lordazanine Posted November 11 Posted November 11 hello there i am making this because i have had it with the premades in pvp that some seem to be letting other teams that are friends or people win and seem to be throwing matches people have been calling it win trading but its kinda weird cause this is unranked and alls you get is two weeklys done faster per toon not much a reward to pay to win lol. i was just in a hutt ball where our team was fighting on the bottom where the huttball spawns and had the ball and was attacking the other team passing the huttball back and forth to each other when we had the chance to win. they was also passing the ball back and forth to the other team and no it was on purpose i saw it thrown to em instead of a team mate. we need to make solo warzone qs and group warzone qs to end this and give people the option to q with friends or q solo. some might tell me just make a premade and join in no i dont wanna do that most the time i play solo and sometimes with guildies but mostly solo. pvp isnt as fun on this game as others due to it and i play guildwars 2 where theres wintraders and bots in ranked its a problem there to but im here on starwars not guildwars and i want it fixxed here so i say we fix it by having solo warzone qs and group warzone qs please make this possible and thank you for reading this have a good one
The_Hightower Posted November 11 Posted November 11 Already discussed in several previous posts, e.g.: https://forums.swtor.com/topic/937395-cue-option-for-joining-solo-groups-premade-groups-or-both/#comment-9830089 https://forums.swtor.com/topic/937519-server-merger-for-the-us/#comment-9830862 Would very likely kill pvp on all servers except Star Forge and Darth Malgus. 3
Samcuu Posted November 11 Posted November 11 It's not win trading, most premades simply don't care about winning matches. Their objective is to kill the other team and farm numbers/kills. Many of them play the game exclusively to pvp and care nothing for the rewards or finishing weeklies. The devs priority as they've stated before is to make matches pop as fast as possible, so I wouldn't expect them to split the queues as that would lengthen the queue time for everyone. Only solution for me is to either make a seperate mode for pvp that's a deathmatch (with respawn unlike arenas) that they could queue into without the objectives, or put win percentage on a public leaderboard to name and shame players who don't win matches, which could possibly change their behavior, and offer exclusive rewards to the players who care about winning. If anyone has other ideas about how to align all the players motivations who join pvp matches, I'd love to hear them. In the meantime I think reducing max group sizes down to 4 would alleviate a lot of these problems, as we've discussed ad nauseum in the pvp forums lol. 2
septru Posted November 12 Posted November 12 21 hours ago, Samcuu said: If anyone has other ideas about how to align all the players motivations who join pvp matches, I'd love to hear them. Incentivize winning with skill based rewards. It's not rocket science. 1
Bullyabass Posted November 13 Posted November 13 Solo only queues would help since most of what you're seeing is farmers and most farmers run premades and most premades farm. As for solo only killing pvp I totally disagree. Premades are the death spiral for pvp. Premades kill the q by making balanced match making impossible and by making the games tedious 1v4s for people not in the premade and tedious 4v1s for people in the premade. They make starting pvp a miserable experience for new players hence why pvp is a closed and dying community A solo only match may take longer to pop but it will be better balanced, more competitive and more entertaining for the players who are then more likely to q again
The_Hightower Posted November 13 Posted November 13 2 hours ago, Bullyabass said: Solo only queues would help since most of what you're seeing is farmers and most farmers run premades and most premades farm. As for solo only killing pvp I totally disagree. Premades are the death spiral for pvp. Premades kill the q by making balanced match making impossible and by making the games tedious 1v4s for people not in the premade and tedious 4v1s for people in the premade. They make starting pvp a miserable experience for new players hence why pvp is a closed and dying community A solo only match may take longer to pop but it will be better balanced, more competitive and more entertaining for the players who are then more likely to q again A solo match won't pop at all on several servers, especially during the week, since the number of players not including the premades is too low. Most of the premade players won't queue solo. Cross-server PvP or server merges would be needed. Merging the three European Servers would be straightforward imho, with the two US and the APC server I don't know.
