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Combat style changes origin story


Senkolo

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When you change your combat style it apparently changes your origin story to the story that used to be associated with it, so items that require the origin your char was created as become unusable.

This has a lot of actual effects outside of the fact that it just does not make sense character-wise.

I chose my secondary combat style on my main char specifically so that I could use an item for both styles (even though I already had a character at 80 with that style), only to find that I was no longer a consular when I was in my second style.  Now I apparently cannot reset my second spec and the purpose that drove my decision is invalid.

Literally staring at my character sheet that says 80 Jedi Consular, and I cannot use an item that says it requires Jedi Consular/Sith Inquisitor.

 

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1 hour ago, Senkolo said:

When you change your combat style it apparently changes your origin story to the story that used to be associated with it, so items that require the origin your char was created as become unusable.

This has a lot of actual effects outside of the fact that it just does not make sense character-wise.

I chose my secondary combat style on my main char specifically so that I could use an item for both styles (even though I already had a character at 80 with that style), only to find that I was no longer a consular when I was in my second style.  Now I apparently cannot reset my second spec and the purpose that drove my decision is invalid.

Literally staring at my character sheet that says 80 Jedi Consular, and I cannot use an item that says it requires Jedi Consular/Sith Inquisitor.

 

If you equip it as a consular, it automatically de-equips when you change to the other class?

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When you change combat styles, you mechanically become the 'class' the style belongs, but your Origin Story remains unchanged (companions, ship, class storyline):  You can't use this to get around an equipment restriction.

Any equipment with a class restriction really has to be read as 'can only be used by a combat style that originally belonged to this specific class'

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47 minutes ago, Dayshadow said:

If you equip it as a consular, it automatically de-equips when you change to the other class?

Yes.

 

40 minutes ago, Ominovin said:

When you change combat styles, you mechanically become the 'class' the style belongs, but your Origin Story remains unchanged (companions, ship, class storyline):  You can't use this to get around an equipment restriction.

Any equipment with a class restriction really has to be read as 'can only be used by a combat style that originally belonged to this specific class'

Yeah I mean if the restriction is not going to be removed it should at least give some warning so people don't waste a second combat style like I did.  I just started playing recently so I had no idea there were these style/class associations at all.  I assumed my origin story was a fundamental part of my character, not something that was going to change based on a style decision.

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10 hours ago, Senkolo said:

I assumed my origin story was a fundamental part of my character, not something that was going to change based on a style decision.

You assumed correctly.  Changing Combat Style does, indeed, not change your Origin Story.  If you start a Jedi Knight, but with the Assassin combat style, and then later add the Sage combat style, your Origin Story remains Jedi Knight at all times.

Where you erred was assuming that the "Requires Jedi Knight" on a JK-only item means "Requires Jedi Knight Origin", which it does not mean.

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6 hours ago, SteveTheCynic said:

You assumed correctly.  Changing Combat Style does, indeed, not change your Origin Story.  If you start a Jedi Knight, but with the Assassin combat style, and then later add the Sage combat style, your Origin Story remains Jedi Knight at all times.

Where you erred was assuming that the "Requires Jedi Knight" on a JK-only item means "Requires Jedi Knight Origin", which it does not mean.

Perhaps it is me that is just not getting this.

The game is obviously confused on what it thinks a Jedi Consular is.  When I am Consular/Defense Guardian my character sheet displays consular, and I can still use Consular phases.  I cannot use Knight phases.  I can only assume that my storyline would remain consular.  When it comes to items, the reverse is true.  The game believes I am a Jedi Knight.

To be clear:

Jedi Consular is an origin story.  This is clearly established I believe.

Changing combat style does indeed change origin story, as evidenced by the character no longer being able to equip items that require Jedi Consular.

If both of the above statements are true, then the problem and therefore solution seems clearly defined.

There are at least 2 options for a fix that straightens out the issue:

1)  Origin stories need to be modified to show that they are dependent on combat style, in order to clarify to new players that selecting a second combat style will bring this change in origin story (it would seem like a lot of other warnings may need to be considered as well)

2)  Remove the relationship of combat style to origin story altogether.  There is no useful reason to have it anymore, as any force user origin story can be any force user combat style.  Any item requirements can simply be shifted to require either a specific combat style or force/tech.

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It doesn't change your origin story.

The problem is bioware did not update the class restricted armors from the old  class system to the new origin style system of 7.0.

So 'requires jedi consular' doesn't mean Jedi Consular Origin Story  but instead it means the old Jedi Consular Classes (Sage or Shadow only) that was the system for pre 7.0.

Bioware needs to either update the tooltips for the old class restricted armors, or get rid of class restrictions completely.

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7 hours ago, Senkolo said:

The game is obviously confused on what it thinks a Jedi Consular is.

No.  It knows very well what a Jedi Consular is.  (It is a character that chose the "Jedi Consular" Origin Story.  If the character was created before 7.0 released, then the character of necessity also had a Consular-linked Combat Style because it wasn't until 7.0 that the two things were separated, but that is of limited relevance to this discussion.)

7 hours ago, Senkolo said:

When I am Consular/Defense Guardian my character sheet displays consular, and I can still use Consular phases.

