I believe the direction of the game is for a type of players that BW doesn't have

[OlBuzzard]

IMO there is plenty of room in game for just about everyone [** see note] .

** PvE .. solo OR group ( with varying levels of difficulty)

** PvP .. solo (1 v 1) or maybe group only (3 v 3 or larger groups).

 

IMO as a community we need the entire lot. Not just one or the other. At the heart of this matter lies an age-old idea that somehow a game should be designed to suit only one faction or ideology or the other.

 

There have been similar groups that felt that there was only one way to build a product... the Swiss watch was one. It was known for being the best watch made (once upon a time). Things change. How Swiss watches are made has changed (internal components and technology) ... just to keep up with a changing industry.

 

There is something to be said about learning from history: what works and what does not. That applies to this game just as much as anything.

 

[**note] : It is impossible to please everyone!

Edited April 8, 2022 by OlBuzzard

[ZUHFB]

Copium. The survey wasn't broken and had massive sample size.

 

Solo/Story players were more than 10 times larger than raiders.

 

Ahh okay, so how many people answered that poll? Because if you look at how many chatacters played ranked you are looking at ~13000 Characters who queued for ranked. With about lets say 5 toons per person and some being there because ? you get so lets say 1.5k people who played ranked. Think again if polls on forums where there are only people around who don't socialize, its pretty clear by posts who are like "I don't understand gearing", it is a question you ask on fleet or guild chat, but you don't have that.

 

You just wouldn't have all the posts aboit gear or basic questions if people would join guilds and there are so many really good guilds for new people, it is insane to me how you play solo.... would be so boring.

 

So no polls on a forum or reddit don't mean anything, its like posting it in pve-related on theorycrafters discord and saying more people do pve than story. Even steam charts aren't accurate because all the older players who played for more than 2 years use the usual launcher - or at least all I know about.

[GryphonSatyr]

Even steam charts aren't accurate because all the older players who played for more than 2 years use the usual launcher - or at least all I know about.

 

Some of us older players reinstalled with Steam because the original patcher sucks.

[ZUHFB]

Some of us older players reinstalled with Steam because the original patcher sucks.

 

Yes I am aware... but not all players are doing this.

 

Also I find it very... weird? that somehow the PvE community is at fault for some of you not being able to get gear. Nobody asked for this in the PvE community, literally nobody. I like the gearing system, not because I can be 330 and that would somehow make me an unbeatable god in h2s in comparison to 324 or 326, but because it takes me longer than 9h to get max gear!!! 6.0 gearing was so easy and stupid that not having it was harder than having it, you could be max gear in a day without any problems. 6.0 gearing was boring and meaningless, if you don't consider gearing up in an MMORPG content which it very much so is, then you also lose the right to complain about it! It is not content after all its no content so why even do it?

 

I don't understand this! The gearing system is so far away from favoring Ops players, and somehow you still have the audacity to blame you not having gear on US?! You cannot gear to 326 with ops, it takes so so so much longer then PvP, GSF, or yes conquest gear too! Just because "a small fraction of elitist players" can get to 330, which also is just not true I see people who do 13k dps in 330 but w/e.

 

Yeah you are right, story is the reason 95% of the players subbed. Group content is why they stay, endgame is why they stay. Also look at the past: 3.0 made OPs easy for everyone and everyone disliked it because killing Denova with 2 players just isn't fun. Then 4.0 came along, for a large majority the worst expansion, with 0 OPs and only story and everyone hated it again!

 

At this point Bioware cannot make anything that players consider good! Loadouts? I hate them because when I do very specific things on 1 class sometimes I lose an ability which I regain in 9 Levels anyway, which you could probably buy from class trainer again to begin with.... Yea the 6.0 story was short and no content besides gear (which I consider content just like any MMORPG player would) they opened up the future to the game, they could add new classes now - yes without new story, and they should do that!

 

Please please please complain about real issues, PvP bolster, weapon designer, mercs and carnage being so far being all other specs its just kinda sad seeing any class below them in starparse. Blaming you not having gear OR not being able to get gear is just straight up not the PvE communities fault - harder content should rewards higher gear. Every MMORPG works like this, every - single - one. And its not like Nefra is hard content to begin with... Everyone can get 330 gear, you are just too lazy to do it.

