PvP GS bolstering, possible exploit?

[DarkKnightGidus]

This may be a well known issue, I'm not sure. Simply posting so maybe BioWare will do something to fix what I see as a problem. It seems at this point in time the max gear score for PvP stands at 328. In theory that makes it easy enough to achieve while allowing for a level playing field for all players at that level where then skill in your class would take over.

 

However, that is just simply not the case. As I said, I'm sure this is a known problem. But apparently you can trick the bolster system to give you a very unfair advantage. You can equip much higher GS pieces and a single lower GS piece to bring your average below the 328 cap while still reaping the benefits, ie: stats, of the higher GS pieces.

 

An example I just found out: You can equip full 340 R4 Anomaly gear while replacing a single relic to 62 GS (maybe even higher, idk but this is a true example I saw myself) which brings your average GS to 319. That same player, when in comparison to a full 328 GS player (myself, both are the same specs) had: +40k additional HP, +9k additional damage, and significantly more crit and alacrity (forgot to write down those numbers). Seeing the damage they dealt first-hand compared to following their exact rotation vs my damage was just pitiful, not to mention the increased survivability they had against other players. To me this seems like an obvious exploit.

 

Now obviously PvP in itself isn't balanced to begin with between the classes.. But this just adds to the problem and seems like such an easy problem to fix. Why not just simply cap the stat benefit of each individual slot to be equivalent to a 328 GS piece in PvP scenarios?

[Beyrahl]

You could use ossus relics that have critical on them still. Would be better.

Also, similar things happened in 2.0 but we had expertise then.

This is just a problem with trying to cap pvp if im being honest. It won't ever work right i don't think.

add all your items up then divide by 14.

328.449 is when it rounds to 329.

Stay under that and you're fine.

 

Definitely should get fixed, but also why cap pvp.

[Wimbleton]

Last time it was those Wind Relics... its always something. They never consider min/maxing bolstering as an exploit, or at least they've never done anything about it. Just do it yourself if that stat gap matters to you.

[Beyrahl]

Yep, always bolster issues. This time bolster is basically non-existent so this is more in line with brutalizer, pve gear / matrix relic. While this isn't abusing bolster it's abusing item-level calculation.

[DarkKnightGidus]

How is it not abusing the bolster system? Purposefully going out of your way to ensure your stats are significantly higher than other players to me sure sounds like an exploit however you try to explain it. I understand it bases your overall GS when bolstering, which is where the 328 cap is taken into account, but to be able to benefit from the highest end-game PvE gears' stats when there's supposed to be a cap in the instanced PvP game?

[Beyrahl]

How is it not abusing the bolster system? Purposefully going out of your way to ensure your stats are significantly higher than other players to me sure sounds like an exploit however you try to explain it. I understand it bases your overall GS when bolstering, which is where the 328 cap is taken into account, but to be able to benefit from the highest end-game PvE gears' stats when there's supposed to be a cap in the instanced PvP game?

 

I thought I was clear but okay.

"Bolster is near non-existent" This is a reference to the fact missing augments you don't get bolstered for them which is a massive amount of stats. The bolster is so set so low it doesn't impact anyone with even starter gear at all. While it's there, it's really not helping anyone but lowbies.

 

The stats are directly coming from the gear, you have these same stats inside and outside of the warzone, it's abusing the item level calculation to not get "Stat capped" if you will when you hit above 328. This isn't really a bolster thing, something more complicated to fix. The bolster is already gutted as is.

 

For example the current BiS for a PvE player.

326 ear

334 implant

334 implant

340 gear

340 gear

340 gear

340 gear

340 gear

340 gear

340 gear

306 belt

306 wrist

306 relic

306 relic

4598 / 14 = 328.4285714285714

328.449 rounds up. So it's just under.

making this bis without giving up relics procs

You'd have the same stats in and outside of warzones minus crystals as they don't work at all in PvP right now.

 

Don't get me wrong I don't like this at all.

