The Future of SWTOR: Don't bother trying anymore

[Samcuu]

12 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Actually they didn’t mention any such thing. I suggest you rewatch what they actually said & then read Jackie’s written response to our questions regarding premades & matchmaking. 
The takeaway from both is the devs have zero plans at this stage to change anything unless they think their data says they should.

Maybe u weren't paying attention because it was just a passing mention, but yes Musco said that any class balancing changes or bug fixes, things along those lines, will be in the patch notes closer to release. 

[TrixxieTriss]

5 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

Maybe u weren't paying attention because it was just a passing mention, but yes Musco said that any class balancing changes or bug fixes, things along those lines, will be in the patch notes closer to release. 

Actually he said “if” there are ever any. He didn’t mention reducing premade sizes or matchmaking, which is what Sent was referring to in his post. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Samcuu]

6 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Actually he said “if” there are ever any. He didn’t mention reducing premade sizes or matchmaking, which is what Sent was referring to in his post. 

"Class Stacking, Meta Specs". Class balance covers both of these things. Im not going to argue semantics with you. In my reply I said "some of those things will be addressed in the patch notes" I didn't say all of them. And we haven't seen the patch notes yet so maybe wait until then to complain about this particular thing, no reason to until we see what they have or have not actually addressed. 

[TrixxieTriss]

Just now, Samcuu said:

"Class Stacking, Meta Specs". Class balance covers both of these things. Im not going to argue semantics with you. In my reply I said "some of those things will be addressed in the patch notes" I didn't say all of them. And we haven't seen the patch notes yet so maybe wait until then to complain about this particular thing, no reason to until we see what they have or have not actually addressed. 

Guess we’ll see 🤷🏻‍♀️

[OlBuzzard]

My own observations:  (some will like ... others will find contemptable)
** These people are not professional actors ... presentation was much better this time.  Please note that this comment does not mean that I approve of all of their content.
** Regardless of what each of us think about what was in (or absent from) the live stream DID tell us what their priorities are (and will probably continue to be).  It's up to each of us to decide whether or not we think those efforts are enough to keep us interested.  I for one see some positive.  I also see reasons (Plural) for concern.  
** For example:  the GS series still leaves a LOT to be desired (this time I hope you enjoy the dark side ... since it's something to embrace right up front).  AND if a player is primarily engaged in PvP ... OUCH!  There was some passing statements made but nothing that was clearly definitive.  
** Malgus fans??  (Never mind)
** Several updates that seemed promising.  The updates on some of the textures:  I have noticed some improvements.  Will that be true of all of them?  IMO some of that is subjective.
** Screen shot winners.  Congrats to those finalists.  
** I-rating increase.  That's cool.  As long as we have access to it : I'm tired of all of the gates and the confused mess it takes to sort out where to find what (and who has it).  I've seen worse in this game ... but that doesn't justify making this series a royal pain in the ...  tail feathers!

Bottom line:  I'll still make up my own mind.  I do have a clear-cut view of where the new (old) priorities are at.

I wouldn't count on 8.0

[Samcuu]

2 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Guess we’ll see 🤷🏻‍♀️

There should, at the minimum, be class balancing changes. Nobody disagrees with that. My point is at least wait for the patch notes, where they stated they'd reveal those types of changes, to complain if it doesn't happen. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Samcuu

[TrixxieTriss]

4 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

There should, at the minimum, be class balancing changes. Nobody disagrees with that. My point is at least wait for the patch notes, where they states they'd reveal those types of changes, to complain if it doesn't happen. 

Im questioning their decision to ignore matchmaking & premade sizes. Which I think are a much bigger issue than balance at the moment. 

[Samcuu]

4 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Im questioning their decision to ignore matchmaking & premade sizes. Which I think are a much bigger issue than balance at the moment. 

They are done with matchmaking, and I agree with their decision. If I want to play with a couple friends I dont want to sit in a queue all night. It's already too long and from experience I can tell you that it works because when I queue with my guild we almost always face another premade and it ends up being like a 3 v 6 and we are always outnumbered lol. 

Premade size I agree but that seems like an extremely easy fix if they want to revert it back to 4 man. Maybe they will, maybe it's an oversight that they've not done it yet. I don't understand why they wouldn't, I don't think there would be anyone that would complain about it. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Samcuu

[TrixxieTriss]

8 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

Premade size I agree but that seems like an extremely easy fix if they want to revert it back to 4 man. Maybe they will, maybe it's an oversight that they've not done it yet. I don't understand why they wouldn't, I don't think there would be anyone that would complain about it.

