Vanguard/Powertech do everything better

[TheLakers]

Been watching this Vanguard average 320k dmg, 30-40k protection and 10 medals every single warzone.

 

They tank better than Guardians

 

They DPS better than Guardians.

 

They get a SPEED BONUS talent, a charge and a freaking PULL ability, yet a JEDI Guardian doesn't even know how to force pull. At least give us this ability in the talent tree or something.

Edited January 1, 2012 by TheLakers

[Ledden]

I've finished maxing my Guardian and just started a Vanguard. From watching Vanguards @ 50's and playing one 23 levels in, it seems like they do everything better.

[Marak]

So play a Vanguard/Powertech. They need more people playing them anyway.

[TheLakers]

So play a Vanguard/Powertech. They need more people playing them anyway.

 

No.

 

And the point stands.

[Marak]

No your point doesn't stand.

 

If you prefer the Vanguard.. play the Vanguard and stop whining. Really your thread does nothing to better this class. All you are doing is complaining about class balance for a game that hasn't even been released for 2 full weeks yet. Nevermind the holidays, which I'm sure some of the guys rightfully had off. If there is any tweaking to be done, it will be done. You aren't enlightening anyone.

[Hulkster]

No your point doesn't stand.

 

If you prefer the Vanguard.. play the Vanguard and stop whining. Really your thread does nothing to better this class. All you are doing is complaining about class balance for a game that hasn't even been released for 2 full weeks yet. Nevermind the holidays, which I'm sure some of the guys rightfully had off. If there is any tweaking to be done, it will be done. You aren't enlightening anyone.

 

Of course it stands.

 

The Vanguard does do everything much better than the guardian.

 

If people don't bring this up, then it won't change.

 

The game is only two weeks old, so the devs need feedback.

 

It's not a solution to tell everyone to re-roll to a better class.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Hulkster

[Marak]

I don't think any of you understand how class balance works. Developers don't read the forums and go by whiny anecdotal evidence posts. They have hard numbers that they look at across the ENTIRE sample size, as opposed to a select few warfronts/operations. And then they tweak accordingly.

 

All you guys are doing is creating a toxic environment that will turn players away and have barely a minimal, if any, effect on the development process.

 

Edit: Not to mention none of you have any sort of relevant evidence to back up your claims that the Almighty Vanguards/PTs are so much better other than a few leader board screenshots that have absolutely no scientific relevancy at all as they don't even tell half of the picture.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Marak

[TheLakers]

It's pretty obvious Vanguard make better tanks and the fact that they have a pull while Guardians don't is another obvious fact. As far as DPS, Vanguards are consistently putting out more than Guardians in Warzones.

 

You have given zero evidence to refute said point and have posted nothing but weak strawman/ad hom's.

Edited January 1, 2012 by TheLakers

[dougan]

Using WZ numbers as evidence for class balance issues is and has always been stupid. And, honestly, Guardians are an extremely strong PvP class in their current state--I don't know what you guys could possibly be complaining about.

 

The problem is in PvE...

 

Mob pulls where the group is all ranged and are too spread out to hit all of them. So, you have to run around hitting each one individually over and over--Vanguard just has to tab through and pew pew.

 

Bosses that have jumps/leaps to allies that occur more frequently than force leap can be used, so, you have to run after him and whack him with your saber.

 

Moving ranged bosses requires line of sight. During that time, a Van can pop out and build threat, where a Guardian only has saber throw to do that.

 

Now, as I've said elsewhere, Guardian tanks are equally as effective as Vanguards when played well--you just have to bust your *** whereas Vanguards can just stand still and shoot.

 

Solution: make their damaging abilities 10m range.

Edited January 1, 2012 by dougan

[Marak]

"It's pretty obvious" doesn't hold up in scientific/mathematical debates, sorry.

 

And I've already gone over the whole warzone leaderboards being utter crap at depicting anything of relevancy. Ranged classes padding leaderboards. This is new, exciting, and completely useful information as it's totally depicting efficiency of said damage and it's totally accounting for skill/gear levels of everyone involved and it's totally accounting for the undefinable variables such as pocket healers and team strategic play.

