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Game Design 101. Loot > Grindy Tokens


OrionSol

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I could live with the tokens if they made every piece of gear modable and let us buy the mods, hilts, barrels, etc with them.

What I can't really live with is static gear with fixed stats. Taking away player choice is the worst part of 7.0.

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as title says

 

Loot > Grindy Tokens

 

We should get back to basics with game design.

 

Why are we going back to PVE/PVP gear and grind tokens. /yawn

 

Sorry, but Loot that is completely based on RNG like it has been since 6.0 is not> then grindy tokens. I'm tired of RNG and for all those people that loved the 6.0 gearing I'm sorry, but I'd rather get less loot, but more Meaningful drops when I get them. I like the new 7.0 gearing system, and I've played on the PTS.

 

Edit: having something to work towards is a good thing in any MMO is a good thing. It gives you a reason to keep playing.

Edited by Toraak
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Tokens are good, RNG is terrible in a P2W game like SWTOR. BUT, the way tokens get implemented does matter. And I fully agree that "grindy tokens" are not the answer, that's just trying to squeeze content out of a dusty old game people have replayed a bajillion times already. Browbeating design is SWTOR's bread and butter though, they only listen on that after people leave and then they just pull back as little as they can get away with. Edited by Rolodome
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Sorry, but Loot that is completely based on RNG like it has been since 6.0 is not> then grindy tokens.

 

RNG was mitigated by vendors that provided you with great abundance of set bonuses and min-maxing mods and enchancements was pretty much meaningless for most players as most of the game wasn't scaled to 75 so unless you run Nature of Progress on highest difficulty you can put whatever you have there as long as it's 306.

So, no, in my opinion existing system is much better. And, seeing the gear they have planned for 7.0, in Spoils of War you had a chance to get something good. With new system everybody gets trash that should be world drops, just trash of different colors depending on what content you're playing.

 

Edit: having something to work towards is a good thing in any MMO is a good thing. It gives you a reason to keep playing.

 

Gives you a reason to keep playing, gives me a reason to consider unsubscribing for the first time in five years. Not before seeing it live, of course.

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RNG was mitigated by vendors that provided you with great abundance of set bonuses and min-maxing mods and enchancements was pretty much meaningless for most players as most of the game wasn't scaled to 75 so unless you run Nature of Progress on highest difficulty you can put whatever you have there as long as it's 306.

So, no, in my opinion existing system is much better. And, seeing the gear they have planned for 7.0, in Spoils of War you had a chance to get something good. With new system everybody gets trash that should be world drops, just trash of different colors depending on what content you're playing.

 

 

 

Gives you a reason to keep playing, gives me a reason to consider unsubscribing for the first time in five years. Not before seeing it live, of course.

 

RNG was not mitigated at all for Mods/enhancements. That is bull. If you wanted the correct Lethal 80 R-2 you had to RNG it. Same for the BiS enhancements.

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RNG was not mitigated at all for Mods/enhancements. That is bull. If you wanted the correct Lethal 80 R-2 you had to RNG it. Same for the BiS enhancements.

 

Not worth it for me just for one operation and few flashpoints that were scaled to 75; sure, would be nice to have but I can live with sub-optimal when it has so few uses. And how is having no mods and enchancements (because that's what's coming with 7.0 - even max 330 gear isn't moddable) better?

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Not worth it for me just for one operation and few flashpoints that were scaled to 75; sure, would be nice to have but I can live with sub-optimal when it has so few uses. And how is having no mods and enchancements (because that's what's coming with 7.0 - even max 330 gear isn't moddable) better?

 

Honestly that is only temporary. Eventually they'll be put back in, and BW has said all gear will be increasing as new content comes out so even solo players will have access to them at some point as well.

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Honestly that is only temporary. Eventually they'll be put back in, and BW has said all gear will be increasing as new content comes out so even solo players will have access to them at some point as well.

 

They also said we'd be getting level 400 command crates. And gear levels over 306. And that there would be a point to renown. So far they've pretty much abandoned every system right after they released it or very shortly afterwards.

 

Will someone who just plays the conquests for gear have access to the vendors/currencies that sell level 334 mods when the top gear level is 342 (or whatever)? Or will that vendor/currency still be restricted to Ops players? There are still many questions.

