Stop ripping me off!

[krackcommando]

6 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Helping someone to clear content and taking money to corpse carry them for cheevos and iems are two different things. You know that, but you've got nothing else to argue with, so you're just deliberately twisting the truth here to make it fit your narrative. 

 

If you are surrounded by people who cheat and break ToS "all the time" in "every guild" you've been in, it tells more about you and your values than the majority of the playerbase. 

kek. now who's putting words in my mouth. we've established I was referring to paying as "trade in kind" with in-game items. this does not break TOS.

as for "helping a friend clear content," there's a difference between helping and carrying. but there's no difference between someone getting an achievement that they didn't actually earn or deserve. the only real difference is that you're "paying" for the carry with different currency (such as guild membership that contributes to conquest, friendship IRL [like the GM's GF?], guy does all the crafting for the guild so gets a carry to an OPs cheevo or get free run through MM weeklies, etc.).

and I'm arguing what I've always been arguing, that paid (with in-game items/currency) is a regular occurance throughout this (dead) and other (much more active) raiding end-games. additionally, this idea that carrying (not helping - carrying) a friend or a guildy is fundamentally different from doing it for in-game "trade" is an exercise in mental gymnastics only. it reminds me of the european view of sex to that of the prudish american view. a guy in france loses feeling in his lower half during a traffic accident, and he's awarded $$$ to pay for sex. america: nooo! you can't do that. it's a sin! but lying your way between someone's legs is fair play. 😄

[OlBuzzard]

8 hours ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

Yeah, that stuff is terrible. And you're totally right, it just prey's on human weakness. Gambling can destroy peoples lives when it gets out of hand and it can be hard for the individual to realize when they've actually hit that state.

"One more hand and I can make back all my loses." Than they say it again, and again, and again. All these hypercrates, it preys on the same weakness, if less damaging. But, I'm sure a lot of people have spent a lot more money on them than they should have.

I mean, you can spend days doing gathering missions, crafting things and selling them and deco-hunting for sales and the time that's needed to invest in it, or you can buy a few hypecrates and making 10x the amount in 10 minutes you would make from the aforementioned activities.

Or, you can just spend 5 or 10 bucks and buy a few billion from credit sellers. You can reason that in your mind as a big time saver and I guess that's why a lot of people do it.

These video games that have P2W and all the RNG packs, they all feed into the same idea and that's preying on human weakness in the name of money.

Ultimately though, it's the responsibility of each individual to try and muster the will to not give into it. Some people might wanna blame the companies that engage in that sort of marketing, but we can't rule out the responsibility of the individuals to engage themselves in those sorts of schemes either.

Closer!  So much of todays world (even the sport of fishing) is tied into "convenience".  Someone did a report on P2W in some popular games (including games like STO) where a player could easily just fork over cash and instantly become as well geared as possible in game.  IMO that's just wrong!

BTW..  @xxSHOONYxx  ... for whatever it's worth the industry needs to take the initiative to demonstrate as much maturity and restraint as the individuals playing their games.  I believe that would be a fair assessment.

To better illustrate:  One of the biggest issues facing the sport of fishing right now is the excessive use of electronics in fish locations.  Back in the old days you were lucky if you had what was commonly known as a "flasher" or depth finder.  It was as much a safety thing as it was locating the possibility of fish movement.  But for the most part it was up to the fisherman's understanding of the sport (habits ... etc) of the LMB to be good at catching them.  Today some boats (even smaller rigs) have as many as 3 each 12" computer screens with both forward imaging and 3-D Live scopes attached.  There is literally no place a fish can hide.  ADD to that multiple large groups of bass tournaments on any given weekend (even in the summer) ... and fish mortality goes up ...WAY up.

Is there anything wrong with electronics?  In moderation ... probably not! BUT with 3 each 12" screens ??  seriously (BTW... it should be noted that with all of that they still can't get HBO either!) 🤦‍♂️  Overkill anyone?  Our resources can only take so much.  It should also be noted that it's not the size of the boat on the lake ... it's the overindulgence of an industry hell bent on making cash hand over fist for the "toys" on that boat.

My point is that anything can be made to be abusive!  The solution will take initiative from both the game participants AND the industry at large in order to get things under control again.  Someone has to take point on the matter.

