R4 Anomaly Needs a Nerf

[LanceDefender]

I love how I with my 9k DPS is used as argument for something xD

 

However, I have no idea what I'm doing wrong that I do such low dmg. High tier geae, know how to play my class, doing everything as fast as possible and still I'm doing such low dmg.

[ZUHFB]

I love how I with my 9k DPS is used as argument for something xD

 

However, I have no idea what I'm doing wrong that I do such low dmg. High tier geae, know how to play my class, doing everything as fast as possible and still I'm doing such low dmg.

 

I didn't mean you, it was an example number. Could've said anything under 15k argument is the same.

[Galbsadi]

R4 Anomaly is fun. Lots of fun. I really enjoy the mechanics.

 

However, as OP noted, at least on SM, it's really not properly tuned. Does it make sense for it to be harder than prior SM ops? Sure. I especially don't want to sleep through the op like KP, EV, DF, or DP SM.

 

As noted earlier, the DPS checks are a bit too high. For example, to get through IP-CPT (granted, this is with some players newer to ops) we had to go 1T, 2H, 5D, and then have the tank basically skank tank in DPS gear+shield. (Could probalby get the same result with a DwT with a shield to hold the droids until they're destroyed.) With all that, it's still extremely close. Best answer is probably to add another 5-10s to the enrage cast. Nothing too forgiving, just something that makes it workable for PUGs, etc.

 

For those saying "it's the current tier, it should be harder"...I'm presuming you're thinking like other games, such as WoW or FFXIV. In WoW, it's correct: the current tier IS harder than the previous tier. It also drops better gear without needing to jump into HM. As is, the R4 SM drops the same (or worse) gear as easier content, so the challenge should be the same (or easier). Note that I'm not talking about R4 HM. It's perfectly fine for that to be harder content: it truly is the current tier, drops the best gear in the game, and has every right to be a challenge. (It may potentially also be overtuned, I couldn't say, but I'm not saying that difficulty is. I'm saying SM is.) A better comparison for SM, based on the fact that it IS thrown in group finder, is that it should be more like normal raids in XIV or LFR in WoW. XIV has pretty easy normal raids, and puts the challenge in their Savage raids (the equivalent of HM or NiM, depending). WoW gives LFR players a stacking buff (5% bonus damage, healing, and HP every wipe) that eventually makes it so even the most casual of casuals can clear the content.

 

I think the mechanics on the add phase for IP-CPT are a bit too unforgiving, but not severely so. I'd recommend slightly adjusting spawn times (have the droids in the 2nd add phase spawn after the first set of bombs, like they do in the first add phase, or maybe one droid each set if they want to preserve the urgency of killing faster).

 

That said, overall, as I noted at the beginning: the new Op is fun. Just a bit overtuned is all.

[CaptainZiv]

hey guys we just cleared R-4 Anomaly on SM and it was hard, I had to switch roles just so we can do it because some players left, I mean we got Lady Dominique twice to 1% and 0% health and then Lady Dominique killed us, the secret is to gather a group of experienced players who at least got to the last boss, (we were fleet pugs) still it shouldn't be like this we are not supposed to do an SM progression for SM operations, now before you call us complete pugs understand that we all have done it before, and that's why it should be nerfed immediately I don't want to form another progression team just for an SM operation lol. Edited August 13, 2022 by CaptainZiv

[orig_mrrabbit]

I'm going to give my honest assessment of R-4 SM.

 

My group was a PUG, with 1 Tank, 5 DPS and 2 Sorc Healers.

 

Only ONE of use had done ALL 4 bosses.

 

The rest of us were there for the very first time.

 

First Boss

 

We steam rolled it - didn't blink an eye - with all DPS doing 19k to 34k. Heals was so rediculously easy we were DPSsing as well. No one died.

 

NO NERF IS NEEDED

 

 

Second Boss

 

We steam rolled it - didnt blink an eye - with all DPS again doing 19k to 34k. Heals had to stick more with heals and sometimes work the panels. ONE person died - me - a healer.

 

NO NERF IS NEEDED

 

 

Third Boss

 

Required 2 shots. First shot, we came super close - but that wipe told us ALL THAT WE NEEDED TO KNOW.

 

Second shot was an absolute faceroll - myself on heals spamming the floor tile cleanse using either ability as needed.

 

Again...our DPS rocked.

 

NO NERF IS NEEDED

 

...then it was time for the last boss.

 

 

Fourth Boss

 

This boss doesn't need a nerf - but it does need either of the following:

 

1. A strategy change for the group - such as repositioning boss OR dropping circles on edge of upper platform to reduce DPS downtime.

 

2. Reduction in size of the orange and yellow circles so that they take up only a third of their current space so that they can be dropped on the edge of the upper platform without being ANYWHERE close to someone quickly scooting by - so as to again to reduce DPS downtime.

 

As it is now, groups that drop their circles on the edge of the lower platform SUFFER A HUGE DPS LOSS.

 

If you don't have a closer OR your closer is not available and the Sorcerers extrication is on cooldown - you can find yourself experiening up to 15s of downtime. Same if your phase walk or sniper thingy is on CD.