I am not sure how they'll fix it other than uncapping pvp gear or adding expertise back. Expertise played a big role when PvE & PvP gear were separate. We don't have that currently.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Beyrahl

[Samcuu]

What is the stat gain tho? I've min maxed my gear in a similar way only having access to 330 purple gear and, the difference seems very negligible moving from 328s to a mix and match of 330 gear and lower rated relics ect. A very small amount of ppl are going to have access to 340 gear, and what percentage of that 1% who clear r4 nim, are pvpers? I know most pvpers aren't going to go through all the trouble of pve, and specifically r4 nim, for an extra 100 crit points for example.

[DarkKnightGidus]

Your argument isn't going to make me believe it isn't an exploit though. The 'Gear Score' showing up in your character pane stating you're at 328 while wearing full 340 gear benefiting from the stats is the problem.

 

Sin with the exact same spec. Augs. Only difference I have full 328, showing 328 avg GS in the character pane, while they have the same but all but 1 piece is 340. You're telling me 40,000 HP, a significant increase to damage, crit, and alacrity IS NOT a big difference?

 

I don't care that the Gear Score of both him and I are the same. THE STATS ARE NOT.

Edited August 26, 2022 by DarkKnightGidus
Adding in last sentence.

[Samcuu]

Yeah seems like a big chunk of stats. Cease is the stats nerd maybe he can lay out to us just how much extra stats they are gaining. But again I'm not gonna get triggered over it because it seems to me like it's going to be a rare occurrence that you'll see anyone in full 340 gear in warzones. Hardcore pvpers won't do the r4 nim op. And if they do hey good on them that they went through the effort to get the highest tier gear in the game /clap. We are all able to accomplish this if you are so inclined *shrug Edited August 26, 2022 by Samcuu

[Beyrahl]

Your argument isn't going to make me believe it isn't an exploit though. The 'Gear Score' showing up in your character pane stating you're at 328 while wearing full 340 gear benefiting from the stats is the problem.

 

Sin with the exact same spec. Augs. Only difference I have full 328, showing 328 avg GS in the character pane, while they have the same but all but 1 piece is 340. You're telling me 40,000 HP, a significant increase to damage, crit, and alacrity IS NOT a big difference?

 

I don't care that the Gear Score of both him and I are the same. THE STATS ARE NOT.

 

It's not an argument just trying to educate you on the issue at hand, without actually knowing how it works making blind fires at it or suggesting fixes will likely just cause more problems. I think you've got it down though, but it's not anything really to do with augments that were a reference as in how useless bolster is now. This isn't a bolster thing and I think we've moved past that now.

While saying it's full 340 is misleading I get what you mean. People should be aware of why and how this is working and that it is not because of the bolster. This is purely a gear score calculation which I felt I covered pretty well, but to make it simple again. Add all your gear scores for each item then divide it by 14, this will be your sheet gear score and this is what the game bases stat cap on. If you hit 329 stat cap is applied, meaning cheesing it like so is possible.

With the example I gave earlier you can see how it concludes just pushing near the end of 328, but it is still in fact 328, meaning it won't be capped in PvP. From what I have seen there is an endurance hard cap with the setup I currently use, I lose about 1500 health from it to be exact. This makes it hard for me to simulate what the min-maxed setup would give but, I will do it.

Now is it an exploit? Eh, the calculation is working as intended, but. Is manipulation intended? Probably not, so I would say it's being exploited. Have they ever punished someone for actual game-breaking exploits in regards to PvP? Not really.

There's a massive list of bugs that have been abused over the years I won't cover them all, but a few big ones.

GSF Ship parts increasing bolster.

5.0 EXP Gear.

Smuggled immunity - literally immune to damage.

And most recently crystals + augs bug. (part of why our crystals still don't work I think.)

So, if everyone understands the issue hopefully we can start suggesting fixes that will actually work and or let them know there's actually a problem and what it is. Instead of just saying PVE GEAR TOO OP IN PVP AAAAAAAAA.

Letting them understand what the problem is not only making it easier to fix but also faster to fix. The last thing we need is completely broken gear in PvP again, it was only recently we got augments to work again and we were tremendously underpowered compared to the last expansion because of it.

 

Here's the math for 340 gear min-max without giving up relics procs which I would value to be better than running 340 ear, wrist, belt, and a relic. They're low stat items minus the ear. While proc every 20s for 6s is 2,892 x2.

 

Thx for reading this mess.

306 pieces.

