Expertise is what's breaking pvp... and it's simple to see why.

[Gorgok]

While i agree i think a PVP stat is dumb... i think the math you used is broken. First, the formula cannot produce a number over 20, getting a 'theoretical' 34 is impossible. Using 36*X as a scale to judge where you land is also wrong, as it only holds true for 1% after that it starts to go down. Even then if, as is claimed, 350 hits 34% (let alone close to the cap) then it would be 36*34 which a 5 year old should say is lots not 350...

 

Unless i am doing something completely wrong 350 expertise = 7.85342221% That is still significant especially since it goes both ways, and has no counter until you gear it yourself...

 

By the way, even at that 36*34 number, 1224 expertise, you reach 16.5035077%

[Almghty_gir]

fair point, note to self: do not do math on new years eve

 

will come back the day after tomorrow to correct it hahaha

[Grimmace]

the problem with that, is that it could potentially have a more detrimental effect.

 

yea, like new 50's coming into pvp and getting completely obliderated solely because of gear .... like in rift.

[Lymain]

Warzones are so much better from 14-49 than they are at 50. Going without Expertise screws up itemization, but I really wish gear made less difference overall. I seem to remember Georg Zoeller posting months before release that they wanted skill to be more important than gear, but you need a pretty vast skill gap to overcome the ridiculous 50 pvp gear.

[Gorgok]

I also thought that Crafters were supposed to be useful gear wise... But as best i can tell you max out at a xxxx 22 barrel mod while you can purchase a purple 23 from a daily reward vendor. Of course neither is even close to the damage a good PVP weapon does. =/ Had i known this about crafting i wouldn't have wasted my time, instead just gotten 3 gathering skills like Slicing, Treasure Hunting and maybe Investigation.

[sjwho]

When gear is the focus of pvp, you have lost all that pvp stands for.

[Dystopic]

PvP stats are the worst idea the MMO companies ever came up with in general.

 

I am a hardcore pvp player... I spend 90% of my time in every game I play in PvP. I HATE PvP stats.

 

Why is it so hard to simply make sure PvP reward gear has = stats too the PvE reward gear.

 

I don't CARE as a full time PvP player if the guy that runs raids all day wants to que up once a week and happens to be equal too me in gear. COOL... thats good for PvP.

 

All the PvP stats do is make BAD PvP players that don't do PvE feel like they are good.

 

I win most PvP fights I get into... it doesn't matter if I have the best gear or not. Because I don't suck. lol

 

PvP stats are a crutch that needs to be removed from this game before It destroys this games PvP... and it will.

 

New players will stop queing up after getting beat on for a few rounds by "Hardcore" PvP guys... not because there more skilled but because they have 40% bonuses.

 

"Hardcore" PvP players will quit because the Ques won't pop for 2 hours at a time.

 

The real PvP players that would be willing to fight anyone in white gear.... will have long since left in disgust. /rant

 

I agree with this. The only reason PVP gear has a specific PVP stat is to separate PVP and PVE gear. People complain about raid gear in PVP and PVE'rs will QQ nonstop about PVP gear in PVE. Remember wellfare epics in the burning crusade? In my opinion it's better for the game if people can bounce around a bit. Locking them down just makes them move on from the game when bored rather than trying something new that requires getting another set of gear for most casuals.

[Blazehound]

What I like about Expertise:

My heals on lvl 50 characters are amazing!

 

What I dislike about Expertise:

 

Being killed by someone lvl 50 using all their instants in less then six seconds even with the bolstered stats.

 

Being unable to outheal the other healer because their tank is lvl 50.

 

being camped by two level 50s at each entrance who can gank my whole team, even if they attacked together(Loved that match. Got to see my critical heals delay deaths by .5 seconds)

 

So yes, I think expertise is broken. and at all you naysayers who think this is balanced, a lvl 50 has a huge advantage over a lvl 10 with bolstered stats. By level fifty, you have at least three to four times the number of attacks, and your attacks have much more damage, not to mention that many of them probably have further enhancements due to skillpoints. So shut up with the david and goliath stuff, it doesn't happen because it isn't possible unless the level fifty goes afk mid-fight.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Blazehound

[Atrox]

PvP was broken long before any character even had expertise on their gear.

