PvP brackets are flawed, and should not be added to this game

[poofz]

PvP gives mandatory xp, twinks wont be a problem.

[Wheldrake]

A forced level 50 bracket will not make things any better. I think that is a horrible idea. I think it will seriously hurt level 50's.

 

What is it with everyone (Especially Republic) jumping into a PVP match at level 10 and QQ'ing about getting ***** or even worse because they didn't top the DPS chart? Who cares what damage you do... Are you trying to win? Because every person that I see QQ'ing isn't even PAYING ATTENTION to the OBJECTIVES! I would take a level 15 that is interested in doing what it takes to win the match than a bone head 50 that cant stay still long enough to protect a console, or refuses to score in huttball. Or follow any strategy to win Voidstar. That person is useless... Lots of damage, Lots of Kills doesn't WIN THE MATCH.

 

Bolster FTW!! Thank you BIOWARE!

Edited January 3, 2012 by Wheldrake

[Caeliux]

2 brackets would be perfect imo:

 

10-49

and one for lvl 50

 

People will complain about 49's killing them.

 

People will complain 39's are killing them.

 

People will complain 29's are killing them.

 

The cycle don't stop with 50's gone does it.

 

The complaining won't ever stop no matter what.

 

What don't you people get that are crying for brackets.

 

Bolster gone then its gear depended twinks.

 

Bolster stays higher level still beat you up and then your not happy.

 

L2P is the solution.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Caeliux

[Bulde]

Disagree. While you are correct with the examples you have provided, they only failed because they had too many brackets.

 

SWTOR pvp brackets should consist of only two brackets. This would solve all the issues and here is how.

 

1. First, BioWare needs to implement two brackets only. No more, no less.

 

2. By not having 3, 4, or even 5 different brackets, it keeps the population split only into two different brackets, thus having a flourishing population for both brackets. There are enough 50's now that even the lvl 50's should not have to wait in long queues.

 

3. The difference between say a level 10-20 vs. a level 40ish may seem significant, but its no where near the significance of what you are facing when playing vs level 50s who are wearing full pvp gear with expertise for bonus dmg and bonus mitigation.

 

In a nutshell. Since you really can't get gear with expertise on it (in any significant value) prior to lvl 50, this would effectively seperate the people who actually have access to pvp gear with expertise vs. those who do not.

 

Two PVP Brackets is the way to go.

Level 1-49 (no expertise...because it's not available!)

Level 50 (expertise)

Edited January 3, 2012 by Bulde

[Puremallace]

Rift did have bolster genius or maybe you should pay attention next time. The concept is not hard. TOR fans do not want cross server warfronts.

 

here let me make it simple:

 

You have 5 oranges..you remove 4 how many oranges do you have.

 

Normal server clusters of made of 5 servers. You guys cried and screamed, so you get one. Grats this is that long sought after community most of you wanted.

 

. It consists of WoW left overs looking to make a name because they washed out of rated Arena teams vs RMT'rs

 

. People who think they will good at GW2, but once they face actual pvp'rs will go crying back to whatever mmo they came from

 

. E-peeners looking to wave it

 

. FPS trash who never should have left mobas or BF3/MW3

 

. Poor sob looking to have fun mixed in with this trash

Edited January 3, 2012 by Puremallace

[Megamaid]

I didn't read through all 3 pages, so sorry if someone else has said this.

 

Warhammer has the best system, which is brackets with Bolster. Now it failed in Warhammer but it failed because that game had such little server population. And the game overall wasn't very strong, it had PvP and that was about it. Despite the fact that PvP players are quite numerous they are rarely the reason for an MMOs success and longevity, that goes to the PvE crowd, and those players often times PvP. A game like Warhammer only held onto the more hardcore PvPers which is such a small group of people that queue times ended up being to long.

 

WH had a great system, that worked amazing when the game was quite new, but as the population of players started to die down the system started to cave in. If Swtor can hold a high population then this style of system is perfect.