I hope this makes sense.

[OlBuzzard]

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

kek. now who's putting words in my mouth. we've established I was referring to paying as "trade in kind" with in-game items. this does not break TOS.

as for "helping a friend clear content," there's a difference between helping and carrying. but there's no difference between someone getting an achievement that they didn't actually earn or deserve. the only real difference is that you're "paying" for the carry with different currency (such as guild membership that contributes to conquest, friendship IRL [like the GM's GF?], guy does all the crafting for the guild so gets a carry to an OPs cheevo or get free run through MM weeklies, etc.).

and I'm arguing what I've always been arguing, that paid (with in-game items/currency) is a regular occurance throughout this (dead) and other (much more active) raiding end-games. additionally, this idea that carrying (not helping - carrying) a friend or a guildy is fundamentally different from doing it for in-game "trade" is an exercise in mental gymnastics only. it reminds me of the european view of sex to that of the prudish american view. a guy in france loses feeling in his lower half during a traffic accident, and he's awarded $$$ to pay for sex. america: nooo! you can't do that. it's a sin! but lying your way between someone's legs is fair play. 😄

Good grief ..

While it is true that it is impossible to "legislate" (for lack of a better term) what is acceptable behavior in game ... IMO this DOES do one thing for a certainty.  It has lowered my personal reflections/expectations of what the character of on-line games (gaming in general) had devolved into.

What a mess!  

[DeannaVoyager]

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

 

but there's no difference between someone getting an achievement that they didn't actually earn or deserve. 

 

Yes there is. It's been explained to you in this thread earlier by others already. Helping someone is 100% different from buying a run from sales group, where the money goes to 3rd party and not to the game developers. That hurts everyone.

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

and I'm arguing what I've always been arguing, that paid (with in-game items/currency) is a regular occurance throughout this (dead) and other (much more active) raiding end-games.

 

And that's where you're wrong. Being able to buy achievements and nim mounts/titles, when you buy them from a 3rd party, is unhealthy for the game. It's not a regular occurence and it shouldn't be. It's cheating and as others have said, it devalues legit achievements. On top of that the 3rd party groups who profit from this are largely  responsible for the invasion of gold sellers and as long as sale runs are allowed to exist, we are not getting rid of them either.  Because of them, we are now facing these new taxes (some of them totally insane) and limitations in gifting, which hurt the innocent people more. 

1 hour ago, OlBuzzard said:

My point is that anything can be made to be abusive!  The solution will take initiative from both the game participants AND the industry at large in order to get things under control again.  Someone has to take point on the matter.

I hope this makes sense.

It does, a lot of sense. 

I don't fish myself and haven't even thought about how it might changed with technology, but now that you described it, doesn't sound good at all. I always thought the idea of fishing is in the thrill of the hunt, so to speak. What's the point if we can just snap our fingers and the fish jumps on a frying pan without any effort? 

 

[OlBuzzard]

20 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Yes there is. It's been explained to you in this thread earlier by others already. Helping someone is 100% different from buying a run from sales group, where the money goes to 3rd party and not to the game developers. That hurts everyone.

 

And that's where you're wrong. Being able to buy achievements and nim mounts/titles, when you buy them from a 3rd party, is unhealthy for the game. It's not a regular occurence and it shouldn't be. It's cheating and as others have said, it devalues legit achievements. On top of that the 3rd party groups who profit from this are largely  responsible for the invasion of gold sellers and as long as sale runs are allowed to exist, we are not getting rid of them either.  Because of them, we are now facing these new taxes (some of them totally insane) and limitations in gifting, which hurt the innocent people more. 

[/snip]

 

Excellent summation on buying / selling / trading for "runs" through different parts of the game.  Unless there is something that I missed (and I don't think I have) ... that is NOT how the game was intended to be played.  That is bound to have an adverse affect on the rewards for completing whatever areas that affects  leaving those who refuse to take such a course of action in order to complete said parts of the game in a most precarious situation. 

