Feedback from a new PvP er - FIRST POST

[mCion]

Hello,

This is my first post here. I did not willingly participate in PvP prior to PvP Seasons. I recognize that this patch was for players like me, that do not normally participate in PvP, giving me a reason to do so (PvP Seasons rewards)

So, from someone who was the target audience for this change, here is some feedback:

1- I like the PvP Seasons idea. It makes me, a non PvPer want to PvP

2- ****There appears to be no matchmaking of any sort**** I mean that matches are extremely one sided most of the time. There needs to be a hidden ELO or MMR or some other hidden ranking number, and the matchmaker needs to take it into consideration. I can say this with confidence, either there is no matchmaking that considers hidden ELO or MMR, or it is not working as intended. In no multiplayer game with proper matchmaking there should be win rates of 25% or below, or wins of 70% or above, but here there is. When you see stomps one way or the other, or a 1v3 and the 1 win, something is wrong. I would happily wait longer in queue for better matchmaking. Better to have fewer funner matches (win or lose) than lots of crappy matches (makes you feel like you wasted your time independent if u win or lose)

3- medals for Warzones is near impossible to get 8. On that topic, it would be nice to know what medals there are to even get.

4- Advancing on PvP seasons seems very very grindy, more than gearing or other PvE content. IF this 7.2 patch was intended for casuals or non PvPers like me, then there should be less grind. IF I am wrong and the 7.2 patch was intended for try hard PvPers, then a lot of grind is fine I suppose, but then there should be a ranked PvP?. I think 7.2 was intended for casuals like me, so the grind is 8 to 10 times the amount of time of grinding compared to PvE seasons objectives.

 

Overall I appreciate the 7.2 patch, has me trying something new, but I can see myself wanting to quit in a week or two if all matches are lopsided as they are (lack of proper matchmaking).

Hope some dev finds the viewpoint of a new person useful. I imagine the forums are full of long timers.

Thanks.

 

edit: FYI posted this with over 30 matches since 7.2.

edit 2: adjusted a number for clarity.

My Economy, Supply, Markets suggestion https://forums.swtor.com/topic/926718-economy-comprehensive-suggestions-gtn-credit-flows-market-participation-market-regulation-etc/

Edited December 21, 2022 by mCion

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

I understand where you are coming from, however you need to understand that there are players of various skill levels playing PVP, who all deserve to progress in the season. There is always going to be one player who is the "worst" in the match. If there was some sort of matchmaking, then most likely, the team with the worst player is going to lose. This creates a very negative experience for that player. In order for PVP to be a positive experience, random teams allows everyone to win at a random rate, and no one will constantly lose games because they are bad. 

 

Further, skill based matchmaking is a remnant of the Ranked system that SWTOR used to have. That system fostered a lot of toxicity and negativity. Since Bioware is trying to move as far away from that kind of environment as possible, they should try to keep current PVP as different as possible, in order to encourage positivity.

[JackieKo]

11 hours ago, mCion said:

 

Hope some dev finds the viewpoint of a new person useful. I imagine the forums are full of long timers.

Thanks.

 

edit: FYI posted this with over 30 matches since 7.2.

Absolutely, this perspective is very helpful. It's always important for us to pull feedback from as many perspectives as possible, so appreciate the write up! 

[Exedong]

My only gripe are the arena weeklies, and since you need 25 of them to get the last 6 points of 20 it's gonna be really grindy, if instead the final chievo gave 1-2 tokens instead of 5 and the 25 wz/arena weeklie/medals gave 2 each if would be better imho, now you are forced to grind both WZ and Arenas if you want to buy a 20 token reward at the end of the season.

[WHstwroATo]

Also a non PvPer though not new to it when last played pvp over 6 months ago and now with the season started trying it again.

At the time got tired and stopped due to the same point about one sided matches where you will either win with little to no effort or lose without having any kind of real chance which seems to happen a bit too many times for it to be fun in the end, would like to see more matches where you don't know which side would win until the end be it win or lose.

