A look at Marauder (Rage) and Juggernaut (Rage) w/ supporting talent

[ayda]

Foundation/Evidence:

1st character: Marauder leveled to 50, valor 30+, mostly used carnage, experimented with annihilation, and now using rage.

2nd-5th: other empire classes

6th character: Juggernaut leveling in progress

 

Background:

While leveling Marauder, i had support from guildies; a juggernaut and assassin co-level the majority of the way. After much discussion and frustration of being "squishy" I decided it was time to experiment with other classes.

 

Needless to say, once I researched and projected out a juggernaut, it instantly led me here to the forums to post my discoveries and let the marauder community provide some input.

 

It is important to note, I have a love hate relationship with my marauder...

 

Evidence:

Juggernaut and Marauder "Rage" tree's are almost identical in every aspect except:

 

Juggernaut tier 6: Sundering Throw, lowers the CD of saber throw by 2.5 sec, applies 1 sunder armor to target (2 point box)

vs

Marauder tier 6: Undying, increases damage reduction by 1%, additionally reduces CD of undying rage by 15 sec (2 point box)

 

Supporting attributes:

Juggernaut tier 1: "Vengeance" Decimate. Increases damage dealt by smash 10% and lowers its CD by 1 sec (3 point box) (does not require shien form)

Juggernaut tier 1: "Immortal" Quake. Smash has a 50% chance to lower accuracy of affected targets by 5% for 18 sec (2 point box) (does not require soresu form)

vs

Marauder tier 1: "Carnage" Defense forms. Shii-cho form: Further increases damage reduction by 1% (2 point).

Marauder tier 1: "Annihilation" Quick Recovery. Reduces the rage cost of Smash and Sweeping Slash by 1 and reduces the cooldown of Smash by 1.5 sec (2 point box) (does not require Juyo form)

 

End result:

Juggernaut Rage build over Marauder Rage build:

 

Juggernaut gets

30% bonus to Smash damage, CD reduced by 3 (costs 3 points)

Reduces Saber Throw CD by 5 seconds, applies sundering armor to target

Smash has 100% chance to reduce accuracy of affected targets by 10% for 18 sec (2 points)

 

30m 3 rage building Saber Throw

Force Push (Knock back)

Intercede (leap to friendly target)

Back Hand (4 sec melee stun)

 

HEAVY ARMOR

SINGLE SABER

SHIELD

 

 

Marauder gets

4% damage reduction (costs 2 points)

Reduces Undying rage CD by 30 seconds

Smash and Sweeping Slash cost 2 less rage, and CD reduced by 3 (costs 2 points)

 

Force Camouflage (cloak for 4 sec, 45 sec CD)

Obfuscate (90% range/melee accuracy debuff for 6 sec, 1min CD) NO EFFECT TO FORCE/TECH accuracy

Deadly Throw (10m range, 20% healing debuff for 15 secs)

Predation/Bloodthirst/Berserk/Frenzy

Cloak of Pain (20% damage reduction, 6 sec, refresh on hit up to 30 secs, 1min CD)

Undying Rage (sacrifice 50% health = 99% damage reduction for 5 sec, 1.5min CD)

 

MEDIUM ARMOR (Medium armor chest piece armor value = Heavy armor gloves armor value)

TWO SABERS (Twice the cost to upgrade, modify, over all effect due to probabilities of accuracy vs reduced damage=33% increase in damage vs using a single saber)

 

 

Bottom line:

Marauder 2 extra steps to accomplish to get the same job done as juggernaut (Use cloak of pain when attacked to offset wearing medium armor and build "fury" to initiate 1 of 3 group/solo buffs.

 

 

Final thoughts:

 

I love my marauder, but I knew full well what I was getting into when I picked this class as I played many builds of the beta. With that, I hate myself for deciding to pick marauder over juggernaut.

 

Your thoughts?

Oh and please, /troll away

Edited January 1, 2012 by ayda

[Majinr]

well from that list you have given , you can see for yourself we do give more group utilities than a jugg and have the better defensive cooldowns, you say cloak of pain makes up for the medium armor..

