R4 Anomaly Needs a Nerf

[NicoleMay]

It should be plainly obvious that Veteran Mode, which you can enter in 330 gear maximum, should be balanced around wearing 330 gear, not 340 gear. And the top 1% of players are, you know, 1%ers. They will never stop complaining that a game is "too easy"; they, by definition, are the ones who find it the "easiest".

 

100% agree here too. The top 0.1% of ops teams are not the ones you should balance for. All content should be achievable if you know what you are doing. Every ops needs to be doable with the gear you get BEFORE GOING IN, and with the standard 2T 4D 2H of ANY spec.

 

I like being challenged. 6.0 Ancient Threat was a great example of this. Most legacy HM and NiM provide this. R4 does not.

 

I hope we never get an ops as hard as Gods and R4 again. EVER. R4 has some very fun mechanics. But it is too unforgiving for an HM, and too demanding even for a NiM imo given the 330 gear cap and current spec balancing.

[ZUHFB]

I hope we never get an ops as hard as Gods and R4 again. EVER. R4 has some very fun mechanics. But it is too unforgiving for an HM, and too demanding even for a NiM imo given the 330 gear cap and current spec balancing.

 

They won't, after gods came out they said they will never release an operation of the same difficulty. R-4 is not as hard as gods was, it's just facts. Anyway, I highly doubt 340 gear is what makes the difference if you cannot do it in 330, most groups would still die the same way. Is it too hard for a HM raid? Yes. Is SM too hard for a SM raid? Yes. But if they go the way with ToS and Rav and this stays as a hardmare they should only nerf IPCPTs health and ONLY in HM. SM can be nerfed everywhere it's story mode who cares, but a hardmare is a hardmare and that is the state the operation is currently in. Once you have the kills it's not hard to rekill, and no not because of gear diff.

Edited August 23, 2022 by ZUHFB

[SpikeSaber]

Hard mode operations are supposted to be hard. If you can't clear it, just keep trying to improve and eventually you'll get it down. There is no need to nerf it. Imho when encounter is challenging it should motivate people to improve and beat the challenge. And yes, using 6 dps is easiest way to do the boss rn.

[Deaconik]

Hard mode operations are supposted to be hard. If you can't clear it, just keep trying to improve and eventually you'll get it down. There is no need to nerf it. Imho when encounter is challenging it should motivate people to improve and beat the challenge. And yes, using 6 dps is easiest way to do the boss rn.

 

Using 0 tanks is more the way to go And that's because the boss is badly designed Ey, 0 tanks needed, because there's literally nothing to tank.

[DarthSpekulatius]

Which of the GF operations are balanced for 2/4/2? You do realize people argument by using DF which can be literally run by 8 DPS or 7 DPS and 1 heal?

 

Edit> Also I would like to point out that balancing for 2/4/2 means more damage output on bosses so a tank is truly needed -> means more healing required from people. Also requires tanks to know what to do

Because now we have less DPS players we need more DPS output from players (see above the outcry about DPS checks being too high). You can say - let's just lower the DPS check - if you lower it, people then gonna run it without tanks because if you kill the boss fast enough DPS with some defensives can tank it

 

if Healers that usually Heal Nim Raids (or even Veteran mode Healers) can keep DPS-"tanks" alive in Anomaly SM -> Nim/Vteran Groups running Anomaly SM can do it without Tanks, who gives a ****. The issue is that having Tanks increases the difficulty, in every aspect while reducing it in no aspect.

 

Bringing Tanks shouldn't require more Healing, Tanks should take so much less Damage then DPS, that the longer living Droids don't matter.

the reason why you think (you are correct in thinking that, but you shouldn't be) 2/4/2 is harder is because Tanks are too weak.

 

 

BUT: (while it wouldn't make the Fight enjoyable for me as a Tank (while its very much fun for me when playing as a Tactics Vanguard)) if Droids killed any non-Tanks but do only very little Damage to Tanks if their mechanic is played correctly, you could tune down the DPS Check and people would have to run 2/4/2 without making the OPS any harder.

 

about the requiring tanks to know what they are doing part: Someone has to know what they are doing anyway, if healing gets easier by having tanks that correctly Tankswap, that requires more skill from the Tanks, then not-correctly tank swapping would, but in compensation Healers can chill -> "don't require to know what they are doing anymore".

 

 

easy Solution to make Tanks viable again:

reduce the DPS check on the Boss.

give Tanks passive 30% AOE DR (or still more passive, if an idle Tank feels hits from AOE Damage, any other role should require getting single Target, focused, Healing without a strong defensive running!) and even more on Demand to make them much better then Taunt DPS in taking hits.

if into the Fray causes Tank VGs to Heal instead of taking Damage when hit by AOE, then Tanks will be Balanced compared to DPS! If something wants to kill a Tank that something can damned well be respectful enough to Single Target that Tank!

