Sale raids are bad for the game (long)

[ZUHFB]

So, before I start maybe a short backstory: I used to do sale raids for many many years before inflation got so bad, I ended up making around 300b. I invested most of it into items so I don't have to worry about inflation. I've done sales in 5 different team and 3 different servers, I know the people involved and while most of them are a great plus for the community, their sale raids are just bad.

Let me start by saying this is not about ALL people who do sale raids, just some of them. But because of them the entire concept of sale raids needs to be banned/removed or stopped. 

1. Not everything is able to be sold within the terms of service. Account sharing is very common, the buyer giving the sellers their account information in order to have them play their character. This way teams are able to sell things like Gods from the Machine NiM, it would be impossible to actually 7man this entire operation (some bosses can be 7 manned but not all of them). Account sharing has been a thing ever since nightmare crystals were removed, they were removed to combat sale raids and what did the teams do? Do the same sale raids, but this time while breaking the ToS! Again, not all sales, not all teams. Brontes wings can be sold without account sharing and I believe that the NA sales team had a rule that they would not use account sharing, however, just yesterday there seems to have been a Gods from the Machine sale, so it's pretty clear they don't stick to that anymore either (just hearsay, but the one who said it was participating). 

2. Buyers. The problem of most sales is not that the teams break the ToS, it is that the buyers are. Again, the NA sales team even has a statement addressing this which is something along the lines of "we aren't responsible from where the buyers get their credits", which is true. But does this really solve the problem? Matter of fact is that those very sales teams build a (almost) Monopoly of sales and increasing the prices at the same rate, prices which are so exorbitantly high that a normal player could not effort this in a million years. I am banned from most sales discords because of me being vocal about my dislike for them, last time I checked prices were 8 Hypercrates for 1 Wings of the Architect, one hypercrate (on DM) is sold for ~11b currently). A heroic mission gives around 25k credits, this means to effort one wings of the architect a normal player would have to do 3.5 MILLION heroics. It is pretty save to assume that 95% of buyers broke the terms of service at least once, if not twice (RMT and account sharing). How is it legal to sell something to someone who they can almost be sure did not gain their wealth in a legit way? Which gets me to my next point.

3. RMT (real money trading) of both sides! So why even bother involving a third party (either bioware or the other various means on the internet to obtain credits). What is happening is that some of the sellers realized there is no way they can keep doing sale raids (infinite demand). They would just run out of space in their legacy cargo bay! So what some are doing is saying "Hey, you don't have the credits to effort this run, I have them though - just paypal me 50€" (against the ToS obviously). This is why the price skyrocketed for sales a while ago, they realized there was actual profit to be made, there was no competition. They just put a price tag on something and then buy it with their own credits! Obviously they can put whatever pricetag they want on a sale run if they are the ones spending credits on it! They are paying themselves and taking money away from bioware! If the buyer were to refuse the option from the sellers and obtain the run in a legit way, by mailing their credit card to bioware HQ they would have to spend: 8 Hypercrates OR (8x5400CC) 43.200CC OR (43200/14500=2.98) 3*87.50€ = 262.5€. If buyer now realized this pricetag which option do you think they will take? This pretty much proves bioware loses 300€ per saleraid (wings of the architect are pretty much the cheapest thing on the market). 
BUT WAIT: there is competition not in their monopoly of disgrace. A team is selling wings for 60b Credits: let's do that math: 60b=6Hypercrates*11b -> 6*5400=32.400 CC OR 87.50€*2+35€ = 210€.
Ah good! Way cheaper, unless... and their sales are pretty dead. So I wonder which deal are buyers taking? Ah, I don't. They take the first option directly making bioware lose 300€ per sale

4. Logistics: It is just barely possible to spend all of the "illegitimate" credits earned. Some sellers have been investing into random items on the GTN to fill their collection %. So this does not apply to all sellers, but as my example showed it is enough for one black sheep to cost bioware tons of money. Banning sale raids won't give them this money however - people would just not spend as much, but what people would do I buy cartel market mounts. It is simply impossible to store these amounts of credits the sellers make from many sales over many months, this is why the prices are sometimes in hypercrates. They are less bulky. Coincidentally, "illegitimate other ways of obtaining hypercrates via the internet" happened at exactly the same time sale teams started doing prices in hypercrates instead of credits. It is 1. Less bulky, 2. the people who not involved in RMT get to open packs which does fill their collection % equally as fast and 3. it is just faster to do, trading 100b credits is just a huge timesink since both sides have to open the legacy cargo 25 times.

