PTS: Class Balance Changes Feedback

[JackieKo]

Players can provide their feedback for their experiences on the Class Balance Changes for 7.3 Be sure to read the initial post here for a full understanding of the changes coming with the next update. 

• Do the changes to combat styles create any friction in your rotation? Is so, can you try to identify the pain points?
• Does your combat style still feel fun after these changes?
• Do you still feel your combat style is competitive in various game modes after these changes?
• [Annihilation Marauders / Watchman Sentinel] Does the minor change to rage generation have a positive, negative or neutral effect on your rotation? Why or why not?
• [Mercenary / Commando] Does the redesign of the Random Charge Legendary (now called “Overcharged Cells”) have a positive, negative or neutral effect on your rotation? Why or why not?
• Have you run into any bugs? If so, please offer step by step details so we may be able to reproduce your experience. 
• Is there any other general feedback you would like to share? 
   

[Gibonski]

Hello Dev team. I am a Mercenary at heart and have always enjoyed the class/ combat style now. Ever since forever I played both dps specs and dabbled into healing on occasion. I have one big problem with one of the specs. Yes, you guessed it. 

Arsenal is in a poor state. I understand why you wouldnt buff it's damage. Because of pvp and how op it would become to delete players with few skills. Or maybe you just hate it because reasons... I don't care, I would love to see it perform decent again. There are 2 ways to go around the problem.  

 

1. The easy way is to do what world of Warcraft is doing when class is underperforming in pve. Make this buff, whether it's 3/ 5 percent only apply to pve by implementing; "Does not apply in pvp/warzones/ arenas". This is an easy solution that will allow us to enjoy pumping numbers on bosses as it should be.

2. Redesign the combat style, make drastic changes to the way it's played.

I know Arsenal is a burst dps spec, but why would you add ticking dot to it in form of a priming shot and then another ability tick it's damage. Doesn't that sound awful lot like dirty fighting/ virulence? If you chosen this path, get heat signature to tick as well, or another dot. Maybe instead of making tracer missile instant, make priming shot apply rail signature, to make rail shot hit even harder and then disappear after you used it, to be re applied in another cycle. 

How about making it full burst with spamming that tracer missile to death, heatseeker hitting like a truck alongside rail shot with another cool down adding even better dps window.

Maybe heat signature can be a stacking debuff to 10 and when you hit it with heatseeker at so many stacks it explodes hitting everything around in 10m radius.  

Another good idea would be to buff damage in in 80%+ health of the boss and under 30%. This way you would have 2 execute phases and will make up for lost sustain along the way. 

The random charge is not affecting the damage dealt. Extension on supercharged gas does not affect the damage dealt. The extra charge on priming shot makes this class even less fun and gathering those stacks are slower. Please combat designers/ class designers read this and speak to us, communicate.

I have seen people make so many good ideas on how to improve this style, making it great again, or at least competitive with the others.

 

I implore, make it less garbage, so that Arsenal enthusiasts can elevate it to the highest potential possible and casuals can still spam abilities like crazy and think they are fire. 

 

May the force be with you

[DougTheNoob]

Mercs are waaaaay too slow in pvp, where u probably gonna have to choose the reflect over rocket out,leaving us  just a hydraulic with 45 secs which makes our class the slowest class atm in game. We cant chase nor run from anyone most of the time. In a game mode full of slows,roots and stuns,the way you devs keep nerfing merc's mobility is turning the class in a pretty obvious and easy target. Right now its just "eat +or- 1500 dmg and die" situation,like most of the time in arena matches,unless the other team isnt decent. 

My suggestion: Either make our hydraulic have the same effect and cd PT'S hydraulic have or make rocket out not a choice,but standard skill again. That wont change anything in pve and will help improve merc's mobility in pvp. Our dps is pretty average, we have too little cc  and our dcds are good ( but very avoidable ) .Unfortunatly only good dcds with nearly no mobility is just not enough to compete against other classes with so many tools and tricks.