 

Well I am not sure if i am right herem but armor does not mean anything for force attacks or bleeds or anything similar.. so having high armor value only helps for melee and range attacks.. but cloak of pain reduces damage by 20 %

 

So we are more durable then juggs with cd's, and dont forget undying rage , where we become unkillable for 5 secs which can be crucial in certain situations

 

I mean from your list, anyone can see the marauder has more utilty than a jugg (decrease healing done and so on)

 

However I have to agree on one thing which is the jugg does get the bonus damage on the smash - which kinda is the main focus point of rage, but mara's have other skills to make up for that , so IMO mara stil comes out on top purely on just how much more we can bring to groups in pvp matches - and that 30 % + dmg for smash does not mean a jugg is going to top the damage meters

Edited January 1, 2012 by Majinr

[Neara]

Was about to post something very similar when I stumbled upon your post, ayda. This thread should get more attention. I too share your sentiments:

The unique skills and higher melee damage we get as marauders do not seem to compare to the superior passive defense and utility Juggernauts bring to the table.

 

As stated, we have to actively fire our defensive cooldowns in order to be on the same level of survivability as a "dry" Jugg. Granted, Maras might be able to withstand greater dangers with good cooldown management. Our defense mechanics do not have a 100% uptime however - Cloak of Pain can easily be negated by watchful play - and everyone knows how durable we are without them.

That's an even score then, with a slight nod to the aware Marauder in short encounters and a slightly larger nod towards the Juggernaut in longer fights.

 

 

Now, apart from talent disparity, it boils down to unique class skills, and here I believe the goodies Juggernauts get will by far outweigh our group buffs and defensive cooldowns. Those goodies being:

 

Chilling Scream - aoe snare, great synergy with Smash

Saber Throw - an actual ranged ability/finisher

Force Push - no comment

Endure Pain - 30% self heal basically, health is lost afterwards (stupid)

Taunts - maybe not as burst preventive as Obfuscate, but again very useful in the long run

Guard - free medals, insane group survivability boost

Intercede - virtually a third charge, immensely useful on Huttball and group survivability

 

 

Marauders counter that with, as listed by the OP:

 

Force Camouflage - nice lifesaver

Crippling Slash - snare, single target only

Obfuscate - insanely good burst counter in theory, sadly doesn't work on spells

Deadly Throw - good pressure tool, purge-able afaik

Predation / Bloodthirst / Berserk - this is our main asset, 5 min CD on the big boy, building fury takes time in rage spec

Cloak of Pain - 20% damage mitigation, max. 50% uptime

Undying Rage - amazing "last stand" ability and possibly our redeeming feature

 

 

 

When looking at this and how highly retarded the medium PvP armor looks like one starts wondering if they should start to regret their class choice as well.

[Nightraiin]

^ I know I do.. Re-rolling Jugger!

 

..and yes.. all force users on the Imperial side have retarded looking gear.. that's a whole other thread though.

[BarcodeX]

@ ayda and Neara

Thumbs up to both of you guys for giving a good detailed comparison between Juggy Rage vs Marauder Rage.

 

Just a few quick comments from myself. From reading all this, Juggy Rage is probably a more viable choice than Marauder Rage PvE or PvP. It does look like Marauder gets minus points in defense and such; however, the play style of Marauder, Rage, Carnage, or Annihilation is far different than playing a DPS Juggy. I'm usually not the one to charge in as a marauder. I see myself as a finisher/disruptor (occasionally I love 1v1ing or 1v2ing if I know I'll win). All in all, if I was solely given the choice to roll a Rage Jugg vs a Rage Marauder, I'd pick Rage Jugg hands down after seeing all this information.

 

Thank God for Annihilation tree (I have yet to test Carnage in PvP)! And just like ayda, I love my Marauder (though there's no hate in it, except maybe that fact that we have no real CC). I will NEVER get sick of dual wield lightsabers.

 

#bookmarked

Edited January 5, 2012 by BarcodeX

[Nightraiin]

Should also mention Battering Assault.. building 6 rage is pretty substantial.

[Temeluchus]

@ ayda and Neara

Thumbs up to both of you guys for giving a good detailed comparison between Juggy Rage vs Marauder Rage.

