Stop ripping me off!

[SteveTheCynic]

6 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Carrying or paying for carries has never been fundamental part of MY game

It's an unavoidable part of *any* MMORPG that has achievements or other in-game goodies (Wings of the Architect?) associated with group content.  That doesn't make it a fundamental part (== something which is an essential defining element) of the genre, just unavoidable.  Carries for those goodies are going to happen, and opportunists will attempt to benefit from being a carrier.

One of the problems in recent SWTOR is that the inflation of the P2P economy has driven the prices for anything P2P so high that it almost becomes easier to just do it as an RMT operation.  Before the recent anti-inflation changes, I saw prices for NiM Ops carries discussed here on the forums as being on the order of 70-ish hypercrates.  Can you imagine anyone even *thinking* of asking for that much in 2017 or 2018?

[xxSHOONYxx]

1 minute ago, SteveTheCynic said:

One of the problems in recent SWTOR is that the inflation of the P2P economy has driven the prices for anything P2P so high that it almost becomes easier to just do it as an RMT operation.  Before the recent anti-inflation changes, I saw prices for NiM Ops carries discussed here on the forums as being on the order of 70-ish hypercrates.  Can you imagine anyone even *thinking* of asking for that much in 2017 or 2018?

Price goes up also (besides all the inflation) because less and less people by updates are able to carry people since the game did a bad job in keeping raiding community engaged in the game so with less competition as to who can do those runs prices can be dictated by the very few that remain.
And they also did a disservice to the rest of the people, they made everything so easy in the game that new players just expect that to the be the norm and when they reach a roadblock they prefer to pay some credits/hypercrates than get/form a group and get good and get whatever they want. So even the demand for 10 year old ops achievements is still high. 

Even when nim crystals were a thing people would rather pay up a group than have a group of everyone using nim crystals and make the op easy. Some people will always want things without effort

[krackcommando]

3 hours ago, Balameb said:

Nope. Fundamental part of a game is....play the actual game. Staying dead on the floor while others play for you to get an achievment that was meant to be earned can be a lot of things, but one thing is NOT is 'fundamental'.

That piece in bold...just WOW. You are basically saying that the guilds you Know instead of teaching new players how to play the game they encourage to pay to complete things? Basically asking to spend their money so you don't have to? I feel pity on the noobs you are milking.

And really every guild you know? How may guild do you know? Because the ones i'm in on a couple servers and ones i play with to do group content has never, EVER asked for single credit for people to join them.

Your post makes it more than clear that sale runs should be banned.

 

every single guild I've ever known or seen has carried trash. some in their guild. some friends from other guilds. the good guilds, those who put HM and NiM raids on farm, either quit until new content comes along, or they sell slots in their raid.

selling slots in your raid does two things: it presents you with a challenge (how many garbage players can you carry and still drop bosses?) and it refills the guilds' and guildies' coffers. in other words, some ppl make money crafting, others gathering and (imo) wasting their time playing the GTN. most top tier players spend their time downing bosses and instead of farming crap, they get unique crafting materials from the higher tier bosses they down and by getting paid to carry ppl through HM content. it's the privilege of being good. it's that or just stop playing b/c there's nothing to do in this boring arse game (if you're a raider). fwiw, this applies as much to WoW as SWTOR, and the content drops in WoW (along with the M+ dungeons) give top end players a lot more to do at end game. but still, they conquer it and then what? quit or carry. it's been this way for the better part of 2 decades. so...uh...iunno what game you (plural) are playing. but...uh...yeah. that's the game I know.

as for your comment about teaching new players, iunno what juju you're on. let's look at WoW (you know, a game that actually has a raiding community because they actually get new raids - shots fired BROADSWORD!). you have a guild team. that team works hard together on a new HM. they work through it. they figure it out. the put the HM raid on farm and then move to Mythic (NiM). while working on mythic, they have HM on farm. they might use that HM lockout to gear up alts, gear up guildies who cannot make the progression cut or...wait for it...they might sell some slots in the raid to make some money for the guild, for repairs, and/or for guildies. if the outsider who contracts them for it wants it, then they get it. what the hell is it to you? there's a mount associated with every HM raid. it's called Ahead of the Curve (AotC - not to be confused with the crappy SW movie). many ppl just want the mount (cosmetic junkies. bet you don't know any of them in this candy arse game either, huh?). so they pay a guild that has HM on farm for a slot to get the cheevo and voila. they get their pretty little mount. iunno how the hell you can criticize that, especially in this game in which virtually all content has been turned into participation trophies. but w/e.

