'Premades'

[farren_whyde]

This anti-premade argument. So tiresome. When people say 'Premades ruin PvP', what they actually mean is 'LOSING to premades ruins PvP for ME'. And in some cases, 'Why can't I be in a premade like that?' And when people say 'premade' a lot of the time they really mean 'group'.

So then the crusade to banish, separate, remove and ignore them starts. People moaning about premades never mention the times when they have a good premade on THEIR team that help THEM win the match/round, by virtue of high, co-ordinated dps, tactical nous and experience. They never, ever say that.

Sometimes it's 'Premades ruin PvP' because they ignore objectives. I've moaned about this myself. A lot of people have. You get your win/loss, then move on and hope for a match to come along that you enjoy. Rough with the smooth.

Premades don't ruin anything. They only can make it frustrating/challenging/easy/hard/fun/not fun. Delete as appropriate.

And they're never going away. Which is both good and bad. 

From a certain point of view.

[HeatRacer]

3 hours ago, farren_whyde said:

Sometimes it's 'Premades ruin PvP' because they ignore objectives.

You forget the other half of that: people get mad at premades for ignoring objectives, AND also get mad at premades for taking and winning them too! 🤷‍♂️

[Samcuu]

Bioware has the numbers. If there was some massive upheaval and pvp'ers were quitting en masse, they would probably act. I don't think they've probably seen much drop off from the reg wz population. If the ranked community is saying they think a good chunk quit then I'm inclined to believe it, but then you get into the discussion of how big exactly even was the ranked population it had been dwindling for years. I don't see a big difference in queue times or pvp instances from 6.0 to 7.0 but then again that's anectodatal. 

Small vocal minority of ppl who throw their toys out the pram when it comes to premades. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Samcuu

[Sappharan]

4 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Bioware has the numbers. If there was some massive upheaval and pvp'ers were quitting en masse, they would probably act. I don't think they've probably seen much drop off from the reg wz population. If the ranked community is saying they think a good chunk quit then I'm inclined to believe it, but then you get into the discussion of how big exactly even was the ranked population it had been dwindling for years. I don't see a big difference in queue times or pvp instances from 6.0 to 7.0 but then again that's anectodatal. 

Small vocal minority of ppl who throw their toys out the pram when it comes to premades. 

It doesn't matter how many play PvP.  It matters how many have stopped paying as a result. 

 

I have.

[ZUHFB]

4 hours ago, Samcuu said:

If the ranked community is saying they think a good chunk quit then I'm inclined to believe it, but then you get into the discussion of how big exactly even was the ranked population it had been dwindling for years

Look, how would you know that. You don't even know how many people played it, so how can you know if it was in decline??? And it wasn't even, e.g. S13 was an increase for sure.

Bioware got rid of ranked because they didn't know how to handle combat styles and leaderboard. E.g: you play operative/sniper character to 1700, now you switch to sniper and you're still 1700? Can you now earn Top3 sniper rewards? That is why ranked got deleted.

[ZUHFB]

Just now, Sappharan said:

It doesn't matter how many play PvP.  It matters how many have stopped paying as a result. 

 

I have.

#metoo

[Nee-Elder]

20 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

Bioware got rid of ranked because they didn't know how to handle combat styles and leaderboard. E.g: you play operative/sniper character to 1700, now you switch to sniper and you're still 1700? Can you now earn Top3 sniper rewards? That is why ranked got deleted.

Finally someone speaks more of the development truth.

If only BIOWARE had foreseen such collateral consequences to their own unnecessary vanity project, or at least admitted as such post-haste, then perhaps we wouldn't be where we are now.

( * i was often curious what would happen if Ranked & Regs was merged , in some extra form or bracket, but i never thought BioWare would throw the coded baby out with the 7.0 bathwater .   Plus, imo ,  combat styles never should've been done in the first place since we have ALTs )

Edited May 24, 2023 by Nee-Elder

[Samcuu]

44 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

Look, how would you know that. You don't even know how many people played it, so how can you know if it was in decline??? And it wasn't even, e.g. S13 was an increase for sure.

Bioware got rid of ranked because they didn't know how to handle combat styles and leaderboard. E.g: you play operative/sniper character to 1700, now you switch to sniper and you're still 1700? Can you now earn Top3 sniper rewards? That is why ranked got deleted.

Like I said my comment was anectodatal. I havent played solo ranked since season 5. I played granked quite a lot in season 9 and it was difficult to get matches and even harder to see more than a few teams queuing. Granted that was on SS which is a low pop server so, that probably played into it.