VegaMist Posted November 13 Posted November 13 As was pointed out many times before, limiting premades to 4 players max (as it was in the past) would greatly help the situation. However, separating queues into solo vs group would effectively kill whatever is left of PVP (yet, this demand seems to pop up again and again with little understanding of the consequences). 2
Bullyabass Posted November 13 Posted November 13 12 hours ago, The_Hightower said: A solo match won't pop at all on several servers, especially during the week, since the number of players not including the premades is too low. Most of the premade players won't queue solo. I disagree Solo matches will pop more frequently since it will be easier to form matches from a pool of single players than from randomly sized premades and many of the people who premade do so in response to other people premading. Easy to find out however, split the queues and let people q for either or both. If the solo q never pops then people will just stop qing for it and nothing is lost.
Samcuu Posted November 14 Posted November 14 34 minutes ago, VegaMist said: As was pointed out many times before, limiting premades to 4 players max (as it was in the past) would greatly help the situation. However, separating queues into solo vs group would effectively kill whatever is left of PVP (yet, this demand seems to pop up again and again with little understanding of the consequences). Nobody ever asked for premades to be eliminated prior to 7.0. Not entirely sure the reasoning behind it. My best guess is that the extra 10 - 12k dps of a veteran player or multiple players obviously raises the damage to a level that is impossible to survive, especially if the players are coordinating and focusing targets. The previous version of a premade in 6.0 and before was usually 3 dps and a healer or 2 dps and a tank/heal. Still a formidable team but you wouldn't explode quite as fast as when there are 5 dps focusing you. Occasionally you'd get unlucky and get the two 4 man premades matched on the same team against you, but it was pretty rare. 1 1
VegaMist Posted November 14 Posted November 14 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Bullyabass said: I disagree Solo matches will pop more frequently since it will be easier to form matches from a pool of single players than from randomly sized premades and many of the people who premade do so in response to other people premading. Easy to find out however, split the queues and let people q for either or both. If the solo q never pops then people will just stop qing for it and nothing is lost. So much is wrong with this post. Solo matches will NOT pop more frequently since the total pool of players will be much smaller. Most people who premade do so with the people they know - playing with friends is part of the fun in MMO and one of the strongest reasons that keeps people in a game for years. If the q never pops - solo or group - A LOT is lost. Specifically, it would drive players out of the game, in most cases permanently. Edited November 14 by VegaMist 2
Samcuu Posted November 14 Posted November 14 43 minutes ago, Bullyabass said: Solo matches will pop more frequently since it will be easier to form matches from a pool of single players than from randomly sized premades and many of the people who premade do so in response to other people premading. Easy to find out however, split the queues and let people q for either or both. If the solo q never pops then people will just stop qing for it and nothing is lost. In a vacuum you arent wrong. Team arena was a dead game mode after the first few seasons. Issue you had was that the best players would group and they'd stomp the queue...naturally nobody likes to continually lose (and especially in ranked where there was elo involved) queue would be dead pretty quick, especially as the population dropped. You see this in the current game with guild challenges. The weaker team will hang in for a match or two and that's the end of it. At a macro level, I'd definitely make the argument that the pvpers who group are important to the games ecology. They are dedicated to pvp and have formed a friends circle of like minded players. Part of the allure of pvp is the social aspect, i personally have several friends who will only touch swtor pvp to come play with me for example, most of them have moved on to other games. Regardless tho, the premade only queue would be dead for the reason I just stated, the stronger premade will be sitting in queue and after they beat the other premades a couple times the queue will die and the other premades will either just log or actually join the solo queue and leave the other group waiting around. Population isn't big enough on any server to get a large variance of players. Also this isn't even taking into account that premades aren't always round numbers. Who does the trio and duo and 4 man play against when there's a 5 man premade waiting for them? Will the queue pop with uneven numbers leaving one team at a disadvantage? You need those solo players in queue to fill out the numbers needed. I'm a solo queue player who fills out those premade vs premade matches and has a lot of fun doing so. Then you've got the whole situation that arises with healers and tanks not being able to group. Why would I ever solo queue into a wz with no guarantee anyone will peel for me as a healer, or as a tank knowing most likely I won't have a healer in game? Solo only queue is extremely short-sighted imho. There are far more reasonable ways to fix the issue. 1
