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I wish we could actually change sides


AJediKnight

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Yes, I can play a "dark" Jedi or a "light" Sith. Yes, I can - in the most clumsy manner imaginable (seriously, how many Sith Lords would really content themselves with being a saboteur?) - undermine my faction from within.

But in Star Wars, the ultimate expression of a fall or redemption is a faction swap - this is as true in the films as it is in the SWTOR. 

  • Vader? Doesn't just become a Sith - immediately signs onto Sidious' Imperial plans and goes child-killing.
  • Tyrannus/Dooku? Same - he is recruited and changes teams.
  • Luke? It is heavily implied in the Bespin Duel that, had he 'joined his father,' he would have instantly converted to an Imperial 'to rule the galaxy as father and son.'

And the same is true in SWTOR. Truly - TRULY - lightsided Sith (we're not talking about practical Sith Lords [which is what, say, the LS Warrior actually plays like]) change sides. Truly dark Jedi join the Sith. And the reason for this is simple: outside of absolutely berserk reasoning (which SWTOR tends to use to cover our behavior - especially when playing as a dark Jedi) and plot armor, the Jedi don't tolerate dark side users in their midst. Similarly, we are informed by the Jaesa subplot that...

Spoiler

... the Sith have teams that actively hunt and kill light-leaning members of their system, simply as a means of self-protection and purification. 

When we encounter a true-blue, light leaning Sith Lord like...

Spoiler

Lord Praven

... the only sane answer is to bring him to the light side; to join the Jedi Order. 

Now that the various classes (though not characters) can play on either side; now that the story is essentially all one narrative recycled 8 times, with very little practical deviation, I think it's time to breach the final wall and just allow Jedi who go dark to fully embrace what they are (if they want to; I'm not talking about obligatory faction swaps); Sith who go light to be able to walk the path of redemption; Smugglers who want to support the Empire to switch to Imperial space, etc., etc.

You can't tell me it's not technically possible, because the "technical" hangups should all be associated with combat styles. A permanent move from one faction to the other should really be as simple as the game creating a 'clone' of our chosen character on the opposing faction, deleting the original, and then associating all story/dialogue moving forward with a character that switched sides. And THAT shouldn't, in of itself, be that much of an ask, because the game is already remembering all of these various choices we made (what companions are alive or dead; whether we chose to be saboteurs, etc.). Irrevocable decisions are nothing new for the game to deal with... and this is an irrevocable decision that has now because the only logical move for more than half of the characters I play. I want to commit fully to a betrayal or redemption - give me that opportunity.

Edited by AJediKnight
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I bet they once had every intention to allow these jumps and write a story to match. At least Knight, Warrior, Agent all have big potential intersections in their story where such leap could have been an option. JS Spoilers below

Spoiler

Imagine what a story it would have been to be a Jedi Knight, get turned to evil by Emperor during JK story. Instead of barely mentioned  5 minutes of Knight doing Emperor's bidding, it'd be off  to Korriban for him. Full on DS stuff play through of Warrior story follows. Then, finally, you get to kill the Emperor a good couple of times during KOTET/KOTFE. Such fulfillment! Quite an arc! Nothing really prevents  you from imagining this is just what Sith Warrior is ig.

 

When it comes to some truly fulfilling way to do this via story , that includes lots of interesting dialogue, related VA work and world in general somehow recognizing what has happened? Such budget ships  have surely sailed long since. Something flimsier though, that'd just assume we accept it is up to players head cannon and RPs to make the story work? I'm sure it'd technically be entirely doable. Some alien delivering their best take on Dweebadoobaduuba language, explaining to you via subtitles  how " Ok we can take you in, but we totally have to wipe your memory first! Nobody must know it is you and those who do know will always  pretend they don't know!Like we did with Revan hey you remember Revan? " and then its off to new faction's starter planet for example? Sure, it could be done technically. It'd be quite flimsy and cheap feeling though, no? 

Then again, it'd have fun "new game+" feel to it somehow.