Anyways like I said bioware has the numbers, so logical assumption is that they'd not do away with a wildly popular game mode. To avoid the leaderboard issue couldn't they have just have added the caveat that whatever combat style u decide to play ranked with that your rating is locked in on that particular combat style? I'm sure they could have coded it that way. 

48 minutes ago, Sappharan said:

5 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Bioware has the numbers. If there was some massive upheaval and pvp'ers were quitting en masse, they would probably act. I don't think they've probably seen much drop off from the reg wz population. If the ranked community is saying they think a good chunk quit then I'm inclined to believe it, but then you get into the discussion of how big exactly even was the ranked population it had been dwindling for years. I don't see a big difference in queue times or pvp instances from 6.0 to 7.0 but then again that's anectodatal. 

Small vocal minority of ppl who throw their toys out the pram when it comes to premades. 

Expand  

It doesn't matter how many play PvP.  It matters how many have stopped paying as a result. 

 

I have.

The seasons is working to bring in new players tho. I'm in several conquest guilds who pvp regularly now who weren't doing so before. And not just for the rewards either several ppl have picked it up and enjoy it. 

[TrixxieTriss]

11 hours ago, farren_whyde said:

This anti-premade argument. So tiresome. When people say 'Premades ruin PvP', what they actually mean is 'LOSING to premades ruins PvP for ME'. And in some cases, 'Why can't I be in a premade like that?' And when people say 'premade' a lot of the time they really mean 'group'.

So then the crusade to banish, separate, remove and ignore them starts. People moaning about premades never mention the times when they have a good premade on THEIR team that help THEM win the match/round, by virtue of high, co-ordinated dps, tactical nous and experience. They never, ever say that.

Sometimes it's 'Premades ruin PvP' because they ignore objectives. I've moaned about this myself. A lot of people have. You get your win/loss, then move on and hope for a match to come along that you enjoy. Rough with the smooth.

Premades don't ruin anything. They only can make it frustrating/challenging/easy/hard/fun/not fun. Delete as appropriate.

And they're never going away. Which is both good and bad. 

From a certain point of view.

Hardly anyone discussing the pre-made situation is suggesting BioWare remove them from the game. 

So why are you trying to paint the picture that people who have a problem with premades want to take something from you.

Why are you trying to deride them and make out that its envy or lack of skill? If this was a genuine post, you wouldn’t be trying to deride solo players. 
We can see how disingenuous this argument is because premades do ruin many players experience in PvP.

This seems to be just another thread to try & attack solo players who are only asking BioWare for some agency to play the game the way they want under a fair & equable system so they can also enjoy PvP. Aren’t there already enough threads discussing this topic already?
 

1. We are not asking BioWare to remove premades/groups

2. We are asking for a solo only option & a seperate or combined pre-made option 

3. The solo only option could be setup in 3 different ways.

a) Solo only queue.

b) An opt in/out toggle in the current queue that gives solo players a choice wether they are put with premades/groups

c) BioWare make the matchmaking system work properly so that solo players & groups aren’t put against each other (this is the least viable & least popular idea with solo players because BioWare have been promising this for 11 years & can’t get it to work) 

This situation is only dividing the community more & driving more veterans & new players alike from PvP. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

59 minutes ago, Sappharan said:

It doesn't matter how many play PvP.  It matters how many have stopped paying as a result. 

 

I have.

Exactly this 👆ME TOO

Seasons has obviously brought an influx of new people into PvP. Which is what it was designed to do.

But the changes to the premade size limits & the terrible matchmaking is driving many veterans from the community.

It is also not a pleasant experience for new pvpers who were attracted to the seasons rewards. Most of these people aren’t having fun & will never learn to play properly or love PvP like those of us veterans who are leaving. 

Sure, BioWare is probably looking at data that says PvP has lots of people playing it since seasons started. But are they deep diving to find out how many veteran pvpers are leaving & how many new pvpers are staying for the long haul 🤷🏻‍♀️. I’m guessing they aren’t or something would have already happened to stop us. 

What I believe will happen if BioWare don’t make some changes before season 3, is that more & more veterans will leave & less & less new pvpers will continue. By season 4, if nothing changes, the only people left pvping with be the PvP rust-ons (that will go down with the ship) & a slowly diminishing turnstile of new PvPers coming & going faster because they’re only there for the rewards.

Overall Community skill will continue to degrade & the queue times will get longer & longer. The skill gaps will get wider & the community will actually become more toxic than ranked ever was or was perceived to be. 

