Stop ripping me off!

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

"A hypercrate for each player in the OPs to carry me through NiM OP"? ok. this game thrives on that kinda crap (the CM). This happens all the time in raiding. it's not some deeply troubling or horrific thing.

No, it didn't happen all the time in raiding, it was not common place in any way, shape, or form. And I play on Star Forge, and even now I don't ever see people talking about sales runs, either asking or offering. And that's not because people are never doing it, they are, but, even the people that do it know how most people feel about that practice. That it's frowned upon. So, the claims you are making, that's just you saying some stupid crap that you can't back up.

"This happens all the time in raiding."

You're on every server, in every raid? You're on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for the last 11 years? You know every raid team that's ever existed in the game? You know every raider? You've asked around about how raiders feel about this?

People who do do sales runs to get achievements, they don't going around telling people that they got those achievements because they paid for sales runs to get them, they lie about how they got them. Wanna take a guess why they lie about that?

I would go one step further and hazard as guess if you did take a poll, 85% of raiders would say that's lame as hell. Because it is lame as hell.

Now listen, you wanna do that, go for it. But stop trying to paint it as some common place thing that every raider engages in some form, or that it's a respectable practice. If it was, you wouldn't have so many people disagreeing with you. It's cheating, plain and simple, and that's what you're trying to defend. Cheating. It's the win-trading of PVE.

But, I agree with you, it's not some troubling or horrific thing. It's a friggen video game. It's just lame.

 

 

[krackcommando]

29 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

You're on every server, in every raid? You're on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for the last 11 years? You know every raid team that's ever existed in the game? You know every raider? You've asked around about how raiders feel about this?

no. I've been playing this and other similar raid-based mmorpgs for 20 years. this is how it happens.

the fact of the matter is that swtor is basically a dead game for any sort of high end gaming (raiding, fps/dungeons, pvp). the majority of guilds run around like moths to the flame face rolling through SM content. they do "progression" on raids that are literally 5+ years old.

I was in a big progression raiding guild. they "sold" SnV and other HMs (they had 5 or so NiM grps). it was no big deal. it happens all the time.

in raiding scenes with an actual pulse, there is a lot more "selling" of achievements b/c the games actually churn out new content. so the achievements are time sensitive. why you don't "see it" on SF is b/c there's nothing to sell. and no one to sell it...as it were.

i've been in super casual guilds with progression teams that put normal on farm and then pull their garbage guildies through it while their prog works on HM. then they do the same for HM when their progs work on NiM.  are you going to tell me those trash can guildies earned that achievement b/c they're guildies? or b/c she's the GM's gf? lol please. the GF's giving sexual favors for her carry. you gonna tell me paying a hypercrate is bad when that's going on? get over yourself.

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by krackcommando

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

48 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

no. I've been playing this and other similar raid-based mmorpgs for 20 years. this is how it happens.

As have I.

I'm not going to speak for other games, as I haven't played a ton of other mmorpgs, off the top of my head, STO, DDO, LOTRO, EVE Online, and Elite Dangerous. I've never been into progression raiding in any other game other than SWTOR and DDO. But I also didn't play those other games nearly as long as SWTOR.

I'm also not interested in what goes on in other games as even if that was true of every other mmorpgs in existence, that would still not mandate it to be so in SWTOR. Which it isn't.

48 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

the fact of the matter is that swtor is basically a dead game for any sort of high end gaming (raiding, fps/dungeons, pvp). the majority of guilds run around like moths to the flame face rolling through SM content. they do "progression" on raids that are literally 5+ years old.

I'm not sure I'd go quite that far, but there is some truth to the limited nature of high end gaming. Also, there are no dungeons in this game.

The age of the Operation is meaningless. For those that haven't done them before, they are effectively brand new. So if you are a progression raider now, and this is your first go at that stuff, the age of it is irrelevant information.

I don't have a clue what most guilds are doing because I haven't been in a guild in over 3 years and neither I, nor you, or anyone else knows what the majority of guilds on all servers, at all times, 24/7 are doing. It's a ridiculous statement to make to speak for what the majority of all guilds are doing.

48 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

I was in a big progression raiding guild. they "sold" SnV and other HMs (they had 5 or so NiM grps). it was no big deal. it happens all the time.

