Jump to content

New SWTOR Forums are now live! ×

New Changes with 7.1 - Spec Combat/Carnage


 Share

Recommended Posts

Hello dev-team,

 

i got a bone to pick with you are u seriously removing the most important passive defensive perk of a class who is lacking heal abilities because it is no Merc, operative or sorcerer OR tank dcd abilities because it is no juggernaut, Powertech or assassin???

 

Thats fine alright. But u can benefit from it for 20 sec. every 5 min.?? Do you even play marauder at all?

I hope that is all a mistake and u meant predation instead of bloodthirst.

 

Next this:

 

Carnage Marauders are receiving a new Tactical to replace Fanged God Form

 

Shard of Mortis - Using Massacre / Blade Rush adds Hyper stacks to you, increasing your critical chance by 25% per stack and increasing the cost of your next Massacre / Blade Rush by 1 rage / focus per stack, up to 3. When you deal damage with another ability, Hyper is removed.

 

What is that ****? it is good for increased crit and all but the cost make it impossible to play it all that tactical is dead before it is released. If u bring it like that i think i will stick to "overwhelmed offense" it is way better than shards of mortis as it is right now. If u want to keep shard of mortis this way i would recomend cost of 1 rage / focus every 3 sec. and not every 1 sec. Massacre / bladerush was always one of the core abilities of this spec (Carnage/combat). If it is used to often thats how this spec works as fille to get to the precision stacks again and high dps abilities.

 

Here is an example why i dont think this tactical won work at all for most people who are still passionately playing combat/carnage but you dump the passions with these "improvements" for the spec.

 

https://parsely.io/parser/view/661996/0

 

End of my grumbling now. I hope you consider changing the tactical and maybe give the execute passive 15% instead of 10% that would be lovely and absolutely needed.

 

Cheers and may the force be with you :rak_03:

Edited by alexroof
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

The marauder/sentinel is very weirdly addressed.

 

In PvP, the most prevalent complain is Defel Spliced gene that basically makes killing a marauder impossible because of infinite resets if played correctly. They decided to not touch it.

 

The Fury/Concentration spec has been overperforming by about 1500-2000 but gives up 10k HPS to their watchman/annihilation.

 

And the result is that they decided to remove the aoe damage reduction from marauder altogether.

Remember that they are competing for slots where pyro has 30% aoe permanent dr, 30% periodic reduction, heavy armor, rebounder, kotlo, energy shield, Thermal yield, Close and personal healing which is about 3 to 4k personal hps AND the highest dps in the game both in single target and cleave and have some range on every skill.

 

Meanwhile the carnage spec new 'talent' is redundant with first row gore resets and does not fix the fact that no one in their right mind would do any content with a spec with such low burst, low dps and no utility whatsoever unless they intend to grief their teammates.

 

I'm actually hesitant to post this message because I know what will happen, bioware will see the feedback that pyro is too good and will proceed to nerf it instead of meaningfullyy address to underlying problem. Remember what a buff is ? I don't, developpers seem determined to have their players feel less powerful with each patch with nerfs and prunes that make the gameplay less rewarding and more pigeon-holding into meta choices.

 

Remember that most HC prog groups are already taking 4 pyro 2 heal 2 tanks because the game is significantly easier with that comp and some still struggle to reclear after the 7.0 fiasco. Bioware needs to stop nerfing things and revisit their baffling choices at 7.0. (Healing burst ? *** ?)

Edited by Drokisannath
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
Says nothing if you're wrong.

 

By what measure is this 10k difference found here and now in patch 7.1

 

The boys and girls have been out practising for a while now and you can see the results: https://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard/all/all/6500000/all/live/1/

 

Your citing an outlier that had an 80% crit count. It is the only Carnage on the list and all the other specs have multiple representations, carnage just has the one. Even that is behind both Fury and Annihilation and many other specs as well.

 

That guy had a 4 leaf clover up his butt and was sneezing lucky charms.

 

I've been playing Carnage for 8 years, I don't play anything else. I was a HM/NiM Progression raider and ranked player. I can't get anywhere near that.

 

Shard of Mortis has a slight DPS increase, but at the cost of enjoyment. You're forced to use basic attack at times and mistakes are even more unforgiving with it.. Carnage already had resource management issues and this didn't help that. It changes the rotation and there is also a delay when you stop using massacre before you get the rage refund. - I loved spamming Massacre, and now you really can't do that. There is constant uncertainty in the filler leading to Berserk and makes the rotation clunky. It also seems to lower APMs.

