The Esseles, and other weird scenarios for a Republic Soldier

[InfiniteEscuro]

Playing as a Trooper is wild so far. Only just got to Coruscant, and it's completely baffling how First Officer Haken (the man who takes over command of the Esseles during the Flashpoint to Coruscant) straight up tries to bribe you, a Lieutenant of the top Special Forces squad in the Republic, to leave a Republic Official, an Ambassador no less, with the enemy. You can tell him its treason.

But you can't... you know... do anything about it? Not even at least get the option to warn him that if he brings it up again, you'd arrest him? As a Lieutenant is likely expected to do when she witnesses a soldier not just suggesting it in a moment of fear, but actively trying to bribe you to go along with treason?

It was equally as strange on Ord Mantell when that corrupt officer, Virk, told you (within view of Jargan I might add) that he can have you reassigned anywhere he wants to get rid of you, which he almost definitely couldn't have done anyway because HAVOC SQUAD, and you can't even idly mention to Jargan, your boss at the time, "Yeah this officer literally admitted to me face-to-face that he is a corrupt [INSERT SWEAR WORD HERE] (hate censorship :/) who abuses his power and thinks he's judge, jury and executioner around here. So uh, yeah, that camera and whatnot in my armour should be proof enough for a Court Martial'n, right?"

OH! and also, just another funny thing. On the Esseles, when you confront Ironfist, he literally does a cliche evil villain slow-clap at you with his back turned. As a Jedi, it makes sense to walk up and demand his surrender. As a normal soldier with less rules, it should easily be a situation where he hears you enter, starts preparing his slow clap, and is immediately shot in the back of his helmetless head. I even just pretended that's what happened since he also died so quick, but I was like five levels over the flashpoint, even if it brought my health down and whatnot. 

First forum post, had to mildly rant about the funny state of being an apparent soldier who doesn't really seem to do much about things that a soldier should be concerned with.

[DreadtechSavant]

Well....

A lot of the conversations with enemy characters seems forced. Plus always funny how you get a lightside option or darkside option in giving the boss an option to surrender, but never any of He's/Her's troops. Then again are we expecting anything different from a story mode game..

 

Without giving away any spoilers as this is your first trooper run though, if you think that's bad, well far worse to come.

 

The dialog in all the classes is poor, the flirt options are just ridicules in what your character actually says. Even worse what some companion characters says to you (Doc in Knights female run though as an example) It is a story-based game so understand why it's done the way it is. Still a little more thought put into dialog to make it at least seem like real people are talking would be nice. 

 

You do make a good point about the trooper's camera, funny how it only mentioned or use when it's convenient for the story but ignored the rest of the time by everyone including your own character.

[EllieAnne]

I think I made a thread years ago (or maybe not) that it is impossible to play a Dark Jedi Knight in this game.  Sure you can make dark side choices but you can never really be Dark like killing someone that doesn't deserve it or betraying the Republic.

[xordevoreaux]

OP, wait till you get to Taris and one of the planetary quests...

 

Spoiler

...has you confront a group of AWOL soldiers.  You get a positive interaction for letting them remain AWOL, so as a soldier sworn to uphold the republic, you don't report these tired, put-upon, soldiers remaining AWOL, and you're supposed to feel good about that?  The evil choice is loyalty: turning them in.

 

 

[InfiniteEscuro]

Adding an addition to my own post.

The Trooper doesn't know what arrest means! :D,

There are a few points where you can offer to show mercy or accept a surrender, but your Trooper seems to believe that means, "leave the enemy to his devices,". Nope :D! It means don't shoot them :D! Nothing Else! Stop letting them walk away please :D!

I'm way more Darkside than I expected on this character because with the exception of a young soldier on Tatooine who is I think literally crying when he literally begs for mercy in a whimpering voice... every other soldier who you show mercy to, you should also be taking into custody. But nope! You let them walk away. And also, in my opinion, there are far too few scenarios where you can straight up lie. Like, "Yeah I'll let you walk, tell me the thing. Thanks. Okay, bye." *shoots the enemy*

There are only two times that comes to mind for pretending to go along with the enemy and then changing tune at the very end. The first:

Spoiler

On Coruscant, a side quest involves "cyborg sleeper agents" that are hidden in a vault refusing to come out, ensuring you they aren't a threat, and they turn out not to be afaik. But you can lie! You can say you won't hurt them and you'll let them go and then they come out. You can go, "Sike." and shoot them dead. A cool option, but still also a conversation where you should be allowed to imply through dialogue that you'll put the civilians under watch so that they can be verified. It turns out, again afaik, that this happens anyway if you spare them, but you get reprimanded for letting them walk and its treated like luck that they were not dangerous. You can't genuinely make sure, you can just get their IDs to hunt them down like some deranged psycho if it goes wrong.