That's certainly possible, and I'm happy to take your word for it, some are definitely guilty of such practices. All I will say regarding that is, whatever guild that was, those engaging in such practices were lame as hell IMO, skilled as they may be.

I'm sure it wasn't a big deal, because people in that guild were doing it, so clearly it wasn't a big deal for them. But if you think a majority of raiders outside that guild necessarily shared opinion that such practices were 'no big deal' or that 'it happens all the time' overall in the game at large, I'd beg to differ.

48 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

in raiding scenes with an actual pulse, there is a lot more "selling" of achievements b/c the games actually churn out new content. so the achievements are time sensitive.

Well, I think it's fair to say, and I think you might actually agree me on this, that's certainly not the case in this game, because at the rate this game turns out new content, and even more so with regard to raids, nothing is time sensitive because it's going to be years in between the release of new operation and a subsequent operation after that.

If you were referring to other games, which I think is likely, once again, we're not talking about other games, we're talking about this game. And there is no time sensitive in the operations scene in this game.

48 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

  are you going to tell me those trash can guildies earned that achievement b/c they're guildies? or b/c she's the GM's gf? lol please. the GF's giving sexual favors for her carry.

I'm most certainly not going to say that, those that do that certainly didn't earn those achievements but I would venture to say many of those"trash can guildies'  that earned them that way probably aren't going around making any big claims of their legitimacy because their skills are so poor no one would ever believe them anyways. They might straight up say "Yeah, my guildies helped me out with that." Because there's no shame in that.

But there is some shame in saying "Yeah, I paid some people to get me thru that content." and that's why you don't often see people admitting that publicly. People lie about it.

If you can't see the difference between helping someone and pimping, I don't know what to tell you than.

Wings of the architect sort of lose their luster when you paid to get them and didn't earn them.

Furthermore, they might not even realize that happened.  Their guildies might have said, "just come with us, don't worry about it, it won't be a problem.", knowing they could carry them.

I wouldn't much blame anyone for a carry if there were sexual favors involved. Sexual favors are pretty high up on the list of priorities for most men.

48 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

you gonna tell me paying a hypercrate is bad when that's going on? get over yourself.

What I'm going to tell you is, no it's not 'bad', it's just lame as hell.

And it's got nothing to do with me. I'm not the one cheating. I fail to see how other people cheating is applicable to me 'getting over myself.' I didn't realize that cheating had become a virtuous thing.

Edited July 13, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[xxSHOONYxx]

1 hour ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

That's not Jealously, that's calling out cheating and lame ass people.

You saying that all NiM operations are easy is just you bragging. They're not all easy.

I'm sure your a very good player, I don't doubt that for a minute. But many people have done NiM operations, RM HM, and for it's time,  TOS HM/Ranagers HM, referred to back than as 'Hardmare', and they don't all think it's easy, so I'm really not all that interested in that sort of smack. You wanna say everyone else is bad, go for it.

You wanna try and defend that practice of Sales runs, that really tells me all I need to know. I don't have any respect for anyone that does it, advocates it, or defends it.

And if you ask me, and this is just my opinion, no real raider would defend that lame ass horse crap.

You think that's okay? That's a you problem, not a me problem.

I stand by everything I said.

Call it whatever you want. I have spoken to people that admitted it as jealousy, and before i was at that level i was also upset some people had those titles that didn't deserve them. 

I am not bragging and don't care about my or other persons skill level, it's a simple fact. If something is supposed to be the hardest content this game has and is tuned for 8 people, if only 7 people can do it then it's not hard. Something that is truly hard wouldn't be able to be sold because the 8 persons on the group would need to pull their own weight. 

I don't care if sale runs go on and even when i was invited to do sales on 4 different servers i was too lazy to do them, especially now that i don't play anymore, but it's actually pretty funny how some people speak about them as if it is the root of all evil. People complain about the high end raiders about how smug elitist and how they want to gatekeep things yet it's other people that want to gatekeep some achievement that per my above definition are not hard, because it loses the value of it? Value that after 3.0 is literally 0.

Then what is a real raider to you? Because as i said every person that is on sales, or at least the most known are the best at the game from the most pve skilled guilds like Failure Ordinance and Farming Components if they even sill play. And the ones that clear every single new op on the first day or week. 