 

Just a few quick comments from myself. From reading all this, Juggy Rage is probably a more viable choice than Marauder Rage PvE or PvP. It does look like Marauder gets minus points in defense and such; however, the play style of Marauder, Rage, Carnage, or Annihilation is far different than playing a DPS Juggy. I'm usually not the one to charge in as a marauder. I see myself as a finisher/disruptor (occasionally I love 1v1ing or 1v2ing if I know I'll win). All in all, if I was solely given the choice to roll a Rage Jugg vs a Rage Marauder, I'd pick Rage Jugg hands down after seeing all this information.

 

Thank God for Annihilation tree (I have yet to test Carnage in PvP)! And just like ayda, I love my Marauder (though there's no hate in it, except maybe that fact that we have no real CC). I will NEVER get sick of dual wield lightsabers.

 

#bookmarked

 

It's an informative,well written post. However in the end, it still comes down to this being personal opinion until BioWare gives us access to combat logs.

 

That may seem kind of backhanded to the OP, it's not meant to. As I said, they did a great job with the post but without detailed math,combat logs and theory crafting it's basically just a personal preference. It should not be taken as "proof" that Rage Juggs are better than Rage Maras.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Temeluchus

[Precurso]

Been saying the same things for a week now. Ppl keep posting their rage spec WZ screenshots failing to realize Jugs are better at it.

 

But hey, the class is fine, L2P, go back to WoW, it's a skill issue etc.

[Draexnael]

Been saying the same things for a week now. Ppl keep posting their rage spec WZ screenshots failing to realize Jugs are better at it.

 

But hey, the class is fine, L2P, go back to WoW, it's a skill issue etc.

 

I'd take a 5% less damage in Rage for the fact my char looks ****** with 2 sabers

[Precurso]

I'd take a 5% less damage in Rage for the fact my char looks ****** with 2 sabers

 

even with 3 sabers your char looks ****** with that horrible looking medium armor

minus awesome looking heavy armor and 30m sabre throw

[Draexnael]

even with 3 sabers your char looks ****** with that horrible looking medium armor

minus awesome looking heavy armor and 30m sabre throw

 

I walk around with my modded orange gear ;-] I only whack on my proper gear when entering instances or war zones.

[Torkepl]

Well. Looks like im re rolling again. This time from Mara to Jugger.

Im getting tired with this re rolling (3rd time).

[SleepyZombie]

Been saying the same things for a week now. Ppl keep posting their rage spec WZ screenshots failing to realize Jugs are better at it.

 

But hey, the class is fine, L2P, go back to WoW, it's a skill issue etc.

 

Hey man the class is fine learn to play get some skill i'm the best i teach you how to play maurader man! Get on my level!

 

*sigh* I can't wait till all these other 50 marauders have to fight other level 50s with pvp gear and there posts change about the marauder being "fine"

 

I should re roll as a BH and level to 10 and face roll 250k+ damage

[EasymodeX]

1. Juggernauts do not get Backhand in a full Rage spec.

 

2. Juggernauts have significantly less personaly survivability in a Rage spec. A Marauder will last twice as long due to: (a) stealth, (b) Cloak, and © 4% higher damage reduction in ShiiCho. The 5% armor on a Jugg trades the total damage reduction. The Cloak and stealth are superior.

 

3. Juggernauts have superior group utility (AOE taunt, AOE snare, taunt, KB) to compensate.

 

 

Cry. More.

[Torkepl]

1. Juggernauts do not get Backhand in a full Rage spec.

 

2. Juggernauts have significantly less personaly survivability in a Rage spec. A Marauder will last twice as long due to: (a) stealth, (b) Cloak, and © 4% higher damage reduction in ShiiCho. The 5% armor on a Jugg trades the total damage reduction. The Cloak and stealth are superior.

 

3. Juggernauts have superior group utility (AOE taunt, AOE snare, taunt, KB) to compensate.

 

 

Cry. More.

 

Im so confused right now because i want to play Rage spec PvP. So You say this other guys post false information here?