 

Do you even know what a strawman argument or ad hominem attack are? Because clearly you don't. I haven't refuted any claims in this thread because that is the foundation of my argument. You, nor I, have any sort of empirical evidence for or against any sort of class balance. That does not constitute a strawman argument. That's a "we have no data" argument.

 

And at what point was there an ad hominem? I haven't addressed you directly at all in this thread. I've only addressed the thread itself.

 

The man behind the curtain has all the answers. They aren't purposefully holding anyone down. They aren't neglecting anything, as they haven't had time to neglect anything. As we move forward things will inevitably change, as is the nature of MMOs. The 30 posts a day on the perceived class imbalance on the Guardian forum alone is tired and pointless as there are two positive options to choose from and neither of them demand a vocal response. 1) Reroll to a class that you perceive as better (and for humor's sake, take note of how they aren't as super duper awesome as you initially thought) or 2) Wait it out.

 

Threads like these spread negatively throughout the community and being as how this game is 2 weeks old that is detrimental to said community. All the doomsday naysayers portray the JK/SWs as unplayable and curious people who find themselves looking for guidance find themselves on this forum, only to be affronted by the mass "THIS CLASS SUCKS" hysteria, which is blatantly untrue and it only stems from unscientific direct comparisons to other classes and not judging the class on its own merit.

 

Are there problems that this, and every other, class is facing? Absolutely. This game is brand new. What do you expect? Is it enjoyable and playable? Absolutely. Will it only get better? 8-ball says, "Odds are in your favor".

[AdamLKvist]

"It's pretty obvious" doesn't hold up in scientific/mathematical debates, sorry.

 

And I've already gone over the whole warzone leaderboards being utter crap at depicting anything of relevancy. Ranged classes padding leaderboards. This is new, exciting, and completely useful information as it's totally depicting efficiency of said damage and it's totally accounting for skill/gear levels of everyone involved and it's totally accounting for the undefinable variables such as pocket healers and team strategic play.

 

Do you even know what a strawman argument or ad hominem attack are? Because clearly you don't. I haven't refuted any claims in this thread because that is the foundation of my argument. You, nor I, have any sort of empirical evidence for or against any sort of class balance. That does not constitute a strawman argument. That's a "we have no data" argument.

 

And at what point was there an ad hominem? I haven't addressed you directly at all in this thread. I've only addressed the thread itself.

 

The man behind the curtain has all the answers. They aren't purposefully holding anyone down. They aren't neglecting anything, as they haven't had time to neglect anything. As we move forward things will inevitably change, as is the nature of MMOs. The 30 posts a day on the perceived class imbalance on the Guardian forum alone is tired and pointless as there are two positive options to choose from and neither of them demand a vocal response. 1) Reroll to a class that you perceive as better (and for humor's sake, take note of how they aren't as super duper awesome as you initially thought) or 2) Wait it out.

 

Threads like these spread negatively throughout the community and being as how this game is 2 weeks old that is detrimental to said community. All the doomsday naysayers portray the JK/SWs as unplayable and curious people who find themselves looking for guidance find themselves on this forum, only to be affronted by the mass "THIS CLASS SUCKS" hysteria, which is blatantly untrue and it only stems from unscientific direct comparisons to other classes and not judging the class on its own merit.

 

Are there problems that this, and every other, class is facing? Absolutely. This game is brand new. What do you expect? Is it enjoyable and playable? Absolutely. Will it only get better? 8-ball says, "Odds are in your favor".

 

And this thread and all others like it can now be closed since all have been said in above post.

[dougan]

"It's pretty obvious" doesn't hold up in scientific/mathematical debates, sorry.

 

And I've already gone over the whole warzone leaderboards being utter crap at depicting anything of relevancy. Ranged classes padding leaderboards. This is new, exciting, and completely useful information as it's totally depicting efficiency of said damage and it's totally accounting for skill/gear levels of everyone involved and it's totally accounting for the undefinable variables such as pocket healers and team strategic play.

 

Do you even know what a strawman argument or ad hominem attack are? Because clearly you don't. I haven't refuted any claims in this thread because that is the foundation of my argument. You, nor I, have any sort of empirical evidence for or against any sort of class balance. That does not constitute a strawman argument. That's a "we have no data" argument.

 

And at what point was there an ad hominem? I haven't addressed you directly at all in this thread. I've only addressed the thread itself.