[krackcommando]

2 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

And the second point: why do you think it's okay to pay real money to third party sale run groups instead of paying cartel coins to BW/BS where the money would at least go to a correct address? Unless BW/BS is getting a cut of the sale runs, what you are saying makes no sense. Sale runs are literally stealing from what the game could profit when they are done with RMT. When they are done with in game credits, they are supporting the credit sellers. If buying "achievements" is a fundamental part of the game, why aren't they in cartel market?  

I didn't say anything about real money. but I do think if someone's going to pay real money for it, then /shrug. game isn't that important. but apparently it is for some ppl? but hey, if they wanna pay real money for an in-game item and then trade that to me (and I want that item), why shouldn't I take in trade for services (carry) rendered? he did nothing wrong (buying a CM cosmetic). he didn't pay me. he paid EA/BW/BS. perfectly legit transaction. or are we suddenly pretending that the cheevo of completing a certain OPs or FPs is suddenly sacrosanct. like...you know...rated rewards that anyone can buy no matter how pathetically bad they are so long as they grind out the tokens? see where this is going?

edit: players get carried in group content. period. full stop.

when I was playing team rated WZs, I was easily outclassed by everyone on my team. we were a great team. 2nd or 3rd on the server. I was getting carried (no one else was willing to heal 🤨). that's how grp content is. rarely is everyone the same skill level. it's what solo pvpers often cry about with grps: "that baddy hiding behind his group," etc, etc. some people have friends willing to carry. others "pay" (in game trade) for it. perfectly legit.

edit2 per stevetheprecisionwordclarifier: sure. change fundamental to synonymous. carrying players for cheevos is synonymous with end-game raiding for decades. as long as I've played them. again, I find it really hard to believe neither you nor the ppl pushing back on me hasn't carried a fellow guildy to a cheevo that they really didn't deserve....

Edited July 12, 2023 by krackcommando

[Darkestmonty]

4 hours ago, Traceguy said:

Since when does it cost money to put things in the guild bank? If you have to wait 30 days, wait 30 days. 

 

Most players tend to play for less than a month. If in that month they are completely cut off from guild support for items like free mounts etc they may play even less.

It's a scenario of "hurt the people bypassing trade tax" or "hurt new players who are playing the game for the first time"

[Balameb]

4 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

every single guild I've ever known or seen has carried trash.

Maybe you need to change the circles you move around.

I also think you are confusing carrying with helping. I mean, you can group with someone (in guild or not) an teach the content. When SM Ops were not as easy as they are today, you could see groups adding pugs in fleet with the legend 'we will teach the mechanics'.

Helping a guildmate to learn newer/harder cointent is not carry, is just helping.

Carries is when one just stays idle and no one cares to teach how things work.

6 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

some friends from other guilds. the good guilds, those who put HM and NiM raids on farm, either quit until new content comes along, or they sell slots in their raid.

Point X: I do agree the game does not reward properly being able to clear (even less farm) harder content.

7 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

selling slots in your raid does two things: it presents you with a challenge (how many garbage players can you carry and still drop bosses?) and it refills the guilds' and guildies' coffers.

The challenge could (should, imo) come from doing it faster. I mean, there is an achievment for timed run, but there is no ranking on clearing time and things like that.

Get credits/rewards: see point X

11 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

fwiw, this applies as much to WoW as SWTOR, and the content drops in WoW (along with the M+ dungeons) give top end players a lot more to do at end game. but still, they conquer it and then what? quit or carry. it's been this way for the better part of 2 decades. so...uh...iunno what game you (plural) are playing. but...uh...yeah. that's the game I know.

as for your comment about teaching new players, iunno what juju you're on. let's look at WoW (you know, a game that actually has a raiding community because they actually get new raids - shots fired BROADSWORD!). you have a guild team. that team works hard together on a new HM. they work through it. they figure it out. the put the HM raid on farm and then move to Mythic (NiM).