[xxSHOONYxx]

1 hour ago, Balameb said:

Trading is a key component of the game and its economy. Selling runs is not. Game do not need sale runs to sale CM items (at one point maybe it did, but current sale runs no longer provide indirect extra sales to CM). Also game don't need sale runs to have people doing MM/NiM, might be less players? probably, the ones leaving will not be missed.

You are missing my point, every aspect of the game can be taken advantage of by credit sellers, whether by selling credits or every single item on the CM by a fraction of the price. So sales, gtn, trading, mail, everything is affected by it. If you want to take down everything that credit sellers can use you may as well shut the game down

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

1 minute ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Call it whatever you want. I have spoken to people that admitted it as jealousy, and before i was at that level i was also upset some people had those titles that didn't deserve them. 

Well, maybe you have spoken to some people who said that's the reason. I'm not gonna say "No, that didn't happen." I wasn't there. But even if that was the case, than that applies to those people, and only those people, not everyone else.

And, IMO, I don't think that's the case for most people who have a problem with that practice. I don't know many people who are jealous of people cheating.

Again, I don't doubt for a minute your an excellent player. But, if that's something you have engaged in and still think is okay, than you're just someone who's okay with people cheating.

I'm not your mother, your ethical standards are yours to hold as you see fit.

Speaking only for myself, my problems with it are not based on jealousy. I have nothing to be jealous of in that regard.

6 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Something that is truly hard wouldn't be able to be sold because the 8 persons on the group would need to pull their own weight. 

You're certainly entitled to that opinion, it is simply one I don't share.

6 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

I don't care if sale runs go on and even when i was invited to do sales on 4 different servers i was too lazy to do them, especially now that i don't play anymore, but it's actually pretty funny how some people speak about them as if it is the root of all evil.

Quite honestly, I'm not losing any sleep over it myself. I disagree with the practice, I consider it cheating, but it's not exactly a global epidemic either.

And I don't consider it 'evil' in any way, shape or form. It's just poor sportsmanship from my POV.

10 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Then what is a real raider to you?

Well, perhaps that wasn't the best way of wording it on my part. People who do sale runs are excellent players, their skill is beyond reproach. I consider them people who tarnish the reputation of raiders at large.

I can acknowledge their skills and still think what they are doing is unsportsmanlike conduct.

 

[krackcommando]

20 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

I'm not sure I'd go quite that far, but there is some truth to the limited nature of high end gaming. Also, there are no dungeons in this game.

i guess you're not baloo who wants to argue over the definition of every word, so this isn't to be flippant, but I did use a slash there. fps in this game are dungeons in others. the slash means "or" because they are interchangeable. fps in this game are a cake walk. there's basically just MM. other games, you can have an entire, virtually endless/infinite difficulty,  FP/Dungeon that becomes a game mode in itself. basically endless FP/dungeon progression akin to raid progression. tbh, once M+ became a thing in WoW (I can't remember exactly what xpack that corresponded to in SWTOR), I lost a lot of interest in raiding. but if such a thing existed for FPs, the "purchasing" of cheevos would certainly follow. but I digress....

22 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

The age of the Operation is meaningless. For those that haven't done them before, they are effectively brand new. So if you are a progression raider now, and this is your first go at that stuff, the age of it is irrelevant information.

you misunderstand me. if I beat EC HM when it's "live" (2.0? 3.0?), then I'm done with it. re-scaling it and calling that "new content" doesn't work for me. it's not "new" just b/c BW couldn't be bothered to create actual new content, so they re-scaled old content and said, "but look! it's new again. and you can get new gear from it." no. it's old. I conquered it at 55/60 (forget which). we're done here. 

as for the rest, I'm not going to itemize every response. I'll just say that carrying and getting carried is a fact of raiding/FPs. in my experience, the ppl "paying" (with in-game items) for their carry, are not doing it to boast about what great gamers they are. they do it b/c they want the title or mount or armor or cosmetic that comes along with it...b/c it looks cool. and that, my friend, fits my description of 90% of the ppl still playing this game. it's like a smorgasbord of cosmetic dumps and decos to space barbie your dream house (or sh) on <insert planet>.

xxSHOONYxx mentioned earlier that there really isn't any "challenging" content in this game, and there are fewer high end raiders in the game who can carry as a result. i mean...I think it was KotFE that didn't have a single new OP/raid, and iirc, KotET only had one? or was that Onslaught? anyway, this is spot on:

On 7/12/2023 at 1:43 PM, xxSHOONYxx said:

Price goes up also (besides all the inflation) because less and less people by updates are able to carry people since the game did a bad job in keeping raiding community engaged in the game so with less competition as to who can do those runs prices can be dictated by the very few that remain.

that, my friend, is why you see so little activity in the selling of cheevos. the raid scene is mostly dead (but not enough to go through it's pockets for loose change!). will BS succeed? it'll take a miracle. (but if they do, I guarantee you'll see the market pick up on fleet as well 😉).

