Lets talk about Meta Specs in PVP

[SentinalMasterWW]

So one thing that has been getting out of hand is the meta specs lately. A Meta spec to me is one that requires zero skill and is obnoxious to against, or one that has abilities that make it far above other specs. 

I consider these to be the current meta specs right now in PVP 

1. Infiltration/Deception 

2. Lethality/Ruffian 

3. Madness/Balance  

Scrapper/Concealment almost makes it to the list, but it lacks roll heal and its not as good as say back in 6.0, its still solid but I feel that its not the powerhouse it once was. It's sort of in the ether right now of being almost meta but not quite there. 

There is always going to be some form of meta class in games, but I'm pretty sure since 7.0 dropped these specs have not gotten nerfed in any form to my knowledge. We are seeing more and more of these specs in PVP, because they are the meta and people are going to gravitate towards the meta specs. I recently had a midbie match in PVP, all of the enemy team members were deception sins, spamming away their CC's and there was nothing we could do about it. I couldn't respect those players, and I cant really respect to people who main these in PVP and consider themselves great at the mode. If you loose fights against these specs in PVP, don't feel about yourself, the people who main them clearly know they are meta running. I refuse to main any of these specs, especially deception/infiltration, its because I consider them zero skill specs, there is no challenge and thus no fun to be had. 

Why are these meta specs? 

Infiltration/Deception 

Reason: Two cloaks tactical and low slash/CC spam alongside just high Crit DMG in general, Two cloaks give this spec two get out of jail cards, and with how broken stealth is in PVP, this spec has no worries on when to engage they start the fights on their terms, and if it goes bad they just hit the panic button and run away to heal up. Low slash is an obnoxious CC this spec has on a 12 Sec cooldown along with the ability being a 30m Range one, Srsly? This spec is supposed to be melee focused they should not be able to CC you from that far away. It's even worse when there are multiple sins doing this, which does happen a lot. This spec also just has insane Crit DMG, because this spec is stealth all the opener has to do is attack from stealth and unload both CC's and their hard hitting abilities.  

Lethality/Ruffian 

Reason: High DMG, Roll Heal, Evasion, This spec just dominates arena modes, I went numerous matches back to back winning them because of how easy this spec is, rarely anyone focuses you, you can have constant healing via roll heal and med probes, and if things go bad just hit the panic button and stealth out to go heal up. Evasion is just obnoxious on how often this spec can pop it granted yes it is only every 60 secs but still, it grants them 200% avoidance on all attacks, combine that with roll heal and their cleanse and this spec and just about survive anything thrown at it. 

Madness/Balance 

Reasoning: Deathbrand/Shifted balance, High Burst DMG, Insane self healing, probably the most broken one out of these three, Deathbrand can reapply itself to the target and slows it, it also provides more healing and for some reason which still hasn't been fixed yet, can apply itself even after defeat. The DMG on this spec is broken even more so when under polarity shift and force speed. Because it is a DOT based spec all of it's attacks ignore armor, which means you die really fast to this spec. The self healing from force leach alongside sorc self heals is ridiculous, while commando/Merc's can heal them selves, they don't have the constant self healing this spec can have. All you have to do to win fights in this spec is walk backwards while keeping deathrband on the target, and using force leach and demolish under force lightning, while popping polarity shift and force speed.

So, their clearly better than other specs, how would Bioware RE-Balance these specs to be more in line with others? 

Deception/Infiltration: Make Low Slash no longer a CC, instead make it a 4 sec immobilization akin to crippling slice where it just roots the target. I'd also reduce the range from 30M to one that is meant for a melee spec. I'd lower the Crit stacking of Vaulting slash, and lower the DMG a bit across the board for all its abilities. I'd also rework two cloaks tactical, I'd preferer that it would reduce the cooldown for force cloak in some form rather than just giving a free 2nd one. 

Lethality/Ruffian: I would reduce the healing down by roll heal or increase the cooldown on which it can apply itself, and perhaps lower the DMG numbers a bit for this spec. 

Madness/Balance: Limit how often Deathbrand can reapply, up to two times is fair IMO. I'd reduce the healing done by Force leach by around 25-25%, and I'd reduce the DMG on Demolish, and lower some numbers when this spec is under polarity shift & Recklessness and perhaps look into nerfing the gathering storm package. 

 

[TrixxieTriss]

Or they could just improve the other classes/specs that they nerfed into the ground.

[SentinalMasterWW]

26 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Or they could just improve the other classes/specs that they nerfed into the ground.

I'm in favor of giving all the classes their abilities back rather than locking it behind a tree and calling it "player choice", since 7.0 came out this game has been on a downward incline, wouldn't be surprised if around 8.0 they revert everything when they realize that a majority of their players left and they advertise it as a great decision. 