You know, when i said WOW, i mean in the meaning of 'wooow', not in World of Worldcraft. I do not care if sales happens in other games too, it is still wrong because it dimishes the value of those achievments. Every time i see someone with Wings of the Architech or DM crest, i think that dude has likely paid for it.

28 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

if the outsider who contracts them for it wants it, then they get it. what the hell is it to you?

Normaly is just how it reduces the value of the achievments as people can pay for it and skip the skill originaly required to get it.

But what bothers me more is how this:

23 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

he didn't pay me. he paid EA/BW/BS. perfectly legit transaction.

Stoped being true.

Now a few pay once, then it creates a circle of hypercrates being converted into a currency and moving hands (including credit sellers).

 

24 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

edit: players get carried in group content. period. full stop.

Some do. Is still NOT fundamental.

 

[xxSHOONYxx]

9 minutes ago, Balameb said:

it is still wrong because it dimishes the value of those achievments.

Is because the content is easy, no NiM content (or r4 hm until nim release that will never happen) should be clearable undermanned.
The best thing about 7.0 was (in my opinion) before the hp nerf of every single op and damage taken nerf, how things were actually challenging. I have done every single legacy nim op a million times and they became a chore before 7.0 and after 7.1 leaving the only fun op to be gods, but on 7.0 i found them actually fun because they were... challenging. You couldn't sell 8 man because the dps challenges were actual challenging and you couldn't underman it. Sales would happen but would happen to a lesser degree in 16 man because the balance of 16 man has never been a strong suit.

Even with how easy the content is now, you still see some people complaining about the difficulty.
If hardest content required for every one of the 8 members to be good you would see sales disappear from the hardest content in the game.

[krackcommando]

2 hours ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Is because the content is easy, no NiM content (or r4 hm until nim release that will never happen) should be clearable undermanned.
The best thing about 7.0 was (in my opinion) before the hp nerf of every single op and damage taken nerf, how things were actually challenging. I have done every single legacy nim op a million times and they became a chore before 7.0 and after 7.1 leaving the only fun op to be gods, but on 7.0 i found them actually fun because they were... challenging. You couldn't sell 8 man because the dps challenges were actual challenging and you couldn't underman it. Sales would happen but would happen to a lesser degree in 16 man because the balance of 16 man has never been a strong suit.

Even with how easy the content is now, you still see some people complaining about the difficulty.
If hardest content required for every one of the 8 members to be good you would see sales disappear from the hardest content in the game.

you must really love SW or the KotOR legacy to stomach treating re-scaled old content as something new (b/c it's re-scaled so it's difficult again). not mocking. just...something I fundamentally cannot do. raiding in this game got off to a slow start with bugs galore, but dearth of new OPs...some xpacks not having any OPs...is just cringe. fun fact: this is the only game I pvp in, and that's because it's the only game with a slow drip of end-game grp content that the only thing to do is pvp. personal preference of course.

as to @Balameb: bro, SWTOR is a BW/SW-skinned WoW clone. read reviews of SWTOR. that was literally the assessment of every review: "it's just WoW in space. I was hoping for something new." that hasn't fundamentally changed. I guess they're trying to prune it down to console portability, so that might make it more like ESO. 😄 but yeah. sorry, man. you're playing WoW with epically bad end game. so much so that in the past few years, the content creators pretty much gave up on improving content. so they just turned everything into hamster wheel grind circles.

and if you wanna get back on track, the big difference between the two games is the CM market fundamentally (used properly, steveo?) changes the economic game. in WoW, you can pay with game time tokens, and that's it. everything else you buy is permanently locked to your account. everything in the CM works like that. you wanna fix the ecomony? there you go. the CM. (good luck with that!) but it solves these horrific cheevo sales and the use of hypercrates et al. as currency. (again, gl with that)

Edited July 12, 2023 by krackcommando

[xxSHOONYxx]

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

you must really love SW or the KotOR legacy to stomach treating re-scaled old content as something new

Not something new, but a least it was fun because it was challenging. Friends is what kept me doing the op or helping others get their achievement, not the game itself. I cleared r4 hm in the first couple of days so its going to be almost a year that i had something new to do, haven't logged to the game since r4 nim cancelled though.

