Stop the nerf calls for Operatives.

[Bahll]

I am amazed your aren't bored just doing that all the time....

 

Its worth it for the 3 secs that we get to have our way with you, and watch you run away praying a teammate will save you : P

[Maxxacre]

On the topic of our CC being too strong.

 

Real facts

 

Debilitate - Stun - 45sec CD, can be talented to 30sec

Hidden Strike - Ambush, can be talented to knockdown. Only useable from behind, while stealthed.

Sleep Dart - 8 second incapacitate, breaks on dmg and can only be used from stealth on a target not in combat.

Flashbang Grenade - 60sec CD - Short range(5m) AoE incapacitate, breaks on dmg

Sever Tendon - 12 sec CD - 10m range knife throw - Snare, can be talented to root for 2 seconds.

 

Yes, but looking at the other stealth class, you can see that the CC you just described is actually superior to that of the Assassin/Shadow, which it should probably be more similar to due to its similar role:

 

MORE FACTS:

 

1. Operative - Debilitate - Stun - instant stun on 45sec CD, can be talented to 30sec

 

Shadow equivalent -Force Stun - 1 minute CD instant stun. Can be talented to 50 seconds.

 

VERDICT: Operative wins.

 

 

 

2. Operative - Flashbang Grenade - 60sec CD - 10m range AoE incapacitate on up to 5 targets within 5m, breaks on dmg

 

Shadow equivalent - Force Lift - 1 minute CD @ 2 sec cast time, single target CC. Can be talented to instant cast in Balance spec.

 

VERDICT: Operative wins.

 

 

 

3. Operative - Sleep Dart - 8 second incapacitate, breaks on dmg and can only be used from stealth on a target not in combat.

 

Shadow equivalent - Mind Maze - 8 second incapacitate, breaks on dmg and can only be used from stealth on a target not in combat

 

VERDICT: Equal

 

 

 

4. Operative - Sever Tendon - 12 sec CD - 10m range knife throw - Snare, can be talented to root for 2 seconds.

 

Shadow equivalent - Force Slow - 12 sec CD, can be talented down to 6 sec CD. 9 second snare. Cannot be talented to root.

 

VERDICT: Operative wins.

 

 

 

5. Operative - Hidden Strike - Ambush, can be talented to 3 second knockdown that does not break on damage.. Only useable from behind, while stealthed. Deals high amount of damage. No cooldown.

 

Shadow equivalent - Spinning Kick - 2 second knockdown opener from stealth, deals low damage. 30 second CD. Can be talented to be used out of stealth while in tank spec.

 

VERDICT: Operative wins.

 

 

 

Also consider the fact that the Operative is able to heal himself and has a superior resource for the use of burst damage, and wears medium armor. Then also consider the fact that the Operative is also capable of dealing higher burst damage than the Assassin. It should be clear that if any stealther should have superior CC than the other, it's the Assassin/Shadow that should have it. That's not to say I think they should. In fact, I think the Operative/Scoundrel CC needs to be nerfed only slightly in order to make it a more balanced class.

 

IMO the changes that should be made for balance:

 

1. Do not allow Debilitate to be on a 30 second cooldown. The lowest talented cooldown should be 50 seconds, the same as Shadow/Assassin.

 

2. Do not put Flashbang on an instant cast and AOE unless talent points are spent to do so, just like Force Lift/Whirlwind.

 

3. Have the knockdown effect on Hidden Strike break on damage or reduce it to 2 seconds so it matches the Shadow/Assassin equivalent.

 

I think those small changes would go a long way to balancing the class. I think it would still have the advantage as far as the stealthers go, even with those changes, because it would still have the higher burst damage and the better resource for effective burst, and it would still have the ability to heal itself. But all those factors combined with what is clearly superior CC compared to the other stealth class is just too much IMO.

 

Really though, I think those changes are extremely minor but would go a long way towards balance. You may not be willing to admit that the class you play has such vastly superior CC to anything similar, but many other top level Operatives admit it. Just looking at the skills and the talents, it should be pretty clear. Scale that back just a tiny bit so it's on par with everyone else, and it would be perfectly fair. You're not going to suddenly be playing a gimped class, and you won't still have the most absolutely superior CC in PvP anymore either. Fair for everyone.

