Save SWTOR

[SentinalMasterWW]

Before anyone freaks out, no SWTOR is not cancelled or anything like that. 

If you want a TL;dr Here ya go

Save SWTOR was a petition I created with the goal being of getting enough voices to get the Dev's to listen to the community. To listen to our issues and to stop putting it aside anytime it is brought up. I have since closed it for reasons at the bottom.

Some of you may say this is pointless the game is in maintenance mode give up. 

You are well within your right to have that opinion, but I don't think the game is in maintenance. Maintenance would imply that all forms of content would cease and that it would just be upkeeping the servers while doing an occasional update for bug fixes and possibly CM releases. Additionally the developers would have announced that story content and new content all together is being cancelled.

SWTOR means a lot to us players, some of us are new players, some of us have been here for a couple years, some are veterans that have been here since launch, and the few legends that played during the beta. Friends and communities have been made in this game of which a lot are now falling apart or being disbanded. They are leaving the game because it just does not offer anything anymore. 

The 6.0 expansion had set up a pathway to success for this game but 7.0 undid all of that in favor of streamlining the game and reducing core systems of the game to its most basic level in favor of trying to get the super casuals to play the game. Every system that had nuanced or any form of complexity was removed in favor of a system that just wants you to grind over and over again; replaying 10 year old content that everyone has played a hundred times over. 

The vast majority of players did not ask nor did they want these changes. I understand wanting to create a game that appeals to everyone but Broadsword is making the same mistakes other MMO's have made to which those MMO's have backtracked and undone them.

The 6 core tenets I brought up in the petition were the following: 

I. Undo Class Pruning and improve the levelling experience. 

II. Implement a proper PVP revamp to fix the issues and add some form of Competitive mode back into the game. 

III. Better and more engaging gearing system.

IV. Resurrect the GSF Community.

V. Better communication from the developers and being more receptive to player feedback.

VI. Quality Story Content and PVE Content. 

These are just the basic things I see brought up so much in discussions both here, on the forums, in game, Discord, etc. Obviously there is more that could be said, but I wanted to keep it broad and more so to the point of what gets brought up the most. I want to touch upon these real quick and give an explanation of why each point is here. 

I. Undo Class Pruning and improve the levelling experience. 

Class pruning was something I'd say 95-98% of the community did not ask for nor wanted. The only players who wanted this were players who complained that there were too many abilities in the game and didn't want to be bothered taking 5 secs to read the tooltip. SWTOR is not a fast paced combat game compared to something like ESO, ESO can get away with having enough abilities to fit on a controller because its far more fast paced. It was also in general designed that way. 

Going back to the 7.0 PTS there was an outcry for the Dev's to not go through with pruning, games like WOW had already done that and they received massive backlash for it to which they went back and undid it. 

When starting a new character the levelling experience from just 1 to 50 is a boring repetitive mess. You do not get enough abilities or passives or utilities to make it fun. It is a shame since SWTOR is a great alt friendly game but when the core levelling experience puts me to sleep there is a problem. Players should not have to rely on their free filler ability for 1/2 if not more of their levelling Experiance. If I was a new player, I'd think this game sucks and is boring because I don't get enough abilities when I level. I'm just stuck spamming saber strike over and over again with maybe occasionally using my one specialization ability but now I am low or ran out of force so I have to go back to spamming saber strike again. 

See how that can get boring? 

Whenever I start a new character I summon a companion from my legacy that I unlocked and set them on DPS. Why? Because I can't kill anything effectively at all! You either run out of energy/force or are forced to spam filler attacks with the occasional hard hitter.

I and others should NOT be forced to summon a companion just to set them to DPS just because my character is a baby that can't do anything to save their life.

This is not even bringing up the ability tree which since its inception has not any real reworks done to it, a tweak here and there sure but no major changes to improve it. The ability tree is summed up as do you want the one good option everyone is going to take because its just clearly above everything else? Or do you want the other two that are clearly inferior? 

It does not lend itself to any build creativity or diversity. Why did they remove the discipline system from the past expansion? It worked great for what it needed to do. 

I thought to myself why does levelling feel so bad right now compared to 6.0 ignoring the removal of abilities? Looking at the specialization tree from 6.0 I got my answer. 

In the past expansion levelling was far more spaced out evenly. By the time you hit level 10 you got all your main classes filler abilities and your first discipline ability. After that every 2 to 4 levels you got something. Be it an ability, class passive, or utility. It was properly and evenly spaced out so that way when you are levelling you feel like you are always getting something. For example at level 12 you could get a buff to your main AOE filler ability helping out with dealing with groups of mobs at the beginning and getting the most use out of it, in 7.0 you don't get that till around level 64 when you are more than likely in the DLC content period and have already gotten a vast majority of your abilities. 

The whole ability tree system goes against what they wanted to do with the discipline system and is overall a major downgrade combined with the unnecessary pruning.

II. Implement a proper PVP revamp to fix the issues and add some form of Competitive mode back into the game. 

I'm not going to go into super details about PVP, that discussion has flooded the forums. Ask anyone about PVP and they will tell you it is a hot mess. Premades or grouped players have been ruining the health of PVP. They get into these meta compositions usually with a tank or healer and just farm and tunnel solo players. Not to mention they clog the Q times and punish solo players with them often forcing them to wait 5-10 minutes to get into a match only to be tunneled by said premade. 