 

That is a massive DPS loss.

 

It was scary while trying to follow the recommeneded mechanics to watch our DPS drop from 19k to 34k all the way down to 13k, 14k, 15k, 18k and 19k. We were like, "Holy ****!"

 

After about 6 wipes, we had her down to about 34%.

 

My group talked about it afterwards in Discord, we were pretty confident the next time around should we form again, we would get it done by repositioning or handling mechanics a little differently.

 

Overall...

 

For SM, Bioware could make it a little easier for storymoders and puggers by reducing the size of the orange and yellow circles so as to allow them to stay up on the starting platform AND on boss 100%.

 

But those same storymoders and puggers just need to take a break - and like back in the day with The Underlurker - discuss how to address positioning WHILE following mechanics in a way that will facilitate minimal DPS downtime.

 

Just my 10 cents...

 

=8-|

[Chryptyk]

 

 

Fourth Boss

 

This boss doesn't need a nerf - but it does need either of the following:

 

1. A strategy change for the group - such as repositioning boss OR dropping circles on edge of upper platform to reduce DPS downtime.

 

2. Reduction in size of the orange and yellow circles so that they take up only a third of their current space so that they can be dropped on the edge of the upper platform without being ANYWHERE close to someone quickly scooting by - so as to again to reduce DPS downtime.

 

As it is now, groups that drop their circles on the edge of the lower platform SUFFER A HUGE DPS LOSS.

 

If you don't have a closer OR your closer is not available and the Sorcerers extrication is on cooldown - you can find yourself experiening up to 15s of downtime. Same if your phase walk or sniper thingy is on CD.

 

That is a massive DPS loss.

 

It was scary while trying to follow the recommeneded mechanics to watch our DPS drop from 19k to 34k all the way down to 13k, 14k, 15k, 18k and 19k. We were like, "Holy ****!"

 

After about 6 wipes, we had her down to about 34%.

 

My group talked about it afterwards in Discord, we were pretty confident the next time around should we form again, we would get it done by repositioning or handling mechanics a little differently.

 

Overall...

 

For SM, Bioware could make it a little easier for storymoders and puggers by reducing the size of the orange and yellow circles so as to allow them to stay up on the starting platform AND on boss 100%.

 

But those same storymoders and puggers just need to take a break - and like back in the day with The Underlurker - discuss how to address positioning WHILE following mechanics in a way that will facilitate minimal DPS downtime.

 

Just my 10 cents...

 

=8-|

 

The real challenge doesn't really start until burn phase, which you didn't see. During which, you'll have to overcome recursive, reapers, and monstrosities all at once. That's the part that overcomes SM players. Until then, it's really not that bad.

[Gyronamics]

My group was a PUG, with 1 Tank, 5 DPS and 2 Sorc Healers.

 

NO NERF IS NEEDED

 

That's an interesting role composition to justify that any of the fights are ok

 

A modern operation that appears in gf asking for 2/4/2 should actually have the fights require 2/4/2

Edited August 13, 2022 by Gyronamics

[Toraak]

That's an interesting role composition to justify that any of the fights are ok

 

A modern operation that appears in gf asking for 2/4/2 should actually have the fights require 2/4/2

 

I agree with this. If the fights aren't balanced around having 2 tanks, 4 dps, and 2 healers then the balance is incorrect. In which case the DPS checks should be reduced or something. No group should need to have 1 tank, 5 dps, 2 healers.

 

On a side note I've heard of groups doing 6 dps, and 2 healers which means balance is definitely off then, since no tank is required.

[Deaconik]

That's an interesting role composition to justify that any of the fights are ok

 

A modern operation that appears in gf asking for 2/4/2 should actually have the fights require 2/4/2

 

Which of the GF operations are balanced for 2/4/2? You do realize people argument by using DF which can be literally run by 8 DPS or 7 DPS and 1 heal?

 

Edit> Also I would like to point out that balancing for 2/4/2 means more damage output on bosses so a tank is truly needed -> means more healing required from people. Also requires tanks to know what to do

Because now we have less DPS players we need more DPS output from players (see above the outcry about DPS checks being too high). You can say - let's just lower the DPS check - if you lower it, people then gonna run it without tanks because if you kill the boss fast enough DPS with some defensives can tank it

Edited August 13, 2022 by Deaconik

[Chryptyk]

Fights should be based around average skill for that level of content. Higher skill should allow you to retune your group comp around what you can get away with. Fights should NOT be based around a non-standard group configuration just to beat it (IE run 5 or 6 dps just to beat the dps check on a boss).

[Gyronamics]

Which of the GF operations are balanced for 2/4/2? You do realize people argument by using DF which can be literally run by 8 DPS or 7 DPS and 1 heal?

 

Edit> Also I would like to point out that balancing for 2/4/2 means more damage output on bosses so a tank is truly needed -> means more healing required from people. Also requires tanks to know what to do

Because now we have less DPS players we need more DPS output from players (see above the outcry about DPS checks being too high). You can say - let's just lower the DPS check - if you lower it, people then gonna run it without tanks because if you kill the boss fast enough DPS with some defensives can tank it

 

If you think DF is a quality balance example then say it yourself

 

I say that running 1/5/2 is not a good start to saying anything nice about R4 balance.