 

Carnage is a burst spec [at least its suppose to be], the tactical should address the specs main intent. The tactical makes carnage less fun to play. The normal rotation is so much smoother and more reliable.

 

 

They should make a tactical that improves the quality of play. Carnage is so fast and that smoothness is vital to it's proper usage and enjoyment. The tactical should benefit it's burst capabilities. Trying to have a 3 hyper stack on your first burst attack in the Berserk window places battering assault after that, so your not aligning ferocity with battering assault as they both have the same cooldown. The rotation than is counter-intuitive and really messes with your instincts if you have been playing Carnage for a long time.

 

A dummy parse is one thing, a real fight is a whole other beast.

 

Micro-managing play is for DoT specs, not burst specs. So with it you have to track rage stacks [30], ferocity stacks [6] and hyper stacks [3]. Not fun.

 

Quite honestly, the slight DPS increase isn't sufficient to get carnage out of the low end and that gain comes at the cost of enjoyment and play-style.

 

Fanged God/Shard of Mortis - That ain't Carnage. - Make mine 3.0/4.0. That was Carnage.

 

I love carnage and I still play it., but Carnage has never been worse than it's current state IMO.

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your citing an outlier that had an 80% crit count. It is the only Carnage on the list and all the other specs have multiple representations, carnage just has the one. Even that is behind both Fury and Annihilation and many other specs as well.

 

That guy had a 4 leaf clover up his butt and was sneezing lucky charms.

 

I've been playing Carnage for 8 years, I don't play anything else. I was a HM/NiM Progression raider and ranked player. I can't get anywhere near that.

 

Shard of Mortis has a slight DPS increase, but at the cost of enjoyment. You're forced to use basic attack at times and mistakes are even more unforgiving with it.. Carnage already had resource management issues and this didn't help that. It changes the rotation and there is also a delay when you stop using massacre before you get the rage refund. - I loved spamming Massacre, and now you really can't do that. There is constant uncertainty in the filler leading to Berserk and makes the rotation clunky. It also seems to lower APMs.

 

Carnage is a burst spec [at least its suppose to be], the tactical should address the specs main intent. The tactical makes carnage less fun to play. The normal rotation is so much smoother and more reliable.

 

 

They should make a tactical that improves the quality of play. Carnage is so fast and that smoothness is vital to it's proper usage and enjoyment. The tactical should benefit it's burst capabilities. Trying to have a 3 hyper stack on your first burst attack in the Berserk window places battering assault after that, so your not aligning ferocity with battering assault as they both have the same cooldown. The rotation than is counter-intuitive and really messes with your instincts if you have been playing Carnage for a long time.

 

A dummy parse is one thing, a real fight is a whole other beast.

 

Micro-managing play is for DoT specs, not burst specs. So with it you have to track rage stacks [30], ferocity stacks [6] and hyper stacks [3]. Not fun.

 

Quite honestly, the slight DPS increase isn't sufficient to get carnage out of the low end and that gain comes at the cost of enjoyment and play-style.

 

Fanged God/Shard of Mortis - That ain't Carnage. - Make mine 3.0/4.0. That was Carnage.

 

I love carnage and I still play it., but Carnage has never been worse than it's current state IMO.

 

I didn't specify any parse. I linked an entire website.

 

There's over 40 carnage/combat parses for 7.1: https://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard/all/carnage/6500000/all/live/1/

 

"dot" anything would need to be doing 40,000+dps on 6.5m dummies to be 10k ahead and it's not the case.

 

There's nothing else I'm arguing, maybe it does play like **** but 10k worse is not the case.

Edited by Gyronamics
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't specify any parse. I linked an entire website.

 

There's over 40 carnage/combat parses for 7.1: https://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard/all/carnage/6500000/all/live/1/

 

"dot" anything would need to be doing 40,000+dps on 6.5m dummies to be 10k ahead and it's not the case.

 

There's nothing else I'm arguing, maybe it does play like **** but 10k worse is not the case.

 

 

Fair enough. And I do agree, it's definitely not 10 k behind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been very active on the forums about combat/carnage being a disaster whenever i could.When i read the patch notes i was of the impression that they just brought fanged god back, but then i read more carefully. 1 extra focus/rage per hyper stack?

Are those devs on some heavy drugs or are they just disabled. Which imbelcile though it was a good idea to add a tactical that only further strains the abhorrent resourse management that the spec suffrs from. No spec in the game should be forced to use basic attacks to keep up their rotation.