All of this is just not good for the game, sales do not cause inflation, they just break the ToS because of inflation and greed. Even if bioware has no way of earning the (average of) 300€ per sale raid done, it is still not good for the game, because someone is earning this money. If bioware is to combat inflation, this has to go first. This is how "illegitimate other ways of obtaining hypercrates via the internet" get their credits, from those people and from bots. I just saw it in a twitch stream yesterday, someone who does sale at least once/week with less than 5b credits in their legacy bay. How is this possible, just makes me think. 

There should not be any action taken against the sellers. Sale raids are not against the ToS, and it isn't their fault how buyers get their credits at the end of the day. But that doesn't change the fact a blind person could see the obvious involvement of RMT on one, or both, side(s). What should happen is that sale raids should be against the terms of service, just like the account sharing or RMT used in 99% of sales, and if there is prove of such a thing happening, to act on those reports. I report sales with RMT, account sharing or whatever all the time, I even report regular account sharing! Nothing ever happens. I'm not surprised this game is making bioware not enough money to spend more resources on it, seeing how much sale raids are taking away. I'm sure its just a small portion in comparison to how much money they make from subs, but just ask yourself: Is this good for the game? Is this good for anyone (except the sellers/buyers)? No. No it's not good. It should no longer be allowed.

I have little hope this accomplishes anything, since my previous reports have all been ineffective, if it's account sharing, RMT or anything. The only thing I ever reported that got fixed (it wasn't in patchnotes it was too broken) was the infinite ranked token exploit. If this isn't enough proof I have an idea what I'm talking about I have no idea what is. Should I get a written confession next time? When will this stop bioware? 

PS.: I have never done any RMT, or something like this. My 300b are all in items or got wasted on dyes. Furthermore they are split on 3 servers. I have no involvement in RMT or all this shady stuff. I just think it's not good for the game, and it isn't. Of the 4 notable sales teams that come to my mind, two are involved in this - the third one is actively account sharing even outside of sales and the last one isn't getting very many buyers. It's just not acceptable, I still have to play with them due to the lack of honorable people left in the top of the raiding community, I'd rather raid with people involved in this, than not at all. It does not make them bad people and I truly have no ill will against them, but sales simply aren't a benefit for the game and thus, should not be allowed.

Edited January 21, 2023 by ZUHFB

[RikuvonDrake]

some irony to this message considering that you multiple times have asked to join sale groups and participated in them during the last year while expressing that you need to "get rid" of credits, is this another one of those situations where its "do as i say, not as i do"

[Ilurkin]

snitch

[AMAirlines]

So, I'm gonna go point by point here and give you my opinion, as I am likely the "NA sales team" you are referring to.

1) The only thing we haven't yet sold was 8m NiM Gods, I repeat. WE HAVE NOT SOLD IT POST 7.0! We do believe we can do it without account sharing though, and will be trying it soon. Please PM me information for the other NA team.

2) Anybody who does money via in game missions is an idiot. Abuse our over inflated crafting system, you'll make a lot more in the augment market. It is also pretty easy to buy a cartel market item, and sell it on fleet. This is how you make money.

3) I'm not gonna deny things that I know happened. However, none of the sales teams (That I am affiliated with) have "true" money prices.