[Sikssix]

Top current DPS is above 30k without 340 gear. So asking 20k for the top PvE content is TOO MUCH? It's almost half of the top parses Also with some proper AoE classes you can do less, we killed Lady D with 30k Jugg, 29k Assassin and 17, 18 and 19k DPS =)

 

and yet most players I meet do less than 20K DPS in like every fight, so those players that do more than 30K DPS are the top DPS players in the game, now I don't know how to do so much DPS all the time and I'm sure most players don't know either so what you are saying is false and we need a nerf against Dominique .

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The ones pulling the best numbers are playing strong AoE specs. Their numbers might look high, but the damage on boss is a lot less. However, you kinda need those specs to handle adds quickly. As someone who has cleared this and watched other groups pulling it, every single one of them has had 2 or 3 strong AoE specs, so the numbers are deceptive.

 

While yes you do need "decent" numbers, the mechanics involved are not SM mechanics. It is a lie to call it such. Even Izax wasn't this bad at launch. Now all you need to do to win is be able to drop shields, interrupt, and then survive missiles. Note that there was only 1 mechanic per phase to overcome. With Lady D, the situation is you have knockbacks, stuns, and adds that will eat people alive all in burn. You can't seriously be able to expect SM players to be able to handle all of that at once. And to repeat, the only people that have cleared this encounter have been dedicated raiders.

 

It is a disservice to every non-prog raider (the vast majority of players) to call this a SM. Those of you with timers, have recleared everything in 7.0 already, we get it, you're good. Everyone else isn't that good. You have HM to bang on, or farm if you've already cleared it. The rest of us can't do that. We know. We just want a SM that is actually SM and let people do their story.

 

I can pull 32K on a dummy (not debuffed) as watchman spec with full 330, full IR300 augments, and 334 implants. As concealment operative/ scrapper scoundrel I can hit 31K on a dummy (debuffed), with almost everyhing previously stated but 326 implants as well as main and offhands being at 330 with 286 augments. THAT being said, it isn't about AOEs usually, those doing a lot of DPS because of AOEs are doing their job specifically in certain fights, which boils down to mechanics. In operation runs, NiM specifically, there are fights where my DPS looks garbage is because there are mechanics, Thrasher being an example, I am hunting for the bombardiers, or if it's most NiM boss fights I am usually on the top. Why? Because I can faceroll my keyboard hard on the boss as much as I am able to until I have to peel off for whatever reason. There are more technical fights where I can't do any DPS because of:

1. My opener takes time to build up if I am specced for higher DPS, so by the time my DoTs are on the enemy/enemies, my team has already killed things and my DoTs were wasted.

2. There are plenty of adds and the team is smashing literally everything.

 

To an extent, SM should be puggable, at the same time, mechanics should still apply. It is up to the individual to learn the fight, if they demand to be carried and literally do nothing, or even follow mechanics, that is on them, but don't take the team down. It was the same for 1.0 when EV and KP were relevant. Some of the mechanics in SM do need adjusting yes, but to remove them or nerf them to beyond isn't calling justice for it. More importantly, for other classes that have little to negative amount of defensive cooldowns (looking at anything tech at this point), they need those back so they can survive, however, I doubt that will be fixed because of PVP.

 

After practicing HM mechanics on SM for R4, we noticed how stupid smooth some of the fights are. And that is just that. Especially looking at the first boss. It seems like it's a lot, because there is, there are some things that can be adjusted to make it slightly more friendly, but the mechanics should stay. This will teach any player to understand not just how the fight goes, but how their specific character works, the quirks, the benefits, literally anything. This isn't meant to be a jab to casual players and what not, I only say this to help encourage casual players enjoy their class the more reason. Trust me when I say this, I used to play super hard back in the day, due to life, I had to step back a bit, I miss doing a bunch of NiM content to the point where we could clear it in ridiculous ways, I plan to get back to that but our team needs some work together, but we still plan to keep casual.

 

To call R4 SM non-progressive is bit of a long shot, but I wouldn't dismiss it completely. I agree, some of us are good, or some others are better, and most are not great. We all started somewhere. It is never too late to try your best and have fun. R4 SM does need work, but the mechanics shouldn't be nullified. HM however, That too needs work but there is proof of people clearing it all in HM and some people are full 340 (purple) too. That should tell us it is clearable. But even some of those guys are saying it needs a lot of work too.

[Chryptyk]

I can pull 32K on a dummy (not debuffed) as watchman spec with full 330, full IR300 augments, and 334 implants. As concealment operative/ scrapper scoundrel I can hit 31K on a dummy (debuffed), with almost everyhing previously stated but 326 implants as well as main and offhands being at 330 with 286 augments. THAT being said, it isn't about AOEs usually, those doing a lot of DPS because of AOEs are doing their job specifically in certain fights, which boils down to mechanics. In operation runs, NiM specifically, there are fights where my DPS looks garbage is because there are mechanics, Thrasher being an example, I am hunting for the bombardiers, or if it's most NiM boss fights I am usually on the top. Why? Because I can faceroll my keyboard hard on the boss as much as I am able to until I have to peel off for whatever reason. There are more technical fights where I can't do any DPS because of:

1. My opener takes time to build up if I am specced for higher DPS, so by the time my DoTs are on the enemy/enemies, my team has already killed things and my DoTs were wasted.