 

(Tank AOE DR should probably somehow scale with Tank stats to keep PVP Skank-Tanks in check but what do I know about PVP: not much.

just like Mainstat gives AP and Crit, tank stats should give <tank stat> and AOE DR)

 

To keep the Tank swap required even with Tanks having massive AOE DR, simple solution: kind of copy how Aivela & Esne work first & second stack just increases Damage Taken from that Droid, 3rd Stack sets your Tank Stats to 0 (but imo it's fine if the Tank swap isn't required in SM)

 

I don't know why Tanks can not have AOE DR, there existed Hybrid builds in the past that had it and didn't make Healer Classes obsolete, it made Tank classes without it obsolete, but if all Tanks had AOE DR everything would be perfect, I'd really like to hear the Reasoning behind that decision, and it's not just the Devs, I'd also like to know why Tanks not having AOE DR is never talked about on the Forums, am I just missing it? Have tanks stopped giving a **** and just accepted being worse at mitigating Damage then DPS are when it comes to taking AOE Damage?

[Deaconik]

if Healers that usually Heal Nim Raids (or even Veteran mode Healers) can keep DPS-"tanks" alive in Anomaly SM -> Nim/Vteran Groups running Anomaly SM can do it without Tanks, who gives a ****. The issue is that having Tanks increases the difficulty, in every aspect while reducing it in no aspect.

 

Bringing Tanks shouldn't require more Healing, Tanks should take so much less Damage then DPS, that the longer living Droids don't matter.

the reason why you think (you are correct in thinking that, but you shouldn't be) 2/4/2 is harder is because Tanks are too weak.

 

 

BUT: (while it wouldn't make the Fight enjoyable for me as a Tank (while its very much fun for me when playing as a Tactics Vanguard)) if Droids killed any non-Tanks but do only very little Damage to Tanks if their mechanic is played correctly, you could tune down the DPS Check and people would have to run 2/4/2 without making the OPS any harder.

 

about the requiring tanks to know what they are doing part: Someone has to know what they are doing anyway, if healing gets easier by having tanks that correctly Tankswap, that requires more skill from the Tanks, then not-correctly tank swapping would, but in compensation Healers can chill -> "don't require to know what they are doing anymore".

 

 

easy Solution to make Tanks viable again:

reduce the DPS check on the Boss.

give Tanks passive 30% AOE DR (or still more passive, if an idle Tank feels hits from AOE Damage, any other role should require getting single Target, focused, Healing without a strong defensive running!) and even more on Demand to make them much better then Taunt DPS in taking hits.

if into the Fray causes Tank VGs to Heal instead of taking Damage when hit by AOE, then Tanks will be Balanced compared to DPS! If something wants to kill a Tank that something can damned well be respectful enough to Single Target that Tank!

 

(Tank AOE DR should probably somehow scale with Tank stats to keep PVP Skank-Tanks in check but what do I know about PVP: not much.

just like Mainstat gives AP and Crit, tank stats should give <tank stat> and AOE DR)

 

To keep the Tank swap required even with Tanks having massive AOE DR, simple solution: kind of copy how Aivela & Esne work first & second stack just increases Damage Taken from that Droid, 3rd Stack sets your Tank Stats to 0 (but imo it's fine if the Tank swap isn't required in SM)

 

I don't know why Tanks can not have AOE DR, there existed Hybrid builds in the past that had it and didn't make Healer Classes obsolete, it made Tank classes without it obsolete, but if all Tanks had AOE DR everything would be perfect, I'd really like to hear the Reasoning behind that decision, and it's not just the Devs, I'd also like to know why Tanks not having AOE DR is never talked about on the Forums, am I just missing it? Have tanks stopped giving a **** and just accepted being worse at mitigating Damage then DPS are when it comes to taking AOE Damage?

 

Well, first off, the post is about GF balancing and not the IP CPT balancing, so your analysis is as off as it can be

 

So now to the points of how is this boss badly designed and why tanks are useless there:

Bringing tanks means MORE healing in this case because the most damage droids do are from an AOE which tnaks have 0 mitigation while DWTs have 60 % mitigation. Also the most damage comes from the Internal Elemental type of damage which bypass both armor and shield. So tank literally takes the same amount of damage.

 

Now you can say we can change it to the F/T Energy/Kinetic damage, well, bad news. PTs have big armors, have their power yield and have their damage reductions. So while tanks would take less damage, we talking about two 30 seconds moments in a 6-minute boss fight, basically the tanks would be usefull for a minute-ish from those 6 minutes.

 

Now to your solution and why is it bad. Giving tanks the AoE reduction means you have to rebalance all the other fights, because passive AoE mitigation is huge for tanks.

 

So now, why don't tanks have any AoE damage reduction - because they don't one. Tanks mitigate most of the AoE reduction with their armour, shield and passive mitigation. They do not need one.

 

Again, the reason why 0 tanks are needed for IP CPT is because the boss has a bad design

 

It's not just the droids, it's the fact that having tanks during the boss being down while hazards are active is useless, having tanks during bombs defusal is useless and even with your change having tanks down during the droids is useless as they would take more damage simply because this is how damage mitigation works.