[HalcyonSunset]

*Snip*

 

There's some major differences, you can heal during combat by simply attacking with Dark Charge active, our heal is a long cast, easily interrupted ability unless we want to burn a TA, which then it's a slightly shorter cast that can be interrupted.

 

You have a gap closer with force speed, you have a single target taunt and a mass taunt. You have better outside stealth damage. You have an ally tanking ability.

 

Assassins are not exact copies of concealment operatives.

 

If our burst is nerfed in any way, we need to have some more utility added. Preferably some battlefield control, i.e. a gap closer/puller.

 

I understand the hate people have for a class that can kill them quickly, but in WZ's it's a team effort, and regularly I get caught fighting someone and get crushed, fast. I have to blow nearly everything I have just to try and escape because of dots slows roots etc. I have to slam evasion, escape, and cloaking screen. Even then, I get pulled out of stealth easily by aoe damage so I also pop shield probe to be safe. 99% of the time people don't understand that we're using normally 3 to 4 long cooldown abilities to escape, it's not just "herp derp cloaking screen ftw"

 

I have zero problem with them lowering our front loaded damage, but only if we get something in return, because as it stands, we have the least battlefield control, and we are pathetically weak out of stealth. No gap closers, no pulls, no knockbacks. Every one of our stuns fills the resolve bar completely, debilitate, hidden strike, flashbang or sleep dart. Once escape is used, we get rooted and or slowed constantly which = endless kiting. So then we blow all 3 of the other escape abilities and we're essentially out of the fight for 2 minutes unless we want to risk being obliterated.

 

TL,DR version. Go ahead and nerf our burst, but we damn well better get something in return to actually put us on par with everyone else's field control. If we don't have burst we have nothing atm to make us a viable option as every other aspect of operatives is subpar compared to other classes/specs.

[Tindstar]

The operative and its counterpart are a 1vs1 experts (and yes as a 50 operative with pvp gear, I will shred through 2 ppl if they are 20ish, bad geared and dont react well - if I am alone and my target is lvl 50 and not alone, I die to people of average skill and up).

 

Since im a 1vs1 expert and can choose my battles - OFCOURSE im going to target low lvl players running around alone (who then goes here to whine - I expect these to account for the vast majority of posters in this and similar threads) as my first priority, and healers and casters hiding in the back as my second priority.

 

This "issue" will be resolved with the introduction of brackets - which we know are coming when BW estimate they have enough lvl 50s.

 

In any case the best hardcounter to operatives are teamwork - if you're not wandering around alone, you reduce my effeciency in warzones by 80% and we all know that warzones are about winning the damn thing.

[depth_mil]

Yes, but looking at the other stealth class, you can see that the CC you just described is actually superior to that of the Assassin/Shadow, which it should probably be more similar to due to its similar role:

 

Given that shadow/assassins also have the various pvp tank utility skills (which are _extremely_ strong), there's absolutely no way they should have the same cc/burst etc as a class that doesn't. Yes operatives can spec for healing, but there's a difference between "can possibly spec for healing" and "always has pvp tank utility regardless of spec".

[Kyrandis]

Yes, but looking at the other stealth class, you can see that the CC you just described is actually superior to that of the Assassin/Shadow, which it should probably be more similar to due to its similar role:

 

MORE FACTS:

 

1. Operative - Debilitate - Stun - instant stun on 45sec CD, can be talented to 30sec

 

Shadow equivalent -Force Stun - 1 minute CD instant stun. Can be talented to 50 seconds.

 

VERDICT: Operative wins.

 

 

 

2. Operative - Flashbang Grenade - 60sec CD - 10m range AoE incapacitate on up to 5 targets within 5m, breaks on dmg

 

Shadow equivalent - Force Lift - 1 minute CD @ 2 sec cast time, single target CC. Can be talented to instant cast in Balance spec.

 

VERDICT: Operative wins.

 

 

 

3. Operative - Sleep Dart - 8 second incapacitate, breaks on dmg and can only be used from stealth on a target not in combat.