[OutsiderJediSam]

As a pvp "reg" player.....I have to say this is not a good change.  You can say you removed ranked, but in fact with the new system, it feels more like you have turned unranked into a form of ranked, even if not the full version.  I understand that the season has to have objectives, and that pvp is sorta based on being "good" instead of just participating, but in it's current state, the premades from the ranked community are just absolutely destroying us 'regs."  So, the ranked win again and the "regs" are gonna pull out, I know I am considering it.  I really want to do the season, but it's gonna be too much of a grind to even enjoy at this point.  I know some will say, I just need to get bettter and I admit I do, but the issue is....I could hold my own before, now I can't and the devs themselves claimed this change was basically a punishment to the toxic ranked community and to help the "regs", yet the result is pretty much the opposite......that's very disappointing.

I would add, I could care less about the ranked being "toxic" or "punished"....them having ranked for themselves was fine, and losing every once in a while in regs when they came in was alright, but this change....like I said, exact opposite effect of what was indicated....that's not good imo

Edited December 19, 2022 by OutsiderJediSam
Clarification

[joshrva]

15 hours ago, Mycroft-Tarkin said:

I understand where you are coming from, however you need to understand that there are players of various skill levels playing PVP, who all deserve to progress in the season. There is always going to be one player who is the "worst" in the match. If there was some sort of matchmaking, then most likely, the team with the worst player is going to lose. This creates a very negative experience for that player. In order for PVP to be a positive experience, random teams allows everyone to win at a random rate, and no one will constantly lose games because they are bad. 

That's not how matchmaking works. With matchmaking, the worst player would be matched up with better players and the teams should be evenly matched. In ranked, it's only a negative experience for the better players who consistently get the worst player and have to carry him/her, however, in 8s one person isn't going to decide a win/loss, and in arenas they're probably not going to either with the average skill level in arenas currently.

Edited December 19, 2022 by joshrva

[Stellarcrusade]

16 hours ago, Mycroft-Tarkin said:

I understand where you are coming from, however you need to understand that there are players of various skill levels playing PVP, who all deserve to progress in the season. There is always going to be one player who is the "worst" in the match. If there was some sort of matchmaking, then most likely, the team with the worst player is going to lose. This creates a very negative experience for that player. In order for PVP to be a positive experience, random teams allows everyone to win at a random rate, and no one will constantly lose games because they are bad. 

 

Further, skill based matchmaking is a remnant of the Ranked system that SWTOR used to have. That system fostered a lot of toxicity and negativity. Since Bioware is trying to move as far away from that kind of environment as possible, they should try to keep current PVP as different as possible, in order to encourage positivity.

What this reply means is, since you are new your job is to never have any fun, but to keep playing forever, never having a chance to win - all for the good of the veterans.  Problem is, no-one will continue to play just to make his team punching bags.  New players want to feel that they can have a good game to contribute to their team's success.  And  no player should EVER stay with a game that enforces a 70% loss rate.  The game devs should listen to this player, and put in a skills based matchmaker.  This will grow the participation base instead of scaring it away.  I too would GLADLY wait a bit longer for a close matchup every game.  And I'm not a noob.

[Hudlar]

I've been playing PVP a little longer than the OP, since I started playing matches for Galactic Seasons, but I think I'm still in the same basic category. The PVP season is definitely a motivator for me to play more, though I'm not expecting to get to the end of the track with the amount I'm able/willing to play. I'm actually sorry that they included the ranked replica rewards--it has obviously created a lot of hard feelings that could have been avoided. I would have been completely fine with whatever new rewards/reskins the art department designed.

As far as matchmaking, I think they actually do try, but it depends how many people are in the queue. I'm on Star Forge, and it at least seems like the matches I've been in have been more even when I've queued closer to prime time for the server. (Though maybe that's just a coincidence.) But I completely agree with the OP that it's no fun to get curbstomped by a team that's a million times better. I'd much rather wait longer for a match or not get a match at all than play a starring role in Bambi Meets Godzilla. 