 

You want to fix this fight and balance it for a tank usage? Well then MAKE THE TANKS USEFULL. Change the droid damage type, change the behaviour of the boss - e.g. when a tank is present and holding the aggro half of the purple beams is hitting the tank - thus less DTPS on others. Big bad circles of doom are hitting the highest threats - in 2/4/2 case tanks, which means DPS can safely damage. But guess what - this means this boss changes from a nightmare to walk in a park, because the biggest issue is not taking them stacks while taking away big bad circles of doom while doing enough dps. Now that both tanks can just taunt on CD and stand in the corner you just lowered the bar towards DF SM

 

And I cannot stress it enough, the post you quote was about the general GF rebalance of storymodes

[DarthSpekulatius]

Well, first off, the post is about GF balancing and not the IP CPT balancing, so your analysis is as off as it can be

bringing 2 Tanks has not reduced the Difficulty of doing GF content for ages, so I think I'm spot on with saying 2/4/2 is harder then 6/2 because the Tank role is way underpowered under certain circumstances. IP CPT pushes it to the front because Tanks don't even manage Aggro to turn the AOE away from the group like they would on Red, Trashers, Trandoshans, Huntsman, Apex,... AND the longer living Droids mean Healing Tanks is far harder then Healing DPS, but many, many bosses have no place for a 2nd Tank either.

 

So now to the points of how is this boss badly designed and why tanks are useless there:

Bringing tanks means MORE healing in this case because the most damage droids do are from an AOE which tnaks have 0 mitigation while DWTs have 60 % mitigation.

-> easy fix like I said, if Tanks had AOE DR they would be better at mitigating (unavoidable) Damage then DPS are in all circumstances with sufficient AOE DR they would require less Healing even if the Droids lived permanently compared to DPS Bursting them down.

 

as for having to rebalance all other content because of giving Tanks AOE DR. all these cases, where Tanks suddenly become Immortal due to that change are fundamentally flawed in the first place. The fix to that Immortality, having certain enemy attacks do Single Target Damage to the main Target and AOE to all others has existed forever, not healing Tanks in Phases where the Healers have to Burn is as ancient as Titan 6 last Phase, it wouldn't be hard to Balance DPS and Tank Survivability once it's assured that Tanks live against AOE and die to Single Target or Failing Mechanics

 

You want to fix this fight and balance it for a tank usage? Well then MAKE THE TANKS USEFULL. Change the droid damage type, change the behaviour of the boss - e.g. when a tank is present and holding the aggro half of the purple beams is hitting the tank - thus less DTPS on others. Big bad circles of doom are hitting the highest threats - in 2/4/2 case tanks, which means DPS can safely damage. But guess what - this means this boss changes from a nightmare to walk in a park, because the biggest issue is not taking them stacks while taking away big bad circles of doom while doing enough dps. Now that both tanks can just taunt on CD and stand in the corner you just lowered the bar towards DF SM

 

you don't have to touch the Big, bad circles to make Tanks useful, the Hazzard Phase stops mattering once you've learned it then only the Droid Phase and the Burn at the end matter, so if Tanks only matter in the Phases that matter what's the issue?

(I do think the Circles should not be allowed to target the same player 5 times in a row (that easily happens with them being pure rng) but that's not a Tank issue.)

 

as for fearing those phases become trivial if Tanks had AOE DR, they could just crank Droid DPS back up until The Heal check is back but DwTs die while Tanks Live, I repeat it wouldn't be hard at all to Balance once it's assured that Tanks live against AOE and die to Single Target or Failing Mechanics.

 

it's not like Vanguards take a ton of skill to live against the Droids either, I'm not good as DPS, under stress I can do Damage and one extra thing on an easy spec like Tactics if I had to look at the Debuff to decide when to Tankswap or position the Droid I'd fail it, but I can mindlessly tunnel my Hotbar & Energy while hitting shield first and later AOE Taunt to live the 3rd Stack when the droid dies and I Hydro to the Console another PT took care of who now replaces the 2nd DPS who took the Debuffs of the other Droid, yes if the Game was Balanced for 4 DPS I could go back to what I'm good at -> the fight would become easier for me, but it's not in any way shape or form going to drop to be a SM level fight, you are delusional.

 

 

And I cannot stress it enough, the post you quote was about the general GF rebalance of storymodes

I can't stress enough that replacing the 2nd Tank has, for years and years, made many fight easier instead of harder.

sure Nim Groups will trash SM OPS no matter what, one good Healer solohealing SM OPS with 7 DPS is regrettable, but not the Issue, the Issue is that a Bunch of fights are Balanced for having extra DPS because those DPS can match a Tank in Living, if they play sufficiently well, no Tank can ever match even a mediocre DPS in doing Single Target Damage (now that Shadow uncapped Reflect is gone)

 

IP CPT is in such a bad state (design wise) that doesn't have to be fun to tank anymore it has to be necessary to field tanks!

If it's not then Tanks that can't or don't want to respecc/relogg to DPS are forced to be Benched or the fight has to be easier then it should be. both are bad solutions to an Issue that has been in the Game for ages.

[Boss_Golem]

All content should be achievable if you know what you are doing. Every ops needs to be doable with the gear you get BEFORE GOING IN, and with the standard 2T 4D 2H of ANY spec.

 

I do agree on the part that every ops should be doable with the standart composition. And it should be pretty easy to achieve if you tune down all the health but increase dmg dealt by droids and turrets.

 

However this ops is doable with the gear you get before going aswell as all fights being clearable if you know what you are doing. If you have trouble regarding healing, dps or mechanics that means youre not knowing what youre doing yet.

[eabevella]

Had my second shot at SM R4, this time as a dps instead of heal. Still stuck at Lady D burn phase.