And the second:

Spoiler

Markus Thul on Alderaan. He's honestly a neat guy, who through his dialogue, implies he isn't really a faithful to the Empire and is willing to leave his entire noble house due to it being "a puppet", and he of course must mean the Empire. You can agree to find his wife and kids for him to get information, and then can turn around and tell the Organa noble, "Nah, we made no deals, the three of them are yours", if you would like to. Hooray, options!.... but why only to screw over the alright people who are actually helping you? Why no, "Sike, blam blam" option for the scumbags that we should more readily try to trick?

On another note, it's funny how often as a Operative or whatever that you could sneak into an objective, not shoot a soul, then be confronted like you burned a path through the area to get there. I'm loving the game, but a lot of scenarios in it would work so much better with the creative freedom of writing a fanfic instead of actually playing the game.

[SteveTheCynic]

On 10/2/2022 at 11:56 AM, InfiniteEscuro said:

So uh, yeah, that camera and whatnot in my armour should be proof enough for a Court Martial'n, right?"

No, because Jorgan tells you right off during the first meeting, when he tells you to go to Talloran village to meet Bellis, that it is switched on after you leave the fort, and the said encounter with Virk happens *in* the fort, where the camera is, presumably, *off*.

[InfiniteEscuro]

1 hour ago, SteveTheCynic said:

No, because Jorgan tells you right off during the first meeting, when he tells you to go to Talloran village to meet Bellis, that it is switched on after you leave the fort, and the said encounter with Virk happens *in* the fort, where the camera is, presumably, *off*.

Presumably, sure. It could also easily mean that it will be turned on once you leave. And then that's it.

Regardless, it happens within clear line of sight so it's weird even without the camera that you can't tell him what happened and he's not even a little bit curious why another officer is stopping his soldiers in the hall for no good reason, since he gets on your ass for not being "fast enough" for Bellis.

[joshuadyal]

On 10/2/2022 at 5:56 AM, InfiniteEscuro said:

Playing as a Trooper is wild so far. Only just got to Coruscant, and it's completely baffling how First Officer Haken (the man who takes over command of the Esseles during the Flashpoint to Coruscant) straight up tries to bribe you, a Lieutenant of the top Special Forces squad in the Republic, to leave a Republic Official, an Ambassador no less, with the enemy. You can tell him its treason.

But you can't... you know... do anything about it? Not even at least get the option to warn him that if he brings it up again, you'd arrest him? As a Lieutenant is likely expected to do when she witnesses a soldier not just suggesting it in a moment of fear, but actively trying to bribe you to go along with treason?

It was equally as strange on Ord Mantell when that corrupt officer, Virk, told you (within view of Jargan I might add) that he can have you reassigned anywhere he wants to get rid of you, which he almost definitely couldn't have done anyway because HAVOC SQUAD, and you can't even idly mention to Jargan, your boss at the time, "Yeah this officer literally admitted to me face-to-face that he is a corrupt [INSERT SWEAR WORD HERE] (hate censorship :/) who abuses his power and thinks he's judge, jury and executioner around here. So uh, yeah, that camera and whatnot in my armour should be proof enough for a Court Martial'n, right?"

OH! and also, just another funny thing. On the Esseles, when you confront Ironfist, he literally does a cliche evil villain slow-clap at you with his back turned. As a Jedi, it makes sense to walk up and demand his surrender. As a normal soldier with less rules, it should easily be a situation where he hears you enter, starts preparing his slow clap, and is immediately shot in the back of his helmetless head. I even just pretended that's what happened since he also died so quick, but I was like five levels over the flashpoint, even if it brought my health down and whatnot. 

First forum post, had to mildly rant about the funny state of being an apparent soldier who doesn't really seem to do much about things that a soldier should be concerned with.

A few points: 1) What "The Ambassador" is doing is illegal, unethical, and in direct violation of the peace treaty. Kilgore might be a big jerk, but he's absolutely right. What she's doing is indefensible, and if the trooper had any sense, he'd hang her out to dry too. Plus, she's a demanding, entitled, bratty little princess who's super unlikeable. It's not treason to follow the stipulations of the peace treaty, it's treason to flaunt it, threatening your nation with war that it is trying to avoid. Or so it claims, although Satele Shan's dialogue shows that she talks the talk of peace, but absolutely doesn't walk the walk of peace on the Black Talon counterpart to Esseles.

2) Arrest him? You do know that there's a huge difference between soldiers and policemen, right? The military, excepting military police, generally don't have any authority to arrest anyone.

3) The Virk situation is poorly written. A lot of the "moral dilemmas" in the game are poorly written, actually, especially on the starting planets. I get more irritated by the "moral dilemmas" on Tython for the JK than the trooper, but it is odd that you can't just mention to your COs what just happened with Virk. At least give us the fig leaf that you're not sure if you can trust your CO to not be just as corrupt, or something, which would justify you taking matters into your own hands with Virk.