As far as medals go, I agree with the OP (and everyone) that it's been very difficult to get 8 medals consistently in warzones, even when focusing on objectives. I used to get to the GS goal of 45 medals very easily in the course of playing the PVP weekly, but that's definitely not the case now. I hope the devs will make medals a little easier to get. If that doesn't seem like a good idea, for whatever reason, I hope they will at least reduce the number required for the GS goal to 25 to match the number required for the GSF goal.

[AldoraTheFirst]

I am a regular casual PVPer, and I really used to enjoy PvP. I must say that with this new update, I don't enjoy it at all. My IR is 332 and I know my rotations, which puts me in a position of an average player. However, since the update, I usually am teamed up with people who have IR around 325, and we play against those of 336+, which makes impossible for us to win. I remember that before the update I could win weekly PVP rewards quite easily, because of x3 for wins. Now, I still  didn't get my Arena reward because you ask for 24 Arenas, and match players who are not even close to each other skills. Because of that, it became quite dull for me, and I don't really want to queue that often nowadays. I don't get enough rewards, and I don't have fun because I play with people whose skills are way better than mine which makes it impossible for my to win medals or matches. It just lost its fun.

[OutsiderJediSam]

1 hour ago, AldoraTheFirst said:

I am a regular casual PVPer, and I really used to enjoy PvP. I must say that with this new update, I don't enjoy it at all. My IR is 332 and I know my rotations, which puts me in a position of an average player. However, since the update, I usually am teamed up with people who have IR around 325, and we play against those of 336+, which makes impossible for us to win. I remember that before the update I could win weekly PVP rewards quite easily, because of x3 for wins. Now, I still  didn't get my Arena reward because you ask for 24 Arenas, and match players who are not even close to each other skills. Because of that, it became quite dull for me, and I don't really want to queue that often nowadays. I don't get enough rewards, and I don't have fun because I play with people whose skills are way better than mine which makes it impossible for my to win medals or matches. It just lost its fun.

this is a perfect explanation of my experience as well....I can play the matches for those achievements for the pvp season, but wins/medals....totally impossible without sheer amounts of luck, time, and misery at the expense of time spent playing other parts of the game....I would assume the idea is for people to be able to choose to play ALL content if they can, not be pushed away from certain ones or have to use an exorbitant amount of time to the point they can't play the other parts of the game

I know we should be constructive, but my negative experience is what I can tell you about to help explain the situation......I wouldn't begin to know how to code to fix the game, nor is it my place to spend hours figuring out how to fix it - altho the previous version was much better, there's a start

[KumbayaGOD]

8 hours ago, Exedong said:

My only gripe are the arena weeklies, and since you need 25 of them to get the last 6 points of 20 it's gonna be really grindy, if instead the final chievo gave 1-2 tokens instead of 5 and the 25 wz/arena weeklie/medals gave 2 each if would be better imho, now you are forced to grind both WZ and Arenas if you want to buy a 20 token reward at the end of the season.

i agree BW should drop the weeklies for arena lower i am thinking mayybe 15 point , now just too much in my opinion

[varietasplus]

Matches are one-sided because:

1. Maps are not designed properly for turning the tides or provide alternative ways to win.

2. Class-balancing is terrible conceptually and most importantly not PVP focused,

3. Average player skill level is very low and they are ignorant of objectives.

4. It literally takes years of practise to master your class and learn at least the fundaments of other classes to be competitive but hardly anyone is willing to put that much effort into the game.

 

Getting 8 medals is way too easy: you fart in a warzone and you already get a medal for a 30k hit. If you play objectives with your team (even if you lose), you can easily get 4 more medals. Rest is coming from fighting. If you have taunt or off-heals, you don't even have to do damage. Arenas are a joke, you don't even have to break a sweat to get 8 medals.

 

Map design, class balance, match-making and medal system needs total revamp, but the dev team does not seem to have the proper analyst for that and honestly these problems have been present since the very beginning.