 

Our lead/tank has cleared HM as dps or heal. I guess he just wanted to try pug group?

At least one other dps has cleared HM as well, so it's not a all-newbie group.

Lead was doing great job explaining and calling out. His tanking was solid too.

He and the other HM guy actually told a dps who's being a dick when people couldn't follow the Lady D mechanic perfectly in our first pull to **** (the guy left and we got a replacement). Great respect to them for sticking with casuals who were willing to learn. Even though we couldn't finish the fight due to time issue, I still felt like I got some experience.

 

The biggest issue we have in Lady D fight is the ping-pong circles. And the burn phase.

 

For SM the circles could be reduced from 4 to 3. The group still have to follow the mechanic, but it will be easier to do it correctly while still serves the tutorial/training purpose of SM.

 

The speed and number of the adds that spawn in SM could use some reduction as well so that the burn phase is not that dire for SM.

 

I think tuning those two phases down will make SM R4 accessible for most fleet pug groups that actually want to do something interesting, which should be what a SM operation is for.

[NicoleMay]

The people commenting "it's doable with the gear you get" are part of those elitists we were mentioning.

 

Yes. It's doable...for the top 1% of teams. NiM should be accessible to way more than 1% of teams. And I think the big post I last quoted/replied to is a good target for that group of people. This needs to be accessible to way more of the playerbase.

 

It doesn't need to be a pushover, I don't want it to be for HM. But I want the difficulty to match. Even if HM is really hardmare for R4, it's still overtuned. People are looking for Kanoth and Watchdog lockouts (myself included), because they are fair fights for your current gear. IP and Lady Dom are not. They need nerfs. And I'd argue the other 2 bosses could use a bit of tweaking too, just to a far less extent. If it was just Lady Dom who required higher gear to get to this point, then yeah, probably fair. But the first boss? Really? I get it, you don't want us farming a single boss for easy gear, but that's exactly what we are doing. And again, it isn't easy. Kanoth isn't a pushover. Don't make a new NiM Nefra that's really a training dummy. But IP could've been a challenging but fair fight. It isn't. Not with 330 gear. Not with more than 1% of top raiders.

 

The top 1% of players should not be the only people completing this. And again, every single ops, every single boss, on EVERY SINGLE DIFFICULTY should be completable with 2T 4D 2H. Running 1T 5D or 1T 6D or 6D 2H or whatever else should be something you CAN do, not something you HAVE TO do.

[Deaconik]

bringing 2 Tanks has not reduced the Difficulty of doing GF content for ages, so I think I'm spot on with saying 2/4/2 is harder then 6/2 because the Tank role is way underpowered under certain circumstances. IP CPT pushes it to the front because Tanks don't even manage Aggro to turn the AOE away from the group like they would on Red, Trashers, Trandoshans, Huntsman, Apex,... AND the longer living Droids mean Healing Tanks is far harder then Healing DPS, but many, many bosses have no place for a 2nd Tank either.

 

-> easy fix like I said, if Tanks had AOE DR they would be better at mitigating (unavoidable) Damage then DPS are in all circumstances with sufficient AOE DR they would require less Healing even if the Droids lived permanently compared to DPS Bursting them down.

 

as for having to rebalance all other content because of giving Tanks AOE DR. all these cases, where Tanks suddenly become Immortal due to that change are fundamentally flawed in the first place. The fix to that Immortality, having certain enemy attacks do Single Target Damage to the main Target and AOE to all others has existed forever, not healing Tanks in Phases where the Healers have to Burn is as ancient as Titan 6 last Phase, it wouldn't be hard to Balance DPS and Tank Survivability once it's assured that Tanks live against AOE and die to Single Target or Failing Mechanics

 

 

 

you don't have to touch the Big, bad circles to make Tanks useful, the Hazzard Phase stops mattering once you've learned it then only the Droid Phase and the Burn at the end matter, so if Tanks only matter in the Phases that matter what's the issue?

(I do think the Circles should not be allowed to target the same player 5 times in a row (that easily happens with them being pure rng) but that's not a Tank issue.)

 

as for fearing those phases become trivial if Tanks had AOE DR, they could just crank Droid DPS back up until The Heal check is back but DwTs die while Tanks Live, I repeat it wouldn't be hard at all to Balance once it's assured that Tanks live against AOE and die to Single Target or Failing Mechanics.

 

it's not like Vanguards take a ton of skill to live against the Droids either, I'm not good as DPS, under stress I can do Damage and one extra thing on an easy spec like Tactics if I had to look at the Debuff to decide when to Tankswap or position the Droid I'd fail it, but I can mindlessly tunnel my Hotbar & Energy while hitting shield first and later AOE Taunt to live the 3rd Stack when the droid dies and I Hydro to the Console another PT took care of who now replaces the 2nd DPS who took the Debuffs of the other Droid, yes if the Game was Balanced for 4 DPS I could go back to what I'm good at -> the fight would become easier for me, but it's not in any way shape or form going to drop to be a SM level fight, you are delusional.