4) The soldier has "less rules" than the Jedi, and can therefore shoot people in the back? That's hardly on brand for a franchise that's heroic swashbuckling space opera. Plus, the Jedi don't have any rules; even in the early movies its clear that the Jedi just do whatever they want to and then come up with the most ridiculous, tortuous justification for why they can get away with it and not be the villains. The Jedi Order and its rules are a joke. The military; not so much. 

[InfiniteEscuro]

On 10/12/2022 at 1:50 PM, joshuadyal said:

2) Arrest him? You do know that there's a huge difference between soldiers and policemen, right?

Yup, and they're called Prisoners of War, and at many numerous points in the game people are taken into custody as a light side option in such a manner :D.

I simply think it should be more of a common thing. Too many mercy options involve literally letting the bad guys walk right back to their jobs unopposed for no reason.

On 10/12/2022 at 1:50 PM, joshuadyal said:

4) The soldier has "less rules" than the Jedi, and can therefore shoot people in the back? That's hardly on brand for a franchise that's heroic swashbuckling space opera.

I agree it's not on brand for Jedi. You do mean the Jedi right? You aren't calling ordinary soldiers a swashbuckling space opera that should be so honourable and perfect that they would only shoot an enemy while making eye contact right? Because you realise your first and main companion was a sniper who genuinely assassinated his targets right? And your superiors routinely order you to do dishonourable things, such as killing a group of unarmed citizens just "in case" they are a threat, right?

Anyway, sorry, passive aggressiveness aside, there is quite literally no reason for the trooper to not be allowed to cut people off during their villainous monologues or just blast them outright beforehand. If you're playing a Jedi as an actual Jedi, who only attacks in defence, then you would let people talk, and you would try to convince them to surrender. Especially since you're halfway towards being completely invincible if it's just a few guys with guns. As a soldier, you absolutely shouldn't be expected to take random chances like that, especially when the guy you're trying to kill is actively endangering a ship full of civilians.

Like I mostly said the things in the main post the way I did to be humorous, but I also thought it would be an easily agreeable thing that normal soldiers shouldn't take wild and pacifistic chances like all of that; from the whole confronting the enemy to the whole letting them just leave for "mercy" stuff.

[denavin]

On 10/1/2022 at 11:56 PM, InfiniteEscuro said:

Playing as a Trooper is wild so far. Only just got to Coruscant, and it's completely baffling how First Officer Haken (the man who takes over command of the Esseles during the Flashpoint to Coruscant) straight up tries to bribe you, a Lieutenant of the top Special Forces squad in the Republic, to leave a Republic Official, an Ambassador no less, with the enemy. You can tell him its treason.

But you can't... you know... do anything about it? Not even at least get the option to warn him that if he brings it up again, you'd arrest him? As a Lieutenant is likely expected to do when she witnesses a soldier not just suggesting it in a moment of fear, but actively trying to bribe you to go along with treason?

 

Actually you can. Though you never have proof that Haken is ever reprimanded or arrested. After you kill the Sith on Kilran's ship, before you go back to the Esseles, when you talk to ambassador Assara, choose option  #2 instead of #1, Ask to talk to her first. When you return to the Esseles, exchange between Ambassador Assara and Haken will be most interesting to say the least....

Edited October 16, 2022 by denavin

[joshuadyal]

Quote

Yup, and they're called Prisoners of War, and at many numerous points in the game people are taken into custody as a light side option in such a manner :D.

You don't have prisoners of war when 1) you're not at war, and 2) the person that you're "arresting" is on your own side anyway. Plus, you don't "arrest" prisoners of war. You take them prisoner. There's actually a big difference between the two concepts. You're blurring the military and the police. Which, to be fair, the writers do a lot too. But they do have completely different purposes and therefore completely different roles and responsibilities.

Quote

I agree it's not on brand for Jedi. You do mean the Jedi right? You aren't calling ordinary soldiers a swashbuckling space opera that should be so honourable and perfect that they would only shoot an enemy while making eye contact right? Because you realise your first and main companion was a sniper who genuinely assassinated his targets right? And your superiors routinely order you to do dishonourable things, such as killing a group of unarmed citizens just "in case" they are a threat, right?

You're saying that you agree, but I'm saying that the Jedi actually do that kind of crap all of the time in the movies, and the make really lousy excuses for it, like "aggressive negotiations." That's not agreement. What it's not on brand for is the entire genre that Star Wars represents, which is heroic swashbuckling space opera. Not only should the Jedi knock it off, but it wouldn't make sense for the trooper to do it either. 

Also, Havoc Squad are not "ordinary soldiers". Also the fact that Aric was part of a sniper unit doesn't change the genre of the game or the franchise into space Splinter Cell, which is what you seem to be implying. It's still Heroic Swashbuckling Space Opera(TM) because that's what Star Wars is, regardless of the character; Jedi or not. Han Solo is a Heroic Swashbuckling Space Opera hero too, and he's not exactly super honorable, especially when we first meet him.

Edited October 16, 2022 by joshuadyal
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