 

The man behind the curtain has all the answers. They aren't purposefully holding anyone down. They aren't neglecting anything, as they haven't had time to neglect anything. As we move forward things will inevitably change, as is the nature of MMOs. The 30 posts a day on the perceived class imbalance on the Guardian forum alone is tired and pointless as there are two positive options to choose from and neither of them demand a vocal response. 1) Reroll to a class that you perceive as better (and for humor's sake, take note of how they aren't as super duper awesome as you initially thought) or 2) Wait it out.

 

Threads like these spread negatively throughout the community and being as how this game is 2 weeks old that is detrimental to said community. All the doomsday naysayers portray the JK/SWs as unplayable and curious people who find themselves looking for guidance find themselves on this forum, only to be affronted by the mass "THIS CLASS SUCKS" hysteria, which is blatantly untrue and it only stems from unscientific direct comparisons to other classes and not judging the class on its own merit.

 

Are there problems that this, and every other, class is facing? Absolutely. This game is brand new. What do you expect? Is it enjoyable and playable? Absolutely. Will it only get better? 8-ball says, "Odds are in your favor".

 

Dude, you need to calm down a little. Is this your first time looking at any class forum ever? What do you expect? More people come to the forums to complain about than praise a class.

 

It's not like BW takes these posts into account, anyway, which is really all that matters. What do I care if people don't roll my class because they can't think for themselves--and are stupid enough to believe what people post on here rather than try the class themselves?

 

Take a pill and avoid the forums for awhile.

[Marak]

Dude, you need to calm down a little. Is this your first time looking at any class forum ever? What do you expect? More people come to the forums to complain about than praise a class.

 

It's not like BW takes these posts into account, anyway, which is really all that matters. What do I care if people don't roll my class because they can't think for themselves--and are stupid enough to believe what people post on here rather than try the class themselves?

 

Take a pill and avoid the forums for awhile.

 

You confuse me for someone upset. People just need to know that these threads are garbage and I, for one, don't want ours to be the Mage Forum of WoW. Stand for a better community.

[dougan]

You confuse me for someone upset. People just need to know that these threads are garbage and I, for one, don't want ours to be the Mage Forum of WoW. Stand for a better community.

 

Lol, I've long ago given up any hope of a better community.

[TheLakers]

"It's pretty obvious" doesn't hold up in scientific/mathematical debates, sorry.

 

Refute it then. Sorry if you can't, because you haven't.

 

And I've already gone over the whole warzone leaderboards being utter crap at depicting anything of relevancy. Ranged classes padding leaderboards. This is new, exciting, and completely useful information as it's totally depicting efficiency of said damage and it's totally accounting for skill/gear levels of everyone involved and it's totally accounting for the undefinable variables such as pocket healers and team strategic play.

 

None of those came into play regarding the Vanguards I've seen put up ridiculous numbers in WZs. The PVE issues, which have been mentioned on the previous page also persist.

 

 

The man behind the curtain has all the answers. They aren't purposefully holding anyone down. They aren't neglecting anything, as they haven't had time to neglect anything.

 

Point in case: Strawman.

 

But keep rambling.

 

 

As we move forward things will inevitably change, as is the nature of MMOs. The 30 posts a day on the perceived class imbalance on the Guardian forum alone is tired and pointless as there are two positive options to choose from and neither of them demand a vocal response.

 

1) Calm down

 

2) It's not a perceived class imbalance, it's an obvious one

 

1) Reroll to a class that you perceive as better (and for humor's sake, take note of how they aren't as super duper awesome as you initially thought) or 2) Wait it out.

 

1) No

 

2) We have no choice. Acting like everything is hunky-dory isn't going to get things balanced.

 

Threads like these spread negatively throughout the community and being as how this game is 2 weeks old that is detrimental to said community. All the doomsday naysayers portray the JK/SWs as unplayable and curious people who find themselves looking for guidance find themselves on this forum, only to be affronted by the mass "THIS CLASS SUCKS" hysteria, which is blatantly untrue and it only stems from unscientific direct comparisons to other classes and not judging the class on its own merit.

 

Using words like unscientific and hysteria in reference to a MMO and 'threads like these' is pretty hilarious. Go on.