 

 

 

I can't stress enough that replacing the 2nd Tank has, for years and years, made many fight easier instead of harder.

sure Nim Groups will trash SM OPS no matter what, one good Healer solohealing SM OPS with 7 DPS is regrettable, but not the Issue, the Issue is that a Bunch of fights are Balanced for having extra DPS because those DPS can match a Tank in Living, if they play sufficiently well, no Tank can ever match even a mediocre DPS in doing Single Target Damage (now that Shadow uncapped Reflect is gone)

 

IP CPT is in such a bad state (design wise) that doesn't have to be fun to tank anymore it has to be necessary to field tanks!

If it's not then Tanks that can't or don't want to respecc/relogg to DPS are forced to be Benched or the fight has to be easier then it should be. both are bad solutions to an Issue that has been in the Game for ages.

 

REBALANCE is the keyword. REBALANCE. Meaning to make the GF content REQUIRE 2 tanks, not bring there 2 tanks. Re-read it again.

__________________________________________________

And again, nobody will take to the IP-CPT tanks to be used for a minute of a 6-minute fight which can be done by DWT. You need to make the tanks be worthy longer than that. And giving tanks flat AoE DR is bad for the rest of the operations. That's why I say the tanks need to be useful for more than the droids.

 

Edit> Do you know how damage reduction in this game works? Internal Elemental damage avoids both armour and shield which means tanks take the same damage as dwt. That. Is. The. Issue. Not that the damage is AOE. C'mon Read what I write, I/E is the issue, not AoE.

If you do not know - the droids AoE is doing I/E damage, gives you I/E dot and the damage increased stack. Which means that if you don't mitigate the damage in any way a tank will take the same damage as a DWT. But DWT does more damage And if you change the damage type DWT can tank it for a while as well, because they have defensives. That's why I say you need to make tanks useful for more than droids, because droids die quickly (and no, you cannot increase their HP as that would make the boss harder with them tanks )

 

Edit2> operations which would become much more easier with a flat AOE DR on tanks:

DF Nim, DP Nim, TFB Nim, EC Nim, SNV Nim, Dxun Nim, maybe Gods Nim, never been there (obviously HMs as well), Ravagers HM and TOS HM.

And R-4 HM

 

The final edit>

TL, DR>

In other words flat AOE DR on tanks is a very bad solution causing more issues and isn't solving this issue. The issue is you do not need tanks for the IP CPT boss even if they take 0 damage from them droids. They're not useful. (for this boss)

Edited August 24, 2022 by Deaconik

[DarthSpekulatius]

REBALANCE is the keyword. REBALANCE. Meaning to make the GF content REQUIRE 2 tanks, not bring there 2 tanks. Re-read it again.

__________________________________________________

And again, nobody will take to the IP-CPT tanks to be used for a minute of a 6-minute fight which can be done by DWT. You need to make the tanks be worthy longer than that. And giving tanks flat AoE DR is bad for the rest of the operations. That's why I say the tanks need to be useful for more than the droids.

I repeat:

...if Tanks only matter in the Phases that matter what's the issue?...

if Rampaging Droids kill more DPS Players then you have combat Rezzes.

Tanks must be used -> the DPS Check can be lowered to be appropriate for 4 DPS.

Tanks don't need to be challenged for the entire fight.

just like DPS aren't challenged for the entire fight it's 1:1 the Same.

 

Edit> Do you know how damage reduction in this game works? Internal Elemental damage avoids both armour and shield which means tanks take the same damage as dwt. That. Is. The. Issue. Not that the damage is AOE. C'mon Read what I write, I/E is the issue, not AoE.

then why is Red easier with 1/5/2?

why are walkers easier with 1/4/3?

why is Gate commander Draxus easier with 1/5/2?

why weren't Tanks Immortal when they did have AOE DR in the Past?

it's only very slightly because of it being Internal Damage. DWTs having 60% AOE DR on their Mass Taunt is just fundamentally Broken when Tanks don't have it.

Two Options: 1. remove any and all AOE DR

2. give Tanks AOE DR

 

there's no 3rd Option. Tanks must be the supreme rulers of all types of Damage Mitigation else instances like this one, where a DWT outclasses them in their Job are Guaranteed to happen.

 

alternatively give Tanks and Healers a massive boost to DPS so that replacing one of them with a DPS doesn't trivialize the Fight, but that will cause so many more issues then giving Tanks AOE DR and increasing all ST Damage and all Frontals that shouldn't hit melees in the first place.

Tank DTPS will stay the same while it removes DWTs from being Viable Tanks.

The massive Powergain Tanks would get from AOE DR makes it strictly necessary for the AOE DR to be 100% identical for all Tank Classes any differences would break that Balance, but it wouldn't change the difficulty of Balancing how much DTPS Tanks have in any way as Single Target Damage wouldn't be touched by it.

 

If you do not know - the droids AoE is doing I/E damage, gives you I/E dot and the damage increased stack. Which means that if you don't mitigate the damage in any way a tank will take the same damage as a DWT. But DWT does more damage And if you change the damage type DWT can tank it for a while as well, because they have defensives. That's why I say you need to make tanks useful for more than droids, because droids die quickly (and no, you cannot increase their HP as that would make the boss harder with them tanks )

 

Simple way of making the higher DPS that a DPS does that will never be reachable for a Tank not matter in the slightest: make Droids Kill DPS and not kill Tanks

a living DPS will do more Damage then a Dead DPS as long as DPS trying to Tank die how much more DPS they do while alive doesn't matter.

easiest solution to fix this exact Issue in the entire game, would be giving Tanks flat AOE DR.