 

Just take WoW for instance. The game has a ton of players, and cross server PvP, but WoW starts to fail because each bracket doesn't have bolstering. Without Bolstering it is pointless to play in that brack unless your towards the level cap of the Bracket. Twinks used to be a huge problem but is less of a problem now that BGs give XP again, and twinks were made to stay at a single level. If they want to do that now they will end up going against other twinks. WoW probably has too many brackets, but, it is a good system if it had bolstering.

 

What Star Wars need is cross server implemented. Without cross server WZs the level 50 queue times will be too long. Once cross server is implemented you can implement 3 brackets, 10-29, 30-49, and 50s. 50's should not be separated by valor ranks, that will up in failure. Cross server could also help long term sustainability of queue times, and hopefully it could even out Republic vs Empire population, allowing us to play more then just HuttBall.

 

You can't say Brackets will fail and point to games like WH which couldn't hold onto its population, unless PvP was the reason people left, which it wasn't.

[bigabesc]

One of the best posts i have ever seen on this forum... THANK GOD SOMEONE GETS IT

[Xsorus]

I'm sorry, saying that Brackets are needed cause of expertise, so we should get rid of expertise is bloody moronic way of thinking.

 

I have a better idea, How about simply bolstering low level players to half of the top expertise in the Warfront.

 

That's a far better solution then splitting the Queue population in half based on butthurt nubs.

 

Cross Server Queue's, while i do like, I'm also of the same opinion as most that it ruins server rivals.

 

Then again I'm also of the opinion they you eventually end up with Battle Group Rivals as well.

 

Regardless, Brackets don't work, they simply do not work, hell someone even tried to say DAOC's brackets worked, and they didn't..

 

you had level advantages in the BG's that caused players and twinks to be more powerful, level 24/34's for example, and you had basically This, and Caledonia end up being the only two BG's actually played.

[bigabesc]

woops Edited January 3, 2012 by bigabesc

[Hellapain]

I agree but either the matchmaker has to be improved to make sure each side has a relatively equal number of geared 50s or we do need a L50 only bracket.

 

In the beginning it was great but as time has gone by there is a problem where geared guildies all at L50 can completely unbalance the game when they queue as a group.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Hellapain

[EternalFinality]

WoW - Twinks.. nuff said.

 

I like how you try to end the argument by glossing over it. Yes, twinks are a negative of brackets but the positives of placing people with generally similar gear and most importantly - SKILL - together far outweigh it.

 

Plus, there are few twinks during the growth period of an MMO following launch. Which is what we'll be in for a while.

[Almghty_gir]

get rid of expertise, and brackets are not needed.

[RamzaBehoulve]

get rid of expertise, and brackets are not needed.

 

Also remove half level 50 skills, cap their HPs to 12k and their damage mitigation to 20% and we'll call it fair.

 

No, it would be ridiculous.

 

50s need their own bracket, that's it.

 

There is no logical reason for 10-49 and 50s to be fighting together. In a week or two, the population problem will be gone for 50s.

[Sky_walkerPL]

Far to many people on this forum are whining about brackets ignoring the fact they completely failed in every other game they've been implemented in.

 

You obviously don't get what people ask for.

 

Just TWO brackets:

LVL50

Below LVL50.

 

NONE of the issues you raised would happen. Never any of these groups would be dead or have some immerse long wait queues.

 

EOT for me.

 

get rid of expertise, and brackets are not needed.

That could work too.

 

Also remove half level 50 skills, cap their HPs to 12k and their damage mitigation to 20% and we'll call it fair.

 

No, it would be ridiculous.

Not really. Right now non-PvP-geared level 50 isn't anything extraordinary. Sure, he isn't easy pray, lvl30 player still hardly can duel with him, but he also isn't invincible tank dealing more damage and getting less than anyone else on the battlefield.

Non-geared lvl50 player will be pawned by 3 sub-50 players. Geared lvl50 player can kill 3 opponents and still go and try getting forth one in a row.