[StrikePrice]

19 hours ago, farren_whyde said:

This anti-premade argument. So tiresome. When people say 'Premades ruin PvP', what they actually mean is 'LOSING to premades ruins PvP for ME'. And in some cases, 'Why can't I be in a premade like that?' And when people say 'premade' a lot of the time they really mean 'group'.

So then the crusade to banish, separate, remove and ignore them starts. People moaning about premades never mention the times when they have a good premade on THEIR team that help THEM win the match/round, by virtue of high, co-ordinated dps, tactical nous and experience. They never, ever say that.

Sometimes it's 'Premades ruin PvP' because they ignore objectives. I've moaned about this myself. A lot of people have. You get your win/loss, then move on and hope for a match to come along that you enjoy. Rough with the smooth.

Premades don't ruin anything. They only can make it frustrating/challenging/easy/hard/fun/not fun. Delete as appropriate.

And they're never going away. Which is both good and bad. 

From a certain point of view.

This is the typical coward attitude. Can't PvP without a massive advantage. Premades don't ruin anything. But they should go up against other premades. It's a lovely straw man you've constructed, but no one is suggesting premades go away. People are suggesting that matches be as fair as possible and to add to the game mechanics that allow more fair matchmaking. 

 

14 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Bioware has the numbers. If there was some massive upheaval and pvp'ers were quitting en masse, they would probably act. I don't think they've probably seen much drop off from the reg wz population. If the ranked community is saying they think a good chunk quit then I'm inclined to believe it, but then you get into the discussion of how big exactly even was the ranked population it had been dwindling for years. I don't see a big difference in queue times or pvp instances from 6.0 to 7.0 but then again that's anectodatal. 

Small vocal minority of ppl who throw their toys out the pram when it comes to premades. 

I disagree. I believe they want PvP to end and are doing everything they can to make the numbers as small as possible so they can stop supporting it.  But I understand the position of the endlessly pro-BW shills. I just disagree with it.

Everyone knows that if there was a vote, it would be 90-10 in favor of a solo queue. You are the small, vocal minority. Not us. And you know it. 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by StrikePrice

[Samcuu]

1 hour ago, StrikePrice said:

21 hours ago, farren_whyde said:

This anti-premade argument. So tiresome. When people say 'Premades ruin PvP', what they actually mean is 'LOSING to premades ruins PvP for ME'. And in some cases, 'Why can't I be in a premade like that?' And when people say 'premade' a lot of the time they really mean 'group'.

So then the crusade to banish, separate, remove and ignore them starts. People moaning about premades never mention the times when they have a good premade on THEIR team that help THEM win the match/round, by virtue of high, co-ordinated dps, tactical nous and experience. They never, ever say that.

Sometimes it's 'Premades ruin PvP' because they ignore objectives. I've moaned about this myself. A lot of people have. You get your win/loss, then move on and hope for a match to come along that you enjoy. Rough with the smooth.

Premades don't ruin anything. They only can make it frustrating/challenging/easy/hard/fun/not fun. Delete as appropriate.

And they're never going away. Which is both good and bad. 

From a certain point of view.

Expand  

This is the typical coward attitude. Can't PvP without a massive advantage. Premades don't ruin anything. But they should go up against other premades. It's a lovely straw man you've constructed, but no one is suggesting premades go away. People are suggesting that matches be as fair as possible and to add to the game mechanics that allow more fair matchmaking. 

 

15 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Bioware has the numbers. If there was some massive upheaval and pvp'ers were quitting en masse, they would probably act. I don't think they've probably seen much drop off from the reg wz population. If the ranked community is saying they think a good chunk quit then I'm inclined to believe it, but then you get into the discussion of how big exactly even was the ranked population it had been dwindling for years. I don't see a big difference in queue times or pvp instances from 6.0 to 7.0 but then again that's anectodatal. 

Small vocal minority of ppl who throw their toys out the pram when it comes to premades. 

Expand  

I disagree. I believe they want PvP to end and are doing everything they can to make the numbers as small as possible so they can stop supporting it.  But I understand the position of the endlessly pro-BW shills. I just disagree with it.

