Stop the nerf calls for Operatives.

[YpaWinz]

Operatives don't have "too much CC" or "more CC than any other class."

 

Our CC is on the same kind of resolve timers as anyone else's.

 

Hidden Strike, Sleep Dart, Flashbang - all off them fill the resolve bar to full. Which means for the next ...8 seconds? you are immune to anything that causes you to be unable to control your character.

 

The only other stun type ability we have is debilitate on a 30/45 sec cooldown.

 

We then have a snare (talented w/ 2 sec root) that doesn't affect resolve, but that's the same for any snare root.

 

Our burst damage is decent, but even now at lvl 41 I can see it leveling off as I start going up against more even leveled/geared players.

 

I think folks need to understand resolve and then understand when/how to best use their "trinket" ability. Once we shoot our initial load, our best options are to vanish and wait/hope for another solid opener or try to toe-to-toe someone and maybe die. (Assuming equal skill.)

 

It all comes down to situational awareness and your knowledge of your class and that of your opponent.

Edited January 3, 2012 by YpaWinz

[Knifewrench]

Our burst damage is decent, but even now at lvl 41 I can see it leveling off as I start going up against more even leveled/geared players.

 

Get expertise gear at 50. You'll either change your opinion or grasp onto it for life.

[YpaWinz]

Get expertise gear at 50. You'll either change your opinion or grasp onto it for life.

 

Expertise = expertise. If I "get expertise gear" and go up against someone else in expertise gear, it's not going to change.

[Monterone]

If they're taking 'slightly lesser geared duos', either you're exaggerating how lesser geared they are, or they're afk/keyboard turners/have no situational awareness/have special needs. Usually the only way we can kill healers and tanks paying attention is if I harpoon one of the two away from the other and we CC the other to keep him out of the fight while we gang up on the guy. Either that or tell your friend to stop pvping in Assault/Tactics equivalent on Sith and switch to the defensive tree with a shield instead of a generator.

 

We're both at about 8-9% expertise bonus, 1200-1400 main stats. I as a sorc have will at 1400 and endurance at lower, while the jugg is reversed. We both have 5-7 pieces of champion gear, crafted lvl 50 crit purples and hard mode/ops raid gear. The operative who schooled us is in almost full to full champion gear -- probably about 2-3% higher expertise overall. We are also competitive PvPers with PvP experience since the good old days of Ultima Online PvP, some 15 years ago.

 

I understand your wish to sweep this under the rug but it will become impossible to hide away the damage op/scoundrels do by simply calling people noobs. Learn to argue your point, if there is one, without belittling others or assuming what their skill level is.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Monterone

[Torcer]

It's not a question of if BW will nerf operatives, but when, and oh will their tears be sweet.

 

PS. You don't need to Nerf OPS if you just drastically reduced the CD of our crowd control break. The "I WIn" button seems to be 2 OPs stun locking anyone and its cheese to the extreme.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Torcer

[Monterone]

I think folks need to understand resolve and then understand when/how to best use their "trinket" ability. Once we shoot our initial load, our best options are to vanish and wait/hope for another solid opener or try to toe-to-toe someone and maybe die. (Assuming equal skill.)

 

I think that sounds like a brilliant strategy. If we're lucky we should be able to survive to an operative if we pop our trinket, so every two minutes. If we do pop our trinket, then we might be able to get out with a quarter of our health. If you don't... well, they're a rogue class, and they're all such awesome players that no one should really stand a chance, eh?

 

God forbid we save our trinket for the fire or the acid pit -- no you save it for an operative if you want to survive. That doesn't sound wrong to you?

[cs_Kimmo]

Yes we should, do you understand what a rogue class is?

 

 

Here is some moves us OPS have to deal with,

 

Force Choke

 

Knockbacks

 

Force Speed

 

Stuns

 

Bubble

 

Shield

 

Long range snares

 

Dots

 

Heals

 

Other Burst classes

 

Heavy Armor

 

Teamwork

 

Pre-mades

 

 

 

Want me to add all the moves that counter a burst damage class? Want me to tell you what a Agent OP main job is? Want me to tell you we are a 1v1 burst killer, not a AOE, not a tank, not a healer, not a dot class,

 

A support burst damage dps <-----

 

LEARN HOW TO FIGHT A ROGUE TYPE OF CLASS, OR GET OUTTA THE KICTHEN

 

Actually, no you do not. You can stay in stealth 24/7 if you want to. Get your facts straight before placing your fingers on a keyboard.

