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7.1 Balance Changes and Plan


ChrisDurel

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The first thing I said was that I like the changes. I think they're a step in the right direction. I linked the video so that the devs would have an accurate picture of what a Merc that's played by someone who doesn't suck looks like. Then they could adjust accordingly.

 

I think you may have misunderstood my intent. I want them to balance the game, just don't go stupid in either direction.

 

It's not an accurate demonstration of a class if you link someone who's a competent player stomping bad players and who can do that on any class he's on.

 

I'm not going to make claims on merc pvp performance but when I posted links for the poor class balance there were tens of thousands of PVE fights in the data and that data showed large disparities at every skill level.

 

There is nothing close to that for public PVP data.

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It's not an accurate demonstration of a class if you link someone who's a competent player stomping bad players and who can do that on any class he's on.

 

I'm not going to make claims on merc pvp performance but when I posted links for the poor class balance there were tens of thousands of PVE fights in the data and that data showed large disparities at every skill level.

 

There is nothing close to that for public PVP data.

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree. There absolutely is value in the feedback of talented players on the current state of classes. If Bioware is going to balance PvP they shouldn't be balancing it to the lowest common denominator.

 

The existence of a PvE data set is not grounds to disregard the effect that balance changes will have on an entire game mode (PvP). The PvE data set is a metric, but it isn't the only one. Hence the importance of a methodical approach to balance.

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PvE metrics might exist, but they certainly don't look at it correctly. They probably saw many raids use marauders and this is why they nerfed it, not knowing marauders are NEEDED to kill bosses like Apex in NiM. Imagine nerfing classes like marauder so they, instead of TWO teams, can have 0 groups kill apex. Why in the world would you play marauder > PT now? The removal of AOE-DR is essentially a buff for PTs and completely the wrong direction. Buff classes instead of nerfing them. Even the Merc buffs might aswell not be there at all, 16% increase? Holy just add another 0 and make it 160% then it would do idk 29k DPS still ~4k under highest damage spec... Lower heat on merc? Nice now it's easier to do no damage, what a great buff - why even put effort into an arsenal aoe tactial? You want to AOE? Spec IO!

 

Imagine making content harder that only two teams killed and maybe 4 teams could. Sure balancing around these 16 people is stupid, but marauder havikg no AOE dr doesn't matter to a solo player, it only screws over the patchwork teams that struggle to raid anyway because everybody quit - because of decisions just like this. We never needed more content, we just need the classes to be playable and bosses to be killable - then and only then do we need more content. Sure we want new content all the time, but we don't need it.

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I suggest a 15% DR for Hatred every crit your DoTs do, 5% Stacking 3 times, like Madness, also adding Death Brand instead of the armor pen death field. The 15% DR should be added to Hungering Force choice, it is balanced as you would be choosing 5% Crit boost/ 15% DR vs Maliciousness 20% Damage boost. Give Hatred some love, make it more viable in PVP
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We're going to have to agree to disagree. There absolutely is value in the feedback of talented players on the current state of classes. If Bioware is going to balance PvP they shouldn't be balancing it to the lowest common denominator.

 

The existence of a PvE data set is not grounds to disregard the effect that balance changes will have on an entire game mode (PvP). The PvE data set is a metric, but it isn't the only one. Hence the importance of a methodical approach to balance.

 

The feedback you just gave was a talented player stomping incredibly bad players. That wasn't the class, that was a display of a massive skill gap. Maybe you can describe what value was in what you linked because the guy clearly says he's beating on bad players, he can't be bottom of the ladder even on a weak class because bad players exist and he'd be doing better on his marauder.

 

You seem to be serious in thinking that's showing off the power of arsenal in pvp?

Edited by Gyronamics
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That's a melee tactical for mercenary :confused:

 

When the base classes got deleted all the melee attacks got deleted from mercenary and all the 30m attacks (besides default attacks and special abilities) were deleted from powertech.

 

So why does the replacement for Thermonuclear Fusion (a 30m range combo with a 16m AOE) require the mercenary to run into melee range to perform a 16m aoe centred on their character?

 

People have been begging for new classes over the years, I guess this is it: melee merc from now on. :rak_01:

 

 

7.0 made AOE threat and mobility for Immortal worse, where are fixes for that? Mad Dash should be baseline, not a choice against Saber Reflect. Telling my guarded DPS to go stand in stuff so I can get a speed boost is insanity.

 

Making Force Scream into an AOE isn't a great choice either since the chances it actually hits more than one target due to its super tiny cone is very low. The cone needs to be massively widened or the damage has to chain between targets.