2. There are plenty of adds and the team is smashing literally everything.

 

To an extent, SM should be puggable, at the same time, mechanics should still apply. It is up to the individual to learn the fight, if they demand to be carried and literally do nothing, or even follow mechanics, that is on them, but don't take the team down. It was the same for 1.0 when EV and KP were relevant. Some of the mechanics in SM do need adjusting yes, but to remove them or nerf them to beyond isn't calling justice for it. More importantly, for other classes that have little to negative amount of defensive cooldowns (looking at anything tech at this point), they need those back so they can survive, however, I doubt that will be fixed because of PVP.

 

After practicing HM mechanics on SM for R4, we noticed how stupid smooth some of the fights are. And that is just that. Especially looking at the first boss. It seems like it's a lot, because there is, there are some things that can be adjusted to make it slightly more friendly, but the mechanics should stay. This will teach any player to understand not just how the fight goes, but how their specific character works, the quirks, the benefits, literally anything. This isn't meant to be a jab to casual players and what not, I only say this to help encourage casual players enjoy their class the more reason. Trust me when I say this, I used to play super hard back in the day, due to life, I had to step back a bit, I miss doing a bunch of NiM content to the point where we could clear it in ridiculous ways, I plan to get back to that but our team needs some work together, but we still plan to keep casual.

 

To call R4 SM non-progressive is bit of a long shot, but I wouldn't dismiss it completely. I agree, some of us are good, or some others are better, and most are not great. We all started somewhere. It is never too late to try your best and have fun. R4 SM does need work, but the mechanics shouldn't be nullified. HM however, That too needs work but there is proof of people clearing it all in HM and some people are full 340 (purple) too. That should tell us it is clearable. But even some of those guys are saying it needs a lot of work too.

 

The AoE part was referring only to the Lady D fight. The rest I know. Also good for you being able to pull those numbers. You're way above average. And that's the point. The average player is incapable of pulling the numbers or doing that many mechanics all at once in burn. A previous poster commented on that they didn't believe it needed a nerf either, but they had yet to see the burn phase. The burn phase is where the real fight is. The rest is pretty easy.

 

SM is supposed to be designed for average people, not the top. HM has been cleared.... only by sales team caliber players. The rest of the current NiM community is not doing so well. SM players are SM players for a reason. They don't want to progress beyond that, and they deserve an op that they can actually complete.

 

If people want to progress beyond SM, then great, they can work their way up. However, they should not be forced to do so just to clear a supposed SM op. Without a change, they'll be forced to buy a run just to complete their story, which is so messed up. It shouldn't have to be that way.

 

7.0 has basically created a cast system. Between tuning and gear (and now mechanics), either you're good or you're crap is basically how it is now. It has lead to people leaving in droves. So yeah, keep on with the current course where only the best people can clear something or get what they want is a great idea. Real smart strategy when we're bleeding players.

[Deaconik]

If you think DF is a quality balance example then say it yourself

 

I say that running 1/5/2 is not a good start to saying anything nice about R4 balance.

 

I didn't say that, did i? I said that no operation in the GF is. Read it again

 

Also I said that tuning it for 2/4/2 will bring much harder SM operation as a result, which is a funny thing to think about

Edited August 14, 2022 by Deaconik

[Shwarzchild]

The AoE part was referring only to the Lady D fight. The rest I know. Also good for you being able to pull those numbers. You're way above average. And that's the point. The average player is incapable of pulling the numbers or doing that many mechanics all at once in burn. A previous poster commented on that they didn't believe it needed a nerf either, but they had yet to see the burn phase. The burn phase is where the real fight is. The rest is pretty easy.

 

SM is supposed to be designed for average people, not the top. HM has been cleared.... only by sales team caliber players. The rest of the current NiM community is not doing so well. SM players are SM players for a reason. They don't want to progress beyond that, and they deserve an op that they can actually complete.

 

If people want to progress beyond SM, then great, they can work their way up. However, they should not be forced to do so just to clear a supposed SM op. Without a change, they'll be forced to buy a run just to complete their story, which is so messed up. It shouldn't have to be that way.

 

7.0 has basically created a cast system. Between tuning and gear (and now mechanics), either you're good or you're crap is basically how it is now. It has lead to people leaving in droves. So yeah, keep on with the current course where only the best people can clear something or get what they want is a great idea. Real smart strategy when we're bleeding players.

 

This last part is an overreaction. All players have access to 330 gear whether it be from upgrading flashpoint gear, R4 token drops, or getting moddable gear from Hyde and Zeek. All players can upgrade their legendary implants to 334. There is nothing stopping a player who wants to play group content from upgrading their gear to help them meet the minimum required performance goals of each fight in R4. I do agree with people that certain fights in R4 should have have some changes to story mode specifically. Namely, the monstrosities in story mode should be removed or changed, and on IP the group in story should only be required to hit 2 consoles instead of 4. Mechanics are important so they shouldn't be totally abandoned like for example Kephess in TfB.