 

 

Edited by Stradlin
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32 minutes ago, Stradlin said:

I bet they once had every intention to allow these jumps and write a story to match. At least Knight, Warrior, Agent all have big potential intersections in their story where such leap could have been an option. JS Spoilers below

  Hide contents

Imagine what a story it would have been to be a Jedi Knight, get turned to evil by Emperor during JK story. Instead of barely mentioned  5 minutes of Knight doing Emperor's bidding, it'd be off  to Korriban for him. Full on DS stuff play through of Warrior story follows. Then, finally, you get to kill the Emperor a good couple of times during KOTET/KOTFE. Such fulfillment! Quite an arc! Nothing really prevents  you from imagining this is just what Sith Warrior is ig.

 

When it comes to some truly fulfilling way to do this via story , that includes lots of interesting dialogue, related VA work and world in general somehow recognizing what has happened? Such budget ships  have surely sailed long since. Something flimsier though, that'd just assume we accept it is up to players head cannon and RPs to make the story work? I'm sure it'd technically be entirely doable. Some alien delivering their best take on Dweebadoobaduuba language, explaining to you via subtitles  how " Ok we can take you in, but we totally have to wipe your memory first! Nobody must know it is you and those who do know will always  pretend they don't know!Like we did with Revan hey you remember Revan? " and then its off to new faction's starter planet for example? Sure, it could be done technically. It'd be quite flimsy and cheap feeling though, no? 

Then again, it'd have fun "new game+" feel to it somehow.

 

 

The only thing I'd say regarding budget is that we're not coming back from where things are no matter what - the game is already being told as a single narrative with only the rarest of nod to who our character is or what they've done. However, this one, isolated emotional payoff could at least be done (before barely acknowleding it again as we progress down that same, single story path) without majorly upsetting any budgetary constraints.

Basically, what I'm saying is: this is no longer the complex, multi-faceted, 6,000-different-lines-of-dialogue-required endeavor that it would have been in, say, 2013. The game is so barebones now that allowing us to switch sides really isn't the major ask it once would have been - especially if it was a one-time switch that could only be done at a certain juncture in a future expansion or update.

No, it wouldn't be as fulfilling a transition as it once might have been... but it would also be more satisfying, I think, than continuing to play these ridiculous shadow games where I can "support the empire" but go back to fighting for the Republic every 12 months. SWTOR has been dancing around this "might he/she ACTUALLY do it this time?" betrayal plot for a good 5 years now (hell, most of my Jedi are married to a Sith Lord. You can't tell me I'm still cool being welcomed back as a knight). It's time to actually let us go through with it (if we want to). 

Edited by AJediKnight
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The ideal opportunity to do it would be to plan it into the next 'jumping on point' / 'mission console' expansion start they do. There already aren't individual class stories. There are already enough companions around that the old issues about "But... if my Sith Warrior defected to the Jedi, how the hell would Quinn and Pearce follow, and if they didn't, I'd lose healer and tank in one swoop" simply aren't a problem any more. Combat styles mean that it's already perfectly possible to have a Marauder Jedi, etc etc, in terms of game mechanics.

 

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3 hours ago, AJediKnight said:

but it would also be more satisfying, I think, than continuing to play these ridiculous shadow games where I can "support the empire" but go back to fighting for the Republic every 12 months. SWTOR has been dancing around this "might he/she ACTUALLY do it this time?" betrayal plot for a good 5 years now (hell, most of my Jedi are married to a Sith Lord. You can't tell me I'm still cool being welcomed back as a knight). It's time to actually let us go through with it (if we want to). 

Lol, yeah.  Freshly dethroned Eternal Emperor/Alliance Commander/Ruler of MCcuffin Fleets sneaking around, pouring sugar in fuel tanks of couple of starfighters. "This will surely ruin that wretched empire right up!" If we were caught, Sith would just figure PC is eccentric or crazed, not making some valid attempt of epsionage. Who comes up with this stuff? Doing something more impactful wouldn't have been any more expensive or difficult to dev. "Pssst powerful sith is hiding in this instanced cave. Go there and spray some carbonite over him and we'll pop up  and carry the dude to our side" -type of stuff wouldn't have been any more difficult or costly to dev than this silly literal schoolyard prank tier.