[/two thumbs up for response]

EDIT ... for some strange reason I'm already out of reaction things ... AGAIN!  (that is so annoying)

Edited July 14, 2023 by OlBuzzard

[krackcommando]

4 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

And that's where you're wrong. Being able to buy achievements and nim mounts/titles, when you buy them from a 3rd party, is unhealthy for the game. It's not a regular occurence and it shouldn't be. It's cheating and as others have said, it devalues legit achievements. On top of that the 3rd party groups who profit from this are largely  responsible for the invasion of gold sellers and as long as sale runs are allowed to exist, we are not getting rid of them either.  Because of them, we are now facing these new taxes (some of them totally insane) and limitations in gifting, which hurt the innocent people more. 

what do you mean by 3rd party? the person who get's paid in-game items or an actual 3rd party website accepting real world currency? the latter is a different issue. it violates tos. it has no place in the game. getting in-game bling for carrying others? fair game. you don't like it b/c it devalues your earned achievement. yeah. I get that too. such is life. that's why timeliness matters like 'world first' etc. but this game, of all games, for a person to get on his high horse and be offended about ppl "buying" achievements (with in-game bling) is patently absurd since the M. O. of this game is to do just that (/me looks at the seasonal rewards recycled from past season achievement tiers in pvp). this game is all about rewarding participation over achievement. hence the dearth of new raiding content and raiding community.

[Darev]

I don't pay attention to NIM stuff all that much, but the last time I remember people paying to be "carried" it was to get the cool looking winged jetpack...

That was years ago.

 

So when you say it's a "regular occurence" how many times a week do you mean by that?

10 groups a day each server?

10 groups a week each server?

10 groups a month.....to me that's a big "who cares"

 

I honestly didn't know that people were doing it for acheivements...but I hardly pay attention to those either.  I play on multiple servers and the acheivements I have are different on each server.   Just because I don't have something on SS, doesn't mean I haven't already done it, I've just (possibly) done it on SF.

 

But I'm going back to the "who cares?" part.

Unless you're treating acheivements as a competition....why worry about it?

 

Also, that's not even what the OP was talking about, right?

[SteveTheCynic]

5 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

what do you mean by 3rd party? the person who get's paid in-game items or an actual 3rd party website accepting real world currency?

I read @DeannaVoyager's post as implying that there are three parties involved in this particular situation:

• 1st party = the player who wants the cheevo
• 2nd party = the developer (whichever developer is relevant for the game) providing the possibility of the cheevo
• 3rd party = the other player(s) who help the 1st party get the cheevo

Note that there's no mention in the above of how the carry transaction is conducted, whether it's done by an external (4th party) website or by in-game negotiation of a price.  And the currency paid for the price doesn't matter either, in-game materials or RMT.

[OlBuzzard]

1 minute ago, SteveTheCynic said:

I read @DeannaVoyager's post as implying that there are three parties involved in this particular situation:

• 1st party = the player who wants the cheevo
• 2nd party = the developer (whichever developer is relevant for the game) providing the possibility of the cheevo
• 3rd party = the other player(s) who help the 1st party get the cheevo

Note that there's no mention in the above of how the carry transaction is conducted, whether it's done by an external (4th party) website or by in-game negotiation of a price.  And the currency paid for the price doesn't matter either, in-game materials or RMT.

hmmm  ... scratches head!  I think I understand where you are going with this!  Makes sense!  The simple fact is that this is one aspect of the game that can't be regulated or stopped.  IMO it is a matter of personal choices and what some see as taking away from the spirit of the game.  IMO it also belittles those who have taken the time to build a game with certain expectations / goals in mind.  

Who does it hurt?  Initially some would look at the overall affect of the game / content and it's intended design purposes.  But strangely enough .. paid / selling for completing parts of the game... IMO that hurts the people who are more directly involved in the transactions (just not in the way they are probably thinking).  To that point most could probably care less.  

Unfortunately there's little that my posts are going to do to impact or change this situation (when it gets right down to it).  That doesn't mean I'm going to sit on my hands and not do anything either!

😉

[xxSHOONYxx]

10 hours ago, Bigfallenstar said:

Lootboxes aren't the problem. It's the people who don't have any discipline who are the problem.