 

And again, you claim I lack 'unscientific' then say things like "blantantly untrue" without providing any evidence, scientifically, empirically, or in anecdote.

 

Are there problems that this, and every other, class is facing? Absolutely. This game is brand new. What do you expect? Is it enjoyable and playable? Absolutely. Will it only get better? 8-ball says, "Odds are in your favor".

 

No, Guardians at the moment aren't facing the same problems as Vanguards or Sages. Laughable to even imply as much.

Edited January 1, 2012 by TheLakers

[Marak]

Refute what? Your lack of a well-presented argument backed with data and facts? I can't refute anything for the same reason you can't present a well-presented argument with data and facts.

 

Not a single point of what you just posted was backed by anything remotely resembling empirical value. Not a single one. You're spinning the wheels on that hysteria train.

 

If we're going to fight an anecdotal battle--

 

I feel that the Guardian/Juggernaut class is reasonably strong in PvP. I, and other Guards I have seen are frequently atop the medals count and I feel that we provide adequate PvP utility. In PvE, I find it obvious that all tanks are nearly identical except in the category of producing initial agro. I feel that Vanguards have an easier time due to their ability to use more frequent ranged attacks, but I also feel that this is a non-issue 5 seconds later as I can obviously still run around and pull adequate multi-mob agro. I do not consider this to be a detriment to the Guard class as we have other tools in our toolbox.

 

Now what?

[TheLakers]

Oh and just as you keep spouting the 'go ahead and re-roll then' rhetoric. You can get out of this here thread if whats being discussed aren't up to your imaginary standards.

 

I can't refute anything for the same reason you can't present a well-presented argument with data and facts.

 

Exactly you can't and haven't refuted anything I presented. And I in fact, did present facts based on the current state of implementation.

 

Not a single point of what you just posted was backed by anything remotely resembling empirical value. Not a single one. You're spinning the wheels on that hysteria train.

 

Hey look, it's the crow calling the raven black.

Edited January 1, 2012 by TheLakers

[Marak]

Oh and just as you keep spouting the 'go ahead and re-roll then' rhetoric. You can get out of this here thread if whats being discussed aren't up to your imaginary standards.

 

I don't have a problem with my class. Just my classmates.

 

Exactly you can't and haven't refuted anything I presented. And I in fact, did present facts based on the current state of implementation.

No you haven't. At all. Show us numbers. Show us anything other than "it's obvious". You aren't understanding how "empirical" works.

 

Edit: And the burden of proofs lies on you as you are the one with a claim to be had. My argument is that no one has any level of proof at this point. You seem to think that by my admittance that I have no proof that we are on par with everyone that you are correct in your assertion that we are not on par. That's not how this works. You have the claim. You need to prove it. And you can't. You, nor I or anyone else on these forums, have any way of gathering adequate empirical data for an adequate proof. All you are doing is flailing your arms around and being loud.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Marak

[vekkth]

I don't have a problem with my class. Just my classmates.

 

 

No you haven't. At all. Show us numbers. Show us anything other than "it's obvious". You aren't understanding how "empirical" works.

 

Edit: And the burden of proofs lies on you as you are the one with a claim to be had. My argument is that no one has any level of proof at this point. You seem to think that by my admittance that I have no proof that we are on par with everyone that you are correct in your assertion that we are not on par. That's not how this works. You have the claim. You need to prove it. And you can't. You, nor I or anyone else on these forums, have any way of gathering adequate empirical data for an adequate proof. All you are doing is flailing your arms around and being loud.

 

29 vanguard doing 320k in a warzone. I can throw you a screenshot. more of it, he can do that repeatedly and with a stable result. JK/SW can not, while they are the same role exactly - heavy armored tank/damage dealer. you are just lost in yourself, dude, as much as other people who claim JK/SW are balanced. every decent players knows it is not. And there is no need to whine or something - just keep devs and others informed that the issue stands.

 

Oh and devs read forums, not directly, but they have people who read forums and form weekly reports about it.

[TheRealBrave]

They really are way better in PvP and it's not even close. Vanguards/Powertech can go a hybrid spec where they pick up the charge from the Tank tree and then get the level 20 melee ability from their DPS tree (non-shared tree) and have better durability and significantly more DPS than Guardians - all while having better utility. (Grapple / Harpoon)

 

Heck, I was able to put out 300k damage on my Powertech when he was level 10.