 

That's why I dislike expertise - it turn game into "who got's PvP gear?!" instead of "who got skills".

Edited January 3, 2012 by Sky_walkerPL

[Daecollo]

ALL THEY NEED TO DO.

 

 

Add Expertise to Lower Level PvP Gear.

(More Expertise then Higher level, the Higher Level gear has Lower Expertise.)

[Almghty_gir]

I didn't read through all 3 pages, so sorry if someone else has said this.

 

Warhammer has the best system, which is brackets with Bolster. Now it failed in Warhammer but it failed because that game had such little server population. And the game overall wasn't very strong, it had PvP and that was about it. Despite the fact that PvP players are quite numerous they are rarely the reason for an MMOs success and longevity, that goes to the PvE crowd, and those players often times PvP. A game like Warhammer only held onto the more hardcore PvPers which is such a small group of people that queue times ended up being to long.

 

WH had a great system, that worked amazing when the game was quite new, but as the population of players started to die down the system started to cave in. If Swtor can hold a high population then this style of system is perfect.

 

it failed in warhammer due to factional imbalances, premades steamrolling pugs, pugs quitting the game, premades having to wait insane amounts of time due to pugs quitting the game, then premades quitting the game.

 

the biggest reason why it failed, was because during the biggest "lolz i quit" period, scenarios actually meant something in the game, the entire realm progressed depending on their performance in open rvr AND scenarios, and since scenarios were dominated by premades, when all of the pugs quit, scens stopped popping and then the realm war couldn't progress due to lack of victory points.

 

then they introduced domination locking systems, and even less people queued for scenarios because they didn't need to anymore. all of the so called "hardcore" players who died too many times to the really good groups decided they could get their city sieges and therefor their good shiny pixels without ever coming into contact with the people that murdered them day in day out.

 

 

that said, in all honesty, they just need to get rid of the expertise stat, then all these problems will go away.

[Bulde]

get rid of expertise, and brackets are not needed.

 

I would be on board with this idea provided that they still offered pvp gear as rewards (without expertise on it). That way you can get equivelant gear whether you prefer PvP or PvE. What ever play style you prefer.

[Megamaid]

I'm sorry, saying that Brackets are needed cause of expertise, so we should get rid of expertise is bloody moronic way of thinking.

 

I have a better idea, How about simply bolstering low level players to half of the top expertise in the Warfront.

 

That's a far better solution then splitting the Queue population in half based on butthurt nubs.

 

Cross Server Queue's, while i do like, I'm also of the same opinion as most that it ruins server rivals.

 

Then again I'm also of the opinion they you eventually end up with Battle Group Rivals as well.

 

Regardless, Brackets don't work, they simply do not work, hell someone even tried to say DAOC's brackets worked, and they didn't..

 

you had level advantages in the BG's that caused players and twinks to be more powerful, level 24/34's for example, and you had basically This, and Caledonia end up being the only two BG's actually played.

 

 

You can still have server rivals, they just need to work on Illum and promote it so there is a reason to participate in World PvP. And like you said you still end up with battlegroup rivals, if you pay attention. And what little you would loose in rivalry you gain by actually being able to compete in something other then Huttball. Playing nothing but Huttball is going to result in more people leaving this game then the lack of player rivalries which wont even be faction oriented since your never going to see a republic player on some servers.

 

Brackets with bolstering does work, your evidence of them not working is suspect. It works, provided you have the population to sustain them. Warhammer never had the population, nor the population spread to get them to work. WoW lacks bolstering and they have far too many brackets.

 

Yes Brackets may promote Twinks, but twinks only started to appear in masses when you stopped receiving XP in BGs or when you could hold on to the marks and not turn them in for XP. IN Swtor, you will have bolstering fixing one major problem, and you will also be receiving XP, which prevents twinks from sitting at the top of a bracket and ruining that bracket.