Even if lootboxes were ok, the issue is that those monetization are not implemented after the game is done, they are done before the game is done and they make the game boring/slow/a drag or even worse so people feel the need of buying them, and once they buy it they are more likely to buy other things. 
Lootboxes or any extra monetization make any game worse because of it. They put the emphasis first on how to monetize the game, not on the game itself. 

[JakRoanin]

True, but still, it's important to take personal responsibility into account here. 

[xxSHOONYxx]

3 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

The solution will take initiative from both the game participants AND the industry at large in order to get things under control again.  Someone has to take point on the matter.

A company only cares about profits though, you hear all the time especially with food industry how owners/management don't allow their family to consume what their company produces. Or even the cases of medicine how some people buy patents to then sell the medicine at outrageous prices profiteering or the price of some things like insulin in America. Greed and money is all that companies care about.

Some governments are already starting to make laws against loot boxes and game monetization, but those things will take several years to take traction because 99% of the government are 60/70/80 year old people that have 0 idea about technology and don't know what game companies are doing and how they are exploiting their users. And until their are made, game companies will do whatever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSyUgTCIkA0&ab_channel=YongYea

if you are interested a bit on the subject on how entities are starting to push against it and how scummy their defenses are. The clip of ea with uk parliment part starts at 1:10 if don feel like watching the whole thing

And then more than likely when younger people get into government game companies will be sued and need to pay up billions like the tobacco companies did in their time for targeting and abusing young people, misleading them and using addiction to control them.

Edited July 14, 2023 by xxSHOONYxx

[OlBuzzard]

19 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

A company only cares about profits though, you hear all the time especially with food industry how owners/management don't allow their family to consume what their company produces. Or even the cases of medicine how some people buy patents to then sell the medicine at outrageous prices profiteering or the price of some things like insulin in America. Greed and money is all that companies care about.

Some governments are already starting to make laws against loot boxes and game monetization, but those things will take several years to take traction because 99% of the government are 60/70/80 year old people that have 0 idea about technology and don't know what game companies are doing and how they are exploiting their users. And until their are made, game companies will do whatever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSyUgTCIkA0&ab_channel=YongYea

if you are interested a bit on the subject on how entities are starting to push against it and how scummy their defenses are. The clip of ea with uk parliment part starts at 1:10 if don feel like watching the whole thing

And then more than likely when younger people get into government game companies will be sued and need to pay up billions like the tobacco companies did in their time for targeting and abusing young people, misleading them and using addiction to control them.

Trust me .. I get it!  I'm a retired purchasing director.  My former bosses (both on the board of directors of the company) EXPECTED me to lie like a rug on a floor when the occasion called for it in order to get that cheapest price (a common practice I might add).  

I refused to conduct business as they expected me to!  IMO ... It's MY NAME that's at stake.  (Not someone else).  

BTW... I rather suspect that there are some of those 60 and 70 year old people who might know a tad more than you might be giving them credit for.  AND to me ... that makes them a bit more accountable.  That old adage of plausible deniability (in order to avoid accountability) just doesn't fly (Not to me at least).

And yes ... greed is what is driving this entire matter.  BUT that door swing both ways:  to the developers and the consumers.  Greed for gear / titles / quick fix / quick everything.  The fast food industry has made multiplied BILLIONS on the idea of convenience and getting things done NOW!

As for the game industry ...IMO one of the faults that would unquestionably be their fault:  creating a problem ... THEN offering a solution that can be purchased!  Most of the CM stuff does not fall under that category.

Any how ... I appreciate the fact that you still presenting your information / discussion in a civil fashion!  TYVM!

Edited July 14, 2023 by OlBuzzard
clarification

[JakRoanin]

Again I'm not saying that these business practices are Right or Good. But for example, with the food my family tries to raise pork and chicken and grow a lot of veg. We make choices. That's all any of us can do.

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, Darev said:

So when you say it's a "regular occurence" how many times a week do you mean by that?

10 groups a day each server?

10 groups a week each server?