[OlBuzzard]

What in the name of common sense ever happened to playing a game ( ANY game just) for fun.  The more I read about this situation the more I'm disappointed as to what an industry can turn to in order to get stuff in said game!  I mean .. I've always understood that gamers had a different standard of life than most ... but this is just plain nuts!

Unbelievable!!!

[/shrugs]

Welcome to the real world of SWTOR ???

I somehow have a hard time believing that this sort of practice is what ANY development team had in mind... in times past ... OR now for that matter.

BTW... @WayOfTheWarriorx ... the word lame ... doesn't even begin to cover this.  But that's just me!

Maybe it's time for me to hang up the old keyboard after all.

 

[xxSHOONYxx]

14 minutes ago, OlBuzzard said:

What in the name of common sense ever happened to playing a game ( ANY game just) for fun.  The more I read about this situation the more I'm disappointed as to what an industry can turn to in order to get stuff in said game!  I mean .. I've always understood that gamers had a different standard of life than most ... but this is just plain nuts!

Unbelievable!!!

[/shrugs]

Welcome to the real world of SWTOR ???

I somehow have a hard time believing that this sort of practice is what ANY development team had in mind... in times past ... OR now for that matter.

BTW... @WayOfTheWarriorx ... the word lame ... doesn't even begin to cover this.  But that's just me!

Maybe it's time for me to hang up the old keyboard after all.

 

Gaming changed, before to get something you had to be good or spend a lot of time, game success before depended on how good the game was. Now a game succeeds depending on how much you exploit your customers with microtransactions, loot boxes or in game stores. People are exploited to be used to paying for things instead of working for them and they make gameplay to support the customer wasting money on their store, that is their goal, not the gameplay, because well, they want the money. Every multiplayer AAA game now has a store, even some singe players have. 

The only developers that don't go as far, yet, are japanese devs. The rest is just garbage that want easy money and not make a good product

Edited July 13, 2023 by xxSHOONYxx

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

i guess you're not baloo who wants to argue over the definition of every word, so this isn't to be flippant, but I did use a slash there. fps in this game are dungeons in others. the slash means "or" because they are interchangeable.

Fair enough. Admittedly, that was just a little poke at you. I know you know there's no dungeons in this game.

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

tbh, once M+ became a thing in WoW (I can't remember exactly what xpack that corresponded to in SWTOR), I lost a lot of interest in raiding. but if such a thing existed for FPs, the "purchasing" of cheevos would certainly follow. but I digress....

I'm gonna have to take your word for that, which I'm fine with, I have virtually no experience in WoW. I couldn't even get out of the starter area with how god awful the graphics were.

And, again, I'm fully aware of and acknowledge that "purchasing" of cheevos is a thing, and it does happen. I just don't agree with the degree to which you are framing it to be. Other than that, our only disagreement is on the 'ethics' involved. (I use that term loosely, I'm sure you gather my meaning.) And even on that, it's disagreement of opinion. The 'right or wrong' of it, perhaps is abit subjective.

At this point we've both made our positions on that clear and I think you'll probably agree that neither of us are likely to change the other's mind.

 

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

you misunderstand me. if I beat EC HM when it's "live" (2.0? 3.0?), then I'm done with it. re-scaling it and calling that "new content" doesn't work for me. it's not "new" just b/c BW couldn't be bothered to create actual new content, so they re-scaled old content and said, "but look! it's new again. and you can get new gear from it." no. it's old. I conquered it at 55/60 (forget which). we're done here. 

Okay, Gotcha. I gather your meaning now and that's fine. That's how you see it and that's how you operate. Personal preference. Understood.

And I agree, you can dress that up however you want, you could make it part of Galactic Seasons or some such other event, still the same old content. Not all raiders take that view, so, that's just a matter of personal views and preference.