471 m x 2 = 942

409 e x 2 = 818

 

369 m x 2 = 738

313 e x 2 = 626

359 p x 2 = 718

 

augs

171 e x 14 = 2,394

171 p x 14 = 2,394

130 s x 14 = 1,820

 

340 purple piece

1223 m x 7 = 8,561

1450 e x 7 = 10,150

940 p x 7 = 6,580

614 s x 7 = 4,298

 

 

306 relic

526 e x 2 = 1052

184 p x 2 = 368

 

326 ear

1059 m

1250 e

532 s

810 p

 

334 implant

1151 m x2 = 2302

1362 e x2 = 2724

882 p x2 = 1764

577 s x2 = 1154

 

 

13,866 m + Base stat 1,150 = 15,016 +5% buff = 15,766

19,014 e + Base stat 1,035 = 20,049 +5% buff = 21,051

12,743 p

7,804 s

^ Raw stats from min-maxed setup.

Stimmed

 

Live min-max from a non pver.

15,694 m

20,585 e <- hitting hardcap on endurance.

12,281 p

7,395 s

Stimmed ofc.

Crystals aren't included in any of this and all augments are counted as secondary stat instead of mastery, assuming most are running critical, also it just makes the math easier in general.

 

Stat difference?

72 mastery

466 endurance ?? Assuming it probably hits hard cap too so less than this.

462 power - biggest difference right here. This is where most of the damage gain is, power will directly increase everything.

409 secondary - decent, this is helpful if you can get enough pieces to have right stats.

 

For reference - Dropping 378 power makes me lose just shy of 100 bonus melee/ranged damage. So I would safely assume around 125ish bonus melee/ranged damage. This is way less than missing your buffs rn, but still impactful. The extra critical if you can manage is well.. Unmeasurable in impact, however, I would assume it helps a good amount.

 

min-max 340 loadout I used for reference.

326 ear

334 implant

334 implant

340 gear

340 gear

340 gear

340 gear

340 gear

340 gear

340 gear

306 belt

306 wrist

306 relic

306 relic

4598 / 14 = 328.4285714285714

328.449 rounds up. So its just under.

making this bis without giving up relics procs

pver bis

 

Math check me if needed, I am a bit fried sometimes.

 

[Samcuu]

Amazing u did all that work for this, thanks Cease you rule. It's a ton of work to get all the 340 pieces for that extra power and (probably crit) as someone who is just a casual stats enjoyer, it seems to me you'd have a decent boost in dmg from that setup. However I really doubt many ppl are going to go through all that pve for the gear when it's negligible at best.

[Beyrahl]

Amazing u did all that work for this, thanks Cease you rule. It's a ton of work to get all the 340 pieces for that extra power and (probably crit) as someone who is just a casual stats enjoyer, it seems to me you'd have a decent boost in dmg from that setup. However I really doubt many ppl are going to go through all that pve for the gear when it's negligible at best.

 

The critical gain if you get the right pieces is definitely worth it imo, by that alone.

[illgot]

the best way to fix this is... everyone in PvP has the same stats based on their class.

 

yeah, it makes gearing for PvP pointless but then again I'm one for PvP being about skill and not having more stats.

[assatrap]

I thought I was clear but okay.

"Bolster is near non-existent" This is a reference to the fact missing augments you don't get bolstered for them which is a massive amount of stats. The bolster is so set so low it doesn't impact anyone with even starter gear at all. While it's there, it's really not helping anyone but lowbies.

 

The stats are directly coming from the gear, you have these same stats inside and outside of the warzone, it's abusing the item level calculation to not get "Stat capped" if you will when you hit above 328. This isn't really a bolster thing, something more complicated to fix. The bolster is already gutted as is.

 

For example the current BiS for a PvE player.

326 ear

334 implant

334 implant

340 gear

340 gear

340 gear

340 gear

340 gear

340 gear

340 gear

306 belt

306 wrist

306 relic

306 relic

4598 / 14 = 328.4285714285714

328.449 rounds up. So it's just under.

making this bis without giving up relics procs

You'd have the same stats in and outside of warzones minus crystals as they don't work at all in PvP right now.

 

Don't get me wrong I don't like this at all.