10 groups a month.....to me that's a big "who cares"

if you're referring to me when I said it happens all the time, I meant it's part and parcel with any game of this sort. it happens all the time everywhere (as in at every level).

it happens less in swtor raids currently because THERE'S NO NEW CONTENT. so yeah, wings are the only thing I can even think of as far as raids that I would even think of paying for...except personally, I don't like them. I prefer speeders. I like the look of a lot of larger mounts, but I don't buy/grind them b/c I don't like the way they distort my pov while riding them. I suppose for the peacocks and space barbies, however, that those things are appealing. ok. w/e. so they pay a carry grp some hypercrates for it. so what?

I was part of a carry run for SNV years ago just b/c I happened to be on when the RL was looking to put it together, and those runs were fairly regular (just paid in credits iirc). there's always some shmuck or space barbie with too much money and not enough skill/time/friends/guildies. you have ppl paying for x-runs through HS to level. not in this game b/c the population is so low and there is no more rated, but trading players credits, craftables, or rare tradeable items for carrying them to higher pvp ratings.

and it is a big fat "who cares that this happens?" BW redesigned this game around the CM which basically invites players to spend real money on in-game bling that they then use to trade for in-game services like HM OPs bosses, speed leveling, MM FPs, etc. BW sells more hypercrates for it all. well...BS/EA now I guess. but you get the gist.

iunno.

Edited July 14, 2023 by krackcommando

[DeannaVoyager]

2 hours ago, krackcommando said:

what do you mean by 3rd party? the person who get's paid in-game items or an actual 3rd party website accepting real world currency? the latter is a different issue. it violates tos. it has no place in the game. getting in-game bling for carrying others? fair game. you don't like it b/c it devalues your earned achievement. yeah. I get that too. such is life. that's why timeliness matters like 'world first' etc. but this game, of all games, for a person to get on his high horse and be offended about ppl "buying" achievements (with in-game bling) is patently absurd since the M. O. of this game is to do just that (/me looks at the seasonal rewards recycled from past season achievement tiers in pvp). this game is all about rewarding participation over achievement. hence the dearth of new raiding content and raiding community.

You seem to be the "offended" party here on a high horse. Your moral compass is broken and you are in a minority here defending sale runs and downplaying the effect it has on this game, but that's your problem. Do not project your emotions on me. 

[xxSHOONYxx]

21 minutes ago, OlBuzzard said:

I rather suspect that there are some of those 60 and 70 year old people who might know a tad more than you might be giving them credit for.  AND to me ... that makes them a bit more accountable.  That old adage of plausible deniability (in order to avoid accountability) just doesn't fly (Not to me at least).

I can't know for sure since i don't know them personally, i speak from personal experience with the people at that age bracket usually have little to no knowledge. Especially people like my grandfather that straight out refused to use a cellphone because he lived his whole life without it so doesn't need it.
Maybe is both, maybe they are paid under the table to not talk about it, or straight out don't know what gaming is or what is happening on it. How politicians love to say that he cause of violence is because of gaming, either trying to deflect culpability or straight out have no idea about games. 
And i guess also me drawing to conclusion because people looking for those kind of laws or that already passed are usually younger. That i know of Netherlands and Belgium already have lootboxes laws, and hawaii is/was trying to pass laws about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_akwfRuL4os&ab_channel=ChrisLee - Hawaii
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_akwfRuL4os&ab_channel=ChrisLee - Dutch
https://www.eurogamer.net/now-belgium-declares-loot-boxes-gambling-and-therefore-illegal - Belgium (which is not being enforced apparently)
 

37 minutes ago, OlBuzzard said:

Most of the CM stuff does not fall under that category.

Hypercrates fall under it, and the rest of the items is a weird place imo. Is it gambling? no because you buy what you want, but take the CM items off and how would your character look? Like a potato with a lightsaber because every armor and weapon outside of the CM is godawful, forcing people the need to spend in order to look okay/good/great. If there were very cool weapons and armors outside of the CM it would be more consumer friendly, the CM being an option to look good but now is a requirement to look good and very consumer unfriendly (and giving the game less life if putting those items under content and grind). There are very few exceptions to this that are nim mounts, which is why some people want them so bad.

 

52 minutes ago, OlBuzzard said:

I appreciate the fact that you still presenting your information / discussion in a civil fashion!  TYVM!

Of course, no one has the same views. Is always a learning experience when someone has a different view than yourself
 

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

5 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

Someone did a report on P2W in some popular games (including games like STO) where a player could easily just fork over cash and instantly become as well geared as possible in game.  IMO that's just wrong!