 

Mad Dash, Saber Reflect and Intimidating Roar should ALL be baseline, not optional. They're all needed to deal with the orbs in Brontes. And yes, jugg tanks need mobility. PT and sin tanks have speed buffs, juggernauts need it too.

 

 

--

 

After cutting out arsenal mercs from end game PVE my main ranged class has been virulence. It doesn't need a nerf. :confused:

 

Some bosses require some ranged dps in the group. If none of them are even remotely comparable to melee classes, you need to change the ops so that ranged classes are not needed for the mechanics anymore.

Or just take the easy option: stop nerfing ranged classes!

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Augments having no effect in PVP is extremely fair between players even if not intended.

 

Your augments aren't doing anything. Neither are anyone elses. Who is suffering?

 

On the other hand, large disparity in performance between specs exists with or without augments so clearly this changes matters for the better if addressed.

 

I agree 100%

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Innovative Ordnance Mercenaries will received a new Tactical to replace Magnetized Shrapnel

  • Magnetic Resonance - Exploding Thermal Detonator / Assault Plastique early with Mag Shot / Mag Bolt causes your next Power Shot / Charged Bolts to deal additional Elemental damage.

 

This sounds awful when comparing it to the tactical we lost.

 

Uninventive and why would you create a tactical that doesn't work with all potential skill tree choices?

 

"Impact Explosives" - Thermal detonator mod

"Thermal detonator deals 50% more kinetic damage but no longer deals elemental damage and mag shot/ power shot cannot detonate it early.

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Just too little too late. This is all you can come up with after months of 7.0? Like four changes, which, at least for some of the classes, are absolutely minuscule?

 

Not resubbing after next week, no new content, no class balance, terrible scaling. Glhf

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I didn't see the listed changes on the pts. I guess they don't want us to test them. Of course, I'm not surprised, but I do wonder why the devs even bother having a test environment if it can't be used to test the changes that they are planning on making.
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The listed changes will in reality not do anything, as the over the top overpowered classes (Operative, Assassin, Jugg and Mara) will still be way overpowered. Couple that with their multiple stuns, stealth, Knock backs that stun and gap closers that stun, will still give them all the huge advantages they have enjoyed since 7.0 released. Edited by Lord_Malganus
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Augments having no effect in PVP is extremely fair between players even if not intended.

 

Your augments aren't doing anything. Neither are anyone elses. Who is suffering?

 

On the other hand, large disparity in performance between specs exists with or without augments so clearly this changes matters for the better if addressed.

 

I disagree on this because some classes in pvp perform better with low stat budgets than others, and for a number of classes it reduces the potential ways to play the class. For example, classes like AP PT will always do extremely well because they can do massive damage with or without a 1.4gcd. Either build will let them pull higher damage than any other class in a pvp match. On the opposite side, some classes such as IO merc and merc healer need higher alacrity to reach their highest potential. Because of the low stat budget, they will often be forced to just run a 1.4gcd because the loss of the extra crit is too punishing for them. In addition to that, some classes such as carnage and arsenal merc who have the potential to reach a 1.3 gcd, cannot afford to run that build because having low crit is far too punishing.

Edited by Llacertus
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===========

Carnage Post

===========

 

It's nice to see that they tried to increase the burst but the cost is too high, Imo the tactical should work that it increases the massacre cost for the first two hyper stacks then equalizes on 3rd so the cost of massacre is Nothing with 1 refunding due to passive so you can efficiently burst, Also think the 25% Critical Chance per Massacre is far too great for a spec that is already hitting high critical chance (15% *Critical Multiplier* would be better imo to make it hit like a truck as a burst spec should without it being guaranteed).

 

Also gore still losing it's sunder (Armour break) effect when using Driving Gore. Not sure if that's intended.

 

if any of the devs want to get in touch to talk about the class specifically i'd be willing to help although i've quit the game since 7.0 launched.

 

-Will

Played Carnage since 5.0 ( 2x Top 3 Ranked And NiM raider)

Edited by NOFORKNKNIFE
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Those changes are too small to affect anything. Buffs for mercenary (both specs) are not enough to make the real difference.

 

I think that was the intent. for some reason the devs have a problem with the class, and don't want it to be played, and so they just make it suck so bad that people will kick them from group to keep them from doing anything harder than heroic missions.

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After testing carnage out on the pts, I actually like what you're doing with it. Personally I thought carnage in 6.0 was a bit too easy. It looks like your making the spec harder to play but also more rewarding. If your going to go this route, you need to increase its damage by a significant amount for the Shard of Mortis tactical specifically.
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Stuck the feedback on what I tested in the pts section: https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=1006544

 

But like why even care that carnage got buffed, why care that arsenal aoe tactical is ****.