And yet they do everything possible to avoid the subject & topic for 11 months. Where the easiest thing to say right now is “we made a mistake & will be reducing them again in the near future”. 
That is why some of us keep bringing it up so that they know we are waiting. If you stay silent, then nothing gets addressed 😉

Edited October 21, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[xxSHOONYxx]

10 hours ago, Samcuu said:

For pve ur probably right

Bosses on higher difficulty requiere some changes on the combat styles, either because the fights needs it, to cheese some mechanics, aoe vs single target, or for specific roles in a fight.
But outside of some NiM bosses it makes no difference what you use

[Samcuu]

3 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Bosses on higher difficulty requiere some changes on the combat styles, either because the fights needs it, to cheese some mechanics, aoe vs single target, or for specific roles in a fight.
But outside of some NiM bosses it makes no difference what you use

Hasn't this been the case for pve consistently? Most of the time ur just parsing on a boss or whatever so aren't u just going with the abilities that are going to max out ur heals/dps? 

[xxSHOONYxx]

2 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

Hasn't this been the case for pve consistently? Most of the time ur just parsing on a boss or whatever so aren't u just going with the abilities that are going to max out ur heals/dps? 

Not entirely, for some fights like to use as an example nahut you are actually forced to change, if you play pt and do double far you need to lose hydro and spec into hard stun. But on those cases is not much as giving options to play different but forced into changing.

For tanks it happens similar too, if you want more speed, if you will get stunned or not, if you need something against a pull or push, if there are a mechanics that are interruptible and so on.

But all have a baseline that should never be changed, if you go into theorycrafers discord and look for the tree skill you can see what the baseline is, and if i remember correctly on white are the skill that you can change depending on your preferences

[Samcuu]

24 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

But all have a baseline that should never be changed

Yeah this is what I was getting at. So u deviate for a few particular fights but there aren't a bunch of different builds that can perform on the same level. 

[arunav]

I think the Op should have also mentioned fun when referencing 7.0 skill changes/trees/combat styles from the 10 years preceding 7.0. 

To me, all combat styles are substantially less fun to play, no matter what type of content you're engaged in, because of the current skill trees. 

The main reasons given pre-7.0 for the changes were arguments about a defensive 'arms race' in PVP. Well, now it seems like the team basically doesn't even care about PVP in SWTOR. So can players at least have removed and abilities-made-choices back? Is this too much work to plan out and program?

Potentially, I think there is a way to do it without abandoning the tree system in place (which would probably be too much work), as you could let players choose more than 1 ability in rows where it matters, and rearrange the choices on given levels as needed to make balance approximately fine. It's not like class balance is in a great place since 7.0 anyway.

So, can players at least have the toolkits that made the game's combat substantially more enjoyable for the 10 years prior to 7.0 back?

Edited October 21, 2023 by arunav

[Thepyrethatburns]

In order:  PVP was ever popular?  I remember when they shut down the PVP-only servers and people were screaming that "this was the end".....and nothing happened.

I mean, the mode is fine but, even during "better times", it was just the same bunch of issues except it was a different bunch of elites who would curbstomp anyone who wasn't optimized.

I'm honestly just going to stop playing for a time, I'll come back when the update drops and see what has changed, but I'm honestly going to move onto other games.

Can I have your stuff?

I think Mark Biggs, who was a pretty somewhat big name in the PVP Community

Currently at 9.94K subscribers......

and even general SWTOR Community was right. This isn't the game we fell in love with anymore. I've messaged him asking if he would ever come back,

It should be noted that he pretty much left because he got a new job.  This isn't surprising.  I remember, a couple months before and first few months after getting my current place of employment, I also left for a few months during the Dark Vs Light Event.  This included dropping my subscription as I wasn't sure that I'd come back.  Real Life changes things as evidenced by the next part.

here is what he said. 

"tbh I left the game behind and started getting into habits that are actually decent for my health, so I'm more happy where my life is now compared to where I was when I was no-lifing swtor. If they make some major changes in like 8.0 I'll poke around in it, but I just don't have the drive in me to go back to the game. On the occasions when I do log back in, I just wander around fleet for a few minutes, try to think of something to do, then log off to play something else."

So, essentially, he made changes to his life that were overall better for him than sitting in front of a computer all day such as getting a new job.  That's not really a comment on the game so much as he made RL changes that took his focus away from SWTOR.  All of us have done that and not just for SWTOR.  Sometimes we come back and sometimes we don't. 