 

Shadow equivalent - Mind Maze - 8 second incapacitate, breaks on dmg and can only be used from stealth on a target not in combat

 

VERDICT: Equal

 

 

 

4. Operative - Sever Tendon - 12 sec CD - 10m range knife throw - Snare, can be talented to root for 2 seconds.

 

Shadow equivalent - Force Slow - 12 sec CD, can be talented down to 6 sec CD. 9 second snare. Cannot be talented to root.

 

VERDICT: Operative wins.

 

 

 

5. Operative - Hidden Strike - Ambush, can be talented to 3 second knockdown that does not break on damage.. Only useable from behind, while stealthed. Deals high amount of damage. No cooldown.

 

Shadow equivalent - Spinning Kick - 2 second knockdown opener from stealth, deals low damage. 30 second CD. Can be talented to be used out of stealth while in tank spec.

 

VERDICT: Operative wins.

 

 

 

Also consider the fact that the Operative is able to heal himself and has a superior resource for the use of burst damage, and wears medium armor. Then also consider the fact that the Operative is also capable of dealing higher burst damage than the Assassin. It should be clear that if any stealther should have superior CC than the other, it's the Assassin/Shadow that should have it. That's not to say I think they should. In fact, I think the Operative/Scoundrel CC needs to be nerfed only slightly in order to make it a more balanced class.

 

IMO the changes that should be made for balance:

 

1. Do not allow Debilitate to be on a 30 second cooldown. The lowest talented cooldown should be 50 seconds, the same as Shadow/Assassin.

 

2. Do not put Flashbang on an instant cast and AOE unless talent points are spent to do so, just like Force Lift/Whirlwind.

 

3. Have the knockdown effect on Hidden Strike break on damage or reduce it to 2 seconds so it matches the Shadow/Assassin equivalent.

 

I think those small changes would go a long way to balancing the class. I think it would still have the advantage as far as the stealthers go, even with those changes, because it would still have the higher burst damage and the better resource for effective burst, and it would still have the ability to heal itself. But all those factors combined with what is clearly superior CC compared to the other stealth class is just too much IMO.

 

Really though, I think those changes are extremely minor but would go a long way towards balance. You may not be willing to admit that the class you play has such vastly superior CC to anything similar, but many other top level Operatives admit it. Just looking at the skills and the talents, it should be pretty clear. Scale that back just a tiny bit so it's on par with everyone else, and it would be perfectly fair. You're not going to suddenly be playing a gimped class, and you won't still have the most absolutely superior CC in PvP anymore either. Fair for everyone.

 

Your facts are correct until this

 

Utility/Control

 

1- Movement

Shadow - Burst of Speed

Scoundrel - Talent that increases movement speed slightly after using Dirty Kick or vanish.

 

Shadow Wins

 

2 - Physics

Shadow - AoE Knockback 5m if Im not mistaken.

Scoundrel - Knockdown moves a player a whopping foot or so.

 

Shadow Wins

 

Our class cannot use 2 CC's in conjuction with each other until around 11 seconds after the knockdown(CC imunity timer does not start until after the CC ends). Your class is quite superior at catching us during stealth because your in stealth CC does not use the entire resolve bar like mine does. So you may immediately open up and then force stun us after you catch us(albeit 50 second cooldown). We cannot Dart and Knock you down. We Vanish, you Vanish and proceed to do it again without force stun this time. We cannot put out the damage you guys can because we rely on our opener for damage. Backblast has a cooldown your Backstab does not(it costs a lot of your resource though).

 

All of this gives your superior Survivability.

 

As for my resource, having started a shadow(because I have a bad feeling about my class getting nerfed into complete uselessness) your resource is more akin to rogues then mine is. Yours also regens considerably faster then mine(5 Energy per second which the regen lowers 4,3,2 as it gets lower). While I do have Pugnacity which adds an additional 2-3 energy per second its still no where as fast as yours.

 

This gives you superior Sustained Damage.

 

I actually skip huttball because its a single objective game(IE teams travel together) where I have 0 knockbacks, no movement bursts and cannot effective carry the ball.

 

The only thing I am good at in huttball is killing people in the middle on the ramps. But if there are 2 of them with knockbacks it really doesn't matter where I stand ill fall off.

 

Any decent player with an AoE will know to AoE where I vanish as well, because I do not have burst of speed. Thus I really cannot go far when I do so.