[Shammus]

Bear with me guys, this is quite wordy and has a small amount of math. but it's here for you all to see.

 

Expertise is the big problem in pvp, because it's only available (as a stacked stat) at rank 50. you see it dotted around on the occasional lightsaber at rank 40, but only in very small amounts.

 

people have said that it's rank 50 gear and skills which are breaking pvp, i would say they are certainly a problem, but not THAT much when compared to what expertise is doing.

 

so let's use the following items as an example of a rank 50, in the best pvp gear (that i could see) on Torhead.

Battlemasters Wargear set:

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/hmj1VJX

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/1fFlaGV

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/33CcXT6

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/3JBmeAL

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/1KJbt7s

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/dPdvP04

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/a5bJpP5

 

total stats:

strength:527

endurance:638

expertise:350

absorption:143

defence:200

accuracy:153

surge:102

 

and here's a full set of gear for between ranks 40-49 from Torhead.

Ancient Paragon's set:

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/1rfwPy

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/8EFZ3E6

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/aldiCFg

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/7AbQOsI

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/MRAD58

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/533uaV1

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/75vlZTQ

 

total stats:

strength:433

endurance:522

absorption:41

defence:215

accuracy:91

surge:60

 

 

so the stat difference between the two:

+94 strength

+116 endurance

+350 expertise

+102 absorbtion

+15 defence

+62 accuracy

+42 surge

 

so really, in terms of actual increases it's fairly small, you only have a the following:

18.8 base damage increase

1160 health increase

~4% accuracy increase

~1% defence increase

etc.

 

so really, most of the stats aren't all that big a deal in terms of actual differences. sure, you can extrapolate this and yes it might be quite a large difference against rank 10's, where the base damage difference might be somewhere around +80 base damage increase... but that's nothing compared to what follows.

 

known formulas for what expertise actually does:

• PvP Damage Bonus % = 20 * ( 1 – ( 1 – ( 0.01 / 0.2 ) )^( ( Expertise / max(Level,20) ) / 0.72 ) )
  
• PvP Damage Reduction % = 20 * ( 1 – ( 1 – ( 0.01 / 0.2 ) )^( ( Expertise / max(Level,20) ) / 0.72 ) )
  
• PvP Trauma Ignore % = 20 * ( 1 – ( 1 – ( 0.01 / 0.2 ) )^( ( Expertise / max(Level,20) ) / 0.72 ) )
  

 

essentially, for every 36 expertise = 1% damage bonus/damage reduction/healing bonus, up to a maximum of 20% in our case we have 350 expertise, which grants 34% damage bonus/reduction/healing bonus (again, this is capped to 20%).

 

so really what we're looking at here is not that great a difference in stats, especially when the bolster is introduced. but when you look at what expertise does as a stat it's no wonder 50's are so much "better" than anyone below them. it's like everyone hitting them is permanently taunted/challenged, and at the same time you're hitting them back for a much larger base value. both of which are then exaserbated further by built in damage bonuses, guard, actual taunt and challenge etc.

 

if anything in the game needs to be changed with regards to pvp. look at expertise first, once that's fixed, most of the other issues will vanish or become so small very few will mind them.

 

 

SO BUY A PVP WEAPON OFF THE WEAPON VENDOR and remove the enhancement that has EXPERTISE on it and add it to any piece of modifiable armor

 

this is something EVERYONE should have been doing to gain expertise. I mean do people not know how the game works that they can't think to do these things?

[Zlodo]

Expertise is not the problem, 50s not being in their own bracket is.

 

Even without expertise properly geared 50s are going to have twice the hp and other stats of bolstered people.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Zlodo

[Shammus]

Expertise is not the problem, 50s not being in their own bracket is.

 

Even without expertise properly geared 50s are going to have twice the hp and other stats of bolstered people.

 

no they won't they will have "more" maybe but its not anywhere near twice.

[Kalantris]

no they won't they will have "more" maybe but its not anywhere near twice.

 

I think you are horribly wrong. I had 10,500HP with bolster, I already have 13,500 and I only have 3 PvP items. The endurance bonus on them is totally awesome and I will probably have around 17-19k once I'm done collecting Champion gear. That's almost twice as much. Also I had 1k willpower when boosted, I have 1,35k now and will have more once my gear is complete.