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They also said we'd be getting level 400 command crates. And gear levels over 306. And that there would be a point to renown. So far they've pretty much abandoned every system right after they released it or very shortly afterwards.

 

Will someone who just plays the conquests for gear have access to the vendors/currencies that sell level 334 mods when the top gear level is 342 (or whatever)? Or will that vendor/currency still be restricted to Ops players? There are still many questions.

Their tendency to create elaborate systems only to abandon them is one of the most frustrating parts about this game. There's no sense of continuity to things. It's so bad, makes me wonder if the only thing that's protected the class stories from being butchered as well, is their bad code that makes them not want to touch it.

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Their tendency to create elaborate systems only to abandon them is one of the most frustrating parts about this game. There's no sense of continuity to things. It's so bad, makes me wonder if the only thing that's protected the class stories from being butchered as well, is their bad code that makes them not want to touch it.

 

This is their legacy and hallmark since update 1.2. BW developers and producers have tried so many things to "improve" the game. However, when players finally agreed on the status quo of things (as we have with 6.0 current set up), they fall back on, "we can make it better," or "we don't like how the players are using and gaming the system to get where they are," they produce updates like 7.0 The same can be said about 6.0 until they decided to eventually morph it into what we have today. That, in my book, is a sign of failure.

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Fun fact - token drops are RNG too! Isn't it great how they are getting rid of RNG by implementing a system that randomly drops tokens???

 

Really thought - I kinda agree with OP. It's not the same. IMO any boss in a flashpoint (no matter the mode) should drop loot (as well as tokens). Make it so that MM FPs have a better chance of dropping a better upgrade, I don't care, but we need something we can disintegrate into fragments or scraps or whatever too (considering how rare either of those are going to be in 7.0).

 

I mean, I know we'll get 100 fragments through CQ and more through the guild CQ payout, but is there any other source of fragments in 7.0? What about scraps? If we get no gear to disintegrate, how are we supposed to get them?

Edited by Pricia
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Honestly that is only temporary. Eventually they'll be put back in, and BW has said all gear will be increasing as new content comes out so even solo players will have access to them at some point as well.

 

Content has been coming out at a snails pace though. I cant even tell you what the storyline is right now, its been so long and fragmented. By the time new content rolls around so that solo players can get moddable gear again, it will be 2023.

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Edit: having something to work towards is a good thing in any MMO is a good thing. It gives you a reason to keep playing.

 

Alts is a reason to keep playing. The Legacy system was a huge selling point when this game came out, but 6.0 was first time I felt like I was truly taking advantage of that system and I ended up playing so much content and messing with so many alts that this is most hours I have put into this game, since launch for sure.

 

I agree with your other posts about RNG being a pain, but they could of just kept the same gear rating system and had vendors that sold specific modes or enhancements for tech fragments.

 

If they want us to play specific content for rewards, how about putting cool looking cosmetic armors and mounts as drops for difficult content. Instead of putting all the cool looking stuff on the Cartel Market, sprinkle that stuff as rewards for difficult end game stuff.

Edited by kirorx
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How many people won't do ranked PvP, even with the special titles, or other cosmetics? How many don't do NiM Ops even with the cosmetic mounts? Some may do a sale run for the NiM ones, but otherwise I don't see many getting into consistent NiM Ops for cosmetics.

 

I just don't see cosmetics truly getting people into any kind of content consistently. I see more of the go get what you want and stop doing it permanently mindset from that.

 

Edit: If they put cool looking gear in there, you'd see these forums go nuts with. (But it's not fair that looks awesome and you locked it behind content wall).

Edited by Toraak
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Sorry, but Loot that is completely based on RNG like it has been since 6.0 is not> then grindy tokens. I'm tired of RNG and for all those people that loved the 6.0 gearing I'm sorry, but I'd rather get less loot, but more Meaningful drops when I get them. I like the new 7.0 gearing system, and I've played on the PTS.

 

Edit: having something to work towards is a good thing in any MMO is a good thing. It gives you a reason to keep playing.

 

You would be in the minority of players, replay value is often equal to loot aspects/RNG. Why would you play a level knowing you're not going to get rewarded items.

 

And the system they have on PTS is 20x more punishing then 6.0. You go from having a chance to get upgrades to needing to grind for hours upon hours to acquire the pieces to make one miniscule upgrade.