 

Edit: Basically if your going to put your class on par with my class's CC capabilities you best hand over your advantages as well.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Kyrandis

[voidsurvivor]

IMO the changes that should be made for balance:

 

1. Do not allow Debilitate to be on a 30 second cooldown. The lowest talented cooldown should be 50 seconds, the same as Shadow/Assassin.

 

2. Do not put Flashbang on an instant cast and AOE unless talent points are spent to do so, just like Force Lift/Whirlwind.

 

3. Have the knockdown effect on Hidden Strike break on damage or reduce it to 2 seconds so it matches the Shadow/Assassin equivalent.

 

I think those small changes would go a long way to balancing the class.

 

Vastly superior cc? You conveniently left out some details there, didn't you? Force Stun and Force Lift have 30m range, while our only stun Dirty Kick is limited to 4m range. Yours is also instant, while we have to stand still to suffer through an unnecessary long animation. In addition to this, scoundrel's Flash Grenade is on a 90 second timer.

 

Your class has a 15% run speed bonus in addition to Force Run. Your interrupt can be reduced to 10 sec cd. You also get a k/b. Oh, and you can spec into a pull, if you feel like it. Perhaps you should actually play a scoundrel, before you claim we have vastly superior cc. Shadows wipe the floor with scoundrels out of stealth.

[Kyrandis]

Vastly superior cc? You conveniently left out some details there, didn't you? Force Stun and Force Lift have 30m range, while our only stun Dirty Kick is limited to 4m range. Yours is also instant, while we have to stand still to suffer through an unnecessary long animation. In addition to this, scoundrel's Flash Grenade is on a 90 second timer.

 

Your class has a 15% run speed bonus in addition to Force Run. Your interrupt can be reduced to 10 sec cd. You also get a k/b. Oh, and you can spec into a pull, if you feel like it. Perhaps you should actually play a scoundrel, before you claim we have vastly superior cc. Shadows wipe the floor with scoundrels out of stealth.

 

You should also mention that Dirty kick also roots us in place during the animation.

 

And Flash Grenade has a 10m range as well as Tranq Dart

Edited January 2, 2012 by Kyrandis

[torhent]

Sorry folks but you ain't gonna see the nerf bat on Operatives or Scoundrels. All throughout Beta the class has been honed to being a good build now. You aren't going to see Operatives/Scoundrels top the DPS/heal charts when Commandos/Mercenaries/Sages/Sorcorers are level 50.

 

The problem is again, people lack of play ability and not being able to figure out how to actually PVP.

 

So to help you guys out this is how you deal with Operatives/Scoundrels:

 

1st) You go in packs of 3. You don't run around like some hero by yourself with no supporting characters and not expect to get owned by a stealther.

 

2nd) You get yourself leveled above 35 so you can actually fight. Believe it or now the ability to stun a player comes into play at 36. And guess what at level 36 a lot of classes get abilities to counter stealthers.

 

3rd) You deploy you spy droids to pop open stealthers

 

4th) Place a Force Dot on the stealther so they cannot remove the dot. During that time the stealther cannot clear the dot and is extremely vulnerable.

 

5th) Use AE's. As soon as an AE hits a stealther they can't stealth for a time. If you are laying down AE fire you just owned the stealther for a time.

 

6th) This is key if you want to own a stealther. When you hit a stealther and you see him run up the ramp in Alderaan, when you see him run behind a wall in Voidstar or when you see him drop in the pit you go after him. Why, because he's waiting to get out of combat to get out of stealth. Why do you think Stealthers run away after every single attack? Its to get themselves out of combat so they can restealth.

 

On my server, I've seen very little people make a concerted effort to stop stealthers and it shows. From reading the thread the amount of people calling for the nerf, I have serious doubts they actually understand how to fight a stealther and are calling for a nerf than actually learning how to play the game.

 

You know how you kill a stealther, you fight them out of stealth. You follow the 6 things I listed above you can kill a stealther very easy.

 

Of course if a nerf bat does come, I relish it. Why? Because the stealthers other damage abilites will get raised up. I could handle having a lot more out of stealth damage capacity and I could handle having a lot more AE capability to easily compete with the other DPS calsses in Warzones. Every changes has a counter change, be careful what you ask for.