[cjmarsh]

Nobody is saying PvE players are at fault for something Bioware did. Also, I'm not sure it follows that having 330 gear available to solo and PvP players means that the gearing process would be shorter. In fact, if top tier gear was accessible to all playstyles (crafting in GW2 anyone?) then it would hopefully take longer for people running easier content to get the gear.

 

It seems the real issue is that harder difficulty content should be more rewarding and Bioware, much like many other MMO developers, gate the best gear behind the hardest content since scarcity breeds value. Any move to make top tier gear available to other playstyles is effectively taking away from the value of the rewards that NiM ops players receive. On the flip side, for players that don't like ops it doesn't feel good for them to know they will never get the best gear no matter how much effort they put in. These players often don't need the highest tier gear to play the content they enjoy but still very much want it anyways, its only human.

 

It's not an easy task balancing ops rewards and making all players feel like they can progress in the endgame. I'm not sure if there is a good solution with an easy fix. Perhaps making a subset of gear that only works in ops and only drops in ops, for example a special type of mod, would help give ops players suitable rewards and still make the base gear accessible to all.

[AdjeYo]

It seems the real issue is that harder difficulty content should be more rewarding and Bioware, much like many other MMO developers, gate the best gear behind the hardest content since scarcity breeds value. Any move to make top tier gear available to other playstyles is effectively taking away from the value of the rewards that NiM ops players receive. On the flip side, for players that don't like ops it doesn't feel good for them to know they will never get the best gear no matter how much effort they put in. These players often don't need the highest tier gear to play the content they enjoy but still very much want it anyways, its only human.

 

I don't think it's so much the exclusivity of it, but more wanting to keep progressing your gear while doing the content you like doing. If you look at the 6.0 system for instance, trying to gear through nim ops was just shooting yourself in the foot. You could do it so much faster and easier by just running some mm flashpoints. That means by the time I start doing the content I really want to do, my gear progression is over.

 

In that regard, the current system does much better, providing everyone with a gear upgrade path. I'd make the differences between tiers much smaller (starting by making all 326 gear having the same stat distribution, regardless if you get it from ops, pvp, gsf or solo play).

 

I understand the idea of not being able to attain the highest number gear rating isn't very fun, especially just after the change. But I think if they improve stat allocation, and fix bolster so people aren't suddenly having to slog through content they could breeze through before, most people would come around to the system pretty quickly.

Edited April 8, 2022 by AdjeYo

[Ghostius]

I don't think it's so much the exclusivity of it, but more wanting to keep progressing your gear while doing the content you like doing. If you look at the 6.0 system for instance, trying to gear through nim ops was just shooting yourself in the foot. You could do it so much faster and easier by just running some mm flashpoints. That means by the time I start doing the content I really want to do, my gear progression is over.

 

In that regard, the current system does much better, providing everyone with a gear upgrade path. I'd make the differences between tiers much smaller (starting by making all 326 gear having the same stat distribution, regardless if you get it from ops, pvp, gsf or solo play).

 

I understand the idea of not being able to attain the highest number gear rating isn't very fun, especially just after the change. But I think if they improve stat allocation, and fix bolster so people aren't suddenly having to slog through content they could breeze through before, most people would come around to the system pretty quickly.

 

I do understand people coming from 6.0 are used to that gearing system, people mostly dont go well with changes.

I also understand “more effort, better gear” crowd, they have their logic which is fine and goes with mosst mmos gearing logic.

Hard to judge, but personally, I reached 326 irating and Im fine with that, I dont feel like I need better gear, there is just no content that requires it.

Coming from classic wow, gear and minmaxing is much more here in swtor.

In swtor, there can an issuse with boss kill if raid dont have enoigh dps, so raid can actually fail and wipe.

In classic wow, players actually know for sure they will kill all bosses in 1-2 hours((yes, minmaxing made it so easy), so they actually invented speedrunning raids, where they compete who will clear raids faster.

