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Is Crafting the Missing link in all the changes?


supercometl

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So a lot of the 7.0 changes around gearing are problematic to say the least. The devs clearly think gearing is the reason people play, and part of that might stem from the feedback from 5.0/5.10/6.0. I will mainly talk around PvE, though some of the ideas do play into PvP.

 

So this leads to the question around why the gearing system is what it is. The devs want to lock gear behind harder content, effectively bring back the progression from HM FPs/SM Ops->HM Ops->Nim Ops. Which isn't all bad. The way alt. gearing is looking to work in effect though is you gear your alts. based on your most easily repeatable cleared content, which for most players will be HM FPs/HM Ops.

 

So here is a statement that won't go over well, the changes to gearing will not be hurting the vast majority of casual PvE players. It will hurt solo only, NiM raiders, and PvPers way more. If your hardest content you do is hardmode flashpoints, Uprisings, and legacy hardmode operations your "best achievable gear" is going to be very easy to farm across characters once you reach "max item rating" for that piece of content.

 

So with that out of the way, lets get back to the topic idea. Crafting. Crafting is in a terrible place. It has been for a long time, and 6.0 crafting really killed almost any enjoyment for crafting outside of biochem and augments. Crafting gear, including non-augment mods, is atrocious with it's level of grind. However, what if reverse engineering came back? What if you could reverse engineer that NiM drop and be able to craft another piece that was virtually the same. What if you could reverse engineer that PvP gear so you could gear up your alternate classes with similar gear. How about when you need two assassin tank helmets because you need your PT to not be drowning in absorb it doesn't need, but your sin still needs one. Reverse engineer it and craft two.

 

This also could be a way to not have grind-able modifiable gear from drops, but still allow for the lower tier of itemization to have modifiable gear. As the devs clearly think that modifiable gear in this system would be horrific. Reverse engineer the gear and the "similar but not the same" gear is made up of armorings/mods/enhancements. This in effect "hides" the complexity of the gearing system away from the casual players, but the players that want to dig into their gear can still do that. Of course they don't "need to". The amount of content in the game that "requires" min max is basically PvP and sales runs of hatred with more than one sandbag. Everything else is just a matter of skill deficiency, which gearing past skill requirements is what got us to the point where we are now, where hard mode operations feel like story mode, and the only way to "test" NiM competency is bringing someone along to EC first boss.

 

Add to this make the crafted gear tradable, so if a player really want to have the "best gear" *cough* useless gold augs *cough* They can save up and buy it from a crafter that did said NiM content/grinded through PvP before them.

 

The thing is, the cost to entry for crafting should be having the gear itself, not an abnormally high time investment in crafting itself. Crafting up a ladder of bonded attachments is a horrible process. even if you have all the materials you need, the time it takes to craft it is absurd and takes way to much input from the player. You want it to take 2 hours to make a chest piece, just make the crafting time 2 hours.

 

TL;DR

 

Make crafting a thing again as a way to supplement the current gearing system, and not be slower, more expensive, and more effort required than just farming duplicates on nefra/MM FPS

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Yeah I wouldn't get my hopes up.

 

My guess is that they have no idea what to do with crafting. They mentioned that we "might" get more augments later, but unless they make the kits cheaper to make, it's still a huge waste of money if you have to augment every piece of gear before trading it up... then have to get a new kit...

 

I wish we could craft those upgrade currencies and trade them. Or craft a whole different tier of gear. SOMETHING to make it worth it to spend hours doing it.

 

Coming 7.0 the only crafting I'm going to do is dark projects etc for GS2....

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I don't like having crafting tied to the content a player plays. I prefer having crafting being independent like it is in many other games. Crafters should be able to craft BiS gear, but they shouldn't have to be NiM raiders in order to do so. I don't think SWtOR ever got crafting right, and they just keep making it worse.
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Coming 7.0 the only crafting I'm going to do is dark projects etc for GS2....