 

Now another solution is to give players expertise as part of the bolster mechanic, like you said but i am not so sure this will solve all the problems. High levels still have higher rank skills, full skill trees, and more skills. It is true that expertise is the main offender, but, it is not the only offender.

 

A three bracket W/Bolstering system could work great in Swtor, but they would have to implement cross server for it to work out.

[Almghty_gir]

the best pvp set has stats very very close to the best pve set. however the pvp set has 350 expertise on it, which makes for a rather healthy +20% damage bonus/reduction/healing bonus against anyone that doesn't have expertise.

 

here's the real kicker though:

if they put in a level 50 bracket, expertise becomes a redundant stat, because pvp gear is far easier to obtain than the pve equivilents, which means the majority of people will have it. if everyone has the same amount of expertise, there is no point in having the stat there at all, because anyone with basic math will tell you that if you have 20% damage bonus, and you're hitting someone with 20% damage reduction, then you're doing your base damage rate.

 

so the ONLY people benefiting from expertise, are level 50's who're hitting people below level 50. with no exception AT ALL.

 

the stat bolster works with regards to evening out levels and stats between 10 and 50, but it doesn't bolster expertise, and THAT is why level 50's are dominating.

 

i know this, because i hit 50 today, my stats aren't any different in warzones than they were at 40, but i have a nice 116 expertise.

 

expertise needs to go, everyone should put it in their sigs. pvp matches should not be decided by a level exclusive damage bonus.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Almghty_gir

[Havocis]

Queues are getting higher and higher each day cause WZs is turning into something that level teens 20s and 30s are joining once or twice, getting stomped by higher levels with all their skills and more in their talent tree and not queuing anymore.

 

WITH OUT brackets WZs will just turn into something you ONLY do at high levels which will screw queues ANYWAYS.

 

Brackets have NEVER screwed ANY MMO PvP game and the fact that you would even attempt to state that it has (due to queue times alone which is the dumbest argument for none brackets I could imagine) shows me that you are either a raider that just likes to PvP in between your raid times or just have no idea what your talking about.

 

NO REAL PvPer would feel that brackets screw a MMO PvPs game. I am 47 and I dont like getting rolled by 50s with all their PvP gear anymore then I like rolling level 12s with their lack of abilities and talent points.

 

If they DONT put brackets into this game AND SOON, there wont be anyone left to WZ queue cause only the raiders and fanboys will be left, then come back and tell me how brackets messed with your queue times lol.

[Daecollo]

Simply put 85 Expertise on level 20 gear and 60 Expertise on Level 40 gear.

 

Problem Fixed.

 

20s will have alot more expertise then level 50s, therefore be stronger.

 

40s will have a little more expertise then level 50s, therefore be stronger.

 

Balance of Power Restored.

[Amythiel]

The game needs 2 brackets, 10-49 and 50.

[Daecollo]

The game needs 2 brackets, 10-49 and 50.

 

Or, simply added 100-120 Expertise to level 20 gear, and 60-80 Expertise to Level 40 gear.

[Dannicus]

+1

 

Just add an OPTIONAL 50's only bracket and neutralize Expertise in the 10-50 bracket. Zero it out, make it useless, it's an unfair stat and we're seeing why. High levels have enough of an advantage with a better array of talents and a more robust rotation. Expertise is overkill.

 

Rift is the PERFECT EXAMPLE of how NOT to do instanced PvP, and the others are equally strong cases against brackets.

[Daecollo]

+1

 

Just add an OPTIONAL 50's only bracket and neutralize Expertise in the 10-50 bracket. Zero it out, make it useless, it's an unfair stat and we're seeing why. High levels have enough of an advantage with a better array of talents and a more robust rotation. Expertise is overkill.

 

Rift is the PERFECT EXAMPLE of how NOT to do instanced PvP, and the others are equally strong cases against brackets.

 

How about you add expertise to low level PVP gear, and as you gear up the expertise on gear gets less and less.