When I have time to log in and play all I do is pvp, I stopped playing ranked a while ago due to several things but one of them being time restraints on how much I can play every week. So I've been a reg star for some time now. The pvp community that exists is comprised of many of the same ppl I've seen over the years. Reg stars were always there even when Ranked existed. Getting rid of ranked has hardly changed warzones, I see no difference whatsoever. These ppl were playing pvp as their main activity even when there were no rewards. Your hypothesis that they are trying to destroy pvp makes zero sense. The base of the community exists and was there even when there was zero incentive to play. They've added seasons with a reward track and even made ranked rewards accessible to those players who were getting nothing previously. In my experience I've seen other guilds I'm in (solely for conquest rewards) start to pvp on a regular basis. Logic would dictate here that your assumptions about some grand scheme by bioware to drive away pvp'ers is absolutely false. 

[StrikePrice]

7 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

When I have time to log in and play all I do is pvp, I stopped playing ranked a while ago due to several things but one of them being time restraints on how much I can play every week. So I've been a reg star for some time now. The pvp community that exists is comprised of many of the same ppl I've seen over the years. Reg stars were always there even when Ranked existed. Getting rid of ranked has hardly changed warzones, I see no difference whatsoever. These ppl were playing pvp as their main activity even when there were no rewards. Your hypothesis that they are trying to destroy pvp makes zero sense. The base of the community exists and was there even when there was zero incentive to play. They've added seasons with a reward track and even made ranked rewards accessible to those players who were getting nothing previously. In my experience I've seen other guilds I'm in (solely for conquest rewards) start to pvp on a regular basis. Logic would dictate here that your assumptions about some grand scheme by bioware to drive away pvp'ers is absolutely false. 

It's not a grand scheme. They put the least amount of effort possible into PvP while wishing it would go away. Compare PvP and launch and compare it today. Now compare PvE today as against launch. I would say they have put in approximately 0.0000001% of the effort into PvP they have put into PvE. It's just a nagging left-over that they wish would go away. And the way the treat it, it shows. 

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, StrikePrice said:

I disagree. I believe they want PvP to end and are doing everything they can to make the numbers as small as possible so they can stop supporting it.  But I understand the position of the endlessly pro-BW shills. I just disagree with it.

I think you know I’m anything but a BioWare shill. But your logic is flawed.

BioWare wouldn’t be spending the time, money & resources on seasons & making PvP changes if they planned to end PvP. From a business perspective it makes no sense. BioWare would just shut PvP down if that was their aim because it would save them money. 

[farren_whyde]

14 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Hardly anyone discussing the pre-made situation is suggesting BioWare remove them from the game. 

So why are you trying to paint the picture that people who have a problem with premades want to take something from you.

Why are you trying to deride them and make out that its envy or lack of skill? If this was a genuine post, you wouldn’t be trying to deride solo players. 
We can see how disingenuous this argument is because premades do ruin many players experience in PvP.

This seems to be just another thread to try & attack solo players who are only asking BioWare for some agency to play the game the way they want under a fair & equable system so they can also enjoy PvP. Aren’t there already enough threads discussing this topic already?
 

1. We are not asking BioWare to remove premades/groups

2. We are asking for a solo only option & a seperate or combined pre-made option 

3. The solo only option could be setup in 3 different ways.

a) Solo only queue.

b) An opt in/out toggle in the current queue that gives solo players a choice wether they are put with premades/groups

c) BioWare make the matchmaking system work properly so that solo players & groups aren’t put against each other (this is the least viable & least popular idea with solo players because BioWare have been promising this for 11 years & can’t get it to work) 

This situation is only dividing the community more & driving more veterans & new players alike from PvP. 

I'm not deriding anyone, solo players or premades. There is no derision (scorn, mocking etc) in my post at all. I just said the anti-premade argument is tiresome. And never said 'they' want to remove them from the game. 'They' want to remove premades from THEIR game, by wanting separate queues. BIG difference.

So it's a genuine post. You're just reframing it and attaching your own grievances to it. Enough spin, please.

Also, never said anything about lack of skill. And there are bound to be players are envious they're not part of the groups they rail against - that's life, people get envious and jealous of stuff, no matter how petty.

It 'seems' to be another post attacking solo players? Well, might 'seem' it to you, but it's not. I'm a solo player most of the time myself. Why would I 'attack' myself? I enjoy PvP solo or in a group of two or more... I'm not pro-premades/groups and I'm not anti-soloqueuers. I'm pro-PvP. And that allows everyone to play as they want.

It IS a fair and EQUITABLE (I think that's what you meant) system - you queue solo, or as a group. Those are the available options for EVERYONE - it's fair! Totally, completely, unequivocally FAIR.

You should try queuing as a group, maybe? It's fun to play WITH and AGAINST other players.