[Balameb]

14 hours ago, krackcommando said:

as to @Balameb: bro, SWTOR is a BW/SW-skinned WoW clone. read reviews of SWTOR. that was literally the assessment of every review: "it's just WoW in space. I was hoping for something new." that hasn't fundamentally changed. I guess they're trying to prune it down to console portability, so that might make it more like ESO. 😄 but yeah. sorry, man. you're playing WoW with epically bad end game. so much so that in the past few years, the content creators pretty much gave up on improving content. so they just turned everything into hamster wheel grind circles.

Remind me, what does that have to do YOU making claims that SALE RUNS (not carries, not hard group content, SALE RUNS) are FUNDAMENTAL part of the game?

What? Your mind thinks that because in other game (that this one tried to emulate) there are also sale runs, then it becomes a fundamental part? Dude, your logical reasoning has issues.

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, Balameb said:

Remind me, what does that have to do YOU making claims that SALE RUNS (not carries, not hard group content, SALE RUNS) are FUNDAMENTAL part of the game?

What? Your mind thinks that because in other game (that this one tried to emulate) there are also sale runs, then it becomes a fundamental part? Dude, your logical reasoning has issues.

sale runs have been a part of this game since its inception. and all sale runs are is paid carries. what right does some dope being in your guild have to an achievement when you have to drag his dead corpse through 30s into the fight? huh? get over yourself. "but oh. the poor person doesn't learn." blah blah blah. a person paying for a carry clearly doesn't care to learn the fight. you ppl really need to get over yourselves. so self-righteous when it's convenient. as if BW/BS isn't just giving away achievements that were supposed to be gated by skill anyway.

as long as you're paying with in-game credits/items, all is fair. using venmo or w/e outside the game? bogus. violation of TOS. ban them for life. blah blah. but if you want to cry about ppl turning in-game items into currency, I think you're in trouble because that model is enabled by the CM and all the space barbies that populate this game. and again, space barbie doesn't care about your achievements. he just want the wings cuz they look cool. deal with it.

Edited July 13, 2023 by krackcommando

[Balameb]

16 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

sale runs have been a part of this game since its inception. and all sale runs are is paid carries. what right does some dope being in your guild have to an achievement when you have to drag his dead corpse through 30s into the fight? huh? get over yourself. "but oh. the poor person doesn't learn." blah blah blah. a person paying for a carry clearly doesn't care to learn the fight. you ppl really need to get over yourselves. so self-righteous when it's convenient. as if BW/BS isn't just giving away achievements that were supposed to be gated by skill anyway.

as long as you're paying with in-game credits/items, all is fair. using venmo or w/e outside the game? bogus. violation of TOS. ban them for life. blah blah. but if you want to cry about ppl turning in-game items into currency, I think you're in trouble because that model is enabled by the CM and all the space barbies that populate this game. and again, space barbie doesn't care about your achievements. he just want the wings cuz they look cool. deal with it.

Get a dictiorary, learn what 'fundamental' means, then try again.

[DeannaVoyager]

20 hours ago, krackcommando said:

I didn't say anything about real money.

I did. Focus on what I said and not what you imagine I said please. RMT is more appealing and easier than paying with items or credits now and that's why sale runs are now  bigger problem than ever. 

As Balameb said, there's a huge difference between helping out someone (and not get paid for it) and paying some third party group of people either with credits/hypercrates bought from a gold seller or direct payment with real money.

By defending sale runs you also support gold sellers and breaking of ToS. But maybe you don't even understand that, you just decided to start arguing for other reasons.