Edited May 6, 2023 by DougTheNoob

[Terminator_L]

Buff Melee classes, specially Deception, reward players for playing risky and high APM sets.
Nerf sniper and sorcs, simple ranged class with minimal motor skills required to play at high level shouldn't be rewarded even more damage than players who put into a more risky and demanding playstyle. 

[SentinalMasterWW]

27 minutes ago, Terminator_L said:

Buff Melee classes, specially Deception, reward players for playing risky and high APM sets.

I Politely Disagree, Deception is one of the top tier specs in PVP right now, especially arenas. Hatred Sins do need a buff for PVP, but they are great at PVE. The only Melee ones right now that could use a buff would probably be Rage/Focus and Concealment/Scrapper. Deception also has the potential of having 3 stuns including Meze. 

29 minutes ago, Terminator_L said:

Nerf sniper and sorcs, simple ranged class with minimal motor skills required to play at high level shouldn't be rewarded even more damage than players who put into a more risky and demanding playstyle. 

Disagree Heavily here, Madness Sorc I can see needing nerfs. But Snipers are actually currently Underperforming, They have no Recovery, Are terrible to bring in 4v4's, and in the case of Marksman/Sharpshooter have terrible DMG output. 

Ionic Discharge is really the only thing that needs nerfing for the sniper specs. 

Also Snipers require a very particular playstyle of constantly Repositioning to stay alive in PVP and utilizing their abilities correctly. 

[LukasLukasLukas]

Sniper:

1. Heal in cover works as per tooltip - will probably become go to skill for WZ; for Arenas Over-Prepared gonna be a BiS choice - self heal doesnt make that kind of difference; does make difference in PvE; would you consider changing it to heal on roll i.e. roll is available every 20s which would give us 30% heal on roll as per current 3% every 2s? End effect the same, but more impactfull

2. Knocback on AOE is just a pure joke especially for MM/SharpShooter - for this spec, this change is like beating dead horse, just remove this spec for now it will be easier. Lots of ppl are recomending to put it into either Seek Cover skill or Pillbox Sniper as its more related to PvP and from explanation done by Dev it was removed due to PvE "complaints"

3. Targeted Ambush / Hotshot - actually a good change; it does play a bit smoother and allow for some nice combo with B-0 tactical so...good job!

 

4. Corrosive Refund / Scrounging has been redesigned. It now causes Corrosive Grenade / Shrap Bomb to refund 2 energy each time it ticks - no changes to energy managment from what I saw

Edited May 8, 2023 by LukasLukasLukas

[Evolen]

Is there a vendor to claim tech frags so I can test the new AP tactical?

[Dekibra]

2 hours ago, Evolen said:

Is there a vendor to claim tech frags so I can test the new AP tactical?

The new landing area on Voss has a leveling thing, when you click it, it gives out CQ comms, TFs and credits

[meddani]

speaking of the AP tactical...it's buggy, it doesn't buff energy burst

edit: nvmd lol

Edited May 11, 2023 by meddani

[DougTheNoob]

MERCS NEED BETTER MOBILITY! Dont make us wait a year to see the fix we need for this class. Its just unbearable right now.

[klizilii]

On 5/10/2023 at 8:07 AM, meddani said:

speaking of the AP tactical...it's buggy, it doesn't buff energy burst

Did you see the recent dev post on changes to the tactical?

[meddani]

1 hour ago, klizilii said:

Did you see the recent dev post on changes to the tactical?

yes, btw thanks for reminding me to edit my comment lol

[Rubmon]

Hello Devs

For the last 5 years I have mainly played commando gunnery, this class/spec used to be comparable with all other DPS classes, and used to be able to compete with my other guild mates (an active guild that runs operations 5 days a week) sadly this spec has slowly lost damage output since release 4.0 and beon. Currently this class/spec is considered by the community as the step child of the game, cause of it’s lowest damage output of all classes.