Combine this with the fact that there is no real actual competitive mode (i.e something like Ranked) and PVP has just been declining rapidly. 

Premades need to be limited back down to 4 there should be no reason for allowing up to 8 players to tunnel a bunch of solo players. There needs to be a ranked like mode, be it returning ranked itself or adding what myself and others have suggested that being a leaderboard system. PVP needs to have that competitive game for those who want to go that extra mile. 

Additionally there needs to be new PVP maps and modes. Warzones needs some fresh new content, players are burnt out playing the same huttball or voidstar over and over again.

PVP overall though is in desperate need of some proper good changes if we want to maintain a healthy PVP population. 

III. Better and more engaging gearing system.

This one may be controversial to some but I find that the current gearing system is not that engaging. Endgame gearing is basically playing something like nim nefra or dash just to get the operation gear and break it down into mods. While the recent changes to gearing are a good sign and good changes. Gearing though I feel has been a step back from 6.0. Tacticals while mainly unchanged in 7.0 have been a balancing headache. Uptime tacticals especially are terrible due to the fact that most of the specs that have them are balanced around them and ticking the DOT the tactical has. This is why Arsenal/Annihilation/Marksman are in bad spots right now they lack killing power of any kind are just relegated to "fluff" specs. On the other side of tacticals we have broken ones like Ionic discharge which makes an already strong class (That being engineering) even more powerful with ability to hit 100K plus crits in PVP easily. 

Not to mention I see a ton of players running terrible garbage generic tacticals instead of their discipline specific ones. 

If they wanted to prune something from the game, remove these garbage general tacticals and keep the class ones.

The other thing I have an issue with is Implants. Implants feel like tacticals where some are great and some are trash. Classes like PT have implants like Veteran ranger, Supercommando, Shock trooper, mandalorian armaments, etc. They actually have a decent variety to pick from and they are actually decent implants. Than you have something like Target Eliminator for merc which provides a whopping 2% DMG increase for 15 secs, but has a 30 sec cooldown making it inferior to overcharge cells.

Overall maybe its just me but I want to go back to the set based system they had in 6.0 and prior expansions. There were problematic sets but I feel overall that my character was just far stronger in 6.0 than they are now (Ignoring pruning). Overall I also felt that sets just offered better bang for you buck of when you were gearing for them.

IV. Resurrect the GSF Community.

I'm going to be honest. I have never played a single match of GSF or Galactic Starfighter in the 7 years I have been playing SWTOR. I don't care for the game mode itself its just not my cup of tea. However there is a passionate community surrounding it. GSF is basically kind of dead nowadays, I see players on fleet begging for other players to Q into GSF. I do understand however that GSF needs some attention from the Devs. In the many years playing SWTOR I cannot recall much of any work or updates being done to GSF. The communtiy needs some new content in some way be it maps, modes, new ships, etc. They need something to hold onto and feel that they are still acknowledged by the team. Why not give the GSF players their own mini season to start some content with. Do a basic 10-15 tier season for GSF with y'know just a unique Armor for it maybe some titles, and a couple other goodies. Do that and test the waters to see if people snag onto it and if they do expand it even further.

V. Better communication from the developers and being more receptive to player feedback. 

A big one, the Dev's need to communicate with us players more. We should not be in the dark for months at a time without hearing anything. We should not be getting these surprise changes on content releases that none of the players wanted. We should also once in a while get some acknowledgement on player feedback. Obviously they cannot respond to everything but once in a while just a simple response will go a long way. Even in the Twitch streams at least take a couple minutes to respond to the chat before or after the stream. 

I also think the Dev's should do community game nights to help build relations with the community, do some PVP or some raids or even just play through a class story.

Overall more engagement and communication with us the players will go a long ways in building better relations.

VI. Quality Story Content and PVE Content. 

The biggest one for all of us. We want quality story content that is fully voiced and story that is not just a half hour to an hour long. Players are more than willing to wait for higher quality story expansion releases. In fact I'd be fine if we just got two big story expansion at  the beginning of the year and holiday seasons with maybe a small or middle sized one during summer. Additionally bring back class identity into this game players want to feel connected to their classes. Everyone is  tired of being looped as the "Commander" character and want to feel like our original class stories again. 

Try and wrap up this Mandalorian storyline its been dragged out for so long and players want to go back to Empire vs Republic its the bread and butter of what players like in terms of story. 

Regarding endgame PVE content, we need a new operation, we need some new flashpoints, we need new something for PVE content to help fill the spaces between updates. Nim R-4 is something that has been asked for a long time, why not also add Nim versions of older raids that didn't have a Nim difficulty. 

There is a ton that can be done for PVE content and i'm sure the community has some great ideas.

 

There is a lot I just typed and a lot to take in. I understand that my suggestions may differ from other players and thats fine. I do feel strongly though and wish to see the dev's take the time to listen to our feedback. If and when we get 8.0 which given the track record might come out next year the Dev's need to look at what worked and what didn't in 7.0. There were some good things, but I feel that the bad is overcoming the good that came with 7.0. 

 

EDIT: I'm seeing people on the SWTOR reddit say maintenance mode over and over again. I am pretty sure the people who keep throwing that term don't actually know what maintenance mode is. here is an article going over what Maintenance mode actually is. But i'm going to highlight this key sentence 

Quote

Maintenance mode is the point when an MMO is being maintained reliably but isn’t being actively developed any longer. This is almost always a net result of the game being older and not having much in the way of budget and/or active playerbase left to really appreciate active development.