 

I seriously dont want to re roll again because im having so much fun with Mara so far. But i aim for lvl 50 pvp and all guys here post that jugger>mara in rage pvp spec...

[BarcodeX]

even with 3 sabers your char looks ****** with that horrible looking medium armor

minus awesome looking heavy armor and 30m sabre throw

 

I ain't gonna lie but I was gonna reroll way back as Juggy cuz I wanted that badazs 30m sabre throw and Intercede. Freakin pro skills dude.

 

I'll probably just make an alt Juggy though. I'm pretty geared out on my Marauder now, no point in stopping.

Edited January 6, 2012 by BarcodeX

[EasymodeX]

Im so confused right now because i want to play Rage spec PvP. So You say this other guys post false information here?

 

People interpret information differently, and value different capabilities different.

 

The only "FALSE" information was including Backhand in the context of a Rage spec.

 

 

Bottom line for Rage Jugg / Rage Marauder is that they are similar in an overarching way (Rage spec), but have different "OTHER" capabilities.

 

Marauders have better personal defense and survivability. Juggernauts have better group support.

 

Juggs hit for marginally higher on their Smash (30/200 = 15%), Marauders hit for slightly higher on Oblit/Assault/BA/Ravage from offhand procs.

 

 

The only noticeable 'imbalance' per se is medal whoring in Warzones, because Juggernauts can get protection medals and Marauders can't.

[BarcodeX]

@ Torkepl

Don't forget that this is only a comparison between the SHARED DPS tree for marauder and juggernaut. Each have TWO other trees that they don't share that pretty much separate the classes from one another.

 

It all boils down to personal preference. If you want cool looking skills and awesome looking armor, roll juggy, just say'in

[EasymodeX]

Tbh, I think the Jugg armor sucks dick.

[Hoseman]

1. Juggernauts do not get Backhand in a full Rage spec.

 

2. Juggernauts have significantly less personaly survivability in a Rage spec. A Marauder will last twice as long due to: (a) stealth, (b) Cloak, and © 4% higher damage reduction in ShiiCho. The 5% armor on a Jugg trades the total damage reduction. The Cloak and stealth are superior.

 

3. Juggernauts have superior group utility (AOE taunt, AOE snare, taunt, KB) to compensate.

 

 

Cry. More.

 

When Marauder's have those abilities on CD because they just escaped death from a BH merc,

 

Youre left with wet noodle.

 

Jugg's still have defensive cd's they can pop being rage specc'd in which you failed to mention.

 

 

Youre definitely right when it comes to information being conceived differently.

[EasymodeX]

Jugg's still have defensive cd's they can pop being rage specc'd in which you failed to mention.

 

Ones that Marauders don't have? Really? Like what?

 

Edit:

 

Oh, and if you let a Merc beat you 1v1, you are bad, bad, bad.

Edited January 6, 2012 by EasymodeX

[Hoseman]

first of all itll never be 1 v 1 in a warzone

 

you were saying marauders have defense talents while jugg's have group support?

jugg's also have the same defensive talents marauders have, slightly diffrent, minus the 99% reduction of damage for 5 seconds by sacrificing half your current hp ability i foret the name of.

 

I fail to see your point? Also have you ever seen the damage output of a Merc BH? they are clearly OP.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Hoseman

[BarcodeX]

first of all itll never be 1 v 1 in a warzone

 

Wrong.

[EasymodeX]

jugg's also have the same defensive talents marauders have, slightly diffrent, minus the 99% reduction of damage for 5 seconds by sacrificing half your current hp ability i foret the name of.

 

Really. I didn't know Juggernauts got Cloak of Pain or Force Camo. Man I must be blind because I've never seen them use it in game.

 

 

I fail to see your point? Also have you ever seen the damage output of a Merc BH? they are clearly OP.

 

Why are you using a 1v2 fight to say that Marauders don't have enough defense?

 

And why are you losing against a Merc anyways?

 

Have you ever seen the castbars on a Merc BH? Doesn't that make you wet in your pants?

[GnarlyBurns]

i love anything with a cast bar, im rage and **** things up CONSTANTLY. PEBKAC error.... problem exists bewtween keyboard and chair