In the last 6 months I have given up in this class because of what is been mentioned above and moved on to try 2 different classes. I have chosen guardian vigilance and sage balance, while I have never imagine myself playing a melee, I was amazed as to how high of output I was able to obtain with guardian vigilance, 26 to 26.5k on a single boss target. I have also played sage and averaging 25 to 25.5k damage over the same single boss targets. This is a big improvement over the 22 to 23k best damage I ever got with my commando/gunnery over the same single boss targets.

I was excited to hear that commando gunnery was one of the class/specs being looked on for class adjustment. Sadly to report, the changes being made do not yield a whole lot of difference that would entice me to go back to gunnery anytime soon, at least until we are serious about making this a fun class to play with again.

I downloaded the test server and ran 3, 5-minute tests in the first update early this week, I have now run a second 3, 5-minute tests on the Ops dummy. My overall results: My first 3, 5-minute tests yielded 24 to 24.5k damage, meaning the overall damage was never stable always jumped between the 2 damage points. My result in the 3, 5 minutes tests ran this morning was a bit tighter between damage points, it was between 24.5 and 24.56. As far as damage increase, I see hardly any difference, is pretty much the same as what it is in live servers right now.

My commando Gunnery test is done with 336 gear and accessories fully augmented, with 286 rated augments.

Merc Arsenal, the mirror spec from imperial side has the same issues as posted by Givonski above.

Just fyi, tests were done on an Ops dummy, obviously this damage is the highest you could possibly get, vs a single target boss, where you have to be constantly moving. Obviously, your final damage output is dependent of how well you can perform your rotation on the move when fighting a single boss.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Rubmon
editing

[Flexgoliath]

I am not sure how often Devs actually pay attention to forum posts in this game but as many others have stated, and numerous threads in the class forums have stated... Gunnery/Arsenal is monstrously behind in PVE dps.  I am not sure if SWTOR devs look at parsley or not to get somewhat decent idea of where classes are at in a vacuum but they should be to some extent. It has been the worst or next to the worst spec for a long time in PVE.  It can complete content yes, but even casual pugs and groups kick often because they think you are trolling.  You can complete all content in the game with 4 tanks or 4 healers too doesnt mean its good.  Please consider some sort of plan to actually increase the dps for this spec.  Everyone understands its strong in many PVP scenarios but there has to be some way to increase its damage in PVE from dumpster tier while not breaking the ceiling in PVP.

Thanks for reading.

[SentinalMasterWW]

I agree, Gunnery Commando & or Arsenal Mercenary need a buff. They have been performing very poorly if we are just taking PVE. Like they are okay if you are just blowing through the Story Content, But they are really bad for say Master Mode flashpoints or even Operations. 

They Lack in sustained DMG, or just even burst DMG in general. 

The other issue is Mobility, Hold the line/ Hydraulic Overrides, is just to short, the Speed boost bonus is meh, and it has a long Cooldown. Propulsion Round would be nice if it was added back as a mainline, but right now no one is going to take it over Echoing Deterrence a key Defensive for peeps in both PVE and especially PVP. 

If we are talking PVP, 

Gunnery is just meh, It's tied between it and Marksman for lowest DMG in PVP. Marksman has more utility though, Entrench, and can pop a chunky burst if the stars align. Sniper also just has a long engagement Distance, Mercs/Commandos usually have to be in Melee Range to do most of their attacks, which leads to them getting Tossed around and or CC'd to death. 

Gunnery Commando wasn't Top tier in 6.0. but the Apex Predator Set made it actually a pretty Decent Spec, alongside Amplifiers for increased armor Penetration and you had a strong Anti-Armor Spec.

 

[Rubmon]

5 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

I agree, Gunnery Commando & or Arsenal Mercenary need a buff. They have been performing very poorly if we are just taking PVE. Like they are okay if you are just blowing through the Story Content, But they are really bad for say Master Mode flashpoints or even Operations. 