 

 

Edited by Stradlin
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The issues I see with it are voice acting and flags.  For the voice acting, when a Sith Warrior switches sides does their voice change?   If they suddenly start using the Jedi Knight VA, then not much of an issue except that some people would get upset with that.  If they continued using the same VA, then they would have to double the amount of lines ( and as such the time and money both go up) for each one. I can see where they might balk at that issue.  
 

As for the flags issue, that I think is a bigger one. They have to transfer every flag over that they can and make choices for the ones they can’t.   I’m not sure how easily (or if they even could) change the flags for a warrior to use the Pub fleet and Pub sides of planets.  Would they have to functionally make the warrior a knight in terms of flags and would that mean choosing all the choices like they do if you skip KOTFE/KOTET?   

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2 minutes ago, Darcmoon said:

The issues I see with it are voice acting and flags.  For the voice acting, when a Sith Warrior switches sides does their voice change?   If they suddenly start using the Jedi Knight VA, then not much of an issue except that some people would get upset with that.  If they continued using the same VA, then they would have to double the amount of lines ( and as such the time and money both go up) for each one. I can see where they might balk at that issue.  
 

As for the flags issue, that I think is a bigger one. They have to transfer every flag over that they can and make choices for the ones they can’t.   I’m not sure how easily (or if they even could) change the flags for a warrior to use the Pub fleet and Pub sides of planets.  Would they have to functionally make the warrior a knight in terms of flags and would that mean choosing all the choices like they do if you skip KOTFE/KOTET?   

I think, say, a warrior would functionally become a knight. As for the VA - just keep the ones we have. The only dialog that would need re-voicing would be the player-half of the pre/post flashpoint dialogue, although if they REALLY wanted to cheap out, they could have former republic characters still just run the pub FPs. This would be unsatisfying, but wouldnt really require any additional voice acting at all.

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1 minute ago, AJediKnight said:

I think, say, a warrior would functionally become a knight. As for the VA - just keep the ones we have. The only dialog that would need re-voicing would be the player-half of the pre/post flashpoint dialogue, although if they REALLY wanted to cheap out, they could have former republic characters still just run the pub FPs. This would be unsatisfying, but wouldnt really require any additional voice acting at all.

The doubling of lines for the VA would come with any future updates.   The warrior VA would have to record the Imp side lines like they already do, plus the Pub side lines which are sometimes different lines.   That is what would increase the time and money required for it.

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5 hours ago, AJediKnight said:

Yes, I can play a "dark" Jedi or a "light" Sith. Yes, I can - in the most clumsy manner imaginable (seriously, how many Sith Lords would really content themselves with being a saboteur?) - undermine my faction from within.

And the same is true in SWTOR. Truly - TRULY - lightsided Sith (we're not talking about practical Sith Lords [which is what, say, the LS Warrior actually plays like]) change sides. Truly dark Jedi join the Sith. And the reason for this is simple: outside of absolutely berserk reasoning (which SWTOR tends to use to cover our behavior - especially when playing as a dark Jedi) and plot armor, the Jedi don't tolerate dark side users in their midst. 

I mean, there is a difference between a dark jedi and a sith, and the game (in the class stories) has made a fairly good separation of the differences: Jedi can seek power, influence and wealth without showing any interest in the imperial side and joining the sith hierarchy. In fact, aside from some light flirtation, joining the other side doesn't really come up as a potential option anywhere except the JK storyline.