These people are so clueless it's not even funny. It's like they are trying to do everything but the thing that actually needs doing. BIOWARE brings me in awe as to how consistently thet can make the completely wrong decision, believing it's the right one. Well maybe their budged just gets wasted on cocaine and thats why the game is in the state it is in.

Edited by Spasi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been very active on the forums about combat/carnage being a disaster whenever i could.When i read the patch notes i was of the impression that they just brought fanged god back, but then i read more carefully. 1 extra focus/rage per hyper stack?

Are those devs on some heavy drugs or are they just disabled. Which imbelcile though it was a good idea to add a tactical that only further strains the abhorrent resourse management that the spec suffrs from. No spec in the game should be forced to use basic attacks to keep up their rotation.

These people are so clueless it's not even funny. It's like they are trying to do everything but the thing that actually needs doing. BIOWARE brings me in awe as to how consistently thet can make the completely wrong decision, believing it's the right one. Well maybe their budged just gets wasted on cocaine and thats why the game is in the state it is in.

 

I've seen some of your posts, so I know what you are saying.

 

Ya know, I never liked the Fanged God tactical in the first place. Carnage is a burst spec and these tactical that emphasize a filler attack make no sense. It's bad enough that we don't even have enough burst attacks to fill our ferocity windows with. Every other window we are forced to use massacre as one of our 'burst attacks' pre-execute phase. What is that? They made Ravage do less than a filler attack when it use to be one of our prime burst attacks. I don't understand how they can't see the fact that we need to use a filler attack [massacre] every other burst window, and than they wonder why our DPS is so poor. Give us Ravage back as a burst attack [increase the damage to burst attack levels] with no rage cost and that will help Carnage a lot. It will increase our burst damage and help with our poor resource management issues.

 

Even in the execute phase [sub 30%] when we can use Vicious Throw in our non-berserk window, we can't have it buffed by our implant to make it a critical hit in both windows and sometimes it does like 27-32k damage! What kind of burst attack does that little damage? It's just like using massacre in the window than anyways. Even if you are lucky enough for it to crit on it's own, your still talking 40k range damage. That's like gore. Which is also a pretty piss poor burst attack.

 

You got Fury and Rage and other specs, dropping 80, 90k bombs on the regular.

 

I'm not gonna get into Fury, everyone knows about Fury. But, non pure-DPS classes who have off role abilties and self heals, and they have so much better DPS than us. It doesn't make sense.

 

We have to choose between an important DCD or a stun. We need the DCD so that means we get no stuns. Not an issue into Raiding really, but in PVP that matters alot with all the stuns that get thrown around every three seconds and we have none.

 

Its very good they have us CC immunity with using Ferocity, that was a help for sure, but, again, in Raiding, that really doesn't matter all that much overall. There are some specific exceptions, but generally speaking not much of an issue and so if you are a raider and not into pvp, that change matters much less. I won't speak for the new operation, I'm not that familiar with it yet to comment.

 

The 5% increase on DB is so small they might as well not have given it to use at all for all the difference it makes.

The minor DPS increase we got did nothing to take us out of the position we were already in.

 

No one wants Carnage. Now that I have been getting back into raiding again, as a former HM/NiM Progression

raider, no one wants me because I play Carnage, even with Dragonslayer and Manhunter titles.

 

People shouldn't have to change their spec to be viable or wanted. I only play the one character, I've always played Carnage for the 8 years I've played the game and I will always play Carnage.

 

I haven't gotten back into PVPing again since I been back [i was away for about a year], I'm still just gearing up. I can't see using Mortis tactical in PVP with the resource management issues, and even tho its a slight DPS increase on a dummy, in a real fight things are not going to go that smoothly and the playstyle is cluncky as hell, rage management is a nightmare and you can forget about spamming massacre like you use to be able to. Without a perfect rotation without interruptions, which you are never gonna get in a real fight, especially with all the CC, roots and slows in PVP, you better like using basic attack. And I wouldn't be caught dead using the Defel tactical. No self-respecting Marauder would. Marauders don't run and hide, they bring as many people screaming to hell with them as they can.

 

You're never gonna get widespeard to support to buffing a Marauder spec to the level Carnage needs. Because people say "Marauder" when what they really mean is Fury.

 

I'm a Carnage Marauder. Period. Not a good thing to be these days.

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you sure you play the right utilities and the right rotation?

 

As an example, in your previous post you say that one parse had over 80 % crit. Well, every good carnage parse has over 80 % crit. You can do a good parse with a lower crit rating - e.g. my worse parse has just 75 % because of the bad rotation :)

 

When I use dispatch during the precision window (and yes, you're supposed to use it there) - it hits like a truck, we talking about average crit for almost 75 k. What do you want more? Clashing blast averages for 60k, dispatch for 75k. That's 130k damage delivered in two hits, slightly less outside of the Zen.