 

The idea that there is this caste system between those who are terrible and those who are good is all in a player's head. Again, there is nothing stopping a player from "getting gud". Or at least "getting gud enough". One of the primary problems in this game is that the game doesn't adequately train a player on how to play their desired classes well. It is more on a player than the game to learn and improve which I would absolutely agree is an issue. Telling a player how to do something through a wall of text in a help menu is not efficient. Introducing a player to their abilities by forcing them to use the abilities (a la FF) is a way more efficient philosophy. That being said, this idea that story mode players can't improve is not correct. They can, and they should. I am someone who believes this game suffered from the dumbing down of the content over the years. Expecting a player to learn a little bit through failure should not be looked at as a problem. If in maybe 6 months from now R4 is still "impossible to pug" then it should absolutely be changed to allow more groups to progress through it. But right now, it's been out so short a time that it's normal to experience failure in it. I know patience isn't a virtue around here, nor is trying and failing and then learning and then trying and succeeding. But, I'd very much like those things to re-develop in the population.

[Gyronamics]

I didn't say that, did i? I said that no operation in the GF is. Read it again

 

Also I said that tuning it for 2/4/2 will bring much harder SM operation as a result, which is a funny thing to think about

 

So it was a waste of time to mention DF right.

 

You think 2/4/2 makes it harder do you?

 

I wonder why I said running 1/5/2 is not a good start to saying anything nice about R4 balance

Edited August 14, 2022 by Gyronamics

[Sikssix]

The AoE part was referring only to the Lady D fight. The rest I know. Also good for you being able to pull those numbers. You're way above average. And that's the point. The average player is incapable of pulling the numbers or doing that many mechanics all at once in burn. A previous poster commented on that they didn't believe it needed a nerf either, but they had yet to see the burn phase. The burn phase is where the real fight is. The rest is pretty easy.

 

SM is supposed to be designed for average people, not the top. HM has been cleared.... only by sales team caliber players. The rest of the current NiM community is not doing so well. SM players are SM players for a reason. They don't want to progress beyond that, and they deserve an op that they can actually complete.

 

If people want to progress beyond SM, then great, they can work their way up. However, they should not be forced to do so just to clear a supposed SM op. Without a change, they'll be forced to buy a run just to complete their story, which is so messed up. It shouldn't have to be that way.

 

7.0 has basically created a cast system. Between tuning and gear (and now mechanics), either you're good or you're crap is basically how it is now. It has lead to people leaving in droves. So yeah, keep on with the current course where only the best people can clear something or get what they want is a great idea. Real smart strategy when we're bleeding players.

 

Not trying to single people or players out. Not trying to defend on how SM R4 feels. Something does feel off about it, and needs to be balanced out. However, I believe it should help the new and very casual players get into operations. R4 isn't quite doing that.

[Chryptyk]

This last part is an overreaction. All players have access to 330 gear whether it be from upgrading flashpoint gear, R4 token drops, or getting moddable gear from Hyde and Zeek. All players can upgrade their legendary implants to 334. There is nothing stopping a player who wants to play group content from upgrading their gear to help them meet the minimum required performance goals of each fight in R4. I do agree with people that certain fights in R4 should have have some changes to story mode specifically. Namely, the monstrosities in story mode should be removed or changed, and on IP the group in story should only be required to hit 2 consoles instead of 4. Mechanics are important so they shouldn't be totally abandoned like for example Kephess in TfB.

 

The idea that there is this caste system between those who are terrible and those who are good is all in a player's head. Again, there is nothing stopping a player from "getting gud". Or at least "getting gud enough". One of the primary problems in this game is that the game doesn't adequately train a player on how to play their desired classes well. It is more on a player than the game to learn and improve which I would absolutely agree is an issue. Telling a player how to do something through a wall of text in a help menu is not efficient. Introducing a player to their abilities by forcing them to use the abilities (a la FF) is a way more efficient philosophy. That being said, this idea that story mode players can't improve is not correct. They can, and they should. I am someone who believes this game suffered from the dumbing down of the content over the years. Expecting a player to learn a little bit through failure should not be looked at as a problem. If in maybe 6 months from now R4 is still "impossible to pug" then it should absolutely be changed to allow more groups to progress through it. But right now, it's been out so short a time that it's normal to experience failure in it. I know patience isn't a virtue around here, nor is trying and failing and then learning and then trying and succeeding. But, I'd very much like those things to re-develop in the population.

 

The majority of the player base are not raiders. They're casual. They're not gonna spend hours or weeks on a dummy to learn an optimized rotation, and then weeks or months of failing over and over again. They're just gonna quit. Not directly related to this topic but can be paralleled, things are so bad, even devs are quitting. They don't even believe in their own product anymore.