Furthermore, aside from plot armor, my headcanon for why Jedi/Sith don't notice you is that they're preoccupied by the war. I've often been tempted to make a fanfic for this, where after the war, the Jedi switch from their outward focus and retreat inward, testing the purity of their Knights and Masters, not just their padawans. And the Sith are so preoccupied they're actually letting aliens join their ranks smh. Yes it would have been smart to write in Lord Cendence --or anyone--to hunt the SW/SI once they became too LS, it's a notable flaw in the game. 

But I get that your point is less about this and more that the saboteur is dumb and currently makes no sense, which I agree with. I'm only doing a full saboteur run on two characters, an Agent and a JC. The Agent is full DS and doesn't really want to join the Republic, she's an ex-Emperor following a "What would Kaliyo do?" philosophy who wants to sow chaos and weaken both sides so she can swoop in and backstab. The JC is full LS and hasn't really thought through the implications of what he's doing. The DS JC storyline is imo one of the craziest of the 8, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to do DS stuff the way it's written and it falls into the 'berserk reasoning' you describe so well. My JC is more of a dark Jedi than a Sith (despite still being LS): he's another ex-emperor, the benevolent dictator variety, still sitting on the damn Jedi council but never consulted on decisions (which is more bad writing). He's resentful and lashing out, not reciting the Sith Code. His behavior is so irrational that I've headcanoned that Valkorion messed up his mind so badly or installed hidden triggers to cause him to act this way. 

When the storyline finally ends (hopefully soon), I would hope most of the Agent's crew and associates to be unsurprised she did this, she already betrayed everyone else multiple times in her story and they are stupid to keep trusting her. But when it ends for the JC, I expect it to be very painful. I don't see an option where he goes off to be a Sith lord, more like he balks at the last second and the Republic charges him with treason. I can hope...

 

Edited by Ardrossan
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1 hour ago, RowanThursday said:

I must admit, I'd love to one day see a confrontation between Kaliyo and a treacherous Agent, along the lines of :

Kaliyo: But why'd you stab us all in the back like this? 

Cipher: Excuse me... you are asking me this? <murderpistol>

Given Kaliyo's general history of ... stuff, let's say, that conversation seems ... unlikely.

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59 minutes ago, SteveTheCynic said:

Given Kaliyo's general history of ... stuff, let's say, that conversation seems ... unlikely.

I'm just astounded that you and the other poster's Kaliyos are still alive. Almost worth playing through 9 chapters to watch the surprised look in her eyes.

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9 hours ago, Darcmoon said:

The doubling of lines for the VA would come with any future updates.   The warrior VA would have to record the Imp side lines like they already do, plus the Pub side lines which are sometimes different lines.   That is what would increase the time and money required for it.

I don't disagree with you that it would be an increase, though probably not 2x, since the saboteur plot already requires substantial addition of VA dialogue which would - for obvious reasons - be completely eliminated.

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9 hours ago, Darcmoon said:

The doubling of lines for the VA would come with any future updates.   The warrior VA would have to record the Imp side lines like they already do, plus the Pub side lines which are sometimes different lines.   That is what would increase the time and money required for it.

I don't disagree with you that it would be an increase, though probably not 2x, since the saboteur plot already requires substantial addition of VA dialogue which would - for obvious reasons - be completely eliminated.

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3 minutes ago, AJediKnight said:

I don't disagree with you that it would be an increase, though probably not 2x, since the saboteur plot already requires substantial addition of VA dialogue which would - for obvious reasons - be completely eliminated.

Why would it be eliminated?  Im sure there are people who would want to continue on that way with some of there toons.  BW would probably leave that in as an option. 

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22 minutes ago, AJediKnight said:

I'm just astounded that you and the other poster's Kaliyos are still alive.

Although there's no way I'd want to form a relationship with someone like Kaliyo, I do actually like the way she's set up in the game.  (Sherman, set the WABAC machine for 2015 or so.  Mr Cynic has just set aside a female Agent to start a male Agent so as to follow the Kaliyo romance.)

22 minutes ago, AJediKnight said:

Almost worth playing through 9 chapters to watch the surprised look in her eyes.