[cjmarsh]

I don't think it's so much the exclusivity of it, but more wanting to keep progressing your gear while doing the content you like doing. If you look at the 6.0 system for instance, trying to gear through nim ops was just shooting yourself in the foot. You could do it so much faster and easier by just running some mm flashpoints. That means by the time I start doing the content I really want to do, my gear progression is over.

 

In that regard, the current system does much better, providing everyone with a gear upgrade path. I'd make the differences between tiers much smaller (starting by making all 326 gear having the same stat distribution, regardless if you get it from ops, pvp, gsf or solo play).

 

I understand the idea of not being able to attain the highest number gear rating isn't very fun, especially just after the change. But I think if they improve stat allocation, and fix bolster so people aren't suddenly having to slog through content they could breeze through before, most people would come around to the system pretty quickly.

 

It's a good point that the separate ops gear is essentially ensuring that there is gear progression for people doing harder ops. Gearing up to 326 before starting to do harder ops is normal since the difference in effectiveness is significant. I can see how having the extra gear steps is good for ops progression when people are starting at 326.

 

But while the current system provides an upgrade path for all players they are not equal ones. Solo players, and people who don't want to run ops, will never get 330 gear no matter how much they play the game. I get that solo content is easier and that harder content should be rewarded but people who put in a bunch of effort doing what they enjoy in the game should also be rewarded. For them I imagine it doesn't feel very rewarding when the best they can get is some 326 green gear despite playing many more hours than the progressive raiders who log on for an op three times a week.

 

Unfortunately, I don't really have a solution or alternative that doesn't upset one side or another. I'm just concerned that this gearing system creates friction between the hardcore crowd and the casual crowd. And that always seems to be a recipe for toxicity in a gaming community.

[ZUHFB]

It's a good point that the separate ops gear is essentially ensuring that there is gear progression for people doing harder ops. Gearing up to 326 before starting to do harder ops is normal since the difference in effectiveness is significant. I can see how having the extra gear steps is good for ops progression when people are starting at 326.

 

But while the current system provides an upgrade path for all players they are not equal ones. Solo players, and people who don't want to run ops, will never get 330 gear no matter how much they play the game. I get that solo content is easier and that harder content should be rewarded but people who put in a bunch of effort doing what they enjoy in the game should also be rewarded. For them I imagine it doesn't feel very rewarding when the best they can get is some 326 green gear despite playing many more hours than the progressive raiders who log on for an op three times a week.

 

Unfortunately, I don't really have a solution or alternative that doesn't upset one side or another. I'm just concerned that this gearing system creates friction between the hardcore crowd and the casual crowd. And that always seems to be a recipe for toxicity in a gaming community.

 

If we could vote a president for the forum you'd have my vote. I don't know what they would have to change for all people to be happy. If they increase the conquest mats needed for 330 gear the posts will just be "OPs players have it so much easier, they need 0.25 the mats we do!". 6.0 just wasn't a gearing system it was... easy, boring and mind numbing - I personally like this one way more, I don't personally get the big deal with being 330 instead of 326.

 

I get that you want to do higher numbers, but honestly... 85% of players could have more significant dps increases by talking / raiding with people who have more experience. Or by simply Keybinding

[kirorx]

I do understand people coming from 6.0 are used to that gearing system, people mostly dont go well with changes.

I also understand “more effort, better gear” crowd, they have their logic which is fine and goes with mosst mmos gearing logic.

Hard to judge, but personally, I reached 326 irating and Im fine with that, I dont feel like I need better gear, there is just no content that requires it.

Coming from classic wow, gear and minmaxing is much more here in swtor.

In swtor, there can an issuse with boss kill if raid dont have enoigh dps, so raid can actually fail and wipe.

In classic wow, players actually know for sure they will kill all bosses in 1-2 hours((yes, minmaxing made it so easy), so they actually invented speedrunning raids, where they compete who will clear raids faster.

 

Fair, but if you decide to take your 326 gear right now and do a SM operation, you will get no gear. You get lesser rated gear than you are wearing now.