The groups that I played in weren't like that. We switched around when we got bored of something, or we were hitting a wall with something and we just wanted to take a break before we went back at it and sometimes we re-visted some of the content we had already covered.

Just a different modus operandi.

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

as for the rest, I'm not going to itemize every response. I'll just say that carrying and getting carried is a fact of raiding/FPs. in my experience, the ppl "paying" (with in-game items) for their carry, are not doing it to boast about what great gamers they are. they do it b/c they want the title or mount or armor or cosmetic that comes along with it...b/c it looks cool. and that, my friend, fits my description of 90% of the ppl still playing this game. it's like a smorgasbord of cosmetic dumps and decos to space barbie your dream house (or sh) on <insert planet>.

That's your experience, that's fine. And again, I don't disagree that that stuff goes on, it always has, it always will.

I get why some people are tempted by it. Wings of the Architect do look pretty friggen bad ass. Plus the whole playing Space Barbie thing, like you mentioned, is very popular and people have different styles and things they want to accentuate and rare and hard to get items are great way to do that.

We have some different views on things here, but, just for the record, I don't think that kinda thing makes someone a 'bad person' or anything like that, I just think it's unsportsmanlike. You have your views on it and I have mine, and we can just agree to disagree because all this is doing at this point is derailing what was being discussed initially and it just sort of went off on a tangent when tempers started to frey.

Edited July 14, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

3 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

BTW... @WayOfTheWarriorx ... the word lame ... doesn't even begin to cover this.  But that's just me!

Yeah ,well, you know me, Old man, I was just trying to be a gentleman. =p

😉

[OlBuzzard]

1 hour ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

Yeah ,well, you know me, Old man, I was just trying to be a gentleman. =p

😉

A gentleman ... you! (?)

Someone needs to report a hacked account !!!

😜

[OlBuzzard]

4 hours ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Gaming changed, before to get something you had to be good or spend a lot of time, game success before depended on how good the game was. Now a game succeeds depending on how much you exploit your customers with microtransactions, loot boxes or in game stores. People are exploited to be used to paying for things instead of working for them and they make gameplay to support the customer wasting money on their store, that is their goal, not the gameplay, because well, they want the money. Every multiplayer AAA game now has a store, even some singe players have. 

The only developers that don't go as far, yet, are japanese devs. The rest is just garbage that want easy money and not make a good product

NO disrespect intended .. BUT I just can't see that as justification for individuals making THOSE kinds of choices.  All of us each day have an opportunity to make choices on our own.  I'm sorry.  I just can't buy into this explanation (no pun intended).  It should also be noted that is not a rant.  I'm simply pointing out the matter of individuals choosing their own path.  

I could choose to go out tomorrow and drop 80 Large on a new boat.  I could do that.  And yet the simple fact is that there are consequences for making that kind of a decision.  So ...  I choose to wait until I find what I'm looking for used ... AND at the right price.  The quickest way would be to simply drive across town and talk with some people that I have grown to know quite well the last few years and simply pick one out and decide to go for it!  But the quickest way is not always the right or best way to do things.

I hope this makes sense.

[xxSHOONYxx]

1 minute ago, OlBuzzard said:

NO disrespect intended .. BUT I just can't see that as justification for individuals making THOSE kinds of choices.  All of us each day have an opportunity to make choices on our own.  I'm sorry.  I just can't buy into this explanation (no pun intended).  It should also be noted that is not a rant.  I'm simply pointing out the matter of individuals choosing their own path.  

I could choose to go out tomorrow and drop 80 Large on a new boat.  I could do that.  And yet the simple fact is that there are consequences for making that kind of a decision.  So ...  I choose to wait until I find what I'm looking for used ... AND at the right price.  The quickest way would be to simply drive across town and talk with some people that I have grown to know quite well the last few years and simply pick one out and decide to go for it!  But the quickest way is not always the right or best way to do things.

I hope this makes sense.

It's not as easy, first you are old (in a nice way, the new gaming industry targets young people not +30) and second game companies as opposed to boat companies use predatory and psychological methods to trick their customers to spend on their game. 

