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On the balance of Tanks


Exocor

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So, first of all, I don't want this to be a "I'm whining about my main class being nerfed"-thread. I'd like to bring up valuable feedback and suggestions for how things could improve.

Needless to say that Tanks are currently in a pretty decent spot. I mained Kinetic Combat/Darkness since 4.0 and cleared all Raidcontent with that class. We all know that the spec was pretty OP for quite some time - double stance, force speed, aoe-damage reduction. The defining aspect of that spec was, for me, always the ability to counter high damage spikes with the various specific DCD's. I did deep dives into the combat logs to figure out timings for certain damage spikes in order to use those DCD's to avoid them.

 

Powertechs always had a concept very different from Shadows. They had comparably high base-armor and damage reduction and long, generalized DCD's. Both Fuel and Energy Shield did a good job against everything. Additionally, Powertechs fielded decent Tank-DPS and were often preferred in fights without any major damage spikes, but where more DPS would enable the group to avoid a lot of incoming damage.

 

Guardian/Juggernaut Tanks have, for me, always filled a place in between. They had fewer abilities to take spikes than Shadows/Assassins, but more than Powertechs/Vanguards. They also did decent DPS (most among all three Tank specs right now as I understand). But I have to admit that they never were a viable option for me, simply because they could do everything good, but nothing great, unlike the other two Tank-specs.

 

However, with late 6.0 and now 7.x, Shadows have lost their uniqueness in spike-mitigation. Powertechs/Vanguards can now make use of a legendary, adding a 3-second 1,3m damage absorb shield to their Energy Yield. They became viable in places where they've been nothing more than a meme before (Brontes NiM comes to mind). In my opinion, that is completely fine from a certain point of view. In my opinion however, one Tank-class should not be better in almost all things than others. Powertechs right now field the most raid utility (Rebounder), the best mobility (long hydraulics right from the assembly line), great DPS and finally great spike resistance with Energy Yield. Meanwhile, Shadows have even lost their last unique raid utility, the stealth rez. I have to admit that I rerolled to PT/VG in most boss fights, because it is simply the better tank now. But as mentioned above, that is not necessarily bad. Shadows had a long time where they were on top. Powertechs deserve to be on top now.

 

What I am suggesting is, to again give the tank classes some kind of uniqueness, making them superior to the other two classes in at least one department. As I understand it, Juggernauts/Guardians do the most DPS right now, that is fine. Powertechs/Vanguards are the most stable tanks right now, giving the best raid utility with sonic rebounder. The niche I would suggest for the shadow is mobility: We already have decent mobility skills with force speed and Phantom Stride. As an addition I would suggest to bring back a long lost ability that I'm still mourning for to this day: The Phase Walk. Boss positioning is as important as mitigation in this game. Phase Walk would enable Shadows and Assassins to get a clear edge over the other tank specs in that department, while not making it completely overpowered or taking away from the other tank specs in what they excel in. In addition, I would change the Shadow Tank Legendary, that grants knockback-immunity on deflection to grant knockback-immunity on phase walk instead, making it a bit more useful as well.

 

I have to admit that I've never played Ranked PvP in a professional or semi-professional manner, so I'm unable to think of the implications of that change in that area. I'd like to hear thoughts on that. I can see a problem with Shadow Tanks porting themselves 60 meters away when they're on 10% HP to avoid dying - but a simple fix on not being able to use Phase Walk while being stunned or rooted could address that problem in my opinion.

 

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2 hours ago, Exocor said:

What I am suggesting is, to again give the tank classes some kind of uniqueness, making them superior to the other two classes in at least one department. As I understand it, Juggernauts/Guardians do the most DPS right now, that is fine. Powertechs/Vanguards are the most stable tanks right now, giving the best raid utility with sonic rebounder. The niche I would suggest for the shadow is mobility: We already have decent mobility skills with force speed and Phantom Stride. As an addition I would suggest to bring back a long lost ability that I'm still mourning for to this day: The Phase Walk. Boss positioning is as important as mitigation in this game. Phase Walk would enable Shadows and Assassins to get a clear edge over the other tank specs in that department, while not making it completely overpowered or taking away from the other tank specs in what they excel in. In addition, I would change the Shadow Tank Legendary, that grants knockback-immunity on deflection to grant knockback-immunity on phase walk instead, making it a bit more useful as well.

 

 

Signed. 

And speaking of mobility.... guardian/juggernaut tank is now the only tank without any speed buff, and it really needs one.  

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tank balance is pretty good all in all, some classes could use some nerfs to avoid them being overpowered in certain content but across the board we are in a good spot, not as good as in last expansion but still pretty neat, with the upcoming changes to tanks i think it will be improved even more to be more balanced

Edited by RikuvonDrake
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Looking at all the tanks the only tank I feel is lacking is jugg. And it is lacking in a singular way. Reflect and Mad dash should not be on the same selection, at least for tank spec. For DPS specs it makes sense, it is like having to choose shroud on a dps spec vs tank having it naturally. I think the best solution would be have jugg tank have reflect naturally but keep mad dash as a choice.

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4 minutes ago, supercometl said:

Looking at all the tanks the only tank I feel is lacking is jugg. And it is lacking in a singular way. Reflect and Mad dash should not be on the same selection, at least for tank spec. For DPS specs it makes sense, it is like having to choose shroud on a dps spec vs tank having it naturally. I think the best solution would be have jugg tank have reflect naturally but keep mad dash as a choice.

Completely disagree here. Having immunity to all damage (in PvE) with maddash is already super strong, having reflect too is just nuts.

The way both are used are so vastly different that there is a clear winner for every single boss in the game. Most of the time it ends up being maddash, but then it's often just used as a worse shroud. The true problem juggernaut has is that, if reflect isn't useful, it is just a worse sin tank. Even after defense cap is not only reachable for a juggernaut, its easier just to get pred or oil slick. Juggernaut is by no means bad, but it just feels like playing a garbage truck since the only movement available is both leaps and rule of two, mobility is a VERY underrated factor to tanks, which is another problem - no this gets not fixed by having dash since then the defensive value is lost for movement and usually not the reason to take it.

Lastly juggernaut has no meaningful uptime buff it needs to maintain, dark ward and heat blast are far superior and juggernaut is left behind with 10% DR for people around him, which sounds strong but isn't.

Having 25s maddash again would fix most of the problems this spec has. At least that is my opinion and the most fair buff I could imagine.

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10% DR also counts for yourself, and is actually pretty damn strong on yourself. If at 50% DR, the additional 10% reduces damage taken by 20%. We generally have a bit less nowadays, so it's a bit below 20% out of every hit. Quite a nice defensive boost. Honestly about the same level as Dark Ward. Less mitigation potential but more reliable. And it's miles ahead of Heat Blast, which only buffs absorb (so you take even less when shielding, but the same when failing to shield). If you shield you're generally fine, extra absorb is okay, but not that great. 

 

I'd love to see the mobility on Enrage come back, that was a great tool for Juggs. As an addition, it'd be great if Reflect also blocked melee damage. Doesn't even need to reflect, just make it a more reliable damage avoidance skill, and more of a competitor to Mad Dash. Mad Dash always felt a little bit out of flavour for me on Jugg, but it's become so essential. It'd be nice if Reflect was more equal in mitigation potential (except for a handful of fights where reflects are very important it's Mad Dash all the way).

 

And to stay on topic of the thread, phase walk for Sins would be great. Its usefulness always varied a lot fight by fight, but it was absolutely amazing on some fights. And would be a welcome addition to give Sin tanks back some uniqueness among tanks. If too strong for dps in pvp, make it tank exclusive.

Edited by AdjeYo
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