Which means that your Origin Story is "Jedi Consular".  (It also doesn't matter which Discipline of your chosen Combat Style you use, nor which Combat Style you chose.)

7 hours ago, Senkolo said:

I cannot use Knight phases.  I can only assume that my storyline would remain consular.

Correct.

7 hours ago, Senkolo said:

When it comes to items, the reverse is true.  The game believes I am a Jedi Knight.

No.  It believes, correctly, that you have a Combat Style equipped that was exclusive to the Jedi Knight Origin Story.

7 hours ago, Senkolo said:

To be clear:

Jedi Consular is an origin story.  This is clearly established I believe.

It is.

7 hours ago, Senkolo said:

Changing combat style does indeed change origin story,

It does not.  Your chosen Origin Story affects only your actual, well, story, and not the gear you can wear.

7 hours ago, Senkolo said:

as evidenced by the character no longer being able to equip items that require Jedi Consular.

Because "Requires Jedi Consular" does not mean "Requires the Jedi Consular Origin Story".  It means "Requires a Combat Style that used to be exclusive to Jedi Consulars, i.e. Shadow or Sage".  Likewise, "Requires Jedi Knight" *now* means "Requires a Combat Style that used to be exclusive to Jedi Knights, i.e. Guardian or Sentinel".  By the way, I agree that these two equivalences are ... suboptimal.

7 hours ago, Senkolo said:

If both of the above statements are true,

They are not *both* true.

7 hours ago, Senkolo said:

1)  Origin stories need to be modified to show that they are dependent on combat style,

Incorrect.  Origin Stories are *absolutely* not dependent on Combat Styles.

7 hours ago, Senkolo said:

2)  Remove the relationship of combat style to origin story altogether.

That is what 7.0 did.

7 hours ago, Senkolo said:

Any item requirements can simply be shifted to require either a specific combat style

That is what happened.

Ultimately (er, how many times do I have to say this?) the problem is that the class-lock requirements are based on the character's equipped combat style, but they are expressed in terms that reference the pre-7.0 equivalent of Origin Stories rather than the relevant post-7.0 Combat Styles.

To be clear:

The way that what *should* be "Requires Sentinel or Guardian" is expressed is, ultimately, severely bogus, but it *is* internally self-consistent.  It would, however, be a very good idea to change it to mention the relevant Combat Styles (according to the specific object) rather than the pre-7.0 equivalent of the Origin Story that was linked to those Combat Styles.

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15 minutes ago, SteveTheCynic said:

To be clear:

The way that what *should* be "Requires Sentinel or Guardian" is expressed is, ultimately, severely bogus, but it *is* internally self-consistent.  It would, however, be a very good idea to change it to mention the relevant Combat Styles (according to the specific object) rather than the pre-7.0 equivalent of the Origin Story that was linked to those Combat Styles.

Not going to go point by point here, the above statement is all I was saying from the original post..  Although it is certainly not bogus.  There are real implications in gearing strategy here.

The game is not displaying the requirements correctly.  Change the display to match the requirements, or change the requirements to match the display. 

I am just trying to at least get the information out there so maybe someone else doesn't waste a second combat style choice based on patently false information directly from the tooltip of an item.  Perhaps we'll actually get it fixed.

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11 hours ago, Senkolo said:

Not going to go point by point here, the above statement is all I was saying from the original post..  Although it is certainly not bogus.

What I meant by "bogus" was the *current* wording of the "Requires X" statement on the tooltips.  It's bogus because it describes a Combat Style requirement in terms of an Origin Story, when it should describe it in terms of Combat Styles.

That is, instead of "Requires Jedi Knight", it should say "Requires Guardian" and "Requires Sentinel".  (Yes, two "Requires X" lines.  That's how it's expressed on items that have multiple possible "classes" that can use them, often odd combinations like "Requires Trooper" and "Requires Jedi Knight".  Those items do not say "Requires Trooper or Jedi Knight".)

11 hours ago, Senkolo said:

There are real implications in gearing strategy here.

Not as such, since most of the "Requires X" items apply only to characters below max level, and therefore only the requires-level-80 "interesting" Implants are, well, interesting for this discussion.

EDIT: To clarify: in essence, your gearing strategy depends, as it should, on your selected Combat Style.  If you fight like a Guardian, you should gear like a Guardian. END-EDIT.

11 hours ago, Senkolo said:

The game is not displaying the requirements correctly.

Correct.

11 hours ago, Senkolo said:

Change the display to match the requirements, or change the requirements to match the display. 

That's an interesting debate, but you've left out the third choice: remove the requirements.  EDIT: in some cases, such as 6.X set bonus gear, removing the requirements is not appropriate, so we come back to the debate.  I think that it's 137% better to change the display to match the real requirements, since the bonuses on set bonus gear (or on Implants for 7.X level 80 characters) are specific to your *combat style*.  END-EDIT

11 hours ago, Senkolo said:

I am just trying to at least get the information out there so maybe someone else doesn't waste a second combat style choice based on patently false information directly from the tooltip of an item.  Perhaps we'll actually get it fixed.

Fair enough.

Ultimately, mind you, we are in agreement on the point that the current situation is incorrect, and my proposition is that the requirements should be expressed in terms of Combat Styles.

Edited by SteveTheCynic
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