 

If bioware wants to have the NiM stuff drop the highest tier, so be it; but when rating system is walled in the other direction, it makes me feel like im wasting my time doing any other content.

 

I didnt mind muscling through umbaraa with newer players in 6.0 because at the end i could still get some armor for my alts or whatever, but now; why waste my time doing content that drops lesser gear.

 

If someone is casual and plays for fun, they could get 326 and out gear SM ops and vet flashpoints completely

 

This, to me; is problematic

[Damask_Rose]

Nobody is saying PvE players are at fault for something Bioware did.

 

That is because the vast majority of people know that all content that isn't pvp is pve and don't try to use the term pve when they mean raiders. So no, no one is blaming solo and small group players for the current gearing system, but the raiders who constantly whined about non-raiders having access to good gear and who were too weak to resist HS farming might well bear at least some of the blame.

[cjmarsh]

That is because the vast majority of people know that all content that isn't pvp is pve and don't try to use the term pve when they mean raiders. So no, no one is blaming solo and small group players for the current gearing system, but the raiders who constantly whined about non-raiders having access to good gear and who were too weak to resist HS farming might well bear at least some of the blame.

 

I'm not sure how much whining went on but as someone who left the game after farming hammer station one too many times I understand where you're coming from. Not sure what it has to do with being weak but, like many others, I'm interested in the loot and getting as much of it as possible. When there's a path of least resistance, a source of easy loot, I'll be drawn to it like a moth to flame because the reward is worth it to me. I enjoy the optimization and being as efficient and effective as I can. It's gotten me hooked on GSF this time around so having unbalanced rewards can be a useful technique to keep queue times down, for example.

 

However, the issue the game has now with this latest gearing system is that the rewards are too unbalanced. Even the people running ops don't really seem interested in playing other game modes after getting their initial 326 gear. There is very little pull for them to queue for something like a master mode flashpoint because the rewards they receive are little better than vendor trash to them. I'm in a progressive raiding guild and virtually everyone in it logs on for an hour or two to do an op then immediately logs off.

 

The point is, the new system doesn't work for most types of players and the rewards aren't balanced enough to encourage people to play whatever content they feel like playing. Whether you like raiding or not, a balanced reward system is good for the whole game.

[Gokkus]

I feel threads about the gearing system will keep running in circles because:

 

1. Raider seem not to understand why non-raiders want max gear

2. Non-raiders seem not to understand why raiders do not want them to have max gear

 

I feel everyone should have acces to max gear. But that does not have to be at the same pace. If it is important that NM ops give something exclusive, then by all means make it either cosmetic or gold augments or something.

 

This way everyone can play how they want and keep getting rewarded for it. Grudgingly doing content because it is the only way to feel you are progressing isnt great. Just ask GSF players.

[AdjeYo]

I feel threads about the gearing system will keep running in circles because:

 

1. Raider seem not to understand why non-raiders want max gear

2. Non-raiders seem not to understand why raiders do not want them to have max gear

 

I feel everyone should have acces to max gear. But that does not have to be at the same pace. If it is important that NM ops give something exclusive, then by all means make it either cosmetic or gold augments or something.

 

This way everyone can play how they want and keep getting rewarded for it. Grudgingly doing content because it is the only way to feel you are progressing isnt great. Just ask GSF players.

 

I don't really see how such a system would be much different than what we have now in practice. The difference between upgrading from 326 to 330 is pretty similar as upgrading purple to gold augs.

 

So if you restrict gold augs to nim ops and let everyone gear up to 330, you basically end up with a very comparable gear difference between raiders and nonraiders. Is it really the ilvl of the gear that matters so much?

[illgot]

I don't think it's so much the exclusivity of it, but more wanting to keep progressing your gear while doing the content you like doing. If you look at the 6.0 system for instance, trying to gear through nim ops was just shooting yourself in the foot. You could do it so much faster and easier by just running some mm flashpoints. That means by the time I start doing the content I really want to do, my gear progression is over.

 

In that regard, the current system does much better, providing everyone with a gear upgrade path. I'd make the differences between tiers much smaller (starting by making all 326 gear having the same stat distribution, regardless if you get it from ops, pvp, gsf or solo play).