Hell, people like Dulfy have left due to RL circumstances as opposed to SWTOR quality and Dulfy did a lot more than just a Youtube channel.

This is not to say that there aren't issues with SWTOR but I just feel like saying "Look at how this content creator has left" is a weird Appeal to Authority argument when it's pretty clear that these changes were largely inspired by the creator's life situation/perspective has changed.

------------------------

Me?  With SWTOR, I suspect that I'll be here until they turn the lights out but you never can tell.  As I said in another topic, there would be a number of positive changes that would happen to my life if SWTOR folded.  Even if it doesn't fold, I might be in a different place in a year.

As an example, I remember being at Cybercon (local convention in Fort Collins at the time.  Eventually went the way of a lot of local roleplaying conventions) listening to Michael Stackpole speak about the shrinking role-playing market and I remember thinking that I was in it for the long haul.  Not an unreasonable statement given that I had been doing tabletop for roughly ten years.

About a year later, I was well on my way out.  Sure, I did a little Federation vs Empire or Battletech for a while longer but Pen & Paper RPGs were gone from my life and tabletop strategy was something I would barely dabble in a couple years longer before stopping altogether.

-------------------------

Stuff changes.  If SWTOR doesn't do it for you, you should leave.  But, if you do leave, you shouldn't need validation from low-level content creators to convince you it's the right choice nor should you use said creators as arguments to convince other people that it's time to leave.




 

[arunav]

11 hours ago, Thepyrethatburns said:

Stuff changes.  If SWTOR doesn't do it for you, you should leave.  But, if you do leave, you shouldn't need validation from low-level content creators to convince you it's the right choice nor should you use said creators as arguments to convince other people that it's time to leave.

Your post and comments in general are true. But I don't think you need to put down Mark as a 'low-level content creator.' I don't know him at all, but found some of his videos helpful for playing classes I normally don't in PVP, or better understanding what I was going up against in arenas (which I started playing regularly again for the first time since ranked in 2.x and 3.x, in the new PVP season format). 

While there were a lot of, let's say, 'problematic' personalities in the ranked PVP community, players like Mark I think represented the folks that just liked to engage their class or classes to the best of their ability, and then test out what that meant against other players who were of a similar mentality. I like GSF for the same reason, going up against names I know are way better pilots than me, but seeing how often I can best them in various ships, and generally getting better at the game mode. 

I think people make posts like some of the ones you see in this thread because SWTOR used to be a game that was generally more involved, from leveling through the class stories, boss fights in them, all the way to the most challenging Ops and PVP modes, and some of what came between, like HM FPs and midbie PVP. It's been simplified a great deal in 7.x, including some of the last elements that appealed to players who enjoyed a challenge, and, without a lot of new content to make up for it (like, say, when 4.x introduced story chapters and made leveling easy - well, at least you had all these new story chapters to make up somewhat for what was removed), some folks in the community are left without the game they enjoyed for many years, even though it's technically still online, if that makes sense. 

I hear a good part of the community supposedly likes playing the class stories repeatedly alongside dressing up with 'space barbie'. I like both those aspects of the game, but leveling is so brain-dead easy it's just not fun to me anymore, even more so with skills that were removed/made optional in 7.0. If a new server or option was introduced to make mobs and bosses the way they used to be in 1.x-2.x, alongside giving players the toolkits/abilities they had then too, I'd likely level through all 8 class stories again. Point being, even in an area of the game that's still being catered to, there are subsets of players that find the changes to the game, especially with 7.0, frustrating. And what are forum posts, mostly, if not subscribers posting their thoughts and, often, frustrations with the game?

Unless things go flawlessly, as a regular trader on the GTN, I imagine I'll have some thoughts to share once the GTN overhaul hits live servers! 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by arunav

[TrixxieTriss]

7 minutes ago, arunav said:

If a new server or option was introduced to make mobs and bosses the way they used to be in 1.x-2.x, alongside giving players the toolkits/abilities they had then too

I would love them to launch a classic server (like wow did) that starts around 2.x. But stop when they get to 3.2-4.x. All the system changes after that, is when we started to see the game decline in my opinion. 

[Lord_Malganus]

On 10/21/2023 at 10:24 AM, Samcuu said:

Maybe u weren't paying attention because it was just a passing mention, but yes Musco said that any class balancing changes or bug fixes, things along those lines, will be in the patch notes closer to release. 