 

The game should be developed for the majority of people, not just the top ones. I understand you want people to get better, but it is unreasonable to expect them to become top tier raiders just to clear SM and then maybe, just maybe have a slim chance at beating the first boss, let alone all of R4 HM. So with a decline in population, people feeling like they're not good enough or won't develop enough, you do have the HAVES and HAVE NOTS. The HAVES will always get whatever they want, while the HAVE NOTS rarely ever will, unless they are given a level playing field. Oh wait, wasn't that what we had in 6? People were happy then? Everyone had the same gear, so they just did whatever they wanted simply just to do it or for the cheevos and not chasing after gear? What a concept!

 

I don't just play with raiders, i get around a lot. I play with people of all play styles. They all would like to do R4 SM if they have not already done so, but some of them have already resigned themselves to not getting it done, because they're told they're not good enough or they know they'll never improve to the point they need to, to get it done, because they don't have the time, nor the desire to play at that level. So telling people to get good to clear SM is invalid. This game is not built for raiding, nor for pvp, it was built for story. The mistake here was weaving some story and lore into an op that's not SM level.

[Battouuusi]

The majority of the player base are not raiders. They're casual. They're not gonna spend hours or weeks on a dummy to learn an optimized rotation, and then weeks or months of failing over and over again. They're just gonna quit. Not directly related to this topic but can be paralleled, things are so bad, even devs are quitting. They don't even believe in their own product anymore.

 

The game should be developed for the majority of people, not just the top ones. I understand you want people to get better, but it is unreasonable to expect them to become top tier raiders just to clear SM and then maybe, just maybe have a slim chance at beating the first boss, let alone all of R4 HM. So with a decline in population, people feeling like they're not good enough or won't develop enough, you do have the HAVES and HAVE NOTS. The HAVES will always get whatever they want, while the HAVE NOTS rarely ever will, unless they are given a level playing field. Oh wait, wasn't that what we had in 6? People were happy then? Everyone had the same gear, so they just did whatever they wanted simply just to do it or for the cheevos and not chasing after gear? What a concept!

 

I don't just play with raiders, i get around a lot. I play with people of all play styles. They all would like to do R4 SM if they have not already done so, but some of them have already resigned themselves to not getting it done, because they're told they're not good enough or they know they'll never improve to the point they need to, to get it done, because they don't have the time, nor the desire to play at that level. So telling people to get good to clear SM is invalid. This game is not built for raiding, nor for pvp, it was built for story. The mistake here was weaving some story and lore into an op that's not SM level.

 

______________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Chryptyk strikes again. 100% Accurate.

[Shwarzchild]

The majority of the player base are not raiders. They're casual. They're not gonna spend hours or weeks on a dummy to learn an optimized rotation, and then weeks or months of failing over and over again. They're just gonna quit. Not directly related to this topic but can be paralleled, things are so bad, even devs are quitting. They don't even believe in their own product anymore.

 

The game should be developed for the majority of people, not just the top ones. I understand you want people to get better, but it is unreasonable to expect them to become top tier raiders just to clear SM and then maybe, just maybe have a slim chance at beating the first boss, let alone all of R4 HM. So with a decline in population, people feeling like they're not good enough or won't develop enough, you do have the HAVES and HAVE NOTS. The HAVES will always get whatever they want, while the HAVE NOTS rarely ever will, unless they are given a level playing field. Oh wait, wasn't that what we had in 6? People were happy then? Everyone had the same gear, so they just did whatever they wanted simply just to do it or for the cheevos and not chasing after gear? What a concept!

 

I don't just play with raiders, i get around a lot. I play with people of all play styles. They all would like to do R4 SM if they have not already done so, but some of them have already resigned themselves to not getting it done, because they're told they're not good enough or they know they'll never improve to the point they need to, to get it done, because they don't have the time, nor the desire to play at that level. So telling people to get good to clear SM is invalid. This game is not built for raiding, nor for pvp, it was built for story. The mistake here was weaving some story and lore into an op that's not SM level.

 

I do think we are bordering on something that isn't intended. I do not expect anyone to become a nightmare level raider or anything that is involved in becoming one. I do however believe it is essential for a player to understand their classes in that they should know that x ability leads to y ability glowing and to press the now glowing ability. I do not expect them to know some optimized rotation where they never miss a beat. Errors are accepted in story mode. But I do absolutely believe that a base level of knowledge should be required when it comes to stepping into what is the top level of endgame pve content. Story mode should be forgiving...absolutely agree there. But, I do not agree that it should be so forgiving that a player should expect to one shot every boss the moment a new raid comes out. I believe that mechanics are important to help players take the steps to higher content if they so choose to. I do not believe that things should be completely avoidable. That would cheapen the content itself. When I say "get good" or "get good enough" that can be variable in the sense that I'm not saying "get nightmare good" or even "get hardmode good". But, I do believe "get prepared to step foot in a raid good" should be a thing.

[Chryptyk]

When someone says git gud, it doesn't matter if it's in a raider sense or a pvp sense, it means get on my level, as said by a nim raider or top ranked pvper. it's highly toxic.