[Samcuu]

Biggest issue imo is that most classes lost stuns and dcds. I don't cry over the stuns because stun lock deaths were far more frequent than they are now so those needed to go. But certain classes like slinger and Sent lost stuns plus dcds. The kit being reduced is far more to blame. 

Self heals on leth aren't even that great and the class needs them to survive considering it's a light armor squish class. The best change to be made for leth op is making the size of their aoe smaller. Otherwise it's a fairly simple class to counter if you are use a ranged toon. 

I honestly don't even have an issue with madness sorc tbh. Yes the self heals can be stupid but I don't really feel like the dmg is out of control. Again it's another light armor class so providing self heals for them is fair. 

Fotm classes can be very annoying in arenas because everyone is playing the meta and class stacking s tier classes can feel very bad but that can be true of most classes tbh.

[Tasaas]

Lethality and Madness are in a good spot right now, I will not dispute that.  Both can easily be played ok, however, both have a steep learning curve to be great/good.

 

Sin is glass cannon even with two stealth pops, boom,,, dead. 

 

I will add Sniper, Jugg and Guardian to your list of Meta classes.  

[Samcuu]

35 minutes ago, Tasaas said:

Lethality and Madness are in a good spot right now, I will not dispute that.  Both can easily be played ok, however, both have a steep learning curve to be great/good.

 

Sin is glass cannon even with two stealth pops, boom,,, dead. 

 

I will add Sniper, Jugg and Guardian to your list of Meta classes.  

I feel like this post is made with class stacking in arenas at the top of his mind. Couple good sins on you and ur stun locked and dead pretty quickly and they are very good in arenas thanks to the tactical. Arenas have been broken for a long time and expose the class balances more than any game mode, and when ur solo queueing its pain. 

Completely agree with u about the high level of play needed from madness and leth. I've been playing leth op since 3.0, even before when there were skill trees, maybe in 2.0. It's finally a viable spec after about 7 years or so of being one of the worst classes in game. I see a ton of leth ops that do dmg from their dots and aoe but don't really know how to kite/strafe or get the most out of the class. Even with other leth ops in a match I'm out dmg'ing them regularly by quite a wide margin. And speaking from experience a good ranged player can shut a leth op down very easily. I love playing lightning against leth ops they just run after about 10 seconds of not being able to get any attacks off on you lol. Good ranged players do the same exact thing to me. 

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Samcuu

[Illedros]

13 hours ago, Tasaas said:

I will add Sniper, Jugg and Guardian to your list of Meta classes.  

If sniper is meta, then every class is meta. No heals, no stealth and when you take damage - you stay damaged (excluding kolto pack). Is there any other class in this situation? Sniper is the counter class to nothing right now, they can be decent against melee but still don't have the survivability or the single target dps that rage, carnage and deception have. Not to mention AP PTs. They absolutely destroy sniper as powertechs have leap, pull, stuns, immunity to knockback & neural dart tactical. Sniper cannot recover from AP burst or get away. Phase walk is useless as they just follow you and finish you. Best you can do is run away and hope they attack someone else. Sniper is terrible against other ranged simply because mercs and sorcs can heal. A sorc or merc of equal skill of the sniper should always win. Esp madness. At some point they'll just LOS then spam heal. Madness doesn't even to LOS, that class is so broken they can almost face tank. With any of the classes that can heal defeating a sniper is really just a waiting game as snipers cannot recover health and as sniper DCD's are often tied to their movement abilities (roll & countermeasures(evasion)) - if you can make them use them to chase you you're effectively making them waste some of their defences. Unlike operative, sorc & merc DCD's that are mainly seperate from their movement abilities. Sniper is poorly designed in this way.

The only thing that's kinda meta about snipers is the Ionic discharge tactical. Which yeah I agree is kinda broken and needs a revamp. No I don't use it - it's kinda like the 'idiots guide to engi' tactical. I still prefer marksman but it's in such a bad state right now. There is no way you can say marksman is meta. Almost totally white damage & most attacks are either charged or channeled making it the most turret-like ranged class. Not to mention the same crap defenses, no heals and low parse/dps. It's solid D tier.

[Tasaas]

Voidstar, just past the bridge.  Put 2 snipers on the platform just below defenders spawn, it is like Lord of the Rings..

 

YOU SHALL NOT PASS!

 

that is pretty meta...

[TrixxieTriss]

6 hours ago, Tasaas said:

Voidstar, just past the bridge.  Put 2 snipers on the platform just below defenders spawn, it is like Lord of the Rings..

 

YOU SHALL NOT PASS!

 

that is pretty meta...