It was crystal clear everything was left very vague on purpose. We can say goodbye to any disclosure and the no communication (silence) will continue.

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Lord_Malganus

[SentinalMasterWW]

I've un-Subbed from this game.

There is just no meat in it anymore. 

The Dev's have taken SWTOR's identity and thrown it out the window. 

The only fun people have is posting Space Barbie thats it, or going on Fleet and doing /e For hours. 

Sure the Original 8 class stories are great, but when thats the only great content, its get kind of stale repeating it over and over again. 

What is the endgame for SWTOR? Run MM Flashpoints, The Same flashpoints I grinded over and over again to level up? 

Play PVP? 

You mean a sad broken mode that's balance gets thrown out the window when a 6 man Premade joins, Bioware thinks thats okay and sees no problem. 

Or how about the current Jug or Sorc Class Stacking? 

SWTOR had some of the best PVP Systems but the Dev's ruined it. 

What is the mountain for me to climb in SWTOR? Gearing? Its not that hard to get to max. 

Operations? Whats my reward, the same amount of stuff I'd get from a MM flashpoint? 

I've gone back to ESO and made a new toon, and I can tell you I had more fun in those 2-3 hours than I did recently playing SWTOR, ESO feels like an actual MMO with Content, and I have even gotten to endgame yet. 

I have no sway and me and un-subbing doesn't mean anything, however the trend of players that are leaving should matter. 

7.0 has arguably been the worst expansion for SWTOR. It removed Content, made everything grind based to give the illusion of content. Ruined endgame PVP & PVE. 

I honestly had a tiny amount of hope that when Broadsword took over things might change a bit for the better without Bioware's influence, but its clear they just want to have the game remain as is. 

SWTOR could of had a Battlefront 2 moment, where they turn the game around massively and draw in old and new players in. 

Levelling used to be fun, than with the pruning it feels like I'm playing a Diet version of my spec. 

Overall, if they want players to come back and Re-Sub, undo everything and just revert back to 6.0. 

[arunav]

29 minutes ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Overall, if they want players to come back and Re-Sub, undo everything and just revert back to 6.0.

Leave in weapons in Outfitter. And the new daily areas (both Mannan and Ruhnuk were put together well). And whatever CM additions in 7.x. Otherwise, yeah, I really wish the game had stayed in 6.x. 

Oh, and the log-in rewards/CM advertisement becoming part of the actual UI, with the ability to edit what's in the bar. That was a positive change. Though, I'd happily go with the old one if it meant the character sheet, character preview window, and inventory would revert to pre-7.0 versions. Or if players were at least given an option on which UI they'd like to use. 

Maybe someone disagrees, but I can't fathom how anyone thinks the 7.x character sheet or preview window is better. Players still can't even zoom in properly when previewing an armor set or component of one, except towards the waist. Given how much of the game revolves around cosmetics, shouldn't that at least be fixed? 

One day, I'd really like to know what actually happened at BioWare leading into 7.0. 

[Whykara]

52 minutes ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Overall, if they want players to come back and Re-Sub, undo everything and just revert back to 6.0. 

Except the gearing, the new daily areas, shared tagging, the separation of origin story and combat style, the weapons outfitter, the R4 operation, the removal of set boni, the reduced inflation, the new accessibility options and probably some more I'm leaving out. 7.0 launch was a disaster and 7.x as a whole is a mixed bag, but in my opinion it has done more good than bad at that point. 

[BulbulusTheGreat]

1 hour ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

I've un-Subbed from this game.

There is just no meat in it anymore. 

The Dev's have taken SWTOR's identity and thrown it out the window. 

The only fun people have is posting Space Barbie thats it, or going on Fleet and doing /e For hours. 

Sure the Original 8 class stories are great, but when thats the only great content, its get kind of stale repeating it over and over again. 

Overall, if they want players to come back and Re-Sub, undo everything and just revert back to 6.0. 

sorry but this part is an opinion rather than a fact, your suggestion for them to "fix" the game is to revert everything back to class stories and deprave all of us of countless content we've done? you're not fixing anything you just want them to magically remove years of content becuse you don't like it, news flash some of us do, im a very pve focued player and i loved some DLC's like KOTFE, liked them more than some class stories (KOTFE over consular for example), so how on earth would they fix anything by removing this fun from my life? if you don't like them thats perfectly fine don't get me wrong but i don't get why you think game is bad and something will be fixed if they remove years of work regarding content? the main current issue isn't content, its lack of thereof, we'd be blessed if they made a DLC the size of KOTFE now instead we get 4 hour planet every few months, idk what players you claim will come back if they did this but what it would cause for me is quite opposite, i'd get angry and leave.