 

I say expertise should be on ALL PvP items for ALL levels only in smaller numbers on lower levels.

 

Regards,

Kalantris

[Saben-]

The easiest solution would be split the war fronts up now that their is a lot of level 50's about split the battlegrounds up.

 

Level 10 > 49 Battlegroup &

Level 50 Battlegroup

 

this solves all the problems currently within pvp.

[Haeso]

no they won't they will have "more" maybe but its not anywhere near twice.

 

You can, in fact, hit 20k HP in full gear with stims/certain classes. 18k is easily doable by any class.

 

It's pretty close to double endurance, crit and surge and also much higher if min/maxed.

[Shammus]

I think you are horribly wrong. I had 10,500HP with bolster, I already have 13,500 and I only have 3 PvP items. The endurance bonus on them is totally awesome and I will probably have around 17-19k once I'm done collecting Champion gear. That's almost twice as much. Also I had 1k willpower when boosted, I have 1,35k now and will have more once my gear is complete.

 

I say expertise should be on ALL PvP items for ALL levels only in smaller numbers on lower levels.

 

Regards,

Kalantris

 

that's not double hp and stats.. i never said you would have more.

 

but numbers do fluxuate in pvp I'll be in game soon I can give you a better idea.. will take screenshots of stats outside and in.

[Lord_Indomitus]

You are correct, PvP gear > level atm. I've started PvPing only after I was 50, having no PvP gear (but just leveling gear) was an obvious disadvantage. Still, this is not "game breaking" + we'll have brackets sooner or later.

 

This game's bolster is tuned very nicely, the game is very nicely tuned in general for a new MMO. Be more patient and don;t go to extends just yet and especially don't be so rush to cal;l things broken, OP, etc even when there's no real data out there yet.

 

That doesn't mean that some obviously OP/broken thing should not be discussed, but these are not as many as enough think/claim/say/rant about. Still decent post, just wrong assumptions in my opinion and thus a wrong conclusion.

[dcrow]

I play at all different times but always run into the same 40 level 50s there arent enough to start their own bracket yet. Give it a couple weeks. Im level 43 and get beat by level 50s all the time but we cant make them wait an hour for queue because our pride hurts and we are impatient. You're not suppose to beat a level 50 till you get in the 40s Edited January 2, 2012 by dcrow

[Sardoni]

so really what we're looking at here is not that great a difference in stats, especially when the bolster is introduced. but when you look at what expertise does as a stat it's no wonder 50's are so much "better" than anyone below them. it's like everyone hitting them is permanently taunted/challenged, and at the same time you're hitting them back for a much larger base value. both of which are then exaserbated further by built in damage bonuses, guard, actual taunt and challenge etc.

 

if anything in the game needs to be changed with regards to pvp. look at expertise first, once that's fixed, most of the other issues will vanish or become so small very few will mind them.

The bolster system is probably not calculating the expertise stat correctly (i.e. it's favoring the wearers). Considering it's a new stat they introduced and it wasn't in beta I wouldn't be surprised.

[Chasted]

Expertise is not the problem, 50s not being in their own bracket is.

 

Even without expertise properly geared 50s are going to have twice the hp and other stats of bolstered people.

 

And the cost of entry into PvP for people newly arriving to level 50 will be fun-tastic!

[Zlodo]

no they won't they will have "more" maybe but its not anywhere near twice.

I've already seen quite a few people with 17k hp, and they couldn't possibly have the highest tier of gear yet.

[Hamstaxo]

keep in mind when you want a 50s bracket that all new 50s will cry out loud when they reach max level because all these bad pvpers have gear and we dont

its the same in green so be happy to get fast invites and ****

[Radios]

When gear is the focus of pvp, you have lost all that pvp stands for.

Amen!!!!!!

[Saben-]

And the cost of entry into PvP for people newly arriving to level 50 will be fun-tastic!

 

PvP before your 50 im level 35 and have full level 40 pvp gear and im collecting champ bags now

[Korsbror]

Hey Bruglir.

 

Give it a month and everyone is fifty, or can be carried by a group of fifties, for same effect, and this is just another stat to stack. What is the problem?