 

I understand the idea of not being able to attain the highest number gear rating isn't very fun, especially just after the change. But I think if they improve stat allocation, and fix bolster so people aren't suddenly having to slog through content they could breeze through before, most people would come around to the system pretty quickly.

 

Getting to 306 took me one night and cost me less than 100 million credits.

 

It then took me over 18 months to refine the mods enough to get a full set and a half of perfect stats. That is one full set for one class. The 451 crit mods were nearly impossible for me to find and I played way too much.

 

Gearing in 6.0 was subtle and allowed you to precisely tune your gear for your exact build.

 

Sure, if the goal was just hitting 306 and buying your set from the vender it took no time at all to gear up.

 

But if you wanted the best stats for your class it could easily take you a year.

 

With 7.0 it has taken less 7 weeks for people to hit full 330 and there is no perfecting the stats like 6.0.

 

6.0 = do anything and hit 306 quickly then take a over a year to find the perfect mods for your build.

 

7.0 = gear level restricted based on content; run Dash and Nefra until you hit 330. Done in less than 2 months.

Edited April 9, 2022 by illgot

[Sareeph]

But while the current system provides an upgrade path for all players they are not equal ones. Solo players, and people who don't want to run ops, will never get 330 gear no matter how much they play the game.

 

Not exactly true. The plan according to the dev's is to raise the gear level as "The year of fun" progresses. When 7.1 is released then the caps for each type of content will rise accordingly. A proper statement would be to say Solo and those who do not wish to run nim op's will never have bis for the current cycle.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Sareeph

[AdjeYo]

Getting to 306 took me one night and cost me less than 100 million credits.

 

It then took me over 18 months to refine the mods enough to get a full set and a half of perfect stats. That is one full set for one class. The 451 crit mods were nearly impossible for me to find and I played way too much.

 

Gearing in 6.0 was subtle and allowed you to precisely tune your gear for your exact build.

 

Sure, if the goal was just hitting 306 and buying your set from the vender it took no time at all to gear up.

 

But if you wanted the best stats for your class it could easily take you a year.

 

With 7.0 it has taken less 7 weeks for people to hit full 330 and there is no perfecting the stats like 6.0.

 

6.0 = do anything and hit 306 quickly then take a over a year to find the perfect mods for your build.

 

7.0 = gear level restricted based on content; run Dash and Nefra until you hit 330. Done in less than 2 months.

 

Yeah digging through inventories filled with loot to maybe find that one specific out of 20 R-variants of the 3 different variants of one of the 3 teriary stats wasn't exactly fun for me. I'm all for min maxing, and I'd love to have mods back for all tiers of gear, but please never again the 20 different variants of the same mods with minor stat variants.

[OlBuzzard]

Getting to 306 took me one night and cost me less than 100 million credits.

 

It then took me over 18 months to refine the mods enough to get a full set and a half of perfect stats. That is one full set for one class. The 451 crit mods were nearly impossible for me to find and I played way too much.

 

Gearing in 6.0 was subtle and allowed you to precisely tune your gear for your exact build.

 

Sure, if the goal was just hitting 306 and buying your set from the vender it took no time at all to gear up.

 

But if you wanted the best stats for your class it could easily take you a year.

 

With 7.0 it has taken less 7 weeks for people to hit full 330 and there is no perfecting the stats like 6.0.

 

6.0 = do anything and hit 306 quickly then take a over a year to find the perfect mods for your build.

 

7.0 = gear level restricted based on content; run Dash and Nefra until you hit 330. Done in less than 2 months.

 

I like the way you said this. I still have a full "page" of inventory of 306 "gear" PLUS another of MODS to go inside of that gear. (Yes, I know ... it's probably useless now and I'll have to deconstruct it.) BUT I used those resources to mix and match various specs together until I found a good combination that worked for me personally.

 

As you so well pointed out this took time (not over night). I also agree that we really don't (seemingly) have the flexibility to "perfect" what stats we get.

 

[/scratches head] ... I'm guessing that there really is a message there somewhere! And (as usual) the old man lacks the skilled technobabble to make a proper presentation.