 

Also the thing that groups look for most of the time IMO is a universal player. While Carnage is in a good shape, really is, on many bosses the aditional healing from annihilation is simply too good to not be used. It's like saying - I can play fury and nobody wants me - sure, maybe because there are bosses where fury is just bad. And it's not just the additional healing - currently the most operation looked for is R4 HM where the first and the last boss require more AoE focused specs. While you can play carnage there if the group is fine with it, annihilation is the way to go.

 

Also also - nowadays people look for a different Slayer title, Dragonslayer is not an impressive title for the top groups, Slayer of the Machine Gods on the other hand is. Even Dread Master/Gate Crasher aren't seen as impressive nowadays :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you sure you play the right utilities and the right rotation?

 

As an example, in your previous post you say that one parse had over 80 % crit. Well, every good carnage parse has over 80 % crit. You can do a good parse with a lower crit rating - e.g. my worse parse has just 75 % because of the bad rotation :)

 

When I use dispatch during the precision window (and yes, you're supposed to use it there) - it hits like a truck, we talking about average crit for almost 75 k. What do you want more? Clashing blast averages for 60k, dispatch for 75k. That's 130k damage delivered in two hits, slightly less outside of the Zen.

 

Also the thing that groups look for most of the time IMO is a universal player. While Carnage is in a good shape, really is, on many bosses the aditional healing from annihilation is simply too good to not be used. It's like saying - I can play fury and nobody wants me - sure, maybe because there are bosses where fury is just bad. And it's not just the additional healing - currently the most operation looked for is R4 HM where the first and the last boss require more AoE focused specs. While you can play carnage there if the group is fine with it, annihilation is the way to go.

 

Also also - nowadays people look for a different Slayer title, Dragonslayer is not an impressive title for the top groups, Slayer of the Machine Gods on the other hand is. Even Dread Master/Gate Crasher aren't seen as impressive nowadays :(

 

Any parse that has a 80% crits is going to be a good parse. That is so for every spec in the game. But, the reality is you're not going to get 80% crits all the time. You don't judge a spec based on the outliers, you do so with the mean.

 

I'm a theory-crafter with Carnage. I do extensive testing. I come up with my own rotations and compare them to what the 'standard' rotations are. I think it would be fair to say that I have mastered the spec after playing it elusively for 8 years. I only play the one character. I was a HM/NiM Progression raider for many years, and ranked PVP.

 

I don't use the standard rotation [although I have of course], the rotations I come up with yield higher DPS than the standard ones. I will always go with the ones that yield the highest DPS.

 

It isn't hard to know the proper utilties to take, they're usually isn't any confusion on that and in most cases, they are simply 'musts'.

 

You are using sentinel terms, but I'm more comfortable with using the marauder terms. - If I'm not mistaken Dispatch would be the sentinel term for Vicious throw, and why on earth anyone would be using that outside of a window is beyond me. Making that point, quite honestly was a bit insulting. [unless of course, you get a freebie proc post execute phase.].

 

If you are telling me you are routinely getting 75k Vicious throws on the regular, unless you are in 340 gear, I'm going to find that ascertain highly questionable.

 

In 330s and in the opener with bloodlust and adrenal, yeah, you can hit that. Outside of that, If all the stars align, and you got the proper procs [implant and Relics] you might hit 70k once in a blue moon. The averages however are in the 50 and 60k range.

 

Post execute phase, if you have used Vicious Throw in your berserk window and with guaranteed crit from your implant, in your following non-berserk ferocity window, your Viscous Throw is in the 30k range. If you are lucky and get a normal crit in that non-berserk ferocity window, you're looking at the 40k range [47-48k]. Gore has pitiful damage for a burst spec - you miss with the offhand. which will happen a good amount of the time, you're looking at the 30k range. When both sabers hit with Gore your still in the 40k range.

 

With regard to Devistating blast, you average in the 50 k range [54- 57], but with a proc, you can hit in the 60k range.

 

A lot of this is dictated by your relic procs. Now if you can align your rotation as such that your ferocity window is timed with your relic procs those higher numbers can be more consistent [higher numbers referring to those I have sited], but that than comes at the cost of not using your frenzy in order to gain more Berserk ferocity windows. Using your Frenzy to gain those extra Berserk windows will certainly take you out of that alignment with your relic procs as they tend to be fairly consistent in their timing. In real fights, however, making such alignments and keeping them consistent is very unrealistic for any appreciable amount of time as there are always going to be interruptions due to mechanics, movement, and CC effects.