 

Don't sell crafting short, You can now use arms tech and artifice to use the static weapons as cosmetics in the weapon outfitter.... oh wait... :jawa_mad:

 

I will admit, at this point I only really mess with armormech and synthweaving for the outfit customizer

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Didn't they already do something like this at launch? When 50 was the cap, I'm pretty sure crafters could reverse-engineer ops drops to learn the schematic and make more. Maybe they were still bound (so only useful for companions), but I think some of the stuff could be sold to other players. Anyways, this makes crafting more useful but still keeps the items pretty exclusive to Nim ops players. Due to the low supply, GTN prices would be very high for these crafted items. They would still be pretty exclusive and inaccessible to the average player much like 300 augments are now.

 

Regardless, the main reason crafting isn't in 7.0 is because they need to add a planet to go with it. Grade 12 crafting requires Grade 12 gathering. You need a planet to gather those mats. Companions can gather some mats with missions, but the mats required is based on both gathering on planet + missions. If they balance around just missions and later add gathering on planet, players will get materials too quickly. If they balance around gathering + missions, crafting will be too slow until the new planet is added. It doesn't work either way. The new planet has to be there.

Edited by ThanderSnB
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I don't like having crafting tied to the content a player plays. I prefer having crafting being independent like it is in many other games. Crafters should be able to craft BiS gear, but they shouldn't have to be NiM raiders in order to do so. I don't think SWtOR ever got crafting right, and they just keep making it worse.

 

I couldn't agree more. Crafting shouldn't depend on NiM drops. Or at least crafters should be able to craft those drops as well, using other resources.

 

It's really unfortunate because I'm one of the people who has always enjoyed crafting...

 

 

Regardless, the main reason crafting isn't in 7.0 is because they need to add a planet to go with it. Grade 12 crafting requires Grade 12 gathering. You need a planet to gather those mats. Companions can gather some mats with missions, but the mats required is based on both gathering on planet + missions. If they balance around just missions and later add gathering on planet, players will get materials too quickly. If they balance around gathering + missions, crafting will be too slow until the new planet is added. It doesn't work either way. The new planet has to be there.

 

Isn't Manaan a planet though? That they will expand later to make it a daily area as well? We're getting Manaan AND a flashpoint so I'm not sure what else Manaan could be than something like Onderon, with mission givers etc. And they'd just add dailies and weeklies with 7.1 - they're sure not making a new planet for that.

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Isn't Manaan a planet though? That they will expand later to make it a daily area as well? We're getting Manaan AND a flashpoint so I'm not sure what else Manaan could be than something like Onderon, with mission givers etc. And they'd just add dailies and weeklies with 7.1 - they're sure not making a new planet for that.

 

It could be, but the Manaan daily area has to be a pretty big area, maybe like Iokath, to support gathering. It doesn't sound like it's going to be that big, more like CZ-198 and less like Onderon. Gathering is possible on CZ, but nodes are sparse and you can't get anywhere without aggroing mobs.

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It could be, but the Manaan daily area has to be a pretty big area, maybe like Iokath, to support gathering. It doesn't sound like it's going to be that big, more like CZ-198 and less like Onderon. Gathering is possible on CZ, but nodes are sparse and you can't get anywhere without aggroing mobs.

 

But CZ-198 is ONLY a daily area. There are no story missions there.

 

So either Manaan will be large enough for both, or we'll get two different areas on Manaan... which would be a lot of work when they can do only one.

 

I'm honestly expecting something Ossus-size. We'll see.

 

Maybe they'll surprise us with another planet later on...

Edited by Pricia
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Didn't they already do something like this at launch? When 50 was the cap, I'm pretty sure crafters could reverse-engineer ops drops to learn the schematic and make more. Maybe they were still bound (so only useful for companions), but I think some of the stuff could be sold to other players.

 

This was kinda what I was referring to when I said "bring back reverse engineering". The feature technically still exists, but the main aspect of it is gone. It is utilizing a feature set that already exists in order to "fix" an aspect of this feature

 

 

Regardless, the main reason crafting isn't in 7.0 is because they need to add a planet to go with it. Grade 12 crafting requires Grade 12 gathering. You need a planet to gather those mats. [...] The new planet has to be there.