You won’t want to try that against experienced players. They’ll decimate you 🤣😂

[sithBracer]

On 2/27/2023 at 8:18 AM, SentinalMasterWW said:

So one thing that has been getting out of hand is the meta specs lately. A Meta spec to me is one that requires zero skill and is obnoxious to against, or one that has abilities that make it far above other specs. 

I consider these to be the current meta specs right now in PVP 

1. Infiltration/Deception 

 

Stopped reading right there. You have an L2P issue.

[LordSitho]

On 3/8/2023 at 4:24 PM, sithBracer said:

Stopped reading right there. You have an L2P issue.

Deception hits hard though.. 2-3 attacks and the opponent has lost 50% HP.

[HeatRacer]

On 2/27/2023 at 5:18 AM, SentinalMasterWW said:

Madness/Balance 

Reasoning:  High Burst DMG

 

lol, wut? Not how DOT classes work. It's literally the opposite; almost all of Madness' attacks take a long time to apply their damage, or else have an interruptible charge up/channel time, thus giving the opponent time to apply DCD's, cleanses, or get healed. Yes, it puts up high total damage numbers, but it's also slow "fluff" damage that can be healed through almost as quickly as it's applied. Deathbrand/Death Field is the only insta-cast hard-hitter, and doesn't have any other similar moves to chain with to make a burst rotation.  

Edited March 23, 2023 by HeatRacer

[Monhnich]

The only Meta spec are Premades, and this will continue until Devs do something about it. 

    Premades - destroying SWTOR since 2012. 💪💪

Edited March 23, 2023 by Monhnich

[sithBracer]

On 3/18/2023 at 10:24 AM, LordSitho said:

Deception hits hard though.. 2-3 attacks and the opponent has lost 50% HP.

Deception has a strong opener, but it has nothing else after that. It's DCDs are bad, it's mobility is meh, it has no other rotational burst, and its sustained damage isn't very good either. It pretty much just becomes a squishy low slash/taunt bot.

Deception is only really good in 4dps vs 4dps arena matches, probably I would say they are top 3 in that event. If you add in a tank/healer they become bottom tier almost immediately because once their opener is soaked up and healed through, they have nothing left. It was even made worse since the nerf to Energized blade.

 

[Xerekfell]

On 3/2/2023 at 10:36 AM, Samcuu said:

I feel like this post is made with class stacking in arenas at the top of his mind. Couple good sins on you and ur stun locked and dead pretty quickly and they are very good in arenas thanks to the tactical. Arenas have been broken for a long time and expose the class balances more than any game mode, and when ur solo queueing its pain. 

Completely agree with u about the high level of play needed from madness and leth. I've been playing leth op since 3.0, even before when there were skill trees, maybe in 2.0. It's finally a viable spec after about 7 years or so of being one of the worst classes in game. I see a ton of leth ops that do dmg from their dots and aoe but don't really know how to kite/strafe or get the most out of the class. Even with other leth ops in a match I'm out dmg'ing them regularly by quite a wide margin. And speaking from experience a good ranged player can shut a leth op down very easily. I love playing lightning against leth ops they just run after about 10 seconds of not being able to get any attacks off on you lol. Good ranged players do the same exact thing to me. 

 

You do not need a high level of game knowledge to play both of these specs. Both are incredibly straight forward brain drains like most classes in tor. The only hard class to play atm is Sniper since you have no self heals other than Medpac. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Xerekfell

[Xerekfell]

23 hours ago, sithBracer said:

Deception has a strong opener, but it has nothing else after that. It's DCDs are bad, it's mobility is meh, it has no other rotational burst, and its sustained damage isn't very good either. It pretty much just becomes a squishy low slash/taunt bot.

Deception is only really good in 4dps vs 4dps arena matches, probably I would say they are top 3 in that event. If you add in a tank/healer they become bottom tier almost immediately because once their opener is soaked up and healed through, they have nothing left. It was even made worse since the nerf to Energized blade.

 

Deception can perform very well in t/h setting since the rework of Discharge AOE (May Cause Injury) it also varies on how much brain power your tank has usually. Sin will still get sacked by specs like AP, Carnage, Leth, and Sorc. Especially against meta comps such as Double Carb, Leth, and Sorc Healer.

[Xerekfell]

On 3/23/2023 at 11:48 AM, HeatRacer said:

lol, wut? Not how DOT classes work. It's literally the opposite; almost all of Madness' attacks take a long time to apply their damage, or else have an interruptible charge up/channel time, thus giving the opponent time to apply DCD's, cleanses, or get healed. Yes, it puts up high total damage numbers, but it's also slow "fluff" damage that can be healed through almost as quickly as it's applied. Deathbrand/Death Field is the only insta-cast hard-hitter, and doesn't have any other similar moves to chain with to make a burst rotation.  