Development hasn't ended on SWTOR so the game is not in maintenance just a slower and more minimal content release cycle.

UPDATE 2: This was a post asking for players to sign a petition for the Dev's to improve the game. However I have since closed it due to players being rude and toxic (At least on the Reddit) I am keeping this forum page though as I believe it is a good discussion point to have about these issues.

Edited August 23 by SentinalMasterWW
Petition Closed due to infighting.

[WaffleQwop]

No surprise the "great and virtuous" people of Reddit had a problem with this, and it should be no surprise. Intelligence is not something great in abundance on Reddit. Anyways, I completely agree with pretty much all your points. Undo the pruning and give back classes their abilities. When they did these changes, they really only had time to work on Juggernaut and ran out of time to properly balance the other classes, so now some feel good and some feel terrible. The Tactical and Implant issue is very problematic, as you have stated, especially when it comes to uptime tacticals. Certain classes are just so much weaker than others because of the lack of options when it comes to meaningful tacticals and implants. 

PvP needs a lot of care and attention, but a simple first step is reducing the premade group size from 8 to 4 maximum. I also agree with you on the PvE front, why not add back the NiM EV and KP raids? They were once a thing and sadly some players can not get those achievements anymore. These are great starters for people just getting into NiM raids. Also NiM R4, the promise that was not kept. I actually don't think many players even in the NiM community even care about NiM R4 anymore just because of how long it has been since R4 came out, but it still should be added and there needs to be a new raid. 

If nothing significant is done to PvP or endgame PvE content, the player base that partakes in either game mode will continue to diminish. 

 

[Luciferior]

Ill go ahead and agree with just about all thats being here my main thoughts though are in order to save the game we need devs who actually care about it and the product they release and whether its PvE or PvP atm personally I feel like the standards of quality for either game mode are severely lacking and that reflects directly on the people working on them...

Keeping a mental note the share holders and people behind the scenes pulling the strings about what can or cannot be done in the game is one thing ...I dont know where this games quality assurance department is hiding at or if they even have one atm but I dont feel like the people working on this game have their hearts into it anymore..

When they dont have any passion or care about the product they release when it ships it looks like a steamy pile of dog crap the players who still support the game with subscriptions have to wonder if the development teams even care anymore about the stuff they put out...

Even when they do a live stream I feel like im watching a weather report on the 6 clock nightly news its gona be partially sunny tomorrow...

If the people giving out the updates for whats happening on the game cant even psych them selves up for the coming "content" then how are the players going to do it?

When the people doing the live streams are looking around like they would rather be somewhere else or doing something else and then a half bake product ships full of bugs with no care or pride put into the product those kinds of thing show for the entire player base to see and imo it isnt a good look for a company trying desperately to convince its playerbase that they still care about the work they do...

 

Just like when they live stream and the topic of PvP comes up you can damn near hear the crickets chirping in the background while the rest of ambient silence over takes the awkward moment when it finally passes the they sigh with a sense of relief like *Phew glad thats over*

Edited August 22 by Luciferior

[xxSHOONYxx]

You're missing a point 7.
How will the devs get the money to do all you want.

At the end of the day swtor without being star wars would be dead, because in every aspect a different mmo is better at it. They only aspect they were better at was VA and story which is one of the reasons that lead to the death as an mmo. 
Like every couple of weeks you make a post like this, and props for caring, but for your own good if you don't enjoy this game go and find one you actually like.
 

57 minutes ago, WaffleQwop said:

I actually don't think many players even in the NiM community even care about NiM R4 anymore just because of how long it has been since R4 came out, but it still should be added and there needs to be a new raid.

Most nim raiders were kicked over the years by the devs with the lack of content/broken promises. 
Those that remain are mainly new and haven't done every op achievement or have nothing going on in their lives so being good at a game is their highlight.

[WaffleQwop]

1 minute ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

You're missing a point 7.
How will the devs get the money to do all you want.

Thing is, a lot of these things aren't even a matter of development, it's already been done and just needs to be reverted to how it was (speaking on undoing pruning, fixing 8 man premades in PvP, and EV/KP NiM). Just doing those few things right there would make a ton of people happy. I think everyone would feel a lot better about the game and it's state if the Devs made some effort to reach out to the PvE and PvP community instead of ignoring them.

[Luciferior]

Wait till the next live stream that comes out another 45 min story mission with a random date night followed by much much more...

Their much much more content will be ...Water is wet and they are selling bridges in the middle of nowhere for any would be buyers..

This company seems to think this is a game of poker that they can bluff their way thru yet the player base is getting fed up and is going to call them on their bs and when the cards lay flat on the table and these devs dont have squat to show its going to be real awkward when 8.0 comes around to see if they are gona try to sell us another "Expansion" and if it reeks of anything like the previous one and its so called delights of content....

I think their gona be struggling to keep the lights on where they work when the last few players dont renew their subs and cease buying all of this random shiny garbage in the cartel market...

The next expansion will be titled... Bridges to nowhere...