If you google a bit you see all the people that went bankrupt because of in game stores and microtransactions.  
Some games even go as far as showing special "offers" at times when people are more likely to be drunk and make irresponsible decisions. They use proven methods to make people spend. They don't designe a gameplay and then the monetization, they create the monetization and then make the gameplay inconvenient so the users fall or are more likely to use the in game store, or straight out create issues on the gameplay so they can sell the "solution" on the store. 
Is not just a matter of choices, they lure you into it, everyone know gambling is bad and could lead to addiction, yet it still happens and you can see the stories of ruined families because of it.

And they see hey can manipulate their costumers so much microtransactions are even leaving the game industry now into other things, you even have cars that you have to pay a subscription to use features that is already on the car but not activated till you pay monthly. And with everything having software now, until laws are made, it will be seen more often in different products. You don't even own what you buy anymore.
 

[JakRoanin]

1 hour ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

It's not as easy, first you are old (in a nice way, the new gaming industry targets young people not +30) and second game companies as opposed to boat companies use predatory and psychological methods to trick their customers to spend on their game. 

 

This 39 yr old has only one thing to say... If you know smoking will kill you and you still start tomorrow it's not on the tobacco companies it's on you. Same thing with games these companies aren't responsible for people spending insane amounts. The people who do usually have mental health issues, and they and their families are responsible for proper help and treatment. How do I know? Been there done it moved on to healthier habits.

 

 

 

 

[OlBuzzard]

1 hour ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

It's not as easy, first you are old (in a nice way, the new gaming industry targets young people not +30) and second game companies as opposed to boat companies use predatory and psychological methods to trick their customers to spend on their game. 

If you google a bit you see all the people that went bankrupt because of in game stores and microtransactions.  
Some games even go as far as showing special "offers" at times when people are more likely to be drunk and make irresponsible decisions. They use proven methods to make people spend. They don't designe a gameplay and then the monetization, they create the monetization and then make the gameplay inconvenient so the users fall or are more likely to use the in game store, or straight out create issues on the gameplay so they can sell the "solution" on the store. 
Is not just a matter of choices, they lure you into it, everyone know gambling is bad and could lead to addiction, yet it still happens and you can see the stories of ruined families because of it.

And they see hey can manipulate their costumers so much microtransactions are even leaving the game industry now into other things, you even have cars that you have to pay a subscription to use features that is already on the car but not activated till you pay monthly. And with everything having software now, until laws are made, it will be seen more often in different products. You don't even own what you buy anymore.
 

Ummm  Not trying to jump your case ... so don't take it that way.. BUT ..  frankly the bass boat industry (in particular) is facing some similar difficulties.  Bass fishing is no longer the fun sport it use to be (for a lot of people).  It is just about totally out of control for a number of reasons.  I don't want to derail this thread.. soo (if it's permissible) I'd like to simply say "please believe me when I tell you that this is a fact.  (Seriously ... over 100K today for some brands of bass boats ...  a BASS boat ... NOT a cruiser ... a BASS BOAT).  Even worse:  the tournament series that are available have become totally irresponsible and have taken a toll on our resources.  A field of 100 rigs in ONE tournament is not uncommon on some lakes!!  😲  (This is just a couple items).

In the end ... people have to be responsible for their own actions.  When my wife and I were first married .. we made some bad choices and got into a lot of debt.  BUT ... we learned some hard lessons!  Today we're retired and virtually debt free.  No .. I'm not rich by any means.  BUT we did learn now to control a lot of expenditures and it paid off.

Problem is today too many want instant gratification for everything!  I guess what I'm trying to say is that regardless of what a person does (even playing a game) at some point in time a degree of responsibility must be accepted.  AND YES that goes for the developers as well.

For example:  I have YET to purchase ANY hypercrates:  Not even off of the GTN at a bargain for resale to make profit.  WHY ??  Because IMO they represent one thing:  a gamble.  And I really don't like the idea of gambling in order to get what I want.  I'd prefer to simply work for it!  It takes a lot longer to get things done!  BUT in the end what we have represents more of an achievement.

BTW...  I'm not suggesting that you're wrong about the usage of microtransactions ...  I just personally choose to stay away from that stuff as much as possible.  Yeah.. I know I'm just an old dude out of step with the rest of the real world.  And maybe that's true.  BUT ... on the other hand after being married for 49 years it's kept me out of trouble (well ... for the most part) 😉.