casgubans Posted November 14 Posted November 14 16 hours ago, Bullyabass said: I disagree Solo matches will pop more frequently since it will be easier to form matches from a pool of single players than from randomly sized premades and many of the people who premade do so in response to other people premading. Easy to find out however, split the queues and let people q for either or both. If the solo q never pops then people will just stop qing for it and nothing is lost. disagree all you want, it's not an opinion it's a fact. they already know definitively what would happen which is why there no logical reason for them to "try" to do it; the queue is already dead for large spans of time. there is no debate to be had regarding whether separating the queues would further exacerbate that issue. 1
septru Posted November 14 Posted November 14 50 minutes ago, casgubans said: after all, there is no greater incentivization the "developers" can offer damage farmers than what they already receive; big numbers and crying objers. Except for... you know.... actual rewards like a flair, or a mount, or unique armor set. Or even a leaderboard for bragging rights. 3
Spikanor Posted November 14 Posted November 14 25 minutes ago, AocaVII said: There's still people that play this that don't think you need to attack other players in war zones. warzone is all about the objective's and not about attacking other players since you not win the match if you not do the objective good. if you wane attack other players only then arena type is there good for not warzone. 27 minutes ago, AocaVII said: The matchmaking does not fix this no matter how they do it so the only solution is for the bad players to get better and they don't want to get better so the PVP will continue to be horrifically bad because people are happy with losing and dying 20 times and don't want to learn how to play. you know why people not wane get better in PVP since there not care at all if there can defeat other players at all there go for the objective the gelactic season or so give like getting medals and so to compleet the objective. most players that play warzone get sick of that type players that only care about attacking other players and not care about the main goal to win the match by compleet the objective in warzone. 1 1
Spikanor Posted November 14 Posted November 14 1 minute ago, AocaVII said: https://www.swtor.com/holonet/warzones Warzones in Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ are instanced areas where Imperial and Republic forces battle each other in objective-based Player-vs-Player combat. Eight players from each side enter the Warzone and then compete to defeat other players and accomplish the mission they’ve been assigned. you miss something from that link and that is this: Modes Warzones Regular Warzones make up the majority of player vs. player matches. Victory is achieved by completing various objectives. Arenas Arenas are a Last Team Standing Warzone in which you have only one goal: to eliminate all players on the opposing team.
VegaMist Posted November 14 Posted November 14 They just announced on Livestream that PVP premades will be limited to max of 4. 3
Beyrahl Posted November 14 Posted November 14 Just now, VegaMist said: They just announced on Livestream that PVP premades will be limited to max of 4. Reverting it back to original, it was a horrible choice from the beginning that no one wanted. Now hopefully we see gearing changes, meta shifts, bolster fixes, I don't care for a new warzone or arena, just work on the fundamentals that brought us all to the game in the first place. 4
Spikanor Posted November 14 Posted November 14 Just now, AocaVII said: Eight players from each side... That means 8vs8 regular war zone. you know there are 2 mode's he. Warzone and Arena. Arena is Player vs Player if you wane win. Warzone is winning by doing the objective's. 8 vs 8 has notting to do at all i got match few day's ago that was a compleet unblance at all. it was more 6 vs 8 or worse.
Spikanor Posted November 14 Posted November 14 Just now, AocaVII said: That Link and quote are describing regular war zones. That is not a link for arenas. then use the name arena please then what you mean since people can get confused by it like i am since i was thinking you are talking about warzone mode what is also callt warzone in the game it self.