Edited August 22 by Luciferior

[xxSHOONYxx]

37 minutes ago, WaffleQwop said:

Thing is, a lot of these things aren't even a matter of development, it's already been done and just needs to be reverted to how it was (speaking on undoing pruning, fixing 8 man premades in PvP, and EV/KP NiM). Just doing those few things right there would make a ton of people happy. I think everyone would feel a lot better about the game and it's state if the Devs made some effort to reach out to the PvE and PvP community instead of ignoring them.

Going by what the op said and not the examples you gave.

- I never liked nor disliked ability pruning, so i had no bone to pick on that, but would open a can of worms with class balance which will need to be addressed. And not like i have been keeping up with the game but when i read resent posts of the forum i often see people asking about class balance which seems they even stopped doing that?

- Fixing 8 man premade should be as easy as changing a number on the code or a bool, depending on how the game is coded.
But adding competitive has 2 big issues in my eyes, first the population of the game and pvp, for a truly ranked game and queue you need a LOT of players or your queue time goes down the drain (even games like lol with millions of players in the higher ranks the queues can go up to +20 minutes), if it pairs you up with whatever mmr then it's not a competitive match.
And second any competitive mode will have people trying to cheat it, whether bugs/cheats or win trading. I've heard stories of people losing "legit" according to them rank 3s rewards and then it comes out those "legit" players paid someone to give them those ranks or win trade to get them. Those things requiere manpower to make it fair for everyone and cheater/win trader free.
Making new maps and modes requiere also work on them.

- EV KP nim were deleted at the release of 4.0, and regardless of the reason they gave which i don't remember to me it was probably so people wouldn't gear too fast with an easy operation which was pretty much a bosses with a bit more hp. Nefra and dashroode would be the old thing and people would run EV and KP nim and gear in a couple of hours. If ev and kp would need to be reintroduced it would need to be tuned and added mechanics or not reward nim drops which people will then complain. And of course more story with VA, new fps and new ops also requieres more work.

Things may seem easy on paper but is not as easy as it seems
The game to become a good mmo needs a lot of work and money, and even if they somehow get the money and fix it they already broke the trust of the people they drove away so it begs the question, those that quit, will they even come back when they distrust the devs?

Edited August 22 by xxSHOONYxx

[ThanderSnB]

SWTOR's reddit seems to be full of superfans. I rarely see any major criticism there. People who do get downvoted a bunch.

Anyways, I don't think any petition will work. That doesn't get developers to respond. The only thing that works is mass players unsubscribing combined with negative feedback (so the developers know what they need to change to get those people back). I've only seen this happen one time recently: before Life Day when they announced there would be no collection unlock sale, so many people were leaving it forced them to bring the collection sale back. This is very effective. The problem is it takes an issue that all players care enough about. As bad as some of these problems you listed are, they haven't angered the players enough to cause a large percentage to unsubscribe.

[septru]

im ngl, but no one wants to read essays on a petition that you created that will have 0 impact on anything

[WaffleQwop]

5 minutes ago, septru said:

im ngl, but no one wants to read essays on a petition that you created that will have 0 impact on anything

I understand your sentiment but if you don't want to read a post, then don't respond to said post. But people care about the game a lot, and if no one ever said anything, then nothing would probably ever get changed.

[Strathkin]

   

On 8/22/2024 at 4:01 PM, septru said:

im ngl, but no one wants to read essays on a petition that you created that will have 0 impact on anything

I kind of agree, yet also see @WaffleQwop point too!  So it's why I tried to shorten his statements into key points; thought I'd give it a try. 

On 8/22/2024 at 1:07 AM, SentinalMasterWW said:

• Premades need to be limited back down to 4 there should be no reason for allowing up to 8 players to tunnel a bunch of solo players. 
• Additionally there needs to be new PVP maps and modes.
•  I see players on fleet begging for other players to Q into GSF. I do understand however that GSF needs some attention from the Devs. 
• Tacticals while mainly unchanged in 7.0 have been a balancing headache. 
• The other thing I have an issue with is Implants. Implants feel like tacticals where some are great and some are trash.
• A big one, the Dev's need to communicate with us players more.
• We want quality story content that is fully voiced and story that is not just a half hour to an hour long.
• Everyone is tired of being looped as the "Commander" character and want to feel like our original class stories again. 
• Try and wrap up this Mandalorian storyline its been dragged out... ...players want to go back to Empire vs Republic its the bread and butter of what players like!
• Regarding endgame PVE content, we need a new operation, we need some new flashpoints, we need new something for PVE content to help fill the spaces between updates. 

Development hasn't ended on SWTOR so the game is not in maintenance just a slower and more minimal content release cycle.

I summarized these down to the big core points (it quote above) so it's short form and easier to follow, generally however despite not being someone big on PvP, I also realize 80% if not more largely focus on PvE activities.  Still adding a new PvP map, for one of either a Warzone, Arena or GSF; based on which is seeing lowest participation be good!  Or asked as part of my later suggestion in a Poll?  

Yes I agree however, it be nice to see more weaker Tacticals & Implants (slightly) improved, to offer more viable choices; not a nerf &/or huge buff either tho!

1. Now given the smaller team, I'd be fine if they focused on a larger PvE Story update at the start of year, with perhaps going to a new Planet with larger map perhaps even if not quite an Alderaan or Hoth.  Perhaps they use that time to focus on an Event Operation which is shorter (typical 1 boss operation with various adds) similar to Rakghoul &/or Gree; some like Bounty Hunter are missing an Operation &/or Heroic, as is several Seasonal Events.  
2. Quarterly Updates could then take us back, to slightly expand the Story on those Planets after intermission, while mostly focused on New Flashpoint to further tell Story.  With any time left on Events / Ventures / Seasons / Rewards enhancements.
3. Then later Mid-Year focused on revisiting Older Planets in a New Area which focus on Smaller Maps which continue story...  ...that allow for a Full Operation each year & perhaps might allow for 1 New map for PvP &/or GSF as well, possible others based on this next point.  