I've read your posts. Stop trying to divide people into groups that suit YOUR preferences, perhaps?

Have you ever considered that warzones/arenas composed entirely of solo players could be inexorably dull, frustrating and, you know... not fun? And, even better, the current system actually allows for that possibility! So every permutation is catered for! The randomness makes it exciting, fun. Box of chocolates, and all that.

You don't want to be against premades because you might lose/get focused/steamrolled/whatever. You don't want premades on your side because they ignore objectives on occasion.

You probably need to accept that going against people who have an advantage over you isn't unique to PvP in this game. It's a reflection of how people behave in life.  Well, it 'seems' like that to me, and a lot of others on here.

Edited May 24, 2023 by farren_whyde

[farren_whyde]

15 hours ago, Sappharan said:

It doesn't matter how many play PvP.  It matters how many have stopped paying as a result. 

 

I have.

Paying or playing?

[farren_whyde]

6 hours ago, StrikePrice said:

This is the typical coward attitude. Can't PvP without a massive advantage. Premades don't ruin anything. But they should go up against other premades. It's a lovely straw man you've constructed, but no one is suggesting premades go away. People are suggesting that matches be as fair as possible and to add to the game mechanics that allow more fair matchmaking. 

How is that a cowardly attitude? You are suggesting go premades go away - go away from how you want to play.

[AwesomeTacoCat]

16 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Look, how would you know that. You don't even know how many people played it, so how can you know if it was in decline??? And it wasn't even, e.g. S13 was an increase for sure.

Bioware got rid of ranked because they didn't know how to handle combat styles and leaderboard. E.g: you play operative/sniper character to 1700, now you switch to sniper and you're still 1700? Can you now earn Top3 sniper rewards? That is why ranked got deleted.

They have separate battles records per character lol they could easily do that for ranked as well it’s extraordinarily simple…

[Samcuu]

33 minutes ago, AwesomeTacoCat said:

They have separate battles records per character lol they could easily do that for ranked as well it’s extraordinarily simple…

I'm no game developer but yeah I completely forgot about how they have a drop down menu that allows you to view ur battle record on your different combat styles lol. Seems pretty evident as to why ranked doesn't exist anymore imo. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Samcuu

[steveerkcanjerk]

19 hours ago, Sappharan said:

It doesn't matter how many play PvP.  It matters how many have stopped paying as a result. 

 

I have.

That is how businesses work yes. But The point he is making is that people didn't leave the queue in mass and nor did they stop paying. I doubt majority of players were like ewww i get rewarded for participating yuck I am so done. Especially in a system where there literally weren't any rewards for more then half a decade. So yeah, you have every right to spend your money how you want and I am pretty sure you have to be subbed to post here unless that changed but doubt it. But as someone who queues for both arenas and warzones the queues are doing just fine on SF. 

[Sappharan]

22 minutes ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

I am pretty sure you have to be subbed to post here unless that changed but doubt it.

Dunno what to tell you.  😉

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

I am pretty sure you have to be subbed to post here unless that changed but doubt it.

They have changed it. They just haven’t made a public announcement about it. I’ve been unsubbed for months now & I know at least a few others are the same, so I know it’s not just me still able to post.  

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

But as someone who queues for both arenas and warzones the queues are doing just fine on SF. 

From the anecdotal evidence I’ve seen posted on the forums, reddit & twitter, only SF & DM are doing ok during prime times. SS & the language servers are having issues. But even SF is having issues during parts of the day when I would play & you guys would be asleep.

Which is surprising considering there are now more people playing swtor on Steam than at anytime in the last 16 months. The people playing swtor are actually 64% more than what they were during season 1. Which means the queues would probably be close to dead across the whole game (including SF & DM) if they had the same amount of people playing swtor as they did in season 1.

To me that shows seasons isn’t as popular as it should be. And a lot of that has to do with BioWare driving solo players out of PvP with premades & also ranked players away. I wonder how many PvP subscribers they’ve actually lost? I personally know of 16 just here on the forums & my family who’ve unsubbed over this. And considering you don’t even need to be subbed anymore to PvP, I’m assuming they lost a lot more subs. 

Mark my words, season 3 & 4 will continue to bleed PvPers if they don’t make changes to the premade & matchmaking situation.

Edited May 25, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

7 hours ago, farren_whyde said:

Paying or playing?

Definitely Paying & maybe playing 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Sappharan]

6 hours ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

...people didn't leave the queue in mass...

en masse