4) <Who Cares>

[ZUHFB]

8 hours ago, RikuvonDrake said:

some irony to this message considering that you multiple times have asked to join sale groups and participated in them during the last year while expressing that you need to "get rid" of credits, is this another one of those situations where its "do as i say, not as i do"

at least provide the full context: The request I made was for you to stop advertising your sales with my name in the advertisement message. This could be considered doxxing but I don't even care enough about that, all I wanted was for you to stop that. Nobody would like their name on a product they are not even selling! So I requested for you to stop it or to get into the team again, due to our past... indifferences I knew you'd just stop (which honestly I don't know since you're on ignore). I never did sales for the money, not once. I always did it for the company of people I liked being around, I do not like the company, I don't do sales. You and your co lead both showed time and time again that this is not the case, this is why I left. This is why I don't want to return, I got enough, I don't need more - to buy what? 

Also I do not know this multiple times thing, this was the only time. Just because I wanted you to stop advertising the sales that are so close to RMT and account sharing. NA is at least trying to make a legit thing out of this and I know you're in somewhat of a influential position there too, but sales simply aren't good for the game. Obviously they aren't the cause of inflation, but inflation has made them infinitely worse to the point were they are no longer acceptable, it took me some time to realize, but you're not even arguing against me. 

3 hours ago, AMAirlines said:

So, I'm gonna go point by point here and give you my opinion, as I am likely the "NA sales team" you are referring to.

1) The only thing we haven't yet sold was 8m NiM Gods, I repeat. WE HAVE NOT SOLD IT POST 7.0! We do believe we can do it without account sharing though, and will be trying it soon. Please PM me information for the other NA team.

2) Anybody who does money via in game missions is an idiot. Abuse our over inflated crafting system, you'll make a lot more in the augment market. It is also pretty easy to buy a cartel market item, and sell it on fleet. This is how you make money.

3) I'm not gonna deny things that I know happened. However, none of the sales teams (That I am affiliated with) have "true" money prices.

1. Hmm yeah, I guess I can see 7 man scyva with solo heals. Just what I heard, doesn't have to be true and I know you were always very careful about the sales, doing the as legit as possible. Also, planning SFRC etc. just makes you a huge + to the community as a whole, but sales aren't, at least not in their current state.

2. True, but I calculated just how expensive it is to buy mounts, to make those amount any players needs starting capital. Which they usually get through RMT, which is exactly the problem.

3. I know. Your sales are pretty clean, I was not trying to make the NA team look bad. I was trying to make them a the most positive example possible and show how it is still very bad - but at least your teams are trying to keep it in the ToS. But that is the only team and I'm pretty sure you know that too, the sales you're doing are of a very high quality and reputation goes a long way in those cases. 

 

Sales aren't beneficial for the game, or bioware, therefor steps should be taken to remove them. 

[Chryptyk]

So what happens to sales runs if the gold sellers are actually shut down?  i don't think people would be able to afford the current prices if that were to happen.

[ZUHFB]

1 hour ago, Chryptyk said:

So what happens to sales runs if the gold sellers are actually shut down?  i don't think people would be able to afford the current prices if that were to happen.

The prices would go down, provided the RMT of the seller itself is shut down too. If all of this happens then prices go down but the same number of Credits is in the economy so people will still p2w those mounts, just from bioware via hypercrates due to a lack of other options. I'd much rather see the money in biowares hands then in one of the people who did replied.

Or course I would need a written confession, since not even in game screenshots count as proof, neither do discord screenshots. There has to be 0 tolerance to this stuff like there is in FFXIV, even there RMT is huge though. But as long as steps are taken to make it as hard as possibe for this current system to exists I'm happy.

Sales used to be somewhat legit, when hypercrates cost 150m and wings cost 300m. Now a hypercrate is 11b and wings are 7 Hypercrates so the price with inflation factored is more than 3x its original price. Its not natural growth, just manipulation to make people NOT pay with credits, even if bought from bioware.

[JediQuaker]

The main 'problem' I see with sales runs is that they devalue the 'shinies' that are achieved. When I see someone running around Fleet with their "Wings Of the Architect" (or whatever), I don't think "that must be a good player" - no, I think, "there goes another person who was carried through an OP". 😂

[easyandrew]

I`m seeing people on the fleet with the Bronte`s Wings and the Creast and when looking at their achivo`s,,They got like 2k/4k in totaly points and in Ops they don`t have the MM achivo for them,,So it is obvious many still `pay`` in however form for these. I got offered once but when he told me how I could pay I declined,,He asked for my password so he can use my toon to get thru DF Nim. Last I heard a lot of raid grps have all stopped talking to him now.