Beyrahl Posted November 14 Posted November 14 17 minutes ago, AocaVII said: Them changing it to four people will not fix the PVP problem. It does help, nobody wants to deal with that. Something as simple as grouping up as a bunch of DPS players without any support roles was the largest offender for solo queue players. Meaning neither side would have support roles but one side will be stacked with competent damage against non. When it comes to just 4 players -- that's far more playable even if they 2:1 your allies in terms of skill. Problems started in 6.0 PTS. It'd take some work but I am willing to just accept better than this. This is just one step forward instead of the many backward we've taken over the years. 3 1
Samcuu Posted November 14 Posted November 14 (edited) 25 minutes ago, AocaVII said: Them changing it to four people will not fix the PVP problem. The problem is the players are not skilled enough to be in the war zone in the first place. Until that changes the war zones will remain terribly unbalanced. I dont completely disagree, 4 man's will just be more forgiving that 8 man's for newer players. The way you encourage new players to get better is by incentivizing their performance. That's why I keep repeating the idea of leaderboards and special rewards (titles/flairs) for people who perform in warzones. Got to give ppl a carrot to chase after otherwise u get afkers and people who don't care about learning to play. Edited November 14 by Samcuu 3
SentinalMasterWW Posted November 14 Posted November 14 It doesn't seem big but reverting Q sizes back to 4 is actually a big W for casual players. What has been a major issue that has been plaguing PVP for two years are these DMG farming comps that come in and just ruin the fun for all the solo players. The truth is that a majority of SWTOR PVP players are casuals, just is. So having these 6 man premade vs essentially a bunch of casuals and possible bots depending is a clear unfair advantage that leads to these one sided matches where one team gets 40 kills and sometimes the other team doesn't get any at all. Even if the other team has one or two skilled players they alone cannot carry the rest of their team. On top of this, premades get to decide basically their own team composition so they can have healers and tanks while you may get none at all. Combined, both of these facts makes Warzones an absolute nightmare for any solo player. It discourages players from actually trying to PVP to instead playing ring around the rosie capping objectives in the hopes of ending the match as quickly as possible. I have literally had nights where I want to play SWTOR PVP but the DMG farming premade guilds are online all throughout the night and I just straight up don't want to deal with that so I just don't Q or even play for the night. I am not giving those sweats the satisfaction of farming me when all they do is tunnel. Reverting Q size back to 4 is not going to save PVP lets be brutally honest. But it is a step in the right direction to actually fixing it. The mode still needs quite a bit of attention but reverting to the normal Q size is going to be a massive W for the casual players. 3
septru Posted November 14 Posted November 14 51 minutes ago, SentinalMasterWW said: Reverting Q size back to 4 is not going to save PVP lets be brutally honest. 2 years too late. 2
Beyrahl Posted November 15 Posted November 15 1 minute ago, supertimtaf said: I seriously can't wait for 7.6 to hit and have people complain about PvP being just as bad as before... Because if you're bad, it doesn't matter if you're against a 8v1, a 6v1, a 4v1 or even a 2v1 or 1v1. At the very least it won't be as bad as it currently is. Players looking inward to reflect in the first place is relatively unknown of in PvP of today. But making it a bit more breathable people will feel like they can start making an impact, however, this does nothing to aide those truly lost with no gear. 3
Alericus Posted November 15 Posted November 15 17 hours ago, AocaVII said: Them changing it to four people will not fix the PVP problem. The problem is the players are not skilled enough to be in the war zone in the first place. Until that changes the war zones will remain terribly unbalanced. I have seen solo queue versus solo queue games where the players are just as bad as they are versus a pre-made. How does that fix anything when players are doing 14-18 times the amount of damage that other players do. For example someone does 16k DPS and kills 40 players another player does 1k DPS and kills five players lol So if you had three players who could kill the whole other team because combined their DPS would be around 30 kdps while on the other team the whole team combined can do only 10K DPS you will have a totally unbalanced war zone where you can't do any objectives or win the war zone because you're dead. I'm talking about an unbalance of monumental scales between player scale. This is like a major league baseball player versus someone playing Little League. It's an immense difference in player skill. but limiting premades wont make it worse. I actually think this 1 step will help. As for players not knowing how to pvp, you are correct but the reason is players are avoiding pvp exactly for the reasons changing premade participation is needed. If you de-incentivize 8 man premades that 1)win trade 2)stomp solo players then you have a better chance of increasing player participation. Rewarding the same 20 players for their nasty behavior on each server hasnt worked..has it? Its just reduced the player pool for pvp so certain bad players who have rigged the existing system to pretend they can actually pvp when what theyve done is create a echo chamber where they are only playing against friends and trading wins. Meanwhile the number of pvp players shrinks as players just avoid such a poor game experience.
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