But programming a Role check like what was done with Stims in Duxun is fine too I don't care but something NEEDS to happen. Like you said changing it to not be Internal anymore will not be sufficient to guarantee DWTs die.

 

once Tanks only die with more then 2 stacks + but DPS die at the 2nd Stack or sooner, how long the Droids live kind of stops mattering for Tank vs DWT Balance.

at that point it falls on the Healers to keep the Tanks alive while they play the age old Tauntswap Game.

 

Edit2> operations which would become much more easier with a flat AOE DR on tanks:

DF Nim, DP Nim, TFB Nim, EC Nim, SNV Nim, Dxun Nim, maybe Gods Nim, never been there (obviously HMs as well), Ravagers HM and TOS HM.

And R-4 HM

the number of fights in old OPS where AOE DR on select Classes has any justification for existing in the first place is 1 or maybe 2, it doesn't matter if giving Tanks AOE DR is broken because the fact that AOE DR works in those fights is the Issue not if Tanks have AOE DR.

making AOE DR not work in those OPS for anyone would easily solve both Issues the existing one and the newly created one.

 

The final edit>

TL, DR>

In other words flat AOE DR on tanks is a very bad solution causing more issues and isn't solving this issue. The issue is you do not need tanks for the IP CPT boss even if they take 0 damage from them droids. They're not useful. (for this boss)

 

Simple make Droids Kill DPS and not kill Tanks

once that is true Tanks will be useful for the fight

 

I repeat for the 100th time: Tanking that boss doesn't need to be fun it needs to be required so the boss can be balanced for 2/4/2.

 

it doesn't need to be a good solution, it needs to be fixed this *********** Week!

I'll happily play DPS on that boss, the only reason I'm a Tank is that there's no other Idiot to fill my spot.

I like the fight 100% the way it is, if I close my eyes and ignore what it will do to the future of Raiding in this Game.

 

But Any Tank who doesn't want to be DPS quitting over this *********** boss, because they can look forward to being benched for multiple Months, is a Tragic loss for the game.

IP CPT isn't master Blaster that is hard and will require months of wiping until every single Player stops making mistakes, that fight doesn't force you to bench even one Tank.

IP isn't Revan, Draxus, Walkers, Lurker, Red, ... that force ONE of your Tanks to be DPS.

IP forces BOTH Tanks to be DPS.

 

 

let's assume not breaking old Raids was more Important then unbreaking Anomaly:

they can easily repeat the **** they did in Duxun: create a role checking item that has the check "is Tank => give 80% AOE DR".

Combine it with something like what Goldy or Aivela & Esne do where mistakes (any Stacks from Lazers/Fire/other Peoples Bombs/not Tank swapping appropriately) take away that Buff

and then increase Droid Cleave Damage by 10 times will "fix" that fight.

 

it won't fix the rest of the game, giving Tanks AOE DR would make the rest of the game easy to fix, but 1/5/2 fights have existed for long enough obviously no-one cares.

 

your claim that the entire fight needs to be reworked to make 2/4/2 superior to 0/6/2 is untrue.

unlike DPS where doing more Damage can change everything, Tanks&Healers are a binary check either everyone lives or someone doesn't.

[ZUHFB]

it won't fix the rest of the game, giving Tanks AOE DR would make the rest of the game easy to fix, but 1/5/2 fights have existed for long enough obviously no-one cares.

 

If you give them more DR then why would you need MORE tanks? Makes no sense.

Edited August 24, 2022 by ZUHFB

[DarthSpekulatius]

If you give them more DR then why would you need MORE tanks? Makes no sense.

 

right now, thanks to having AOE DR, certain DPS can live long enough for Tanks to Drop Debuffs meant to enforce Tank swaps, once Tanks outclass all other Roles in survivability that can be made impossible.

[ZUHFB]

right now, thanks to having AOE DR, certain DPS can live long enough for Tanks to Drop Debuffs meant to enforce Tank swaps, once Tanks outclass all other Roles in survivability that can be made impossible.

 

it would still be possible. You don't play a tank because you have to have 6 DPS, you play it so you can have an easier time with the droids in which case damage always wins, besides what would be stoppong tanks from full skanking.

 

Your solution is flawed and not an answer

[DarthSpekulatius]

it would still be possible. You don't play a tank because you have to have 6 DPS, you play it so you can have an easier time with the droids in which case damage always wins, besides what would be stoppong tanks from full skanking.

 

Your solution is flawed and not an answer

 

like I wrote earlier: make Tank AOE DR work like Crit on Mainstat except put it on Shield, Absorb and defense, maybe even on High endurance Armorings and color Crystals (in proportion). it would be a secondary gain from using Tank stats.

[Chryptyk]

2nd Week in a row my team got someone their Lady D cheevo and they were so excited it seemed like they'd just done a timer and gotten a title. A SM shouldn't give you that feeling....

[Deaconik]

like I wrote earlier: make Tank AOE DR work like Crit on Mainstat except put it on Shield, Absorb and defense, maybe even on High endurance Armorings and color Crystals (in proportion). it would be a secondary gain from using Tank stats.