 

I disagree that this would require a new crafting tier, though the way the devs deal with crafting I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Just add in a singular new crafting mat for the bonded attatchments, they have done it before with 5.10 gearing and a couple other times if I recall correctly.

 

I couldn't agree more. Crafting shouldn't depend on NiM drops. Or at least crafters should be able to craft those drops as well, using other resources.

 

While I do agree that crafting shouldn't be reliant on NiM drops, especially in regards to materials, I am trying to meet the developers halfway with this suggestion. The devs seem to want NiM drops to be exclusive to NiM content, so by having the requirement to craft the gear be locked behind doing said content, it stays within the developer's intentions as much as possible.

 

The exception to this is that crafting would spread the gear through the "Non-NiM raider masses" which is against the dev's intentions, but so are the gold augments in live that are meant to be NiM/Group ranked locked. Though I doubt the gear would be readily available for at least a few weeks, and even at that point the price would be high, as ThanderSnB stated in the non-quoted section of his post above. I am kinda in the camp that thinks NiM gear being locked to NiM content isn't the worst thing possible, as gear has been a crutch for a long time in both hard mode and story mode content.

 

I am not saying it shouldn't be accessible at all, but I do think it being widespread isn't really a good thing for the game's health. The exception to this is if the "best in content" gear for the "lesser" content is broken outside of just having less power/crit/mastery. If accuracy and alacrity is broken on the best hard mode flashpoint gear you can get, that is an issue, and is not living up to the purpose of the gearing system being static, that of being plug and play for the average player. I hope that didn't come off as elitist.

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While I do agree that crafting shouldn't be reliant on NiM drops, especially in regards to materials, I am trying to meet the developers halfway with this suggestion. The devs seem to want NiM drops to be exclusive to NiM content, so by having the requirement to craft the gear be locked behind doing said content, it stays within the developer's intentions as much as possible.

 

I think the last thing this game needs is a massive windfall for NiM raider/crafters. If the only way those schematics were available was through REing NiM drops, then those crafters would be able to charge astronomical amounts for the gear. They already get exclusive goodies up the wazoo and much more of everything else. Non-NiM crafters shouldn't be forced to pay billions for a carry just so they can get the gear to RE it so they can competitively ply their trade.

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Kudos for trying to come up with something that would make crafting more important. Unfortunately, it seems plain that the devs have absolutely no intent of allowing crafters to do anything but entertain ourselves and maybe make a few credits. It's all about raiding with an occasional nod to pvp; what crafters get is slower, more tedious processes to do anything. Or we get locked out of our own activity - unless, of course, we raid and/or pvp instead of doing what we enjoy.

 

...not that I'm bitter and cynical about it or anything :jawa_biggrin:

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If Bioware’s intent was to make crafting the missing link and relevant again, then they’ve designed this completely backwards. If they were going to design it so crafting filled the gearing gaps or allow people to customise their stats with mods etc, they would have needed to release the crafting aspect at the same time (or at least by 7.1).

 

At this point, Bioware haven’t confirmed any crafting updates in 7.0, 7.1 or even 7.2. And if they do one, it will be an after thought and we may see it sometime past 7.3. Which is why I don’t believe crafting has even been considered at this point. I doubt Bioware will even get 7.2 (the pvp update) done before mid year or third quarter (if their lucky).

 

And while I would love to see crafting relevant again, especially the reverse engineering to get schematics and such, I wouldn’t hold your breath because it’s not likely to happen. Better to expect nothing or wish for nothing with these developers, because then you can’t be disappointed. Sadly that’s the state of mind you have to have if you want to play this game and not get depressed at the neglect Bioware shows it and the player base.

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Only SWG had a system that paired crafting with the endgame in an elegant fashion.

 

Gosh I miss that. I had a stim empire. Good times, lol!!!

 

I'd just be happy with making crafted gear that looks good. But why would they give us that when they could sell the gear for CC...