 

I didn't say nerf it so that everyone can one-shot their way through. It does need a nerf so that most people can still complete it though, regardless of their skill level. Sure, the best people will one-shot, but they do that with every other SM already, and they rightly should be able to. That would be in line with every other SM available. And that has been my position from the start. This isn't about prog raiders, it's about everyone else, who comprise the majority of all players.

 

I haven't suggested any specific nerfs for SM yet, so i'll take a stab:

 

IP - 2 consoles vs 4 consoles, and extend the burn by 20 secs.

 

Watchdog - lower Stalker Protocol damage

 

Kannoth - slow the pace Nihrot comes out or hardened Nihrot does not hurt as bad

 

Lady D - no Monstrosities in burn and Recursive hits 2 vs 3 people

 

With those changes, I believe most people should be able to complete the operation, while still having some semblance of mechanics.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Chryptyk

[ChrisCap]

Almost 2 weeks since R4’s launch and I have to say this raid is kind of dreadful. My guild and I spent months running SM’s for tech fragments to upgrade implants on multiple alts or gold augment materials and HM’s to dust off the rust and work as an organized team however nothing could have prepared us for the mess that is R4.

 

 

First and for most before I negatively pan this raid, I would like to point out this is a fun raid when all the pieces align. The encounters are challenging, breaking up the formula with more mechanics and team work. That said, this is still a mess but, it didn’t have to be. The groups clearing it right now all have several key components in common:

 

 

1) they aren’t using the same classes from start to finish, lots of class swapping.

2) running Zero tank or 1 tank/1heal group for maximum DPS sounds optimal except Swtor raids have never been released this way, overtime you can cheese with better gear but to just sit out tanks and heals or tell them to play dps is discouraging.

3) All kills as I’ve seen so far in posted screen shots or on star parse are utilizing a Pyrotech for the Last Fight.

 

 

These 3 components are the most common I’ve seen over the successful groups who have either taken down SM R4 or recently the team that took down HM R4 running 1 tank and healer + pyrotech. Seems something is really off and it has to be the fact we can’t gear for HM R4 to run another wise optimal traditional group.

 

 

SM R4 token doesn't make any sense whatsoever when your own internal testing team took down R4 in Blue 340 gear…Seriously why is their 2 R4 tokens and 2 gear paths locked behind 1 difficulty? It doesn’t make any sense, realistically the R4 tokens should just be universal allowing you to buy 332 gear (blue) and upgrade it utilizing all currencies in game, that way all content remains relevant while funneling all through R4. The true reward of 340 purple gear should absolutely be locked behind HM boss kills which again creates the incentive for the few that would. Doesn’t this sound like “natural progression” or does an ops team of 8 class's swapping every boss and eventually ditching tanks and healers for a range/AoE heavy group gaining both gear progressions simultaneously sound like “natural progression”

 

 

“I FEEL LIKE IM TAKING CRAZY PILLS” what is wrong with this raid?? You mean to say killing the first boss in R4 HM awards everyone a token for 332 while a lucky 2 get a 340 piece on top of the 332 pieces. So 2/8 get 340 and 8/8 get 332 at the same time. 10 pieces of loot for 1 HM kill and absolutely nothing for SM yet your own testing team needed 340 blue to complete R4 HM…. Why?! And how did this get passed to live??

 

 

In closing, my guild is taking a beating on Dominique SM getting her 9/8% while in HM we can get to phase 2 on first boss but we have to run 6/2 set up with zero tank which feels unnatural with players who haven’t DPS munch but spent the last few months+ gearing gold augs for tank equipment. You either allow us to buy 332 blue gear and upgrade using all currencies available or nerf R4 to put it line with other 8-man raid teams using a traditional 2/4/2 set up or don’t and watch the unsubs as you did with Gods, one of the worst raids in the game that “no one asked for”

Edited August 15, 2022 by ChrisCap

[Crystal_Mind]

My guild is newbie-friendly, and we have several players who--while not new to the game, are on the older side. One gentleman I frequently raid with for SM is in his 80s. Just looking at the first boss, between the floor hazards and the dps check, it's a very, very big ask for some players.

 

And I'll be honest--there's a part of me that hates to say this kind of thing. Because all the SM ops overall are in a terrible state of cakewalk, fall-asleep simplicity. And then the devs give us R4, and suddenly I have guildies who really, REALLY want to have fun with some new piece of content... and where R4 is right now I have to be very careful about how I organize those runs. I should not have to run dps numbers in my head when forming a group for SM. I should be able to take almost any combination of my guildies and--with the appropriate callouts and minimal wipes--clear.

 

Right now, I've only cleared SM R4 in my HM teams. Those teams didn't really struggle once we understood the mechs, but I can't say the same for when I've tried to run the op in our usual SM pick-up groups. There simply isn't enough room for error.

 

There has to be a middle ground between the current mind-numbing state of legacy SM and the current scaling of R4 SM.

[eabevella]

I'm going to give my honest assessment of R-4 SM.

 

My group was a PUG, with 1 Tank, 5 DPS and 2 Sorc Healers.

 

Only ONE of use had done ALL 4 bosses.

 

The rest of us were there for the very first time.