 

EDIT: This is not WoW, shut the hell up about rogues, kid.

Edited January 3, 2012 by cs_Kimmo

[Knifewrench]

Actually, no you do not. You can stay in stealth 24/7 if you want to. Get your facts straight before placing your fingers on a keyboard.

 

EDIT: This is not WoW, shut the hell up about rogues, kid.

 

I lol'd when I read that long list. It was like he was saying, "There's a lot of things we have to deal with that makes us so difficult to play... things that we're implying nobody else has to deal with! Like... spiders. And Super AIDs."

[specialllama]

SHIV BACKSTAB SHIV BACKSTAB 3k 3k 3k 3k 3k.

 

This class is ruining pvp.

 

 

And you stand still long enough to let that happen, rofl.

[cs_Kimmo]

I lol'd when I read that long list. It was like he was saying, "There's a lot of things we have to deal with that makes us so difficult to play... things that we're implying nobody else has to deal with! Like... spiders. And Super AIDs."

 

Indeed. When there are no challenges between you and facerolling your way to full PvP epics in less than two weeks, you have to make some by digging them out of your ***.

[specialllama]

 

God forbid we save our trinket for the fire or the acid pit -- no you save it for an operative if you want to survive. That doesn't sound wrong to you?

 

So, nerf operatives cos u have better things to save ur trinket for? LOL

[cs_Kimmo]

So, nerf operatives cos u have better things to save ur trinket for? LOL

 

You totally missed his point... you have to make a choice between using the trinket when you get thrown to the acid pit or when an Operative jumps on you and ***** you with 5k crits. And believe me, the choice is not that easy, since both hazards deal the same amount of damage.

[Tindstar]

Actually, no you do not. You can stay in stealth 24/7 if you want to. Get your facts straight before placing your fingers on a keyboard.

 

EDIT: This is not WoW, shut the hell up about rogues, kid.

 

Yea going stealth 24/7 and stading in a corner sure sounds imbalanced..... and its still a rogue class

[Paltu]

And you stand still long enough to let that happen, rofl.

 

It's not a matter of standing still, you get knocked down and are dead before you get back up. Even with using your cool downs to get out of the first CC, your right back in CC and than your dead. That is one of the biggest complaints.

 

50s bracket needs to happen really soon as well. I'd like to see this game go on for awhile, and beat out some of the competition mmos. Sadly, with the current state of things, there really isn't much point for a non lvl 50 to que for pvp. That might (not might, it will) discourage people from playing the game. There is the PvE side, but when everyone is just running around as smugglers/Operatives, again, causes people to lose interest.

[Fufy]

OPs are so OP, nerf please.

[Tindstar]

You totally missed his point... you have to make a choice between using the trinket when you get thrown to the acid pit or when an Operative jumps on you and ***** you with 5k crits. And believe me, the choice is not that easy, since both hazards deal the same amount of damage.

 

NERF THE OPERATIVE THROWING PEOPLE INTO ACID PITS FOR INSTA KILL - wait.....

[Xereck]

As a 50 operative myself in semi champion pvp gear, I can absolutely obliterate people during a knockdown but they are level10-30 noobs in bad gear and are bad players. The 50 sorcs and warriors do not die in a knockdown.

 

If you call for a nerf because:

A) you died to a far higher level player

B) you died to a far higher geared player(especially pvp gear)

 

Then the problem lies in Bioware and their lack of pvp brackets. It needs to go and we need lvl50 only brackets because these nerf cries are going to ruin classes just because your getting dominated by someone 20 levels above you and decked out in champion gear.

 

On the topic of our CC being too strong.

 

Real facts

 

Debilitate - Stun - 45sec CD, can be talented to 30sec

Hidden Strike - Ambush, can be talented to knockdown. Only useable from behind, while stealthed.

Sleep Dart - 8 second incapacitate, breaks on dmg and can only be used from stealth on a target not in combat.