Edited July 14, 2023 by OlBuzzard
clarification

[JakRoanin]

2 minutes ago, OlBuzzard said:

 😲 I know I'm just an old dude out of step with the rest of the real world.  And maybe that's true.  BUT ... on the other hand after being married for 49 years it's kept me out of trouble (well ... for the most part) 😉.

Hey Mr. Buzz what does it mean when a 39yr. old, old maid agrees completely with everything! Only I prefer my Fluke biting on the bay.

[OlBuzzard]

1 minute ago, JakRoanin said:

Hey Mr. Buzz what does it mean when a 39yr. old, old maid agrees completely with everything! Only I prefer my Fluke biting on the bay.

ROFL !!  Careful!  That could SERIOUSLY damage your reputation!

😜

[JakRoanin]

What reputation? I'm a story player who wouldn't care if OPS and PVP ended tomorrow! 😂

[OlBuzzard]

9 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

What reputation? I'm a story player who wouldn't care if OPS and PVP ended tomorrow! 😂

Hmmm..  Well!  I guess I'm a bit strange.  Even though I'm not into PvP or OPs ... I know that there are a lot of players that are.  And TBQH ...  I don't know of that many MMO's that are worth a whole lot without both of those types of player engagement!  Granted some games might refer to them as something else other than OPs (such as Mythic Dungeons or Raids) ... but just the same.

It's something that I've said a long time ago.  To those who play PvP ... they might not like those that are PvE only (and visa versa)  .. but the simple fact is that we all need each other.  All of it together is what makes the game complete!  Without it ... it's just another game with a Star Wars label on it!

My son AND granddaughter can't wait to drag me into a couple of the new Raids in WoW!  And maybe one day I'll tag along since I'm not geared up to 424.

Not trying to come across as harsh .. just sayin' that the whole game is important.  That is what brought most of us here together in the first place.  AND if we're going to continue into the future ... that's what will help make that a reality!

 

 

[xxSHOONYxx]

1 hour ago, JakRoanin said:

If you know smoking will kill you and you still start tomorrow it's not on the tobacco companies it's on you.

From where i am smoking used to be look as "cool" before, peer pressure alone would be smoke or not be cool. Tobbaco companies have lost so many millions on lawsuits due to their consumers dying. And the government had to take actions and now cigarettes boxes have a huge "smoking kills" in most countries.
Even gov entities worldwide and the Doj won lawsuit against those companies under this points:
- Hazards of smokinng
- Nature of addiction (sounds familiar?)
- Nicotine manipulation
- Light cigarettes
- Secondhand smoke
- Marketing youth (sounds familiar?)
- Suppression of information (sounds familiar?)

And the companies had to pay something like 246 billions for the lost of the Doj lawsuit alone. 
Same as now how some see it as peer pressure having something cool to have so others can see, or someone has it so you have to have it too. Plus all the attempts at manipulation game companies do.
 

 

48 minutes ago, OlBuzzard said:

Problem is today too many want instant gratification for everything!

48 minutes ago, OlBuzzard said:

I just personally choose to stay away from that stuff as much as possible.  Yeah.. I know I'm just an old dude out of step with the rest of the real world.

That is the whole point, games and especially the aggressive and predatory monetization is not targeted at you, is targeted at young people because they don't know better. 
They hire people to see how they manipulate their customers, you can go to google or youtube and find conferences on "let's go whaling" where devs teach other devs what to do in game to catch their "whale" and their psyche and what each type of player spends on what and how to take advantage of them. I wouldn't be surprised if 1/4 of a game budget goes into paying people that study the human behavior to see how they can take advantage of people and exploit them.
Mobile games have been doing it for ages, and it went into tripe A games trying to copy it and now is going outside of gaming.

To give you a short example, this are the top earning mobile games, free mobile games that are made for the purpose to pray on the human weaknesses and make money

Honor of kings - 16.1b revenue (since 2015)
Monster Strike - 10.5b revenue (since 2013)
Pubg mobile - 10b revenue (since 2018)
Puzzles & Dragons - 8.6b revenue (since 2012)
Clash of Clans - 8.4b revenue (since 2012)
Pokemon Go - 7.8b revenue (since 2016)
Candy Crush - 7.7b revenue (since 2012)
Genshin impact - 4b revenue (since 2020)

Doesn't mean that people that fall for it are not at fault of their own, but they are targeted specifically because they are the ones that are the most vulnerable  
 

Edited July 14, 2023 by xxSHOONYxx

[JakRoanin]

No nobody is saying that tobacco companies aren't evil, (they literally sell stuff that kills) nobody is saying Gaming Companies SHOULD do this, but personal responsibility still applies! We all have to choose. That's on all of us!