 

Why is nobody talking about all classes losing AOE dr? I hope you people realize what an insane balance decision this is!

 

Oh btw, that is indeed another PT buff, because PTs are the least affected while still having so much aoe damage. So it's a buff for PvP and PvE, ok not a buff - but the least of nerfs.

Edited by ZUHFB
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But like why even care that carnage got buffed, why care that arsenal aoe tactical is ****.

 

Why is nobody talking about all classes losing AOE dr? I hope you people realize what an insane balance decision this is!

 

Oh btw, that is indeed another PT buff, because PTs are the least affected while still having so much aoe damage. So it's a buff for PvP and PvE, ok not a buff - but the least of nerfs.

 

I care about those things and if no one gives feedback in whatever form they can then there's no feedback, it's on PTS for testing so that means its 99% guaranteed to ship exactly like it is but there's a chance.

 

We went from 30% AOE DR minimum on everyone while jugs and snipers had 60% temporarily but in the case of Snipers temporarily can mean 46s in a row.

 

7.1 we will be ranging from 0% AOE DR to 60% AOE DR which I will sort in order of strength in my opinion

 

Sniper - 60% x 20-23s on 45-60s CD (Entrench), resettable by a 3m CD - this didn't actually change

Powertech - 60% x 15s on 35-45s CD (Sonic Missile) AP with 35s CD almost has this up half the time

Juggernaut - 60% x 15s on 45s CD (Threatening Scream)

Assassin - 60% x 15s on 45s CD (Mass Mind Control)

Marauder (Carnage & Annihilation) - 30% for 20s on 300s CD (Inspiration)

Marauder (Fury) - 15% x 6s on technically 30s CD but actually every second Force Crush so 36s?

Operatives - nothing :p

Sorcerer - nothing :)

Mercenary - nothing :D

 

wat :csw_jabbapet:

 

The marauder stuff is terrible design.

Then there's operative, sorc and merc below terrible design with nothing.

Edited by Gyronamics
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I care about those things and if no one gives feedback in whatever form they can then there's no feedback, it's on PTS for testing so that means its 99% guaranteed to ship exactly like it is but there's a chance.

 

We went from 30% AOE DR minimum on everyone while jugs and snipers had 60% temporarily but in the case of Snipers temporarily can mean 46s in a row.

 

7.1 we will be ranging from 0% AOE DR to 60% AOE DR which I will sort in order of strength in my opinion

 

Sniper - 60% x 20-23s on 45-60s CD (Entrench), resettable by a 3m CD - this didn't actually change

Powertech - 60% x 15s on 35-45s CD (Sonic Missile) AP with 35s CD almost has this up half the time

Juggernaut - 60% x 15s on 45s CD (Threatening Scream)

Assassin - 60% x 15s on 45s CD (Mass Mind Control)

Marauder (Carnage & Annihilation) - 30% for 20s on 300s CD (Inspiration)

Marauder (Fury) - 15% x 6s on technically 30s CD but actually every second Force Crush so 36s?

Sorcerer - nothing :)

Mercenary - nothing :D

 

wat :csw_jabbapet:

 

The marauder stuff is terrible design.

Then there's sorc and merc below terrible design with nothing.

 

Nice colors - but how do you think people will kill sisters, or even tyth now. It's already next to impossible to kill sisters, and except for the 70k+ DoT ticks on that fight you get large amounts of AOE damage you already need guardshrouds for. Why are there nerfs at all? Where are buffs?

 

And to the arsenal stuff, how about specing IO if you want to AOE.

 

Instead I read how someone thinks arsenal not having an AOE tactical is a thing of importance at all...

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Nice colors - but how do you think people will kill sisters, or even tyth now. It's already next to impossible to kill sisters, and except for the 70k+ DoT ticks on that fight you get large amounts of AOE damage you already need guardshrouds for. Why are there nerfs at all? Where are buffs?

 

And to the arsenal stuff, how about specing IO if you want to AOE.

 

Instead I read how someone thinks arsenal not having an AOE tactical is a thing of importance at all...

 

You seem unaware that it's possible to have more than one opinion on more than one topic at once.

 

I don't recall asking you for any input on anything, you literally replied to me saying you didn't care about what I was giving feedback on :csw_jabbapet:

 

The AOE DR situation is clearly bad and for most of the classes they deemed worthy of granting ANY AOE DR in 7.0/7.1 the damage taken has become vastly more spiky due to only temporary uptime while fights have not been changed to reflect only temporary AOE DR on players.

 

But you find time to complain that I gave feedback on something else....

Edited by Gyronamics
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