If you haven't yet played a male Agent through to Chapter X (10, ten, meaning 13 chapters in all, or 15 if you count one for RotHC and one for PtR/SoR/RotE), I highly recommend it, but make sure your character romances Kaliyo rather than Raina Temple, and doesn't romance Lana.  The reunion with Kaliyo is excellent in its own right, but the "love" letter in Chapter II for the Kaliyo-romanced male Agent is the best of the best.

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Oh, I'll admit that personally, I've never let Kaliyo live yet. I suppose I might if I get around to taking an Agent through Fallen Empire, though given that my Operative generally regarded Kaliyo as an insufferable akk dog she'd been charmed with holding the leash for as one of Keeper's more irritating side projects anyway, it's probably more likely that she'd just see Kaliyo's blunder there as being one mistake too far and pull the trigger anyway.

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I believe Charles Boyd hinted at the idea of a full blown defection as part of the saboteur storyline during one of the interviews before the game's 10th anniversary, however considering the lack of support this game has and the cadence of updates being smaller and smaller with each year I doubt we'd see such a feature getting implemented. Then again, I would've said the same thing about 64-bit support a year ago, so what do I know.

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12 hours ago, RowanThursday said:

Oh, I'll admit that personally, I've never let Kaliyo live yet. I suppose I might if I get around to taking an Agent through Fallen Empire, though given that my Operative generally regarded Kaliyo as an insufferable akk dog she'd been charmed with holding the leash for as one of Keeper's more irritating side projects anyway, it's probably more likely that she'd just see Kaliyo's blunder there as being one mistake too far and pull the trigger anyway.

I like Kaliyo. She's a good character, it's just regrettable that BW didn't give players the option to kill her back in vanilla. Also regrettable that she isn't a romance option for female agents, it's very similar to Jack from ME2. She doesn't make any sense for that kotfe mission though, she should have been more like SCORPIO, a temporary ally. 

The Agent storyline is one of the bottom tier of classes to take through KOTFE. It's slightly better than BH/Smuggler which are tied for last place imo. It ruined the Agent character for me because I played her chaotic neutral in vanilla and KOTFE  doesn't really have any neutral choices. 

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2 hours ago, Ardrossan said:

I like Kaliyo. She's a good character, it's just regrettable that BW didn't give players the option to kill her back in vanilla. Also regrettable that she isn't a romance option for female agents, it's very similar to Jack from ME2. She doesn't make any sense for that kotfe mission though, she should have been more like SCORPIO, a temporary ally. 

The Agent storyline is one of the bottom tier of classes to take through KOTFE. It's slightly better than BH/Smuggler which are tied for last place imo. It ruined the Agent character for me because I played her chaotic neutral in vanilla and KOTFE  doesn't really have any neutral choices. 

Kotfe/Kotet were essentially written exclusively for force users - the plot is, quite simply, berserk otherwise, as there is no conceivable reason as to why Valkorion would want to possess a non-Jedi/Sith. I don't care that your smuggler/BH/trooper/agent might be uniquely strong or cunning or quick-witted - Valkorion only sees you as a vessel; a husk. He's also an elitist who prizes force supremacy above all else - and his plan is to subsume all those intangibles that make your, say, smuggler awesome. This is one of the many reasons why those expansions are so reviled - they only make sense for half the game's character roster.

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3 hours ago, AJediKnight said:

Kotfe/Kotet were essentially written exclusively for force users - the plot is, quite simply, berserk otherwise, as there is no conceivable reason as to why Valkorion would want to possess a non-Jedi/Sith. I don't care that your smuggler/BH/trooper/agent might be uniquely strong or cunning or quick-witted - Valkorion only sees you as a vessel; a husk. He's also an elitist who prizes force supremacy above all else - and his plan is to subsume all those intangibles that make your, say, smuggler awesome. This is one of the many reasons why those expansions are so reviled - they only make sense for half the game's character roster.