 

While I'm thinking of it there's a couple other things that I might throw out (senior moment again .. let me see what those were )

 

Ummm ..

OH! Yeah !!

** Tech frags: where do we buy gear with those frags. Not at the "station" ??? (Carrick) ... There's got to be a better way (or more common place) to find what we need ONCE we have "earned" those frags. Heck .. that's one way to help make things "progressive". Earn the stuff to buy gear with! (well maybe).

 

** Different strokes for different folks. Not everyone plays solo. Some prefer to run in groups. a LOT of players DO have good guilds that they are fond of. (Nothing wrong with that). Some players really are REALLY good at games! And I mean REALLY GOOD.

 

I realized just HOW good watching a demonstration in RL at a local Best Buy store. By the time this person finished the demonstration there was a small audience watching. (He was THAT good). At that point in time I had played by first on line game for (IIRC) about 6 years. I realized just how adapt people can be to video games. Afterwards the person walked away quietly.. (only smiling kindly to those watching). Even though not one word was spoken between us I realized just exactly what was taking place!

 

Soooo .. yeah .. there really are those kind of players out there. So why shouldn't they be able to be challenged as well? Even though folks like that take a LOT more to be impressed with "content" that some of the rest of us ... their world of "fun" is on a totally different level than mine.

 

** Not for one group or the other?? By that I mean: why should we have to choose one group or style over the other? Resources? Only so many dollars available? Perhaps ... perhaps not!

 

Somewhere down the road I'm looking for that 3rd option. That option provides fun for those who are only interested in the story .. BUT for a LOT of players who are just really THAT good. And maybe that happy median where it "can be" a challenge from time to time ... but a lot of fun too.

 

So what kind of players are the developers suppose to design the game for?

[bluehufsa]

Not exactly true. The plan according to the dev's is to raise the gear level as "The year of fun" progresses. When 7.1 is released then the caps for each type of content will rise accordingly. A proper statement would be to say Solo and those who do not wish to run nim op's will never have bis for the current cycle.

 

Have you considered running for Congress?

[Rammboo]

Not exactly true. The plan according to the dev's is to raise the gear level as "The year of fun" progresses. When 7.1 is released then the caps for each type of content will rise accordingly. A proper statement would be to say Solo and those who do not wish to run nim op's will never have bis for the current cycle.

 

I solo.

Not been fun so far.

Think they missed there.

[kirorx]

Just the hamster wheel, to keep your mind off the lack of new content

[Pricia]

Soooo .. yeah .. there really are those kind of players out there. So why shouldn't they be able to be challenged as well? Even though folks like that take a LOT more to be impressed with "content" that some of the rest of us ... their world of "fun" is on a totally different level than mine.

 

 

I read your whole post and scratched my head a little bit there.

 

I don't remember anyone saying that there shouldn't be hard ops for people who enjoy them.

 

I think you've missed the point of the thread entirely.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Pricia

[Sareeph]

Not exactly true. The plan according to the dev's is to raise the gear level as "The year of fun" progresses. When 7.1 is released then the caps for each type of content will rise accordingly. A proper statement would be to say Solo and those who do not wish to run nim op's will never have bis for the current cycle.

 

Have you considered running for Congress?

 

No idea what you are trying to say here.

[Sareeph]

Not exactly true. The plan according to the dev's is to raise the gear level as "The year of fun" progresses. When 7.1 is released then the caps for each type of content will rise accordingly. A proper statement would be to say Solo and those who do not wish to run nim op's will never have bis for the current cycle.

 

I solo.

Not been fun so far.

Think they missed there.

 

Yes. I have considered this the year of fixing bugs/short sightedness. I have not even bothered to try and finish the new bit of story. I barely was able to advance to it because I had the bug previous to 7.0 where the temp bar did not populate when fighting Valkorian and so could not interrupt his heal. None of my toons had finished Echoes of Oblivion due to that bug and I will not attempt to finish the new story until they fix it. I almost quit the game because I was furious that I could not even complete the content because of a failure on their part and slow reaction to try and fix it.