 

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

sale runs have been a part of this game since its inception. and all sale runs are is paid carries. what right does some dope being in your guild have to an achievement when you have to drag his dead corpse through 30s into the fight? huh? get over yourself. "but oh. the poor person doesn't learn." blah blah blah. a person paying for a carry clearly doesn't care to learn the fight. you ppl really need to get over yourselves. so self-righteous when it's convenient. as if BW/BS isn't just giving away achievements that were supposed to be gated by skill anyway.

as long as you're paying with in-game credits/items, all is fair. using venmo or w/e outside the game? bogus. violation of TOS. ban them for life. blah blah. but if you want to cry about ppl turning in-game items into currency, I think you're in trouble because that model is enabled by the CM and all the space barbies that populate this game. and again, space barbie doesn't care about your achievements. he just want the wings cuz they look cool. deal with it.

  

I was HM/NiM a Progression raider in this game for years and was in 3 raid groups over those years.

If by 'part of this game' you mean that it happens sometimes, than yes, I'd agree. But to say it 'always happens', or that all progression raid groups sell carries, or that they're all cool with the idea, I'm gonna have to disagree with that.

My groups never did that because that's as lame as lame gets.  You can call it self righteous all you want. That's some shameful crap IMO, tarnishes the name of raiders and demeans raiders who spend years honing their skills, working the raids, setting scheduled time out of their daily lives to work with their raid pals on Operations and is frowned upon by many progression raiders.

I don't know what servers you played on, maybe that was more frequent on the servers you played on, but you're making statements that are far too blanket.

I have seen it happen, I know it does happen, I'm not denying that in any way, but the light your casting on it isn't something you, or anyone else is in a position to do. That might be in your experience, or what you think, but not everything you are saying are objective facts.

Carries for credits/items.packs, real life money, is akin to poor sportsmanship for those that engage in it. Most of the raiders I've had relations with frowned on that practice, didn't advocate it, and never did it. It's sort of like athletes who use steroids to gain an unfair advantage, that's something like (but not exactly) the sort of reputation sales runners have to a segment of the raider population, at least until sometime in 6.0 when I was no longer in any raid groups.

Additionally, I've been in 15 guilds over the years and not one of them ever engaged in sales runs.

Now, if you're okay with that practice, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But, in my opinion, sales runs are lame as hell. It's like win-trading.

The reasons why it happens is irrelevant. It makes having achievements pointless because they're open to suspicion than.

There's also a difference between sales runs and helping a friend out.

There were certainly times when people I was friendly with in the game, who knew I was a progression raider, and they weren't, and they would ask me to join their group because they had low DPS and they were having some trouble clearing something and I would help them out. But that was outside of my raid group and I didn't gain anything for it, it was just about giving some people a hand.

In my personal experience, and that may be different than yours, sales runs were never common place (although they certainly happen) and they were certainly looked down upon by many raiders.

Lastly, I agree with Balameb, sales runs have never been a 'fundamental' part of this game.

Edited July 13, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[OlBuzzard]

54 minutes ago, Balameb said:

Get a dictiorary, learn what 'fundamental' means, then try again.

Just because there is something that is practiced from time to time does not make it a part of playing the game as intended!  

While personally find this practice reprehensible I'm just not sure what can be done to stop it.  I share in the frustrations of a number of people who do not like the practice of so-called sales runs either!

[xxSHOONYxx]

57 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

tarnishes the name of raiders and demeans raiders who spend years honing their skills, working the raids, setting scheduled time out of their daily lives to work with their raid pals on Operations and is frowned upon by many progression raiders.

Sales were/are done by the highest skill players, mostly. Unless a group on EU that requieres to log on the buyer account so they can do it on 8 man, or so i have heard. 
 

57 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

It's sort of like athletes who use steroids to gain an unfair advantage

It's the opposite, would be like Lakers or whatever team playing with 4 players and one person from the crowd and still winning their matches. Unless you mean buyers and no seles runners. If it is buyers it would be more like running the tour of France, but they do it on a Bugatti and someone is driving for them and they are on the passenger seat

 

57 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

It makes having achievements pointless because they're open to suspicion than.