Yet if they asked us a year out in advance, perhaps 2 times a year they could Poll us so people felt more engaged!  Polls however can allow for some to have their vote count more than once; especially in households with multiple accounts, where they may be the same person.  Yet to keep things simple, allow each person who has subscribed 180 (30 per Month) days out of the last year a vote; that might also encourage more active Subscribers too!

NOTE: For polls to be effective, must ask specific questions 3-4 choices at most, and contain 2, or 3 seperate things to ask on; too many options provides no focus. 

On 8/22/2024 at 10:53 AM, xxSHOONYxx said:

- I never liked nor disliked ability pruning, so i had no bone to pick on that, but would open a can of worms with class balance...

• And second any competitive mode will have people trying to cheat it, whether bugs/cheats or win trading.
• Making new maps and modes requiere also work on them.
• Things may seem easy on paper but is not as easy as it seems
• ...they already broke the trust of the people they drove away so it begs the question, those that quit, will they even come back when they distrust the devs?

I'd agree with many of these points! Baby steps, not drastic changes is wise.  

Still those are my only thoughts, some things in 7.0 I've warmed up to despite unsubscribing back then, and fear doing too much complicate balance issues: 

• At Level 15 it enabled two abilities, which is the only time you are given this two choice; does this need to be so? 
• Perhaps at 64 (or 68) level grants two choices, one more powerful (default) ability, with one utility choice, not both pruned options?  

I've tried very hard to keep this concise as I could, yet wanted to focus on the idea of more Polling Regular Subscriber's more!

UPDATE: Made slight revision to 3 numbered points for clarity.

Edited September 1 by Strathkin

[SentinalMasterWW]

11 minutes ago, WaffleQwop said:

Oh gee thanks for linking that. tl;dr "blah blah you know EA likes money right?", "lol idk what you're talking about" "um AKSCHUALLY you do realize majority of players never touch a non-solo flashpoint right?" and etc. I love Reddit and their toxic hive mind where loser monkeys post all day thinking that they actually know everything and anything.

For the record, everything in OP's post has been getting brought up by countless people on SWTOR forums for months and months. These are not some new radical ideas, these are things that people have been asking for, for quite a long time. Of course, most won't know this because most people don't actually spend any decent amount of time on these forums or even on the SWTOR reddit. 

Appreciate it and yeah if anyone wants to click the link to see what the Reddit page go ahead.

None of the things I have stated or asked for is extreme or something I and only me want. The way they go about it sure we can argue on the best way to approach PVP, pruning, etc. But at the end of the day these are all things players here have asked for to be addressed.

People on the Reddit page basically kept saying "game dead" without any real proof of the game being dead or saying maintenance mode. These two phrases have been said over and over again since I came back in 2017 even before 7.0 or 6.0. 

If you generally talk with people who have been around in the game for a while, the things I brought up are what they are asking for. 

7 hours ago, Luciferior said:

Wait till the next live stream that comes out another 45 min story mission with a random date night followed by much much more...

Their much much more content will be ...Water is wet and they are selling bridges in the middle of nowhere for any would be buyers..

This company seems to think this is a game of poker that they can bluff their way thru yet the player base is getting fed up and is going to call them on their bs and when the cards lay flat on the table and these devs dont have squat to show its going to be real awkward when 8.0 comes around to see if they are gona try to sell us another "Expansion" and if it reeks of anything like the previous one and its so called delights of content....

I think their gona be struggling to keep the lights on where they work when the last few players dont renew their subs and cease buying all of this random shiny garbage in the cartel market...

The next expansion will be titled... Bridges to nowhere...

That's my main concern if we get an 8.0 at all. 8.0 has to renew player interest in the game, if its the current status quo the game is going to be in massive trouble. Their general philosophy towards 7.0 has been having players rerun old content again and again mainly for the seasons tracks. Players get bored running the same old content, I even made a post on the burnout problem SWTOR is having. 

1 hour ago, Strathkin said:

   

I kind of agree, yet also see @WaffleQwop point too!  So it's why I tried to shorten his statements into key points; thought I'd give it a try. 

I summarized these down to the big core points so it's short form and easier to follow, generally however despite not being someone big on PvP, I also realize 80% if not more largely focus on PvE activities.  Still adding a new PvP map, for one of either a Warzone, Arena or GSF, based on which is seeing lowest participation be good!  Or asked as part of my later suggestion in a Poll?

Yes I agree however, it be nice to see a more weeker Tacticals & Implants (slightly) improved, to offer a more viable choices; not a nerf &/or huge buff either tho!