 

Obviously, gaining the extra Berserk ferocity windows is desirable.

 

 

With regard to the titles, I sited that only with regard to the fact that it demonstrates experience in NiM raiding. I have other NiM titles, I simply use that one because out of those titles that is the one I like the best. People will check your achievements to see how much experience you have in HM/NiM operations.

 

Even using your numbers, there are many specs quite capable of doing quite abit more. - Certainly, there are certain fights that different specs will be better for. So for example fights with lots of add waves, clearly AOE specs will perform better. I'm speaking more generally.

 

Generally speaking, damage wise, anything Carnage can do, Fury will do notably better. [but again, there are specific fights where an exception exists]. Carnage cannot drop the kind of bombs that Fury, Rage, and AP can. I've seen [and I'm sure you have as well] Fury and Rage hitting 90k even 100k.

 

I won't speak for R4 as I don't have the experience to comment on that.

 

It's great that you are willing to change your spec as the mood suits and you know all three specs well, and certainly I can see how that would be a desirable for a raid team, no question about it. While I do know the other specs, my experience, skill, and interest in them is far less.

 

I know most people play multiple characters, different classes, and I am unusual in the fact that I don't. I only play Carnage. But, at the same time, I do think that should speak to my experience, understanding and skill at playing Carnage. When you only focus on one thing to the exclusion of all others, you tend to adept at the basket you've placed all your eggs in. After 8 years of playing Carnage, I think I've got the rotation down pretty good and have a proper understanding of the spec.

 

You are entitled to your opinions, there's no question about that, but with regard to your opinion that Carnage is 'in good shape'', that is not an opinion I would agree with and I don't know too many people that think that Carnage is 'in good shape.' I love Carnage and nothing with make me happier than if it was 'in good shape', but I don't think it is where it should be as a pure DPS spec, especially when compared to other specs with off role-abilities, heals, greater range options, and kits.

 

Don't take anything I've said as an attack on you, or your abilties. We simply have a different view on the state of Carnage.

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I use the theorycrafters rotation and utilities and every my parse with proper rotation has over 80 % crit because that's how it works. You simply stack the crit chance over the top. If you take different utilities and different rotation, then yes, your parse will have lower crit chance. You do you. Enjoy your theorycrafting, I enjoy optimized rotation and utilities and my 80 % crit chance, maybe you will eventually find a better wait =)

 

Edit> you cannot outparse carnage with fury on Revan HM. Just a funny example :D

Edited by Deaconik
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I use the theorycrafters rotation and utilities and every my parse with proper rotation has over 80 % crit because that's how it works. You simply stack the crit chance over the top. If you take different utilities and different rotation, then yes, your parse will have lower crit chance. You do you. Enjoy your theorycrafting, I enjoy optimized rotation and utilities and my 80 % crit chance, maybe you will eventually find a better wait =)

 

Edit> you cannot outparse carnage with fury on Revan HM. Just a funny example :D

 

Well, having tested the rotation you sited, I find the rotation that I've come up with yields better results consistently. So, I'm not going to use a rotation that yields less DPS. If you want to chalk that up to playstyle, that's fine.

 

As far as utilties, I use: [specfic fights might warrant a slight change, this is just generally speaking]

Brazzen

Undying Rage/Mad Dash

Cloak of Retrubution

Steal Self

Swiftness

Frenzied Blade

Predation

Berserk Gore

 

I checked on Parsley, There are no Carnage parses for Revan HM. Also checking the other fights/Operations [HM/NiM], Annihilation and Fury by and large come ahead of Carnage.

 

The fastest TTK in the game on the DPS Leaderboards belongs to Fury. As far as Marauder specs on on said page we have - Fury, Fury, Annihilation, Annihilation, Annihilation, than Carnage.

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

This is more for anyone uninformed coming in here confused about the 80% crit rate as Carnage/Combat.

OF COURSE THE CRIT RATE IS GOING TO BE EXCESSIVELY HIGH ON EVERY PARSE

Swiftness gives +25% crit rate (5 stacks of 5% each time you crit).

One primary damage source is an autocrit.  DB for Marauders, I think Clashing Blast for Sentinels?

You can get a flat +20% crit rate for the filler ability via talents.

Shard of Mortis is listed as the go to tactical.  Filler now gives +25% crit rate stacking up to 3 times.

With 5 stacks of Swiftness, even in bad gear, you're looking at a 40-45% crit rate and Shard push that up to 65/90/115.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...