You could already argue that any achievement is already pointless if they can be attained with 7 people and not 8 like they are intended for. They are not that "skill" based. The only timer that is still somewhat skill based is DI. And if you throw into the mix all the people that got their achievements in 3.0 that nim bosses actually missed like every attack, achievements mean literally nothing pre Dxun, and that is because of Bioware designe.
 

57 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

certainly looked down upon by many raiders

That is usually jealousy in my experience, either not good enough to be able to sell it or upset that someone can buy what it took months for others to get. Which goes back to a previos point that if the achievement would be hard it wouldn't be able to be sold. 
And as long as anything is easy and some lazy people want it there will always be a place for sales. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by xxSHOONYxx

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, Balameb said:

Get a dictiorary, learn what 'fundamental' means, then try again.

you're cute. I acknowledged steve's terminology correction 8 posts earlier, adjusted it to "synonymous," and didn't even use the word once in the post you quoted. and as you can see by the timestamps of the edits, it was 20 hours before your poor attempt at a pot shot here.

[Balameb]

11 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

you're cute. I acknowledged steve's terminology correction 8 posts earlier, adjusted it to "synonymous," and didn't even use the word once in the post you quoted. and as you can see by the timestamps of the edits, it was 20 hours before your poor attempt at a pot shot here.

I must have missed that one. Still my post was from Before Steve one, and all your quotes trying (and failing) to dispute me came After. Guess you miseed your own memo.

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, DeannaVoyager said:

I did. Focus on what I said and not what you imagine I said please. RMT is more appealing and easier than paying with items or credits now and that's why sale runs are now  bigger problem than ever. 

As Balameb said, there's a huge difference between helping out someone (and not get paid for it) and paying some third party group of people either with credits/hypercrates bought from a gold seller or direct payment with real money.

By defending sale runs you also support gold sellers and breaking of ToS. But maybe you don't even understand that, you just decided to start arguing for other reasons.

 

you're right. I conflated "sale run" with paying for it with credits/in-game object.

as for the rest...I support "paying" players with "in game items and currencies."  as this whole conversation started out of paying with items while trying to avoid the trade tax. "a million credits to run me through [X] FP [Y] times." ok. "A hypercrate for each player in the OPs to carry me through NiM OP"? ok. this game thrives on that kinda crap (the CM). This happens all the time in raiding. it's not some deeply troubling or horrific thing.

Now if you go to some grp's website and pay them directly to carry you in-game (RMT), then yeah. TOS violation. boom. that actually is a different thing. agreed.

as for the rest, the only difference between so-called "helping" (carrying) someone is that you (the helper) have a "connection" to the one being "helped" that is worth "helping" accomplish a task that they didn't earn. so according to you and baloo(?), there's some moral justification to carry someone if you like them, but it's not ok to carry someone if they're offering you an in-game item? lol. that difference is utterly arbitrary. it's just a rationalization to justify skirting the spirit of the achievement that you (impersonal) want to hold as sacrosanct or meaningful...but not if it's a friend or a guildy?

[krackcommando]

9 minutes ago, Balameb said:

I must have missed that one. Still my post was from Before Steve one, and all your quotes trying (and failing) to dispute me came After. Guess you miseed your own memo.

you lost me. what do your posts on the first page have to do with my use of fundamental? you literally quoted a post that didn't use the word at all. did you even read the post you quoted? you funny guy! 🤡

iunno man. it's kinda cute that you, of all ppl, wanna nit pick my word choice after that gaff. but w/e. forum pvp moar fun than game atm. /shrug

[Balameb]

Just now, krackcommando said:

you lost me. what do your posts on the first page have to do with my use of fundamental? you literally quoted a post that didn't use the word at all. did you even read the post you quoted? you funny guy! 🤡

iunno man. it's kinda cute that you, of all ppl, wanna nit pick my word choice after that gaff. but w/e. forum pvp moar fun than game atm. /shrug

You don't need to use a word to be on the same subject. Particularly when you try to justify it with things like 'all guilds you know...'. You were literaly responding to DeannaVoyager dispute of what you considered fundamental.