[Atrox]

Keep the nerf calls coming for Operatives.

[BobaFurz]

Good post...the class is very squishy, relies on crits and stealth aswell on the ability cooldowns. Operatives get kicked out of stealth a lot of times due to all the AOE CC or dmg is going on. Iam sure some will try this class, but they will see that dmg alone wont help to succeed. The class is not a rambo class, but does significant dmg to lower levels. Edited January 2, 2012 by BobaFurz

[torhent]

Good post...the class is very squishy, relies on crits and stealth aswell on the ability cooldowns. Operatives get kicked out of stealth a lot of times due to all the AOE CC or dmg is going on. Iam sure some will try this class, but they will see that dmg alone wont help to succeed. The class is not a rambo class, but does significant dmg to lower levels.

 

Basically, until a scoundrel hits 36, the class is all but useless in PVP save as a healer. The issue is you have level 20's getting owned by level 36's in a warzone and they can't undersand that their lack of Crowd Control and Abilities is why they are getting owned.

 

Put in brackets and you fix the problem. I will destroy a level 13 in a warzone. Going against a level 38 is another story.

[Moolah]

Bounty Hunters I have no clue about, other than that whatever spec focuses on missle spam does some crazy high dmg and the trooper equivalent hurts even worse from my experience.

 

TLDR: Learn a class before you rag about it being OP, the rogue archetype gets the most cries for nerfs in every single mmo ever created. Be thankful at least that we keep the Sorceror population in check!

 

I'd like to stay neutral in this discussion, but this contradiction had to be quoted.

[Blazehound]

Ah yes. because once your knockdowned, you are also stunned for at least one second, possibly more, haven't had the chance to see the length of time myself. Break the stun using your 2 minute cooldown skill and wait three seconds for your character to lumber up like they forgot someone is trying to stick a sharp peice of metal in their back.

 

You finally get up, and hey, now you fall down because the operative has been spamming his attacks so fast you lost all your HPs, and the shield you put up just crapped out because he used another high damage attack.

 

 

 

Cloaking itself is very powerful, and it isn't possible as far as I can tell, to push a player out of it, even if you damage or stun them. If taking damage removed cloak, that would at least be some limited condolence prize because it would at least give other players a chance to kill operatives before they use their instant-death combo.

[E_c_c_e]

Say what you want but I am 100% sure that this class needs a huge nerf or major overhaul...

 

Too much cc on top of ridiculous dmg with and without stealth...if I get bursted down from 12k hp to 0 in 2-3 seconds with full lvl 40 gear and cd's up something is just wrong (as a Marauder)...If they have the opener (which they usually do) it's just impossible to win the fight...even if I obfuscate him, pop bladeward and cloak of pain, use undying rage, a medpack, force choke to get some time for other skills to come back up and force camouflage mid fight to get an "opener" on him again..no chance...because once he's had the opener I'm a dead man (usually I'm already dead immediately after the opener because of the ludicrous dmg)...I pride myself to be someone who tries to learn his class properly and use everything I can to have the upper hand in a fight..but against Operatives I can't do anything whatsoever...as long as he's not on 10% hp, dc'ed or straight dumb he will ALWAYS win the fight...

 

There is that one guy on our server that has full pvp gear and he can easily kill an entire team without breaking a sweat...wherever he's at my mates die within milliseconds, if ever he gets into a tight spot he just aoe stuns, then roots, then stuns or vanishes...it's a disgrace to pvp...

 

yes ofc the operatives are saying l2p our class is fine..but seriously try to fight yourself with another class that doesn't have a trillion of stuns and burst and you will see that your class is just ridiculous atm...

[Equilibrio]

Browsing thru the first 3 pages of this forum i have found 1 post about Operators made by YOU.

 

So who is constantly asking for operator nerfs? What is the point of this thread other then making ppl talk about YOU?

 

Go play your operator and stop opening pointless threads to boost your ego.

 

BTW when you are killing others lvl 10-30 as you said ..... its not cause WE are "low lvl noob baddies" as you put it, its because you are a high lvl lifeless ........

 

Lets see how clean we will wipe the floor with your operator when all the "NORMALs" get to lvl 50 and start owning you.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Equilibrio

[Tindstar]

blah blah blah

 

Yes a lvl 50 *anything* in full PvP gear should beat a lvl 40 - works as intended.

