, and being focus starved, we already have the tools to deal with these problems. Using combat focus on cooldown, as well as saber throws, force leap, and our sunder alleviates the focus problems entirely. Combat Focus + Leap + sunder means that I can pop plasma brand, overhead slash, and bladestorm, and that's a lot of burst. Throw in a force stasis right behind it and watch their health bleed away under dots, and now you have enough focus to dispatch, if their health is low enough. If not, start with the big strikes again, or lead into another combo. Granted, I PVP in Shien, not Soresu or Shii-Cho, but the logic is still the same.

 

And as for interrupts, it's a matter of timing with those, and we have plenty, but you also have to pick the right move for your opponents choice. Force kick should be used on the first possible move for those spammed abilities, like tracer missile, force lightning, rapid medscan, you know the ones, and the reason for that is for the lockout. Using push to cancel one ability, and following up with force leap AFTER they start another cast will produce similar effects, and a properly timed stasis works just as well. And keep in mind, though you should only use it for this sparingly, in dire need you can also use Awe as an interrupt.

 

Now I'll grant, most of what I talked about with respect to damage only applies to the Vigilance spec, but the other bits apply to any spec.

 

So if you stuck with my so far, kudos for reading, hope it helps.

 

TL;DR Guardian DPS is not a standard beatstick and requires more thought and finesse. See post above for justification.

Edited January 8, 2012 by JPThunda

[Valsetz]

I have been having a blast in all of the WZ games, but mostly as a FC in Hutball. I used to think that knocking people into the fire as a Consular was the most fun to be had in there, but I was wrong. Leaping between platforms or leaping on a freshly spawned opponent standing behind the goal line is extacy. This class is so much fun and the active resource generation and absence of any auto-attack mechanics is the future for MMO gameplay.

 

Valsetz