Edited January 1, 2012 by TheRealBrave

[Aerrus]

"It's pretty obvious" doesn't hold up in scientific/mathematical debates, sorry.

 

And I've already gone over the whole warzone leaderboards being utter crap at depicting anything of relevancy. Ranged classes padding leaderboards. This is new, exciting, and completely useful information as it's totally depicting efficiency of said damage and it's totally accounting for skill/gear levels of everyone involved and it's totally accounting for the undefinable variables such as pocket healers and team strategic play.

 

Do you even know what a strawman argument or ad hominem attack are? Because clearly you don't. I haven't refuted any claims in this thread because that is the foundation of my argument. You, nor I, have any sort of empirical evidence for or against any sort of class balance. That does not constitute a strawman argument. That's a "we have no data" argument.

 

And at what point was there an ad hominem? I haven't addressed you directly at all in this thread. I've only addressed the thread itself.

 

The man behind the curtain has all the answers. They aren't purposefully holding anyone down. They aren't neglecting anything, as they haven't had time to neglect anything. As we move forward things will inevitably change, as is the nature of MMOs. The 30 posts a day on the perceived class imbalance on the Guardian forum alone is tired and pointless as there are two positive options to choose from and neither of them demand a vocal response. 1) Reroll to a class that you perceive as better (and for humor's sake, take note of how they aren't as super duper awesome as you initially thought) or 2) Wait it out.

 

Threads like these spread negatively throughout the community and being as how this game is 2 weeks old that is detrimental to said community. All the doomsday naysayers portray the JK/SWs as unplayable and curious people who find themselves looking for guidance find themselves on this forum, only to be affronted by the mass "THIS CLASS SUCKS" hysteria, which is blatantly untrue and it only stems from unscientific direct comparisons to other classes and not judging the class on its own merit.

 

Are there problems that this, and every other, class is facing? Absolutely. This game is brand new. What do you expect? Is it enjoyable and playable? Absolutely. Will it only get better? 8-ball says, "Odds are in your favor".

 

This guy gets it. This post needs to be copypasta'd into every whine thread. Marak, you are my hero.

[Pwnzie]

Threads like these spread negatively throughout the community and being as how this game is 2 weeks old that is detrimental to said community. All the doomsday naysayers portray the JK/SWs as unplayable and curious people who find themselves looking for guidance find themselves on this forum, only to be affronted by the mass "THIS CLASS SUCKS" hysteria, which is blatantly untrue and it only stems from unscientific direct comparisons to other classes and not judging the class on its own merit.

 

And YOUR opinion on it is in any way scientific or truer than anybody else? I can and I will dismiss it using your own objections, you're basically dismissing yourself and using rethoric is not helping you.

 

It's a player's right to come here in the JK forum and say if they feel there's something that isn't working right with the class or whatever else in the game. YOU (or anybody else) have no right to tell people to shut up or "stop being negative" cause they arent speaking that well of one class.

 

Don't think anybody says the class is unplayable either, it's playable alright, but there's problem to be fixed. It aint hysteria, if so many people come here and speak up of their problems, evidently there's a problem. What exactly makes people like you any righter than any other user on the subject, that you don't post with any "negativity" perhaps? You kidding? Your post and others have the usual "you guys are whiners and noobcake" all over the place, if thats not "negativity"...

[The_Sailormoon]

Really? It is clearly obvious that people think VGs/PTs are identical to JGs. I can make a level 10 VG and toss out 3 different AoEs and pad the leaderboards in WZ I am in. 200k Damage, with 4 kill blows. I can log on my Sent and level 12 Guardian and do 120k but have 10+ Killing blows. Now which is better? They are both useful to the group, the VG helps lower the area so others can get the kills, and JKs take people out.

 

You can compare AoE Classes to Single Target classes in a WZ setting it will never hold up in any argument.

[TheRealBrave]

Except Vanguards/Powertech actually do fantastic single target damage... 60%+ Armor Pen on Rail Shot...

[Mallorik]

Guardians arent screwed up as much as powertechs and vanguards are op, i pvp alot and if you gave me the abilitys to do 300k dmg a round i could wreck 5 people at a time by myself.