 

Useless change, aoe is already being reduced by shield and absorb if the damage type is correct. Again, we return to the issue that the fight is almost 7 minutes long and of those you would need the tank for 2 spawns of 2 droids which is a minute for all 4 droids. Which is inefficient. And doesn't change the fact that for the 30 seconds a DWT can tank it(ok, maybe not assassins)

 

E> you simply don't understand how the damage type and damage reduction works and why having tanks with an aoe reduction is simply wrong no matter how you do it.

 

e2> to the red example - you do realize that in the case of Red you TANK the boss? In here you can NOT tank the boss which is the IP CPT I really don't know how to explain it any better, 6/7 minutes you do NOT need a tank no matter how strong their tanking of droids is.

 

e3: also I cannot believe you're willing to flush down the toilet the PvP balance and all PvE balance outside of the droids just for THESE 4 DROIDS.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Deaconik

[DarthSpekulatius]

Useless change, aoe is already being reduced by shield and absorb if the damage type is correct.

that just makes Tanks and DPS with AOE DR equals. DPS do soo much more Damage compared to Tanks Tanks need to be much more survivable then DPS.

 

Again, we return to the issue that the fight is almost 7 minutes long and of those you would need the tank for 2 spawns of 2 droids which is a minute for all 4 droids. Which is inefficient. And doesn't change the fact that for the 30 seconds a DWT can tank it(ok, maybe not assassins)

I thought size 5 was stupid but apperantly size 7 is needed, size 7 is really stupidly clipping on my end, oh well:

make Droids Kill DPS and not kill Tanks

 

E> you simply don't understand how the damage type and damage reduction works and why having tanks with an aoe reduction is simply wrong no matter how you do it.

I don't know why Tanks can not have AOE DR, there existed Hybrid builds in the past

it worked just fine, nothing wrong about it, it's extremely obvious to give Tanks AOE DR too:

DPS shouldn't stand in fire -> they shouldn't have AOE DR

Tanks by their very Job definition turn the Fire away from the rest of the group -> they should have AOE DR

 

instead of saying "is simply wrong" proof why it's wrong, until you do, you are wrong.

 

 

e2> to the red example - you do realize that in the case of Red you TANK the boss? In here you can NOT tank the boss which is the IP CPT I really don't know how to explain it any better, 6/7 minutes you do NOT need a tank no matter how strong their tanking of droids is.

you solo tank the Boss, a DPS takes the trasher.

I did write no-one gives a **** that DPS did the Job of the offtank for Years.

 

e3: also I cannot believe you're willing to flush down the toilet the PvP balance and all PvE balance outside of the droids just for THESE 4 DROIDS.

explain where Tanks !that are NOT Skank Tanks! dominate PVP

even if they did, just kill them with Single Target Damage.

 

the remaining PVE Balance wouldn't be thrown out either, just DPS filling the Tank or offtank role would be thrown out,

but since that's the goal in the first Place I don't get why you complain.

[Deaconik]

Dude, I am a tank main. I tell you there's nothing for the tanks to do except the droids and you still repeat about droids. Droids live for 30 seconds. That's a minute together. 30 seconds can survive any DWT, maybe even sins. Forcing tanks there for a minute of tanking and 6 minutes of uselessness is punishing tanks.

 

The rest is just your blindness. The whole operations design relies on AoE mechanics so giving AoE reduction to tanks makes the operations even more laughable.

[ZUHFB]

Dude, I am a tank main. I tell you there's nothing for the tanks to do except the droids and you still repeat about droids. Droids live for 30 seconds. That's a minute together. 30 seconds can survive any DWT, maybe even sins. Forcing tanks there for a minute of tanking and 6 minutes of uselessness is punishing tanks.

 

The rest is just your blindness. The whole operations design relies on AoE mechanics so giving AoE reduction to tanks makes the operations even more laughable.

 

Yep, as a tank on IPCPT not only are you cosplaying a buyer you are also doing less damage and you take more than a DPS.

[Deaconik]

Yep, as a tank on IPCPT not only are you cosplaying a buyer you are also doing less damage and you take more than a DPS.

 

But even if you take less damage, outside of droids there's 0 tank mechanics, being there JUST FOR THE DROIDS is a tank punishment as you're literally useless. Click on consoles can be done by anybody, boss cannot be tanked and your DPS is pathetic and as such your contribution to the bomb killing is pathetic and same applies to the burn of the boss. You're useless there and needed for few moments in the whole fight. Glorious.

 

Edit> also removing AOE DR from DPS means that almost every boss hits harder. Sure, with 340 it doesn't matter much, but I was under the impression that 340 is hardly obtainable I love how disconnected with the operations and their damagsome people are DPS shouldn't stand in fire - yea, but they are getting grenades, rockets and other fancy source of AoEs in almost every operation if not in every. But hey, I have 340, so why should I Care

Edited September 2, 2022 by Deaconik

[DarthSpekulatius]

Dude, I am a tank main. I tell you there's nothing for the tanks to do except the droids and you still repeat about droids. Droids live for 30 seconds. That's a minute together. 30 seconds can survive any DWT, maybe even sins. Forcing tanks there for a minute of tanking and 6 minutes of uselessness is punishing tanks.

 

I wrote in the PTS thread that Tanks need a console that turns them into skank tanks for that fight exactly because it's a ****** experience, we didn't get that, instead the Burn phase at the end, that was already to short for an HC fight, was made even shorter.