They Lack in sustained DMG, or just even burst DMG in general. 

The other issue is Mobility, Hold the line/ Hydraulic Overrides, is just to short, the Speed boost bonus is meh, and it has a long Cooldown. Propulsion Round would be nice if it was added back as a mainline, but right now no one is going to take it over Echoing Deterrence a key Defensive for peeps in both PVE and especially PVP. 

If we are talking PVP, 

Gunnery is just meh, It's tied between it and Marksman for lowest DMG in PVP. Marksman has more utility though, Entrench, and can pop a chunky burst if the stars align. Sniper also just has a long engagement Distance, Mercs/Commandos usually have to be in Melee Range to do most of their attacks, which leads to them getting Tossed around and or CC'd to death. 

Gunnery Commando wasn't Top tier in 6.0. but the Apex Predator Set made it actually a pretty Decent Spec, alongside Amplifiers for increased armor Penetration and you had a strong Anti-Armor Spec.

 

Actually, mobility is about the only thing gunnery has going for itself. When choosing force march in your ability tree, all but one ability can be used on the move, when using standard rotation.

[Exocor]

So I have tested the changes to the AP/Tactics Tactical.

Let's first get the DPS parse values on 10m dummy for other Melee DPS Burst classes. I'm using the tenth best parse in order to get a sample that is executed well, but also not just based on sheer crit luck.

Carnage: 31218

Deception: 30783

Concealment: 30812

Rage: 32294

Vengeance: 31876

Considering that AP/Tactics can get up to 15m range for their core rotational abilities, I'd also like to include ranged DPS classes in that consideration:

Arsenal: 28369

Marskman: 27611

Lightning: 28754

Current AP/Tactics 10th place parse is 28677. I did a very similar parse of 28698 very recently in live state. It still took me a lot of tries to get that high, so we're already in crit luck territory.

I then did one parse on PTS, doing 29769 DPS with current PTS values. With the new tactical, of course after the recent changes. This was completely cold, first try and I already outparsed myself by about 1000 DPS. Putting as much time into it as I did with my live server parse, I would probably be able to squeeze 500 DPS more out of it. That would put as at about 30200 DPS.

With that number we would still be below any other Melee Burst class (600 DPS below Deception and Concealment), but also way above any ranged DPS class (about 1500 DPS above Lightning).

I think that we are at a good spot with that. AP is still a Melee class and should perform better as Lightning, while at the same time it is much more dynamic than all other Melee Specs, including even Pyrotech (10th place 31117 DPS, ~900 DPS more than my hypothetical AP parse), so it should obviously parse below those. So I also agree with the balance team that the previous buff was a bit too much and the changes made is putting AP/Tactics into a better place overall.

I'd also like to defend the Devs intentions of buffing the class in general: AP is currently in a difficult spot in PvE. In most PvE encounters where you need a Powertech to play mechanics (sonic rebounder and hydraulic overrides), you would take a Pyrotech these days. Even for Ignite Core in Scyva Master Mode, or for Turrets in Nahut Master Mode you take a Pyro because it's doing more or at least equal burst damage under Explosive Fuel in the time window that you need to do that damage compared to AP, while also doing more sustained damage in the overall boss fight and additionally coming with more survivability (Kolto Damage Reduction and Cooldown Reduction). This change will put AP back on the table and provides a viable alternative for people like me who only reluctantly rerolled to Pyrotech, but enjoy AP more in general.

So this particular change gets a thumbs up from my side.