 

also just becuse you're not having fun again doesn't mean that others aren't, when current GS dropped i remember at around midnight euro time on darth malgus DK was FULL of people at midnight so full that doing GS missions was pain in the ass and bugged out for me once becuse of how many people did it at same time, feast event? theres always people there, theres constantly WB calls for feast event bosses so to say that nobody is having fun anymore is false, could it be better? sure, is all fun lost? No and again you wanting them to revert everything back just becuse you're not having fun is rather silly.

Edited October 23, 2023 by BulbulusTheGreat

[TrixxieTriss]

44 minutes ago, Whykara said:

Except the gearing

The gearing system is one of the worst since the game launched. Only the 1.x gearing system was worse. 
Even though the 6.x gearing system had issues & there were way to many stat variations of each item (19 of each 🤦‍♀️), it was still a way better gearing system than 7.x will ever be.

[SentinalMasterWW]

26 minutes ago, BulbulusTheGreat said:

revert everything back to class stories and deprave all of us of countless content we've done? you're not fixing anything you just want them to magically remove years of content becuse you don't like it, news flash some of us do, im a very pve focued player and i loved some DLC's like KOTFE, liked them more than some class stories (KOTFE over consular for example), so how on earth would they fix anything by removing this fun from my life? if you don't like them thats perfectly fine don't get me wrong but i don't get why you think game is bad and something will be fixed if they remove years of work regarding content? the main current issue isn't content, its lack of thereof, we'd be blessed if they made a DLC the size of KOTFE now instead we get 4 hour planet every few months, idk what players you claim will come back if they did this but what it would cause for me is quite opposite, i'd get angry and leave.

Let me Clarify, by Revert I mean Revert to the 6.0 Systems in place.

Things like Combat Styles need to go back to the drawing board, or be massively reworked .

The newer story, I'm sorry but its so forgetable and the replayablility isnt there, one of the biggest issues with KOTFE & KOTET that while I enjoy them, they massively backed themselves into a corner as it took away class identity. 

You are not Havoc Squad Commander, you are the Commander 

You are not Grand Champion of the Great hunt, you are the commander. 

KOTFE & KOTET feels like they were more meant so for the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior classes, everyone else is just out of place and trying to figure out whats going on. 

5 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

The gearing system is one of the worst since the game launched. Only the 1.x gearing system was worse. 
Even though the 6.x gearing system had issues & there were way to many stat variations of each item (19 of each 🤦‍♀️), it was still a way better gearing system than 7.x will ever be

6.0 was Basic and Simple, get your Legendary Set Pieces for your spec, get your tactical, and if need be fine tune your Amplifiers to how you want. 7.0, said how can we make this more convulated than before. 

 

53 minutes ago, Whykara said:

Except the gearing, the new daily areas, shared tagging, the separation of origin story and combat style, the weapons outfitter, the R4 operation, the removal of set boni, the reduced inflation, the new accessibility options and probably some more I'm leaving out. 7.0 launch was a disaster and 7.x as a whole is a mixed bag, but in my opinion it has done more good than bad at that point. 

 

while the newer additions, like Weapon outfiter, and things like that are good, I'd aruge against CS, its massively terrible and needs to go back to the drawing board. Honestly all they needed to do for CS, was just allow us to swap specs, and pick whatever CS for classes we wanted. The Pruning, and horrible Tree they designed were not needed. 

1 hour ago, arunav said:

Maybe someone disagrees, but I can't fathom how anyone thinks the 7.x character sheet or preview window is better. Players still can't even zoom in properly when previewing an armor set or component of one, except towards the waist. Given how much of the game revolves around cosmetics, shouldn't that at least be fixed? 

The whole UI thing is broken, everytime they touch it, they break it even more. 

1 hour ago, arunav said:

One day, I'd really like to know what actually happened at BioWare leading into 7.0. 

I could write a whole thesis on explaining why 7.0 was terrible, in short, Rushed, understaffed, and refusal to listen to the community. 

[xxSHOONYxx]

18 minutes ago, BulbulusTheGreat said:

im a very pve focued player and i loved some DLC's like KOTFE

A very pve focused player and loves KOTFE?
The same KOTFE that as "pve" did not add a new operation and the player base went 3 years without a new operation (if you count tyth release as a full operation)? that did star fortress and uprisings that are so "fun" that barely no one does?