1. Now given the smaller team, I'd be fine if they focused on a larger PvE Story update at the start of year, with perhaps going to a new Planet with larger map perhaps even if not quite an Alderaan or Hoth.  Perhaps they use that time to focus on an Event Operation which is shorter (typical 1 boss operation with various adds) similar to Rakghoul &/or Gree; some like Bounty Hunter are missing an Operation &/or Heroic, as is several Seasonal Events.  
2. Quarterly Updates could then take us back, to slightly expand the Story on those Planets after intermission, while mostly focused on New Flashpoint to further tell Story.  With any time left on Event updates / Ventures / Seasons / Rewards enhancements.
3. Then later Mid-Year focused on revisiting Older Planets in a New Area which focus on Smaller Maps which continue story...  ...that might allow for a Full Operation each year & perhaps might allow for 1 New map for PvP &/or GSF as well, possible others based on this next point.  

Yet if they asked us a year out in advance, perhaps 2 times a year they could Poll us so people felt more engaged!  Polls however can allow for some to have their vote count more than once; especially in households with multiple accounts, where they may be the same person.  Yet to keep things simple, allow each person who has subscribed 180 (30 per Month) days out of the last year a vote; that might also encourage more active Subscribers too!

I'd agree with many of these points! Baby steps, not drastic changes is wise.  

Still those are my only thoughts, some things in 7.0 I've warmed up to despite unsubscribing back then, and fear doing too much complicate balance issues: 

• At Level 15 it enabled two abilities, which is the only time you are given this two choice; does this need to be so? 
• Perhaps at 64 level grants two choices, one more powerful ability, with one utility choice, not both the pruned options?  

I've tried very hard to keep this concise as I could, yet wanted to focus on the idea of more Polling Regular Subscriber's more!

UPDATE: Made slight revision to 3 numbered points for clarity.

Thanks for summing up my points and ramblings had a lot to say on this matter ❤️

But I definitely agree send out another poll or make a forum post to get feedback, make the initiative to engage with the community to see what content players want. 

 

[Luciferior]

@SentinalMasterWW They kind of have to be working on something legit for 8.0 because I think its obvious to even them at this point that if they dont have something big to show that is actually gona be worth playing the chances of people keeping their subs up to play for 45 min story mode quests and some date nights feels slimmer by the day lol  ...much as I want a date night with my Akaavi that aint worth $15 a month to me lol ...

I would actually just prefer that they to come out and say what they have in mind for future content rather then stringing us along if they cant or wont do certain things anymore then they need to make it official so people arent feeling obligated to stick around out of the slim possible remote chance that something may change..

Imo waiting 3-6 months at a time for the next patch release watching the live streams only to see lack luster content is like waking up early christmas morning to see what presents you got only to find out you got a freaking ugly ass sweater

Tbh I didnt mind revisiting the older maps but planets like Ord Mantel on SF is dead anyways same for Hutta doing 80 areas for em felt like a complete waste of time there isnt crap thats worth doing there atleast on Ruhnuk I felt Like I was doing something yet these 2 maps did nothing but depress me even when I went to the 80 Hutta recently I saw one other person it was a straight ghost town..

Assuming we even make it to 8.0 Ill give them one last chance but I swear lol if they try to pedal some bs or sell me another quarter completed expansion with no real PvP content hell Id take a big class balance shake up atm just to keep things moving but if they cant even do that then I might run for the hills known as New World again while I give this one a break lol

ESO does a yearly reveal at the beginning of the year to pretty much give a general idea of whats gona happen this year in terms of content and while ESO has its own multitude of problems I kind of like the yearly reveal because it gives me a general idea of soon as I see what they are planning I resolve it in my mind right there If I am going to hold firm and play the game while I wait for the newer content or if I dont find any of the info even remotely interesting and decide to play a different game..

And Imo thats one old republic needs to do I am stick of these dollar store live streams they got going here where its galactic season *with no interesting rewards* ...pvp track season the same reskinned garbage armor ..oh we have a story mission coming ...wait its one of those we complete in 45 mins with our eyes closed toss in a few date nights and that seems to be their cadence for releasing content...

It feels cheap poorly done and when the live stream ends I have to ask my self how I can justify continuing to give these people money for this game lol...

 

Edited August 23 by Luciferior

[Wulfurkin]

Wouldnt say its pointless to share opinions but j also dont agree with most of this. Ability prunjng and the combat style system were a good change. You dont need 30 abilities when the same effects can possibly be achieved with 10 of them. Also the combat styles make it instantly clear what your character is capable of. As for pvp of any kind, id hate to burst your bubble but it was already dead, the devs realised this and stopped wasting their resources on it. Gearing i  agree on, the deconstruct thing is too confusing, just make the progression lineair. All in all i dont think this is a game in need of saving. There are a lot of players and guilds making it a fun experience. It seems many on these forums are just clinically stuck in the past.

[Salikaxus]

1 hour ago, Wulfurkin said:

You dont need 30 abilities when the same effects can possibly be achieved with 10 of them

Mad dash, reflect, intimidating roar. Predation, snaring slash, root on ravage. Memefiltration, flashbang and Holo traverse. Hydros, electro dart and heal on shoulder cannon.

I'll stop here.
Literally every class and spec in the game has this kind of a set up.  Where the choices are well not really choices on one hand since 1 of the options is so much better than the others or having to choose between 2 or even 3 equally viable options for different situations. Which turns to an even higher level where 2 out of those 3 or all 3 could be useful in certain boss fight or pvp.

Most of these were actual abilities these specs/classes had for 10+ years. Now they don't.