 

In 6.0 you could gear from basic level 75 to 306 in a couple hours, might not have the best mods/enhancements but you're at least geared.

 

In PTS you literally will have to replay the same content over and over again to be given scraps, there is STILL the RNG element of getting the scraps you need.

 

I advise you to test it before you praise it, because the PTS is the most punishing loot/gear system I've seen in a game.

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You would be in the minority of players, replay value is often equal to loot aspects/RNG. Why would you play a level knowing you're not going to get rewarded items.

 

And the system they have on PTS is 20x more punishing then 6.0. You go from having a chance to get upgrades to needing to grind for hours upon hours to acquire the pieces to make one miniscule upgrade.

 

In 6.0 you could gear from basic level 75 to 306 in a couple hours, might not have the best mods/enhancements but you're at least geared.

 

In PTS you literally will have to replay the same content over and over again to be given scraps, there is STILL the RNG element of getting the scraps you need.

 

I advise you to test it before you praise it, because the PTS is the most punishing loot/gear system I've seen in a game.

 

I'd argue that it's the same. I know doing content now will net me no meaningful rewards. What I mean by this is when I exit a FP, or Operation or whatever other content I do, I know all I expect to get is useless items to be disintegrated for a tiny amount of tech frags to hopefully get the correct RNG for the mods/enhancements I want once I have the set bonus/tactical. How is that any different from what we're getting on PTS? we get those same tokens for doing content from each boss on the PTS for upgrading gear it's just a different currency depending on what style of play your doing (except you can use that currency to actually get an upgrade 100% of the time). You can even cross Conquest/fp/Ops gear. Say I grind a set of 322 Conquest gear. I go into a MM FP. Any boss drops will be for that style of play, but at the same item level, so now I can choose which style of gear I wish to upgrade to the next level the 322 conquest piece, or the 322 FP piece. (Options are good)

 

The difference for the PTS and live is. I am going to 100% get an item upgrade of my Lowest gear piece when I complete any FP weekly, or Operation weekly (up to the maximum for that content of course). on live I could do 100 FP's, or 100 Ops, and not necessarily get anything I'd need.

 

For 6.0 getting to 306 was never the gearing system. There is a ton of 306 gear that should never be used, and always should be Disintegrated for Tech frags. Getting the correct Armorings (amplifiers as well), mods and enhancements was the 6.0 gearing system, and you could do a ton of content and get no meaningful reward from it.

 

I will also add here that in 6.0 if your properly Min/Maxing for all content, depending on your guild perks you could in theory need to make 4 sets of gear for each class. I'll give some examples for a DPS.

 

1) Capped set: (guild using alac buff perk) using Warding mods, since power is capped in capped content, and 451 tertiary stat enhancements) (used for all content not NiM for capped content.)

 

2) Capped set: No alac guild perk: using warding mods, and 451 tertiary stat enhancements. (NiM capped content set)

 

3) Uncapped content set: using alac perk and proper Min/maxed mods/enhancements. (for SM/HM dxun set, or 75 FP set)

 

4) Uncapped set: No alac buff, using proper Min/Max Mods and enhancements. (NiM Dxun set)

 

So those saying that that 7.0 gearing will be slower, I'm not sure I'd agree, since getting the proper mods/enhancements/armorings, with amplifiers for min/max all is a pain to get. At the very least having 2 sets per class I found to be very useful. Capped, and uncapped, but even with that said getting the right mods/enhancements took a very long time.

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I'd argue that it's the same. I know doing content now will net me no meaningful rewards. What I mean by this is when I exit a FP, or Operation or whatever other content I do, I know all I expect to get is useless items to be disintegrated for a tiny amount of tech frags to hopefully get the correct RNG for the mods/enhancements I want once I have the set bonus/tactical. How is that any different from what we're getting on PTS? we get those same tokens for doing content from each boss on the PTS for upgrading gear it's just a different currency depending on what style of play your doing (except you can use that currency to actually get an upgrade 100% of the time). You can even cross Conquest/fp/Ops gear. Say I grind a set of 322 Conquest gear. I go into a MM FP. Any boss drops will be for that style of play, but at the same item level, so now I can choose which style of gear I wish to upgrade to the next level the 322 conquest piece, or the 322 FP piece. (Options are good)

 

The difference for the PTS and live is. I am going to 100% get an item upgrade of my Lowest gear piece when I complete any FP weekly, or Operation weekly (up to the maximum for that content of course). on live I could do 100 FP's, or 100 Ops, and not necessarily get anything I'd need.