And i did mentioned 'fundamental' at least twice (and you responded) before you came about how you already 'acknowledged' it.

And to back on the actual issue with less forum pvp:

I know i sometimes go too strong and give the wrong impressions so i would like to make clear that I'm not saying your opinion (and others) that (paraphrasing) 'Sale runs are fine as long as is with in game items/credits' is wrong. You have a right to that point of view, i just don't share it. We are also talking about something that by itself is not against the ToS currently. What some of us think is that it SHOULD be changed to be against the ToS. Why? Because a good portion of it (large portion) mutated and is currently supporting on the side some things that are against the ToS like RMT and credit Sellers. Since the activity is not something that the game needs, changing it to be punishable is IMO in the best interest of both, the economy and the game in general.

[xxSHOONYxx]

13 minutes ago, Balameb said:

Because a good portion of it (large portion) mutated and is currently supporting on the side some things that are against the ToS like RMT and credit Sellers.

Could be said the same about everything. You can buy credits or the item that you want since websites also sell items that are on the CM. So should trading/mailing be eliminated and against the tos too?

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

2 hours ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

That is usually jealousy in my experience, either not good enough to be able to sell it or upset that someone can buy what it took months for others to get. Which goes back to a previos point that if the achievement would be hard it wouldn't be able to be sold. 
And as long as anything is easy and some lazy people want it there will always be a place for sales. 

That's not Jealously, that's calling out cheating and lame ass people.

You saying that all NiM operations are easy is just you bragging. They're not all easy.

I'm sure your a very good player, I don't doubt that for a minute. But many people have done NiM operations, RM HM, and for it's time,  TOS HM/Ranagers HM, referred to back than as 'Hardmare', and they don't all think it's easy, so I'm really not all that interested in that sort of smack. You wanna say everyone else is bad, go for it.

You wanna try and defend that practice of Sales runs, that really tells me all I need to know. I don't have any respect for anyone that does it, advocates it, or defends it.

And if you ask me, and this is just my opinion, no real raider would defend that lame ass horse crap.

You think that's okay? That's a you problem, not a me problem.

I stand by everything I said.

Edited July 13, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Balameb]

35 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Could be said the same about everything. You can buy credits or the item that you want since websites also sell items that are on the CM. So should trading/mailing be eliminated and against the tos too?

Trading is a key component of the game and its economy. Selling runs is not. Game do not need sale runs to sale CM items (at one point maybe it did, but current sale runs no longer provide indirect extra sales to CM). Also game don't need sale runs to have people doing MM/NiM, might be less players? probably, the ones leaving will not be missed.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Balameb

[OlBuzzard]

I'm not quite sure how we went from unjust taxation to this part of the discussion (Yeah ..  I get it ... credits / in game currency ... other forms of pay-offs).

The simple fact is that so much of life (and how we play games) is a matter of choice.  IN another game I'm a part of a guild:  mostly due to my granddaughter.  From time to time they help the old man get through mythic dungeons ... and some of the others.  I still don't do raids (to me they are still long and boring).  Guilds are all about helping each other.  I get that!  It makes sense.

Paying to get through parts of this game ???  Seriously?  Someone has turned the game into a money-making proposition.  It's just that simple.  That tells me something about those who are engaged in such activities (like it or not).  I'm quite certain that a number of us find such things as totally unethical.  And to be perfectly honest ... there are a LOT of people who have no problem with just about any form of "work around" (for lack of a better term) ... in order to get something out of this game.  It is unlikely that anything I will ever say will change their mind.  IMO that still does not excuse what is taking place.  Does this exercise violate TOS?  Yes or no?  That simple.

People will have to make up their own mind the path they choose to walk.  And while a larger number of people who would prefer to think of themselves as REAL GAMERS think of someone like me as a looser  or weak ... That's their choice.  It's unlikely I'll ever change their mind.

As the old saying goes "A man convinced against his will ... is of the same opinion still!"  

I may not be as good as the next player ... but I know where I stand in this life!  And, frankly I have no intentions of changing anything now!