Unlike you I do need them and I would love to have them back.
Having to pick between reflect or mad dash sucks, having literally no other option than predation since predation is literally top tier stuff sucks, having the useless infiltrate, an aoe mezz that may be useful in some niche situation and some pvp scenarios or a gap close/escape that gives me an extra TA also sucks, having to always pick Hydros for their absolute peak utility and not have a hard stun in pvp sucks.

Pts have to spec into their leap as well as it's not baseline, same as hydros. Sure pts can spam rapid shots from 30 meters but anything meaningful dmg or tanking wise happens in 4 meters range.

Yes there is grapple which is baseline, but there is boss immunities or resolve bars as well plus the endless scenarios where pulling 1 of their guys into your team can end up badly for you.

[HypSpec]

On the concept of taking a poll, I feel this is what the returns would look like and speaks to the underlying challenge of having to prioritize with limited resources and budget.

(n=100 and not an exhaustive list - just for illustration)

• More story content = 13
• Class balance/Tacticals/Impants = 10
• Remove pruning = 9
• Streamlined gear system = 10 
• Enhance PvP = 8
• Additional playable species = 10
• More appearance mods = 10
• Fixing persistent bugs = 10
• Enhancing graphics = 8
• New planet = 12

Point being is that there are a wide range of potential improvements/additions to the game but player opinions are widely different. I think identifying clear majority winners would be unlikely. As such, what would a dev team prioritize? If they could do half of these well, players prioritizing the others would still scream they are not being listened to. Going deep on only 1-2 of these is what would be required for some of the asks floating around (i.e., remove pruning - this is not a revert button from a dev perspective), and would result in a larger block of players saying they are not doing enough.

I think the pragmatism here is that the dev team is trying to cater to as many players inputs as they can within the limitations they are operating under. While I would look forward to many of things that have been promoted, I am realistic that most will not happen, but I plan to continue to subscribe since I am happy enough with what we have and the incremental adds I expect will continue.

Also, I felt this video from MMOByte was some good outside perspective on the state of the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEqCbJUz4G4

Edited August 23 by HypSpec

[Luciferior]

The ability pruning i am semi on the fence in regards to I dont think the classes should be overloaded with a skill for every situation but at the same time for specs like mine Im back on my commando I am using one man army instead of the adrenal trait so my adrenal skill wont heal as far so I die alot faster then I normally would...

At the same time though I dont want to be like every other merc/commando dps with a bar of DCDs just being a walking punching bag ...

Once my reflect is done which I have to save if I get focused because too many of these guys on SF know I am not running the trait so they lock me down lol I dont blame em but soon as the reflect is gone I am a dead man walking and tbh I am getting tired of going back to my sharp shooter slinger just so I can kill something..

I realize some of this is due to the gunnery/arsenal spec not being overly great atm I dont wana farm damage numbers on the scoreboard I want to blow people away with my assault cannon but the way it feels atm its like id be better off removing all of the damage mods enhancements from my gear and slotting defense mods/enhancements and make a gunnery slow spam tank lol

Edited August 23 by Luciferior

[Otowi]

Regarding undoing the pruning. That will be difficult at this point, since so much has happened since then. It will be very difficult I imagine, and getting it right would be very hard. Also knowing the spaghetti code of this game, even if it were possible, would bring with it a host of bugs. It would also be very expensive, and that is the main point really.

I don't think it will happen, and would it really make many players return? Sure some would, but the net loss of undoing the pruning would not be worth a few players returning at this point. It would be better to have a rethink of when players are given new abilities and attacks, and that I think is more likely to happen rather than risking untold bugs and using money and dev time on it.

[ThanderSnB]

15 hours ago, Luciferior said:

They kind of have to be working on something legit for 8.0 because I think its obvious to even them at this point that if they dont have something big to show that is actually gona be worth playing the chances of people keeping their subs up to play for 45 min story mode quests and some date nights feels slimmer by the day lol  ...much as I want a date night with my Akaavi that aint worth $15 a month to me lol ...

For most players, SWTOR is best in small doses. Lots of people come by once a year to check out new stuff, then leave for another year. It works well for a lot of players.

[Luciferior]

@ThanderSnB For players doing quests rp stories pve side of stuff maybe that is the case but Im going to take a wild guess here and say when it comes to PvP wed like some actual content and the PvP seasons they have atm are not it lol

[septru]

On 8/22/2024 at 9:23 PM, SentinalMasterWW said:

But at the end of the day these are all things players here have asked for to be addressed.

They are also all things that will never happen. It's nice that you're trying but you aren't the first (trust me, I was one of them) nor will you be the last that has tried. Many players have been complaining for years. Nothing has ever happened happen. Nothing will ever happen. 

 

These 10 page long essays are the ultimate exercise in naive futility. You are hoping for this game to be something that it's not. Putting aside the RP/Story player cliques of the Reddit community, your reddit fans are right about one thing: none of these fantasies will ever come true. 

Edited August 24 by septru

[SentinalMasterWW]

3 hours ago, septru said:

They are also all things that will never happen. It's nice that you're trying but you aren't the first (trust me, I was one of them) nor will you be the last that has tried. Many players have been complaining for years. Nothing has ever happened happen. Nothing will ever happen. 

 

These 10 page long essays are the ultimate exercise in naive futility. You are hoping for this game to be something that it's not. Putting aside the RP/Story player cliques of the Reddit community, your reddit fans are right about one thing: you are delusional. 

 

Barring Adding new Content there are things we could see the Dev's implement that are within their power to do so. 