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Exocor

[Kazjan]

• Do the changes to combat styles create any friction in your rotation? Is so, can you try to identify the pain points?
  • Yes, You increase damage but not buff tanking or healing so people get 1 or 2 shot. Great balance.!!! 
• Does your combat style still feel fun after these changes?
  • Nope, Game going in the wrong direction
• Do you still feel your combat style is competitive in various game modes after these changes?
  • Nope, might as well take healers and tank out of game. Since we only get DPS changes and increase!
• [Mercenary / Commando] Does the redesign of the Random Charge Legendary (now called “Overcharged Cells”) have a positive, negative or neutral effect on your rotation? Why or why not?
  • Nope, no effect
• Is there any other general feedback you would like to share? 
  • Please listen to your community. I know you didn't really have any decision making in the combat styles but the skills you're trying to buff do not make any difference what so ever because there is no use for the skills like Stealth scan. I'm sorry the other two skill in that path are so much better to use than that skill than trying to lay down a scan that easily avoid when stealth. 

[DougTheNoob]

Reading the comments its clear to me that merc is the class devs should be paying attention this update. It needs a buff NOW. Lets hope they dont ignore our feedback once again.

[Rubmon]

On 5/15/2023 at 3:48 PM, DougTheNoob said:

Reading the comments its clear to me that merc is the class devs should be paying attention this update. It needs a buff NOW. Lets hope they dont ignore our feedback once again.

In reading dev trackers posts, it seems as of Devs are serious about readding out feedback for 7.3 update. Yes for a long while now, both PVE DPS Merc and commando classes are in need of serious help.

I would encourage/challange everyone who like to see the correct changes made in these 2 classes to voice your constructive opinion. I think it be best if they hear it from everyone instead of just a hand full of us.

[Gibonski]

I would love to go on a huge discussion with some of the developers why they have forsaken Arsenal and other burst specs. It's currently in B tier in Pvp along with carnage, lethality. Quintessential ok spec. It has defensives, can pop off sometimes but generally is not something people choose for competitive pvp. 

I believe flat out boost to damage in pvp can break the class and make it too op. 

However, it does not apply to pve whatsoever. In pve we are  a laughing stock of other players, especially on hm+/nim. Unless You are running apex with gold augments for that sunder buff because you are ranged, you are not needed for any other encounter. Because you will never be en pair with the other classes. 

I believe the problem is fundamentally easy to solve. There need to be more people working on balance of classes. 

Bioware does not have resources to keep a group focused purely on balancing every patch and I get that. It's a shame, that ea does not invest more. But it's a reality. 

In this reality though we can still have good performing burst dps in pve,  at least the same level as other classes, because that is what balance is supposed to be. Just put does not apply to pvp when it becomes to ridiculous. 

Developers serious question: Is this something that you can do? Or will the system not allow this? 

We have given feedback, and we deserve answers. 

[DougTheNoob]

@JackieKo hai!
Are we going to get any answers regard to the mercenary/commando situation pretty much everyone here is talking about? Merc/mando needs a way better buff than what you are offering for 7.3 . We cant wait no longer. For years merc/mando is the worst dps in pve,and right now it is a sitting duck in pvp with almost 0 mobility,make them slower than pretty much every class. Its really easy to catch a merc ,and its pretty easy to run from one as well.

Here are some suggestions( for pvp,since its my only interest) :
- Lower hydraulic overrides cooldown from 45 secs to 25 secs ,and buff its effect from 30% to 35% of movement speed .
- Make the old Rocket out a regular base skill again. The 3rd charge when hitted should be a plus only available in tree choice ofc.

- Jet boost should root  affected players instead of slowing em for 50%. The roots would last for 4 secs and would break after 2 secs if the target gets any dmg.

This would be enough to fix mercenary/commando mobility. This would also not affect pve,so its completly doable without breaking pve/pvp balance.

PLEASE, start to listen to your players feedbacks.

Edited May 29, 2023 by DougTheNoob

[DougTheNoob]

@JackieKoI would like to say thanks to you and all the adm and devs team for not hearing our feedbacks once again. Why even ask for feedbacks in the first place if u just ignore everything your players says? Well,congratulations!

Edited June 18, 2023 by DougTheNoob