There's that, sure. But the concept of the alliance itself could make sense for a trooper even without the Force-related stuff, maybe an Agent, but doesn't really make sense for a BH or smuggler, at least the way it's written. If they'd altered the dialogue for the BH for example that he was assembling a crew and Arcann was a bounty, and maybe made stronger connections with the Mandalorian chapter, it could have been okay. But instead they just shoehorned the classes in pretty much cookie-cutter.  

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One problem this would have is for the romanced characters who kept, or reunited with their original partner after the carbon-freeze portion of KOTFE.

I cannot see Kira following a dark side Jedi to the Sith, although I can see Ashara following a Light Side Inquisitor (saying, I TOLD you I was still a Jedi, the best duelist in my class... Hmmmph!).

Personally I wouldn't change my Sith Inquisitor (LS Sith Pureblood) over to the Jedi.  He is a pragmatic Sith, and still holds up hope for reforming the Sith from the inside. (Of course, the ultimate history shows him to be wrong because of what happens with Darth Bane, but that is in the future, and he is not really a prophet, despite what his cult on Nar Shaddaa thinks...)

 

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On 3/18/2023 at 10:38 PM, AJediKnight said:

You can't tell me it's not technically possible, because the "technical" hangups should all be associated with combat styles.

given how 6.x handled gear I'm not sure it was ever much of a technical hangup in the first place, combat styles seems more like a framework to potentially deliver more gameplay possibilites without strictly tying them to a base class

the current issues with faction swapping on a more permanent basis are heavily logistical, things like adapting repeatable content that currently looks at your base class to determine eligibility, as well as any conversations involved in that content (flashpoint intros being the biggest example that springs to mind), probably various considerations to be made for non-repeatable content too

basically just a lot of boring busywork, rather than figuring out whether the game's engine and programming can actually handle certain actions

On 3/18/2023 at 10:38 PM, AJediKnight said:

A permanent move from one faction to the other should really be as simple as the game creating a 'clone' of our chosen character on the opposing faction, deleting the original, and then associating all story/dialogue moving forward with a character that switched sides. And THAT shouldn't, in of itself, be that much of an ask, because the game is already remembering all of these various choices we made (what companions are alive or dead; whether we chose to be saboteurs, etc.)

almost sounds like the worst possible way to do this and "delete and remake" sounds ripe for manipulation especially in regards to character names

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On 3/20/2023 at 8:43 AM, Ardrossan said:

There's that, sure. But the concept of the alliance itself could make sense for a trooper even without the Force-related stuff, maybe an Agent, but doesn't really make sense for a BH or smuggler, at least the way it's written. If they'd altered the dialogue for the BH for example that he was assembling a crew and Arcann was a bounty, and maybe made stronger connections with the Mandalorian chapter, it could have been okay. But instead they just shoehorned the classes in pretty much cookie-cutter.  

 

I have a /tinfoil theory according to which KOTFE was supposed to have two to four different stories to tell, depending on your class. Perhaps main parts of the only  story they ended up doing is the one that in some early ancient design document was  initially meant just  for force users. Or perhaps even only for  Knight and Warrior. I mean..even the more bathroby force users feel bit like living the story of some other sith/jedi there. 


Maybe the whole basebuilding/alliance commander recruiting an army-side of it all was initially  planned for troopers and agents.

 

Add some untold smuggler's paradise-  version of the above for BHs and Smugglers, where it is the relentless underworld piracy that brings the fallen empire down.

 

 

I've no clue how non force user playthroughs  are supposed to get through fallen empire stuff and feel most of it makes sense. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Stradlin said:

I've no clue how non force user playthroughs  are supposed to get through fallen empire stuff and feel most of it makes sense. 

Carbonite sickness. Or bad space peyote during the vision quest with marr and satele. Not the first time the fan theory has been "maybe they're just screwed up" as a way of explaining BioWare's terrible writing (ME3).

I remember people complaining when SoR came out and one of the quests had toons shooting lightning at those pyramids on Yavin. Little did they know that was only the start...  

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