 

at this point Fun doesn't matter anymore the fight is tuned for 0/6/2 and it's fun as 0/6/2, but the benched Tanks are certainly having even less fun then they usually have on Bosses that are purely Healer & DPS checks where Tanks have nothing to contribute.

 

I'm 90% certain the fight will just be nerfed into the ground some months from now, and nothing will be done to straighten out the survivability Balance between DPS and Tanks.

at that time maybe groups with good DPS will bring them in to press the Buttons and save some time by not having to switch players between Boss 1 & 2, yay fun.

being useful for 30-60 seconds of the fight instead of being useful for 0 seconds of the fight is better, not good, but better.

 

I'd prefer to see the root of the problem fixed and the time taken to rebalance the Game around a now fixed Survivability balance between DPS and Tanks appropriate to the difference between the Damage dealt between Tanks and DPS.

 

Edit> also removing AOE DR from DPS means that almost every boss hits harder. Sure, with 340 it doesn't matter much, but I was under the impression that 340 is hardly obtainable I love how disconnected with the operations and their damagsome people are DPS shouldn't stand in fire - yea, but they are getting grenades, rockets and other fancy source of AoEs in almost every operation if not in every. But hey, I have 340, so why should I Care

 

you do realize several of the DPS don't have AOE DR?

you do realize Healers don't have AOE DR?

Grenades: don't focus on Melee they also hit Ranged, they hit Healers and they hit Tanks just like they hit melee. except non melee DPS are close to death after the hit and Melee with AOE DR up will not drop below 90% life even if the DOT isn't dispelled.

Rockets: don't focus on Melee they also hit Ranged, they hit Healers and they hit Tanks.

other fancy source of AoEs: don't focus on Melee they also hit Ranged, they hit Healers and they hit Tanks.

 

I mean: that dot being reduced by AOE DR lends more strength to the Argument that Tanks with AOE DR would be OP, it has no reason whatsoever to be categorized as AOE Damage yet it is. But how can you argue that the Problem is Tanks having AOE DR instead of the argument being that that DOT should just be ST damage?

[Setokai]

The only tweak i saw i think might need to be made at least for the first boss, is the size of the flames which take up most of the squares leaving very little room to maneuver or not allow them to spawn by the panels

[Deaconik]

I wrote in the PTS thread that Tanks need a console that turns them into skank tanks for that fight exactly because it's a ****** experience, we didn't get that, instead the Burn phase at the end, that was already to short for an HC fight, was made even shorter.

 

at this point Fun doesn't matter anymore the fight is tuned for 0/6/2 and it's fun as 0/6/2, but the benched Tanks are certainly having even less fun then they usually have on Bosses that are purely Healer & DPS checks where Tanks have nothing to contribute.

 

I'm 90% certain the fight will just be nerfed into the ground some months from now, and nothing will be done to straighten out the survivability Balance between DPS and Tanks.

at that time maybe groups with good DPS will bring them in to press the Buttons and save some time by not having to switch players between Boss 1 & 2, yay fun.

being useful for 30-60 seconds of the fight instead of being useful for 0 seconds of the fight is better, not good, but better.

 

I'd prefer to see the root of the problem fixed and the time taken to rebalance the Game around a now fixed Survivability balance between DPS and Tanks appropriate to the difference between the Damage dealt between Tanks and DPS.

 

 

 

you do realize several of the DPS don't have AOE DR?

you do realize Healers don't have AOE DR?

Grenades: don't focus on Melee they also hit Ranged, they hit Healers and they hit Tanks just like they hit melee. except non melee DPS are close to death after the hit and Melee with AOE DR up will not drop below 90% life even if the DOT isn't dispelled.

Rockets: don't focus on Melee they also hit Ranged, they hit Healers and they hit Tanks.

other fancy source of AoEs: don't focus on Melee they also hit Ranged, they hit Healers and they hit Tanks.

 

I mean: that dot being reduced by AOE DR lends more strength to the Argument that Tanks with AOE DR would be OP, it has no reason whatsoever to be categorized as AOE Damage yet it is. But how can you argue that the Problem is Tanks having AOE DR instead of the argument being that that DOT should just be ST damage?

Oh trust me, I do realize that, for example some DPS can be one-shotted by the operations chief grenade which is AoE hitting them for over 380k damage. You - on the other hand - don't know that, do you?

 

Edit> You keep misinterpreting my words constantly, please re-read what i wrote

I have two arguments:

1) There's nothing for the tanks to do, thus buffing tanks is pointless. Give tanks more to do than just tank the droid

2) AoE reduction on tanks breaks all the operations which were balanced around tanks eating the AoE or having to move out of it.

 

You keep ignoring my number 1 point for some reason. I am a tank and I dislike being needed for 30-60 seconds as that's just me being useless for majority of the fight the same way as it is now. You know why? Cause tanks are better at keeping aggro and as such better at not losing the aggro. As such the group is much safer and the healing is easier. The IP CPT HM can be run 1/5/2 but it isn't because many tanks dislike the fact that even with their tanking the're mostly useless. There's NOTHIGN to tank ON THE BOSS. Fix that, nerf HP, voila tanks are useful, you don't need to buff the tanks.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Deaconik