Flashbang Grenade - 60sec CD - Short range(5m) AoE incapacitate, breaks on dmg

Sever Tendon - 12 sec CD - 10m range knife throw - Snare, can be talented to root for 2 seconds.

 

Chain CC

 

Our "sap" or Sleep dart, fills the entire resolve bar making them immune to Hidden strike's knockdown or Debilitates stun. So Sapping before opening is not viable and the dumbest **** you can do.

 

Hidden Strike's knockdown, fills the resolve bar so you cannot follow up with a Debilitate stun to "stun lock" the target as they are immune to all CC.

 

You cannot Hidden strike + debilitate

You cannot Hidden strike + flashbang

You cannot Sleep dart + Hidden strike

 

 

Lastly, our non-opener skills are not that frightening at all and going toe to toe outside of stealth with any class played by a non-braindead person is a death warrant for us in most cases.

 

Our out of stealth combat abilities -

 

Shiv - 6sec CD

Lacerate - No CD but requires TA(tactical advantage) to use, which is generated from Shiv

Collateral Strike - 50% chance to proc when you lacerate a poisoned target - deals a small extra dmg hit and refresh TA, so you can Lacerate again. Cannot proc more than once per 10secs.

Backstab - 9sec CD - can only be used from behind

Acid Blade - adds a poison DoT to your next Backstab or Hidden Strike and adds armour penetration for a few seconds after landing the hit.

Overload shot - no CD, 10m range gun shot - weak dmg compared to blade attacks and spamming it burns energy fast.

 

 

 

Shiv for TA -> Lacerate -> Shiv for TA -> Lacerate

This is our bread and butter. You hope for RNG procs for double Lacerates and you try get behind or CC to get an Acid Blade -> Backstab off.

 

We are a Rogue, stealth, CC, burst and defensive/escape cooldowns. Its clear to anyone who played World of Warcraft that the Operative was modelled after the Rogue in that game.

Warriors are going to get dominant very soon, they are so gear reliant due to weapon damage based attacks scaling with gear so well. You can already see the Marauders in champ gear destroying people in seconds.

Sorcs are already wrecking people and are the most overplayed class. They have as much control in a fight as an Operative while providing high long range damage, which isn't burst based so they can perch on a ramp and just wreck people consistently.

Bounty Hunters I have no clue about, other than that whatever spec focuses on missle spam does some crazy high dmg and the trooper equivalent hurts even worse from my experience.

 

TLDR: Learn a class before you rag about it being OP, the rogue archetype gets the most cries for nerfs in every single mmo ever created. Be thankful at least that we keep the Sorceror population in check!

 

I will say what upsets me is that all of these abilities you have listed above work for you in pvp but for me as a JK Sentinel none of my stuns work in PVP.

 

You claim your not OP and i aggre but however; I rebuttle you are a favorably unbalanced class. As a lvl 50 in full Centurion PVP gear there is an IA Operative on my server Space Slug by the name of Kitty when i see her in a WZ this is what i have to look forward too.

 

"Oh damn Kitty is in here. I make my way to plant the bomb on VS. Kitty procceds with Hidden Strike - Shiv- Backstab next thing i see "You have been defeated. Return to medcenter" Yet you claim you are not UB(Unbalanced) as i have just finished getting ROFLSTOMPED"

 

Another point that you are UB in your Sniper Tree I proceed to begin the encounter with Force Leap ohh well look at that i'm sorry "target is in cover" to my nerd rage. Then i get two shotted by snipe and ambush, wow just wow but you are not UB?

 

Another irritating encounter i get knifed to be stunned use my CC Break only to get flashbanged for another 7 seconds. I am specced into fleetfooted i go to use this ability to be told can not used while stunned OMGWTF as you vanish then hidden strike shiv backstab and i am dead again but your not UB?

 

I wish BIOWARE would take away all your stuns so you could feel my pain as i use my Master Strike while specced into Debilitation only to my shock and awe to see you run away from me. WHY BW WHY DO YOU HATE JK SENTS???!!

 

I honestly dont feel you are OP but I feel you are an unbalanced class that makes me feel like my class is just meant do as much dps as i can before i inevitably die.

 

Let me Guess? Roll a new class? Well I payed 150$ for CE and I want the class I want to play to be just as viable as the class you play in their diffrent play styles and skill thats all I am asking for and i feel thats a fair request.