Yeah, that's total BS.  I think that's wrong too. Totally. Who the hell would want to buy BIS gear for real life money rather than earn by playing the game? That makes no sense to my POV. But, one thing about people, people do tend to like to take the road of least resistance, and for those players who feel they don't have the necessary skills to do the content necessary to earn the BIS gear, to them that might seem like the only option available to them to get it.

I'm surprised too. I played STO for like 2 or 3 years, and it wasn't like that. There were of course RNG boxes (which admittedly I bought quite a few of because I really wanted the Jem Hadar Attack ship for my Federation Klingon Tactical officer. Which I never got!!)

Sometimes I consider going back to play STO a bit, because I did kinda like it, but that's definitely a strike against that idea. I had alot of fun even doing ground combat because I got to use a Bat'leth. I own one in real life. https://img1.cgtrader.com/items/2018952/feb27f3a50/large/klingon-bat-leth-the-sword-of-kahless-3d-model-obj-mtl-fbx-blend.jpg

Heghlu’meH QaQ jajvam!!!  (Today is a good day to die)

Edited July 14, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

5 hours ago, krackcommando said:

it reminds me of the european view of sex to that of the prudish american view. a guy in france loses feeling in his lower half during a traffic accident, and he's awarded $$$ to pay for sex. america: nooo! you can't do that. it's a sin!

What the hell is wrong with that??!?!?

I'm an American and I'm a big fan of Asian massage parlors. (And the non-Asian ones too.)

[JakRoanin]

But Hypercrates don't give anyone things that make them more powerful right? Everything on the CM is cosmetic, it gives nobody an unfair advantage in stats or a tactical advantage correct?

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

1 minute ago, JakRoanin said:

But Hypercrates don't give anyone things that make them more powerful right? Everything on the CM is cosmetic, it gives nobody an unfair advantage in stats or a tactical advantage correct?

Touche', Good point. 👍👍

(Hope I spelled that right, Steve.)

Edited July 14, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[OlBuzzard]

1 hour ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

I can't know for sure since i don't know them personally, i speak from personal experience with the people at that age bracket usually have little to no knowledge. Especially people like my grandfather that straight out refused to use a cellphone because he lived his whole life without it so doesn't need it.
Maybe is both, maybe they are paid under the table to not talk about it, or straight out don't know what gaming is or what is happening on it. How politicians love to say that he cause of violence is because of gaming, either trying to deflect culpability or straight out have no idea about games. 
And i guess also me drawing to conclusion because people looking for those kind of laws or that already passed are usually younger. That i know of Netherlands and Belgium already have lootboxes laws, and hawaii is/was trying to pass laws about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_akwfRuL4os&ab_channel=ChrisLee - Hawaii
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_akwfRuL4os&ab_channel=ChrisLee - Dutch
https://www.eurogamer.net/now-belgium-declares-loot-boxes-gambling-and-therefore-illegal - Belgium (which is not being enforced apparently)
 

Hypercrates fall under it, and the rest of the items is a weird place imo. Is it gambling? no because you buy what you want, but take the CM items off and how would your character look? Like a potato with a lightsaber because every armor and weapon outside of the CM is godawful, forcing people the need to spend in order to look okay/good/great. If there were very cool weapons and armors outside of the CM it would be more consumer friendly, the CM being an option to look good but now is a requirement to look good and very consumer unfriendly (and giving the game less life if putting those items under content and grind). There are very few exceptions to this that are nim mounts, which is why some people want them so bad.

 

Of course, no one has the same views. Is always a learning experience when someone has a different view than yourself
 

Yeah .. the CM stuff is pretty good!  It's pretty obvious about the game owners attitude when the CM is the only place you can get consistently good looking stuff (gear and weapons).  BTW.. it's not that way on WoW.  They might sell some stuff but I can tell you that my warrior has only stuff that is a drop.  Most of it in hard areas to get to.  BUT .. still.  (My favorite two handed as for example is a Plundered Molten Reaper AKA: Cresent of Living Magma).  That is a DROP !  It's not on any convenient market for sale.