[SteveTheCynic]

6 hours ago, easyandrew said:

He asked for my password so he can use my toon to get thru DF Nim.

Yeah, that's a major no-no, and could have gotten your account banned if you had accepted it.

[ZUHFB]

8 hours ago, SteveTheCynic said:

Yeah, that's a major no-no, and could have gotten your account banned if you had accepted it.

Yes. And some sale raid teams do that, I've not seen one seller banned for doing this fyi. While the example given (DF) shouldn't be an operation you need 8 people for so the group must have been terrible to begin with and it sounds very unserious.

[SteveTheCynic]

6 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Yes. And some sale raid teams do that, I've not seen one seller banned for doing this fyi. While the example given (DF) shouldn't be an operation you need 8 people for so the group must have been terrible to begin with and it sounds very unserious.

The participants don't get banned because it is in none of their interests to report the transaction.  The player being carried doesn't want to report it and get banned, and the carrier (playing the carryee's account) doesn't want any hint of it getting in reports unless he himself gets caught up in the wave of bans.

[Lost-Savage-XIII]

I do not understand the obsession people have with what OTHER people are doing? Explain to me how this effects you in ANY WAY? Plus the fact that you made bank doing it now you want to cry about how bad it is? Did you get kicked from your team? What? 

[ZUHFB]

1 hour ago, Lost-Savage-XIII said:

I do not understand the obsession people have with what OTHER people are doing? Explain to me how this effects you in ANY WAY? Plus the fact that you made bank doing it now you want to cry about how bad it is? Did you get kicked from your team? What?

I left the team after I realized buyers are unable to get the required amounts in legit ways. 

I made "bank" doing it, I only made around 200b over the years.  I was selling wings when they were at 300million, than 500 million, than 1b, than 7b, and now it's 7 hypercrates. The number just got too large, almost no buyer is able to get this amount without being involved in RMT. 

RMT very much effects me, it goes against the core value of MMORPG's. Everybody starts out equal, it does not matter how rich, how poor, how big or how small you are, everybody starts of the same. If those people take shortscuts while paying with real money, and I'm not talking about 17€ for a level 70 character, I'm talking about many hundreds of moneys bioware is missing out (not to mention the years worth of subs they could've gotten from the player raiding all the content, instead of  just buying it. The moneys they missed out on could've (just an example) put into coming up with a way to work out ranked and combat styles instead of just removing them. It is not only against my core value, it also harms the game I enjoy. Why would anybody be IN FAVOR of sales? Are you profiting? No? Well then you're losing. 

Again, Riku, Andy and Pres did respond to this, it's not just someone being mad at people getting credits, ah sorry, I meant real money - I am mad that bioware, and thus ultimately the game, is missing out of rather large quantities of real life money which all goes to people RMT'ing, account sharing or being involved in shady stuff in general. Thus it should get removed, be made against the ToS, punished or whatever. As long as actions are taken, at least one step into the right way, I'm happy.


Edit: I also got DM'd on discord that "comparing how many heroics it would take is stupid, nobody makes money this way no more" - so here is a better example (I am missing the exact number but according to swtorista one DF SM gets you 2k Fragments, I think it's actually lower but w/e): 

7 Hypercrates * 11b/Hypercrate = 77b
77 000m/(200m/oem) = 385oem
385oems/(1oem/4000 fragments)= 1 540 000 tech fragments
1 540 000 fragments / (2 000 fragments/DFSM) = 770 DF SM

so there you have it, either those people bought their credits from any 3rd party OR they did DF SM 770 times. (Buying from BW is not a realistic option, as I previously explained)

Edited February 6, 2023 by ZUHFB

[MSE-Droid]

Inflation is due to various credit exploitation and "man in the middle" packet editing. 