 

Now stop running around alone and you'll notice a huge decline in operative provocted deaths.

[Lastot]

Op's are no more overpowered than any other class.

[Blazehound]

Nobody loses control of their character. The knockdown FILLS your resolve bar. Understand?

I don't think you understand how obscenely effective knockdown is. Rather then an instant jump up after the brief stun, your character lumbers upwards for a few seconds, meaning that a good operative/scoundrel can kill you before you can even pop off a knockback or shield.

[PaZZo]

i guess all this operatives that say "omgomg a KB ****s me op i'm just melee" tend to forget they do have one little ranged combo that goes like cover--> explosive probe ---> snipe or even regular attack, 3 seconds needed (3.5 with snipe). And that can easily finish off the HP remaining from the alpha opener on non tanks.

 

And god forbids 2 operatives team up and just go around the map bum****** people, it's just brutal.

Edited January 2, 2012 by PaZZo

[DeltaThirteen]

So I'm just going to link this here too, I keep seeing myths/lies posted still.

 

 

So I have an idea. Roll around with a tank that knows what they're doing. Guard alone will force Scoundrels/Ops to rethink their targets. Harpoon, easily applied dots, stealth scanning/aoes and being fairly hard to kill all add to that. Most of the complaints here are the same ones I saw for Rogues in WoW and funny enough, Stealths in Nuclear Dawn, Covert Ops in Enemy Territory/Quake Wars, Spies in Team Fortress and so on. It reads sort of like, "Guys I have no situational awareness, no attention to detail, no reflexes to speak of, but it's obviously the other guy's fault.".

[rlhaas]

So I'm just going to link this here too, I keep seeing myths/lies posted still.

 

So I have an idea. Roll around with a tank that knows what they're doing. Guard alone will force Scoundrels/Ops to rethink their targets. Harpoon, easily applied dots, stealth scanning/aoes and being fairly hard to kill all add to that. Most of the complaints here are the same ones I saw for Rogues in WoW and funny enough, Stealths in Nuclear Dawn, Covert Ops in Enemy Territory/Quake Wars, Spies in Team Fortress and so on. It reads sort of like, "Guys I have no situational awareness, no attention to detail, no reflexes to speak of, but it's obviously the other guy's fault.".

 

That's a pretty cool vid, thanks for sharing. I did notice that although the resolve actually worked (with someone who obviously knew the knockdown was coming) the Scoundrel was still able to DPS the crap out of the Sage regardless. Ha! Thanks though, for reals.

[Tindstar]

That's a pretty cool vid, thanks for sharing. I did notice that although the resolve actually worked (with someone who obviously knew the knockdown was coming) the Scoundrel was still able to DPS the crap out of the Sage regardless. Ha! Thanks though, for reals.

 

And I noticed he, a lvl 50 operative (1vs1 expert class) had PvP gear and was fighting a lvl 43 Sage - if he had not been able to DPS the Sage down under those circumstances, something would have been wrong.

[DeltaThirteen]

And I noticed he, a lvl 50 operative (1vs1 expert class) had PvP gear and was fighting a lvl 43 Sage - if he had not been able to DPS the Sage down under those circumstances, something would have been wrong.

 

Beat me to it. Yeah he did, it was just a demo thing. If I think about it, I'll get him to fraps some more stuff showing what happens when a tank is doing their job or something too. Vanguards make everything funnier

[thefishdude]

Given that shadow/assassins also have the various pvp tank utility skills (which are _extremely_ strong), there's absolutely no way they should have the same cc/burst etc as a class that doesn't. Yes operatives can spec for healing, but there's a difference between "can possibly spec for healing" and "always has pvp tank utility regardless of spec".

 

This is a case of knowing a class before posting a deceptive comment about it. Yes, all shadows have combat tech, which provides 150% armor boost and some small amounts of healing. However, I'm speced in Infiltration, so using combat tech actually nerfs the majority of damaging dealing abiliities. So, I become a semi tank with no damage....not too viable. Also, did I mention that it takes 50% of force points to activate it.

 

 

 

For the OP, better bracketing would help a lot, but you guys do have a serious advantage in the cc department.