• Limiting Premades down to 4
• Smoothing out the levelling Experiance 
• Better and more Fair Class Balancing 
• Fixing and buffing or Reworking Class Implants and Tacticals 
• Adding more Credit Sinks to the game 

These are just a few things and i'm sure there is more, but is it delusional to ask for these? Things that can easily be done in one of these content drops?

Going back to what @Luciferior said they have to be working on something big if there is an 8.0 coming which more than likely is given just how much money this game makes given this old article here a few years back. SWTOR prints money and  I don't see them shuttering the game for that reason. They know they cant launch a new expansion and just have it be new seasons and a 8 minute Date night. As far as we know who knows what they have planned for an 8.0 if that is in the discussions right now, maybe they are going to revert pruning, maybe they are going to increase the level cap. A lot of the big changes to the game would come at an expansion launch as prior releases have shown. 

 

And if you think my posts are delusional rantings than do the following as Waffle stated.

On 8/22/2024 at 4:11 PM, WaffleQwop said:

I understand your sentiment but if you don't want to read a post, then don't respond to said post. But people care about the game a lot, and if no one ever said anything, then nothing would probably ever get changed.

 

[Naomori]

Since I don't raid or play PvP, apart from when I'm forced to (Pierce/4X recruitment...), I won't have an opinion on those points. But I agree with the rest of the points, especially regarding the story content. All we seem to get these days are 45min story maybe twice a year, and an endless array of seasons.

With the release of the latest season, I just don't really feel like logging in. Which makes me rather sad, as this is at it's core, a very good game that I've spent a lot of time playing.

[PlasmaJohn]

7 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

• Adding more Credit Sinks to the game

I'll admit to skimming the original wall-o-text but I'm not sure which major point that fell under.  I'll take it at face value then.

MMO players in general (and some developers) often believe that very expensive one time purchases are an effective credit sink.  The key parts of that phrase are "one time" and "expensive".   The latter just makes it unappealing to anybody but the super-rich.  Combined with the former it means it'll hardly make a dent in the amount of currency in circulation.

What does work are the unavoidable fees like repair bills and auction house taxes.  The best credit sinks are the ones that fly under most player's impulse buy threshold.  Many rightfully believe that Broadsword went beyond the pale when addressing the inflation caused by their own neglect.

So are you really asking for more Broadsword style fees or just something to spend your credits on?

 

8 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

... given just how much money this game makes given this old article here a few years back

Not quite one billion in gross revenue over seven years for team of their size is appalling.  After license fees, workforce costs (salary, benefits, office space, equipment, etc.), and publisher's cut it really doesn't amount to much.  I'd bet that a significant portion of that figure came just after the Cartel Market was introduced but based on some of the antics they've pulled since (cutting out the content passes and dribbling out the KotFE/ET chapters among other practices to keep players subscribed) that inrush of revenue was a very short term boost.

 

8 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

• Better and more Fair Class Balancing 
• Fixing and buffing or Reworking Class Implants and Tacticals

I had very little faith in their ability to balance classes even before the team was cut in half.  The only balance news I'd welcome would be an announcement that PvE and PvP skill sets work independent of each other.  I'd be happy to be pleasantly surprised but I'm not holding my breath.

 

8 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

• Smoothing out the levelling Experiance 

This I could get behind if they rearranged the skills in such a way that the player had their core rotation and utility before they left their respective capital world.

[ADarklore]

IMO, being a new player to the game, hearing that they reduced the number of skills was actually what prompted me to start playing.  Considering that I always play with controller, previously it would be a huge struggle for me to memorize tons of skills over several skill bars.  However, I think the skill 'pruning' actually brought more players to the game because it made the game simpler- especially for controller users.  SWTOR being an aged game, like all aged games, sees a player decline in later years.  So what can they do to bring in NEW players, by making the game attractive to players- such as casual players, solo players and controller players.  I've been loving the game, and seeing TONS of new players (or at least new characters) with every new character I've created.

We also need to realize that the dev team on SWTOR has diminished, as well as has their budget.  In reality, they can no longer afford to have a sound engineer and voice actors IMO.  Hence the reason they haven't had voice acted content in some time.  EA, I'm sure, has cut their budget down to the very bare minimum... which is to be expected on a 13 year old game.  It's still considered to be around #20 in top MMOs, with monthly active players stated around 14K.  However, being F2P, how many of them maintain active subs or spend money in the cash shop?  Even ESO stated years ago that subscriptions do not maintain the game, it's money spent in the cash shop that keeps the game going.  To that end, it's NEW players that typically spend the most in the cash shop- myself included- because I want the cool stuff for my new characters and am willing to spend to get them.  A game keeps me interested if I like the appearance of the character, their mount, outfit, lightsaber, etc.  Whereas long-term players typically bought most of the stuff long ago and therefore no longer contribute to the current budget, other than perhaps a sub.  Again, ESO has the same exact problem, which is why the game tends to cater to NEW players versus veteran players. 

The devs would have the numbers to know which content is/was most played, and therefore would also know which direction the game should go.  It's clear we are not in maintenance mode at this time, but I think based upon the transfer to Broadsword and the limited number of devs that also transferred, that we aren't going to see anything MASSIVE added to the game again, or really much in updates/changes going forward for that matter.  Sad, but that's the budget reality.  Just my opinion on the subject as a new player.