ALSO:  You BET .. the Hypercrates are my one pet peeve with the CM.  IMO those are nothing more than gambling items.  Something??  For how many credits??  It's a total crap-shoot as to what you can expect to get!  Everything else is simply optional and not needed to play the game!  Plus, not to mention, that subscribers are given a few CC a month.  Heck I'm sitting on top of over 14K right now in CC.  All of them were given to me for just sticking around playing the game.  (yes ... a handful came from GS).

We're starting to get slightly OT.  

BTW..  that age thing.  (don't take this the wrong way) ...  But a couple years before my dad passed away he needed some drywall work done in the house.  A fellow came by .. gave him his card.  Dad said "I'll think it over".  That evening dad gets on the internet to check out his credentials.  They were shaky at best.  When the gentleman returned my dad asked him two questions based on the research that he'd done.  The fellow left without answering!  Dad was 88 at the time (4 years ago ... dad passed at age 92).  Moral of the story:  don't assume (particularly with people in places of governmental responsibility).  Frankly, I personally hold them to a higher standard and accountability!  

When examined in light of OP .. it all comes down to choices that people make.  I don't think it will ever be possible to regulate how players are able to complete missions / quests.  It's unfortunate that this subject even has to be discussed (when it gets down to it).

I can appreciate how frustrating it is for those who simply want to play the game and have fun without the realization that there are (and always will be) those that are looking for shortcuts / cheats / exploits and other assorted means of getting stuff in ways that were not necessarily intended to be a part of a game.  IMO that includes sales / runs / selling or buying.  

I wish I had a better answer for all of this ... but frankly I don't.

[Darev]

2 hours ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

Yeah, that's total BS.  I think that's wrong too. Totally. Who the hell would want to buy BIS gear for real life money rather than earn by playing the game? That makes no sense to my POV. But, one thing about people, people do tend to like to take the road of least resistance, and for those players who feel they don't have the necessary skills to do the content necessary to earn the BIS gear, to them that might seem like the only option available to them to get it.

I'm surprised too. I played STO for like 2 or 3 years, and it wasn't like that. There were of course RNG boxes (which admittedly I bought quite a few of because I really wanted the Jem Hadar Attack ship for my Federation Klingon Tactical officer. Which I never got!!)

Sometimes I consider going back to play STO a bit, because I did kinda like it, but that's definitely a strike against that idea. I had alot of fun even doing ground combat because I got to use a Bat'leth. I own one in real life. https://img1.cgtrader.com/items/2018952/feb27f3a50/large/klingon-bat-leth-the-sword-of-kahless-3d-model-obj-mtl-fbx-blend.jpg

Heghlu’meH QaQ jajvam!!!  (Today is a good day to die)

I know someone like this.  Playing world of tanks he'll have no problem forking over his RL CC# to buy "gold rounds" for his tanks instead of "wasting time" grinding it out.  "I'm going to grind it out eventually, why not pay the $50, or whatever, to get it now?"   I don't know that there's anything really equivalent to that here in SWTOR, but the basic idea is "my time is worth more than what it costs to do it" is definitely there.

and while this particular person isn't "rich" in RL, there are "RICH" people who hire people to do stuff we take for granted and they rationalize it as they "make more money" doing something else in the time it takes to pay someone else to do it.

[SteveTheCynic]

2 hours ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

Touche', Good point. 👍👍

(Hope I spelled that right, Steve.)

It's often spelled just "Touche" in English, but the proper French spelling is "Touché" with thé acuté accént on thé é.

[SteveTheCynic]

5 hours ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Even if lootboxes were ok, the issue is that those monetization are not implemented after the game is done, they are done before the game is done and they make the game boring/slow/a drag or even worse so people feel the need of buying them, and once they buy it they are more likely to buy other things. 
Lootboxes or any extra monetization make any game worse because of it. They put the emphasis first on how to monetize the game, not on the game itself. 

SWTOR history: The Cartel Market didn't exist *at*all* (not even for just cosmetic direct-buy gear) when SWTOR launched, so it's not inherently true that monetisations are done before the game is done (in the sense meaning "finished"(1)).

(1) Yes, I know, an MMORPG is never truly finished.  I meant the initial-release version.