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I couldn't agree more. Crafting shouldn't depend on NiM drops. Or at least crafters should be able to craft those drops as well, using other resources.

 

It's really unfortunate because I'm one of the people who has always enjoyed crafting....

 

I've ALWAYS enjoyed crafting in just about any game I've played, (MxO I spent 1/2 my time crafting) SWTOR? not at all.effort/reward is too high.

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I would really like this to be the case. But I think those changes aren't a part of some smart plan to make crafting relevant. I think they are just effects of hubris and incompetence.

 

This may be true... but it does open the opportunity for us to push this idea further. If we never get moddable gear in favor of static gear, it gives us more leverage to push crafting changes and ask for a revitalized crafting system, and in turn, potentially game economy.

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This may be true... but it does open the opportunity for us to push this idea further. If we never get moddable gear in favor of static gear, it gives us more leverage to push crafting changes and ask for a revitalized crafting system, and in turn, potentially game economy.

 

BioWare would need an already agreed to and planed development budget from EA, which I highly doubt they’ll do. We can come up with all the greatest ideas for this game, but if EA don’t give them funds, then it’s pointless. And sadly, I can’t see EA agreeing to anymore developmental budgets after this debacle. If it hasn’t already been allocated by now, it probably won’t happen.

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BioWare would need an already agreed to and planed development budget from EA, which I highly doubt they’ll do. We can come up with all the greatest ideas for this game, but if EA don’t give them funds, then it’s pointless. And sadly, I can’t see EA agreeing to anymore developmental budgets after this debacle. If it hasn’t already been allocated by now, it probably won’t happen.

 

Which leads to the inevitable downward spiral towards mediocrity and oblivion

 

EA-EXEC: "Cartel market is going gangbusters, let's invest that money in other projects"

 

EA-EXEC#2: "We have this new project coming up! Anthem! It'll be great!"

 

EA=EXEC: "Make it happen number 2!"

 

Few Remaning SWTOR Devs: "Umm, what about our game?"

 

Anthem: BOMBS

 

SWTOR: Withers on a vine due to no return on (CM) investment.

 

EA-EXEC: "Huh, SWTOR isn't doing so well it seems, divert funds number 2!"

 

#2 - "To SWTOR sir?"

 

EA-EXEC: "Don't be silly number 2, that game is dying. We have other projects in the pipeline."

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Which leads to the inevitable downward spiral towards mediocrity and oblivion

 

EA-EXEC: "Cartel market is going gangbusters, let's invest that money in other projects"

 

EA-EXEC#2: "We have this new project coming up! Anthem! It'll be great!"

 

EA=EXEC: "Make it happen number 2!"

 

Few Remaning SWTOR Devs: "Umm, what about our game?"

 

Anthem: BOMBS

 

SWTOR: Withers on a vine due to no return on (CM) investment.

 

EA-EXEC: "Huh, SWTOR isn't doing so well it seems, divert funds number 2!"

 

#2 - "To SWTOR sir?"

 

EA-EXEC: "Don't be silly number 2, that game is dying. We have other projects in the pipeline."

 

I think that what SWTOR has for them is that... well, it's Star Wars. They probably made a fortune on the steadfast master and infamous bounty hunter outfits, and they just have to keep adding cool outfits and they'll make a killing.

 

Just imagine if they decide to make a sword/vibroblade combat style for tech classes - wouldn't take too much work because they could reuse a lot of the lightsabers animations and, I don't know about you, but I'd want to buy a cool looking sword. There, pretty easy money too. Add Fenec's outfit from the Book of Boba Fett and I'm there.

 

I didn't play Anthem and I don't know how microtransactions worked there, but it sure didn't have the massive brand name behind it that this game has.

Edited by Pricia
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They probably made a fortune on the steadfast master and infamous bounty hunter outfits, and they just have to keep adding cool outfits and they'll make a killing.

 

Since I compulsively collect things, I have noticed that they don't make nearly as much stuff to sell on the CM as they used to. Less stuff, longer in between, and people have greatly slowed down on reselling new sets on the GTN since they did away with referral coins.

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