@OlBuzzard I don't want raiding and PvP gone I just wouldn't care if they were.

Edited July 14, 2023 by JakRoanin

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

20 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Mobile games have been doing it for ages, and it went into tripe A games trying to copy it and now is going outside of gaming.

To give you a short example, this are the top earning mobile games, free mobile games that are made for the purpose to pray on the human weaknesses and make money

Yeah, that stuff is terrible. And you're totally right, it just prey's on human weakness. Gambling can destroy peoples lives when it gets out of hand and it can be hard for the individual to realize when they've actually hit that state.

"One more hand and I can make back all my loses." Than they say it again, and again, and again. All these hypercrates, it preys on the same weakness, if less damaging. But, I'm sure a lot of people have spent a lot more money on them than they should have.

I mean, you can spend days doing gathering missions, crafting things and selling them and deco-hunting for sales and the time that's needed to invest in it, or you can buy a few hypecrates and making 10x the amount in 10 minutes you would make from the aforementioned activities.

Or, you can just spend 5 or 10 bucks and buy a few billion from credit sellers. You can reason that in your mind as a big time saver and I guess that's why a lot of people do it.

These video games that have P2W and all the RNG packs, they all feed into the same idea and that's preying on human weakness in the name of money.

Ultimately though, it's the responsibility of each individual to try and muster the will to not give into it. Some people might wanna blame the companies that engage in that sort of marketing, but we can't rule out the responsibility of the individuals to engage themselves in those sorts of schemes either.

Edited July 14, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Bigfallenstar]

Choices. That's the thing here. It's up to each person to decide whether they want to spend a few dollars to get an edge on the competition or not. The company is just providing a service. Like the cigarette company, the gaming company isn't twisting or forcing someone to buy lootboxs. Nobody said anything about the boxes in Battlefield 4 that they it incites gambling because you can get weapons and attachments for your guns from them, so you have less recoil or see your target clearer. But in Battlefront 2, when you got a star card that made your grenade cooldown 2% faster everyone was up in arms about it, and demanded EA fix this. Why? Because you had the same choice as that person to buy some crystals and get a box of star cards, yet you choose not to. They did and got lucky.

 

I might get roasted for this, but I'm going to say it anyway. Lootboxes aren't the problem. It's the people who don't have any discipline who are the problem. Like someone else in this thread said. It's a mental illness, they have a problem, and need help. You don't fix a headache by removing the head. You don't sue a casino because you gambled your car and house at the blackjack table. You go to gambler's anonymous, or your family and close friends, and get the help you need.

[DeannaVoyager]

12 hours ago, krackcommando said:

you're right. I conflated "sale run" with paying for it with credits/in-game object.

as for the rest...I support "paying" players with "in game items and currencies."  as this whole conversation started out of paying with items while trying to avoid the trade tax. "a million credits to run me through [X] FP [Y] times." ok. "A hypercrate for each player in the OPs to carry me through NiM OP"? ok. this game thrives on that kinda crap (the CM). This happens all the time in raiding. it's not some deeply troubling or horrific thing.

Now if you go to some grp's website and pay them directly to carry you in-game (RMT), then yeah. TOS violation. boom. that actually is a different thing. agreed.

as for the rest, the only difference between so-called "helping" (carrying) someone is that you (the helper) have a "connection" to the one being "helped" that is worth "helping" accomplish a task that they didn't earn. so according to you and baloo(?), there's some moral justification to carry someone if you like them, but it's not ok to carry someone if they're offering you an in-game item? lol. that difference is utterly arbitrary. it's just a rationalization to justify skirting the spirit of the achievement that you (impersonal) want to hold as sacrosanct or meaningful...but not if it's a friend or a guildy?

Helping someone to clear content and taking money to corpse carry them for cheevos and iems are two different things. You know that, but you've got nothing else to argue with, so you're just deliberately twisting the truth here to make it fit your narrative. 

 

If you are surrounded by people who cheat and break ToS "all the time" in "every guild" you've been in, it tells more about you and your values than the majority of the playerbase.