I am not sure how they'll fix it other than uncapping pvp gear or adding expertise back. Expertise played a big role when PvE & PvP gear were separate. We don't have that currently.

 

aren't those 340 gear with fixed stats in that case it will hard to get the desired 1.4 alacrity, Minimum accuracy and rest into crit. Though your damage will be higher then usual for sure but your stats will be far from optimal although you can kind probably fix that with 300 augs. Either way so few will have this and perfected the mini-maxing, that it will barely have any effect in pvp. And a slight gear advantage is only noticebale if that particulary player has superior pvp skills.A skilled pvp player can (e.x 324 rated) can any day of the week beat a full 328 maxed out mediocre pvp player. But if both are equally skilled then yeah gearing will have major impact.

[Beyrahl]

Little confused about the previous comment.

 

But if we want to fix this, the easiest fix is adding back in expertise as this is what expertise was for. Or just uncap PvP, when expertise was removed there were no longer caps on PvP gear nor a stat cap in PvP. For example, 5.0 kicked off with a 250-item level bolster when the highest gear available on launch of 5.0 was only 240 or 242? People quite enjoyed this minus the bolster exploits like EXP gear being insane. Most players didn't really need to bother gearing at all as the difference was very small. Now we've got better gear in PvE and a cap in PvP while we're now at a difference of 12 total item levels. While it's not too much right now, potentially lowering the gap between each other, adding expertise, or just removing the cap overall may be the move.

There's a reason we stopped going this route and removed expertise. I know a lot of people thought adding expertise back into the game would fix things, but really its only purpose was to prevent people from just running PvE gear instead of PvP gear. Pretty clear if we want to cap PvP having expertise overall just fixes most of the issues, with bolster being almost none existent it would likely kill all sorts of possible gear mix-matching altogether.

[Wimbleton]

I'm starting to think that gaming bolster is intended and that true pvp progression is a spreadsheet on how to game bolster.

 

For real tho, Bolster needs to get you right under the max PvP progression and stat caps need to examine items individually and punish going over a gearscore cap to some point less than cap, or make it land at a non customizable stat position at cap gear score.

 

Then, with pvp currency, allow stat customization with mods. The mods could be unlocked with progression by either gearscore of mod or type (barrel/hilt last etc).

 

Lastly, balance stat pools so that they require you to pick and choose and there are trade-offs. No more of the "take alacrity till X, then Crit till X - literately everyone".

 

For PvE, have their gear score go above PvP, so that the modable stuff is not important to them or required, but PvErs can jump into pvp with competitive gear unlike trying to PvP without pvp stat.

[Beyrahl]

I'm starting to think that gaming bolster is intended and that true pvp progression is a spreadsheet on how to game bolster.

 

For real tho, Bolster needs to get you right under the max PvP progression and stat caps need to examine items individually and punish going over a gearscore cap to some point less than cap, or make it land at a non customizable stat position at cap gear score.

 

Then, with pvp currency, allow stat customization with mods. The mods could be unlocked with progression by either gearscore of mod or type (barrel/hilt last etc).

 

Lastly, balance stat pools so that they require you to pick and choose and there are trade-offs. No more of the "take alacrity till X, then Crit till X - literately everyone".

 

For PvE, have their gear score go above PvP, so that the modable stuff is not important to them or required, but PvErs can jump into pvp with competitive gear unlike trying to PvP without pvp stat.

 

Sadly this isn't happening due to bolster.

If the bolster was flat-out removed, this is still a thing.

Currently as previously explained bolster is really only helping sub-level 80s. As it should be imo.

As I would love all stats to be weighted equally, we have limitations as the game runs on 32bit which is the reason alacrity doesn't work right for example. I am all for some extra stats if you go through the effort, but some people like OP think it's incredibly strong and or busted. I am simply just trying to explain what's going on as it's not a bolster thing but rather how gear scores are calculated. To then let people make accurate guesses at fixes because if we do stuff to bolster this isn't going away and potentially might be even better if bolster was buffed because honestly bolster is really really bad right now. My only ideas to contribute are expertise - while it's not a perfect solution it would get rid of this pretty well. Then just uncapping PvP would then make zero reasons to not run the best available.