Sale raiders end up with part of this money eventually down the line, just like augment crafters or anyone else who provides a service in game. Sales were in a healthy spot w/ crystals, everything was done via terms of service. Nobody wants to account share or RMT, this opens infinite risk to the player and client. Previously the few fringe raiders who wanted to RMT could sell off their hypercrates/credits w/o involvement of the rest of the teams. This topic seems to have a lot more to do with Riku beef than sales teams in general, but I hope you got it all out of your system and feel a bit better.

At the end of the day you're asking way too much from a company that believes a 5000 credit tax on a quick transport will combat inflation. 
I would pay 50b to dye my wings or change the color of the fire from Bantam Dxun Reaper, that is 10,000,000 quick travels.

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by MSE-Droid
typo

[ZUHFB]

1 hour ago, MSE-Droid said:

This topic seems to have a lot more to do with Riku beef than sales teams in general

it ain't

I do fully believe the entire system is flawed at this point and a player can never be blamed for doing things in their best interest, even if against ToS

I even said sale raids don't cause inflation, this is different. I see a stream, known seller, 5b in the cargo - how curious that he has a bit more than character cap, almost like they regularly sell 100b to third party. Denying this is like saying pinguins can fly. Is it a big problem? No, but it is something that is against my personal values a MMO has and this is why I am so invested. 95% of all buyers buy their credits and or hypercrates from other sources than bioware making bioware lose money. They punished RMT in the past with things like account selling from ex ranked players and Lyalas wintrading service. How is this different.

Edited February 10, 2023 by ZUHFB

[Lost-Savage-XIII]

On 2/6/2023 at 2:45 PM, ZUHFB said:

I left the team after I realized buyers are unable to get the required amounts in legit ways. 

OK so start another team that sells for less, what is stopping you from fixing the prices to what you think they should be. You sell them for a 7 Billion, you would make 200 in a week lol!

[ZUHFB]

51 minutes ago, Lost-Savage-XIII said:

OK so start another team that sells for less, what is stopping you from fixing the prices to what you think they should be. You sell them for a 7 Billion, you would make 200 in a week lol!

I guess common sense is stopping me from doing that?

#1 As already explained I have no need for credits

#2 Sales are a big time investment, its just not worth 7b, BUT 70-80b per run is a fine price IF the legacy cap wouldn't be 100b. My problem is not that sales are happening at all, my problem is that they cannot exist without RMT in their current state.

#3 I can't do it alone, I planned more than 50 HE runs, for a while I planned all sales on tulak hord too, I did my fair share of planning and who would want to help me sale? Any seller would be stupid to take buyers away from teams where they could earn more credits (and then sell more to 3rd party, or get more collections % - pretty much 50/50).

#4 Lockouts, I don't have that many lockouts.

I'm just against RMT as should be anybody not directly profiting of it, and so should be bioware. I'm not against sales in general, but if I were to sell RIGHT NOW I'd practically be forced to RMT, as explaid above too, and that is the problem

[Lost-Savage-XIII]

On 2/12/2023 at 3:25 AM, ZUHFB said:

I'm just against RMT as should be anybody not directly profiting of it, and so should be bioware. I'm not against sales in general, but if I were to sell RIGHT NOW I'd practically be forced to RMT, as explaid above too, and that is the problem

OK I get that honestly, I do, if its personal to you but BW prays you spend every penny you own on this game just keep playing. They give content that doesn't work, they take months to repair ANYTHING EXCEPT what hurts the economy INGAME, then they shut it down immediately. They keep giving reskinned gear and mounts on the CM, YET if you want one go ahead SPEND REAL MONEY you can get it! Oh, you want more, SPEND MORE REAL MONEY!

But if you spend years learning the Ops, grinding the Ops, CLEARING THE OPS! Yet the WINGS are the ONLY guaranteed drop 1 per OP not the whole team just one! (2 in 16). I could be wrong but isn't that the ONLY guaranteed drop? So you could clear EVERY NiM OP in one week and yet one ONE person on the team is GUARATEED to get a mount!

