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Hord's Makashi Strike Tactical


AdjeYo

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So recently the Hord's Makashi Strike tactical got a buff (which is great), so I feel this is relevant to bring up again. The tactical has a fundamental problem. For those who don't know how it works, I'll describe it here. If you use Retaliation while Aegis Assault's buff is active (3% DR, 3% Absorb rate) you gain 7% DR, but lose the buff from Aegis Assault.

Overall that is a pretty good tradeoff, but there is a fundamental problem with this tactical. It is very possible (and indeed even best) to maintain both buffs. Simply use Retaliation right before you reapply Aegis Assault's buff, this way you consumse the Aegis buff, gain 7% DR, and immediately reapply the Aegis buff for a combined 10% DR and 3% Absorb rate. Pretty good.

So what's the issue? Well this way of playing is in direct contradiction with how Retaliation was always used, and more importantly in direct conflict with one of the only two tank legendary items for Juggs. That is the Retaliatior Package, which removes Retaliation's cooldown, clearly incentivising us to use Retaliation as much as possible.

So how do we fix it? I have several ideas that could work:

  1. The easiest fix, simply remove the consuming effect of this tactical, so both buffs can exist simultaneously without a problem, while we spam away Retaliation. If this provides too much DR, a small nerf would be acceptable.
  2. Make a new legendary item that somehow synergizes with this playstyle. Perhaps make Retaliation only useble after Crushing Blow (same CD as Aegis, so could line up perfectly for CB + Retaliation -> Aegis Assault), but gain some extra damage on Retaliation, or some defensive benefit, or some utility benefit. Could also be made part of the tactical, but this would still make the Retaliator Package useless.
  3. Make it impossible for both buffs to exist at the same time. Perhaps if the Retaliator buff is active, Aegis Assault simply refreshes its duration, but doesn't apply its own buff. Or Aegis Assault does nothing, but using Retaliation refreshes the buff's duration.
  4. My least favourite option, make a new legendary item that does something different altogether. That way at least we don't have to run a legendary item that we won't make any use of at all.

In conclusion I think that Hord's Makashi Strike is very much intended to be the main single target tactical for Juggs, and I do like the idea of it. However in its current state it is just incredibly annoying to use, and it invalidates one of our legendary items (that we're paying heaps of tech fragments for mind you), that just feels bad.

Edited by AdjeYo
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22 hours ago, Henyk said:

Tactical itself is good enough, all defence spec desperativly needs is to have both Saber Reflect and Blade Blitz abilities in same abilities build (not damned "choose one from two")

do you mind explaining this? name a boss for example where it is very disruptive to juggernaut tanks to only have one of the two?

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43 minutes ago, Henyk said:

Any VM boss with massive frontal attack or "big grenade" Titan at SnV

Interesting example, so the grenade is ofc force tech and aoe so yes, not reflectable. But it also isn't dashable since (at least on NM) it stuns. Being stunned your defense values drop to 0 so its (almost) impossible to avoid this damage with maddash. 

But let's say it would be possible, then why not just take dash. What is reflect for? The adds? Reflect on the boss has 0 value, there is nothing that could be reflected.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, juggernauts do not need both. They just don't, almost no boss in the game is significantly harder with just one of the two, but not both. Especially since mad dash is objectively just the better ability. Reflect has only two things - duration and damage, if either is wanted reflect is played - otherwise its always mad dash.

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4 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Interesting example, so the grenade is ofc force tech and aoe so yes, not reflectable. But it also isn't dashable since (at least on NM) it stuns. Being stunned your defense values drop to 0 so its (almost) impossible to avoid this damage with maddash. 

But let's say it would be possible, then why not just take dash. What is reflect for? The adds? Reflect on the boss has 0 value, there is nothing that could be reflected.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, juggernauts do not need both. They just don't, almost no boss in the game is significantly harder with just one of the two, but not both. Especially since mad dash is objectively just the better ability. Reflect has only two things - duration and damage, if either is wanted reflect is played - otherwise its always mad dash.

I'd be nice to have again on Brontes. Strictly need is a big term, it would help a lot though. I like reflect because in burn you can take multiple orbs with it (AoE taunt 2 or 3 that are together, single target taunt and charge one that is further), but it does mean after that you're a lot less effective taking orbs. And Dash is great against slams. And of course Saber Reflect is a pretty signature ability, it feels bad to take Mad Dash over it so often. I think I've made threats on wanting Reflect to be usable on melee abilities before (like merc reflect).

But that's all a bit off topic. The thread isn't about buffing or nerfing Juggs per se, moreso that I think the design of Hord's Makashi Strike is pretty wack.

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16 hours ago, Henyk said:

It's not about reflect itself but THREAT GENERATION

just taunt

16 hours ago, AdjeYo said:

I think the design of Hord's Makashi Strike is pretty wack

Yeah, I feel like this is the best way of describing the tactical

16 hours ago, AdjeYo said:

Strictly need is a big term, it would help a lot though. I like reflect because in burn you can take multiple orbs with it

Yeah I see that, i do feel like maddash is still just the more "iconic" or "class defining" ability than reflect. Personally I do not see a need for both abilities, on brontes there is plenty of options to take orbs and in my experience I run out of taunts before I run out of things to take the orbs with. In all honestly the only fight that came to my mind over the last day where it really was needed to have both was nahut, but I think its easy enough that healers can just carry - or just get more PTs.

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On 11/23/2023 at 12:17 PM, ZUHFB said:

Yeah I see that, i do feel like maddash is still just the more "iconic" or "class defining" ability than reflect. Personally I do not see a need for both abilities, on brontes there is plenty of options to take orbs and in my experience I run out of taunts before I run out of things to take the orbs with. In all honestly the only fight that came to my mind over the last day where it really was needed to have both was nahut, but I think its easy enough that healers can just carry - or just get more PTs.

I don't know, for my reflect really is much more iconic. Mad Dash actually feels more in direct conflict with the whole class concept. You got the whole heavily armoured bruiser kind of setup, inspired in no small part by Vader himself, it feels kinda wrong to be zipping around with Mad Dash. With Reflect having been a core ability for Juggernauts since 2.0. And the whole absorb damage to deal damage feels very Juggernaut.

Edited by AdjeYo
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On 11/22/2023 at 10:29 AM, ZUHFB said:

do you mind explaining this? name a boss for example where it is very disruptive to juggernaut tanks to only have one of the two?

 

You didn't ask me, but no-one mentioned Cartel Warlords yet, so I'll mention it: Cartel Warlords. It was very convenient way to deal with The End and required less tank swapping. Now we need to swap more frequently and/or bring a dwt to take some of them, which is stupid. 

Brontes was mentioned. My way to handle Brontes with the lack of speed and lack of ways to deal with the orbs is to bring a PT instead. 

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