 

First Boss

 

We steam rolled it - didn't blink an eye - with all DPS doing 19k to 34k. Heals was so rediculously easy we were DPSsing as well. No one died.

 

NO NERF IS NEEDED

 

 

Second Boss

 

We steam rolled it - didnt blink an eye - with all DPS again doing 19k to 34k. Heals had to stick more with heals and sometimes work the panels. ONE person died - me - a healer.

 

NO NERF IS NEEDED

 

 

Third Boss

 

Required 2 shots. First shot, we came super close - but that wipe told us ALL THAT WE NEEDED TO KNOW.

 

Second shot was an absolute faceroll - myself on heals spamming the floor tile cleanse using either ability as needed.

 

Again...our DPS rocked.

 

NO NERF IS NEEDED

 

...then it was time for the last boss.

 

 

Fourth Boss

 

This boss doesn't need a nerf - but it does need either of the following:

 

1. A strategy change for the group - such as repositioning boss OR dropping circles on edge of upper platform to reduce DPS downtime.

 

2. Reduction in size of the orange and yellow circles so that they take up only a third of their current space so that they can be dropped on the edge of the upper platform without being ANYWHERE close to someone quickly scooting by - so as to again to reduce DPS downtime.

 

As it is now, groups that drop their circles on the edge of the lower platform SUFFER A HUGE DPS LOSS.

 

If you don't have a closer OR your closer is not available and the Sorcerers extrication is on cooldown - you can find yourself experiening up to 15s of downtime. Same if your phase walk or sniper thingy is on CD.

 

That is a massive DPS loss.

 

It was scary while trying to follow the recommeneded mechanics to watch our DPS drop from 19k to 34k all the way down to 13k, 14k, 15k, 18k and 19k. We were like, "Holy ****!"

 

After about 6 wipes, we had her down to about 34%.

 

My group talked about it afterwards in Discord, we were pretty confident the next time around should we form again, we would get it done by repositioning or handling mechanics a little differently.

 

Overall...

 

For SM, Bioware could make it a little easier for storymoders and puggers by reducing the size of the orange and yellow circles so as to allow them to stay up on the starting platform AND on boss 100%.

 

But those same storymoders and puggers just need to take a break - and like back in the day with The Underlurker - discuss how to address positioning WHILE following mechanics in a way that will facilitate minimal DPS downtime.

 

Just my 10 cents...

 

=8-|

 

If you talked about the raid afterward and the possibility of a reformed team, you're not really in an average Pug group *laughcry* You probably just got lucky and got a group of experienced raiders who happened to not have cleared R4. That won't happened 90% of the time for an average Pug group.

 

PS: people still wiped on SM DF because it's been tuned down so much in 7.1 (?) that people don't even use strategy - no matter how mediocre they are. It's a recent change that I really hate.

[Galbsadi]

My group was a PUG, with 1 Tank, 5 DPS and 2 Sorc Healers.

with all DPS again doing 19k to 34k.

 

While this is great for you, this is also why your entire post should be not considered as typical of the average SM experience.

 

Let's bring in some data:

Ruffian/Lethality is currently the top parsing on IPCPT. Per your group with 19-34k DPS, we can presume an average of somewhere around 26.5k DPS from a given DPS in your group. If constrained to the typical 2/4/2 setup, similar total DPS would require an average of 33.1k DPS from a given DPS in the group. As the top parsing DPS on average, Ruffian/Lethality averages a median of 13.6k DPS, or about half of what your average group member put out, or about 2/3 of what your WORST group member put out. Again, that's the median for the best spec in the game for that boss on SM (per Parsely). Interesting side fact, the highest 99th percentile parse for that boss on Parsely is around 22k. You said your group had an high of 34k on that boss.

 

On Watchdog, the highest parsing spec is Watchman/Annihilation, at a median of 25.2k DPS. At least that almost matches the average for your group, but still falls short of the required DPS overall to match your group. The highest 99th percentile parse went to Serenity/Hatred, at 42.7k.

 

On Kanoth, the highest parsing spec is again Watchman/Annihilation, at a median of 18.4k DPS. The highest 99th percentile parse went to Vigilance/Vengeance, at 27.8k.

 

Lastly, on Dom, the highest parsing spec was Saboteur/Engineering, at a median of 27.2k DPS. The highest 99th percentile parse went to Vigilance/Vengeance, at 39.6k.

 

All of these have the same common factor: the median parse among the TOP PERFORMING SPEC for each boss was typically LOWER than the average dps among your "pug group" that STILL needed to go 1/5/2 instead of the 2/4/2 the fight was supposedly designed around (and had your group gone 2/4/2, to have the same total DPS, you would have needed to increase even your group's average DPS by about 25% to have the same results).

 

The op is definitely clearable, nobody's saying it's not, but it is mis-tuned. Quite frankly, the DPS requirements in R-4 SM are higher than HM SNV's last boss (which is usually a sign of the first 'true' HM). Mechanics are equally unforgiving. Doable, yes, but current R4 SM is a HM raid pretending to be a SM (and I'd presume that HM R4 is probably a NiM pretending to be a HM).