Yet all that time and work and the dedication to LEARNING HOW THE GAME WORKS!!! counts for ZERO!! Mounts not LEGACY, some titles are not legacy! Why not?

Why help BW then they keep giving everthing away from NiM raiders, the Rakata gear was at one point a symbol of that, now you can buy it, never do a NiM Op, never do a HM Op and have the same gear as NiM raiders who earned it! Then they add a new gear lvl with a complete different currency specified to an OP (ONE) OP NOT ALL JUST ONE! Then oh to get the full set you have to do the whole OP what 20 times? so that means how many weeks doing that OP from start to finish 1 to 2 months to learn/clear/get on farm. Question how many times did R-4 bug on your team? How long did it take to fix? Oh BTW the special mount in the hardest (supposed to be) OP IS NOT GUARANTEED. What bonus does a raider get that they haven't taken or watered down! They took away NiM OP yes the easy ones but great PROG. 

EVERYTHING that you achieve in game win in game EARN IN GAME should be legacy! Its EARNED.

NOPE SPEND REAL MONEY IF YOU WANT ANYTHING FOR ALL YOUR CAHRACTERS! PLUS DO OUR "SPECIAL" OP TO GET GEAR!!! (we will fix it sooner or later right)

[ZUHFB]

Kinda missed my point. 

It's not that stuff is hard to get or whatever, it's just that sale raids in general aren't a problem because if raiders decide they can carry someone and get them something for credits it's still the people who learned the ops that are deciding if they want to sale or not. My problem is rather that the quantities of credits (or other currencies like hypercrates) are just too big. It's not manageable anymore. The choice I'd have to make (and many like me have made) is: "Start selling credits and continue raiding" vs. "Stop having fun with friends in sales when all I want is to raid". Naturally I too didn't want to stop, but the environment got too toxic, I believe it got so toxic because a mistake could make someone lose IRL money. So I decided to stop. 

All of a sudden I don't have to worry about who to pick for a sale so we beat the operation, I have to think about how to store my credits! What do you think the sellers do? Collections %? Sure some do that, but others just sell their credits for real life profit, either to the buyers themselves or third party websites. They offer hypercrates now because sale raids sold them. I don't care that they profit, I care that buyers have to buy credits if they want affordable sales! 

Sales are just too directly tight to RMT these days. The game isn't profiting, I am not profiting and quite frankly nobody is besides the few people who decide they do not care about breaking the terms of service. It's blatantly obvious. 

Naturally bioware is ignoring this like all important issues that actually need addressing this century. 

[winpersec]

13 hours ago, Lost-Savage-XIII said:

[some gibberish]

Are you a chatbot?

[Lost-Savage-XIII]

7 hours ago, winpersec said:

Are you a chatbot?

Was there one thing wrong with what I said? EVERYTHING was true. WHAT YOU EARN you cannot make legacy, WHAT YOU BUY, you can BUY legacy. Is that wrong? 

[ZUHFB]

1 hour ago, Lost-Savage-XIII said:

Was there one thing wrong with what I said? EVERYTHING was true. WHAT YOU EARN you cannot make legacy, WHAT YOU BUY, you can BUY legacy. Is that wrong? 

Nothing is wrong if it's your opinion. But it's not what the thread is about really.

[Lost-Savage-XIII]

24 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

Nothing is wrong if it's your opinion. But it's not what the thread is about really.

This thread is based on an opinion that doing sales runs is bad for BW, and I am pointing out that that OPINION has a hole in it IMHO! That's how you debate.

[ZUHFB]

50 minutes ago, Lost-Savage-XIII said:

This thread is based on an opinion that doing sales runs is bad for BW, and I am pointing out that that OPINION has a hole in it IMHO! That's how you debate.

Look, what you wrote makes no sense. It's unrelated to sales and I don't see it, I'm not gonna respond to this any further because it leads nowhere. You didn't devalue any of my points and just sad "it's bad not all stuff is legacy bound" which is the case for sales and normal raiding so it is a different issue that sale raids are. I don't want this to be a thread where its meaning gets lost in arguing.