Madness can do the equivalent of Explosive Fuel Thermal Detonator and Energy Burst together with Powered Detonator which is around 120k-140k damage. You can do this with Plaguemaster since the devs really feel the need to give a dot spec comparable burst to AP with dot detonation which is off the charts stupid. I will not say how you can but anyone who can put together a single braincell can figure this out.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Xerekfell

[Xerekfell]

On 3/2/2023 at 11:37 PM, Illedros said:

If sniper is meta, then every class is meta. No heals, no stealth and when you take damage - you stay damaged (excluding kolto pack). Is there any other class in this situation? Sniper is the counter class to nothing right now, they can be decent against melee but still don't have the survivability or the single target dps that rage, carnage and deception have. Not to mention AP PTs. They absolutely destroy sniper as powertechs have leap, pull, stuns, immunity to knockback & neural dart tactical. Sniper cannot recover from AP burst or get away. Phase walk is useless as they just follow you and finish you. Best you can do is run away and hope they attack someone else. Sniper is terrible against other ranged simply because mercs and sorcs can heal. A sorc or merc of equal skill of the sniper should always win. Esp madness. At some point they'll just LOS then spam heal. Madness doesn't even to LOS, that class is so broken they can almost face tank. With any of the classes that can heal defeating a sniper is really just a waiting game as snipers cannot recover health and as sniper DCD's are often tied to their movement abilities (roll & countermeasures(evasion)) - if you can make them use them to chase you you're effectively making them waste some of their defences. Unlike operative, sorc & merc DCD's that are mainly seperate from their movement abilities. Sniper is poorly designed in this way.

The only thing that's kinda meta about snipers is the Ionic discharge tactical. Which yeah I agree is kinda broken and needs a revamp. No I don't use it - it's kinda like the 'idiots guide to engi' tactical. I still prefer marksman but it's in such a bad state right now. There is no way you can say marksman is meta. Almost totally white damage & most attacks are either charged or channeled making it the most turret-like ranged class. Not to mention the same crap defenses, no heals and low parse/dps. It's solid D tier.

Sniper isn't "meta" in the sense that it's PT or Madness meta. It's meta because every noob and their moms can take Ionic Discharge as Engi and do 150k dets. The reason it's not like AP or Madness meta like i said prior is because the class gets rekt under pressure and cannot take damage. 

[sithBracer]

On 3/24/2023 at 4:45 PM, Xerekfell said:

Deception can perform very well in t/h setting since the rework of Discharge AOE (May Cause Injury) it also varies on how much brain power your tank has usually. Sin will still get sacked by specs like AP, Carnage, Leth, and Sorc. Especially against meta comps such as Double Carb, Leth, and Sorc Healer.

May cause injury is trash and not worth using at all. It always was and will be. We tried it many times and it was always worse than energized blade and (now) awakened flame.

[Illedros]

On 3/25/2023 at 7:58 AM, Xerekfell said:

Sniper isn't "meta" in the sense that it's PT or Madness meta. It's meta because every noob and their moms can take Ionic Discharge as Engi and do 150k dets. The reason it's not like AP or Madness meta like i said prior is because the class gets rekt under pressure and cannot take damage. 

Exactly, it's the only thing kinda meta about snipers. I've started calling it the 'idiots guide to engi' or 'engi for dummies' tactical. Seems to more accurately describe it. Meanwhile viru & MM are no where near meta.

[GeneralTiphis]

Think they care anymore? lol

[DougTheNoob]

How easy is to kill a merc in arena fights now that theres no more bug on their skill tree,and so no more rocket out + reflect? Worst mobility in game atm (even worse than jugg imo),and once u use ur reflect ( which is arguably the best choice for arenas), good luck trying kitting  with only the bad version of hydraulic against a bunch of roots and slows that nearly every other class can aply many times. Some will say merc has insane dcds,but any experienced player knows exactly what to do against energy shield and the reflect. Guess they really want us all to play either lethality or madness indeed.

At least give mercs  the PT's hydraulic version. The way it is,mercs cant chase anything,and cant run from anyone. RIP.

[Glower]

On 3/24/2023 at 10:51 PM, Xerekfell said:

Madness can do the equivalent of Explosive Fuel Thermal Detonator and Energy Burst together with Powered Detonator which is around 150-200k damage

I tried to replicate this and all i got is 20-30% of average health bar with 16-14sec pause at best, yeah after this you can add a bit more but not 150-200k. I dont have legendary augs, but i dont think that damage with them will jump x3 times.

Also i never seen this kind of damage from sorcs in the regular warzones... So yeah - mad sorcs are strong, but I call bs on this one OR i dont have brain cells even at reptilian level. 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Glower