[Selout]

Lol@OP... having to finish the knock-down animation before you can trinket the opener might be one of the biggest oversights in modern MMO's in regards to PvP balance. Blah Blah Blah... this and that about how your class is fair blah blah blah. At this point if you don't think your class is broken then you are stupid. Sorry. Everyone knows it. You should too if you are any good. Edited January 3, 2012 by Selout

[Tindstar]

It's not a matter of standing still, you get knocked down and are dead before you get back up. Even with using your cool downs to get out of the first CC, your right back in CC and than your dead. That is one of the biggest complaints.

 

50s bracket needs to happen really soon as well. I'd like to see this game go on for awhile, and beat out some of the competition mmos. Sadly, with the current state of things, there really isn't much point for a non lvl 50 to que for pvp. That might (not might, it will) discourage people from playing the game. There is the PvE side, but when everyone is just running around as smugglers/Operatives, again, causes people to lose interest.

 

smugglers/Operatives are the least played class, warzones are drowing in sorc/sage's

[CHRISGG]

Lol@OP... having to finish the knock-down animation before you can trinket the opener .

 

I trinket it instantly every time. Lots and lots of myths about this stuff? Is the Scoundrel animation different or something because I break the Operative one just fine.

[Selout]

I trinket it instantly every time. Lots and lots of myths about this stuff? Is the Scoundrel animation different or something because I break the Operative one just fine.

 

You might want to double-check that "every time part." Guess it's time to put together a fraps showcasing how when you trinket it works every time.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Selout

[Areoss]

Jug/Rage.

 

Scene:

 

Just Sithing around, doing my sith thing.

 

Operative is seen in stealth near by, getting ready for the pounce.

 

Either turn and whack instantly regardless of who you may be fighting (or if your alone).

 

Or wait for the knock down.

 

In the event of a knock down >Stun<.

 

Activate CC Breaker... Force Push.

 

You then have the advantage your self. The Operative is on his ***, and you are now in charge range and saber throw.

 

Charge in and Force Choke. Now you have 100% crit on smash and a very high buff increased damage. Hello 4k+ instant.

 

Operative panics and throws any CC they can, You are immune and are laughing. They try to run... use Chilling Scream.

 

Whack a few times and use Enrage to keep up rage.

 

Use Obliterate and land another smash. Thats 2k+

 

Throw in some Screams, activate a defensive CD if you REALLY need to, and you win.

 

This is all based from my experience to being ganked by an operative. It's great how quick you can scare them instead of yelling OMG!1!!!!111 OP OP OP!!

 

Sure they do burst damage, but... burst class does burst damage.

 

 

TL;DR

 

Use your head, you'll win against predictable routines.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Areoss

[CHRISGG]

You might want to double-check that "every time part."

 

I mean I literally press the keybind the second I get stunned every time and it breaks instantly. You might want to not spread more untrue garbage!!!

[YpaWinz]

You totally missed his point... you have to make a choice between using the trinket when you get thrown to the acid pit or when an Operative jumps on you and ***** you with 5k crits. And believe me, the choice is not that easy, since both hazards deal the same amount of damage.

 

 

Seriously. You have to choose when to trinket anything. If it saves your life, you're going to trinket it. I don't care if it's an operative, assassin, marauder, merc, whatever. If it stops you from dying, that's when you trinket.

 

If Operatives are OP because you have to use your trinket to break their CC, then every class is OP in certain situations.

 

 

EDIT: When are people going to understand that the difference between "overpowered" and "underpowered", more often than not, comes down to situational awareness?

Edited January 3, 2012 by YpaWinz

[kaelthun]

I'm a marauder, I wear medium armor and am a glass cannon. These days I just force camo the hell out when I get the knock from an op. I'm done trying to fight this kind of nonsense. Much like rogues in WoW, just run and return instead of fighting them on their terms. Take em out where you want them instead of on their turf. Not that hard when you slow / immo / dot them up and interrupt

 

Still, not sure what's happening with the 50% insta-knock at lower levels though. Kind of a 'pick and play' kind of targetting game. Suppose it has to be your thing. Not mine. I like my DPS straight up with lots of button pressing happening.