 

For 6.0 getting to 306 was never the gearing system. There is a ton of 306 gear that should never be used, and always should be Disintegrated for Tech frags. Getting the correct Armorings (amplifiers as well), mods and enhancements was the 6.0 gearing system, and you could do a ton of content and get no meaningful reward from it.

 

I will also add here that in 6.0 if your properly Min/Maxing for all content, depending on your guild perks you could in theory need to make 4 sets of gear for each class. I'll give some examples for a DPS.

 

1) Capped set: (guild using alac buff perk) using Warding mods, since power is capped in capped content, and 451 tertiary stat enhancements) (used for all content not NiM for capped content.)

 

2) Capped set: No alac guild perk: using warding mods, and 451 tertiary stat enhancements. (NiM capped content set)

 

3) Uncapped content set: using alac perk and proper Min/maxed mods/enhancements. (for SM/HM dxun set, or 75 FP set)

 

4) Uncapped set: No alac buff, using proper Min/Max Mods and enhancements. (NiM Dxun set)

 

So those saying that that 7.0 gearing will be slower, I'm not sure I'd agree, since getting the proper mods/enhancements/armorings, with amplifiers for min/max all is a pain to get. At the very least having 2 sets per class I found to be very useful. Capped, and uncapped, but even with that said getting the right mods/enhancements took a very long time.

 

Not really. I've been playing a little over a year, I have full gold augments with perfectly min maxed sub 75, 75+ content, rare sets (apex, etc) PvP sets, as well as a variety of alternate sets for different scenarios (stun/snare builds, hybrids, etc.)

 

Was super easy to gear and get loot in 6.0, its just most people didn't understand the way it worked as it was poorly explained, as are most things due to constant flux.

 

I enjoyed the process is the major difference. In 6.0 I had the option to build how I wanted. Want to make a Red Healer or a Sorc Tank, have at it. Want to have alac builds/crit builds... Have at it. And I was rewarded with pieces to make the sets I wanted as I played levels.

 

7.0 the stat breakdowns absolutely lock this in place. You have no wiggle room.

 

Not to mention at best all I can get are generic stat items that at 320 my 306 gear still gives me better stats.

 

Have you tried it is my question, bc its literally trading RNG for worse RNG and increased grind. But like if you played it on the PTS and you genuinely prefer that, to each their own I guess.

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Yes I played on the PTS, and I enjoyed the gearing system. I didn't feel like RNG was in 7.0 I could upgrade stuff when I acquired enough currencies, or from doing weeklies. Very little RNG.

 

I do wish they'd reduce how much accuracy is needed in the stats, and wouldn't mind having mods/enhancements available. With that being said, I am not concerned what so ever on the system itself. I have felt no sense of reward or accomplishment towards 6.0's gearing system, it was just an RNG fest that had little % chance of giving us what we actually needed or wanted, and a ton of stuff to Deconstruct since it was useless.

 

I did complete the spoils of war achievements, which is the only sense of accomplishment I had, since many of those sets were MM Dxun only or grinded from tech frags. (not referring to apex predator set and the like, but the ones Kai never put up on the vendor, except from his random unique item box)

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Yes I played on the PTS, and I enjoyed the gearing system. I didn't feel like RNG was in 7.0 I could upgrade stuff when I acquired enough currencies, or from doing weeklies. Very little RNG.

 

I do wish they'd reduce how much accuracy is needed in the stats, and wouldn't mind having mods/enhancements available. With that being said, I am not concerned what so ever on the system itself. I have felt no sense of reward or accomplishment towards 6.0's gearing system, it was just an RNG fest that had little % chance of giving us what we actually needed or wanted, and a ton of stuff to Deconstruct since it was useless.

 

I did complete the spoils of war achievements, which is the only sense of accomplishment I had, since many of those sets were MM Dxun only or grinded from tech frags. (not referring to apex predator set and the like, but the ones Kai never put up on the vendor, except from his random unique item box)

 

Fair enough, You would be the first I've encountered personally that felt like that. But I don't have any ill will towards you for it, it does confuse me a bit bc I can't follow it but I respect you for stating an unpopular opinion with conviction. Also appreciate you explaining your reasons.

 

I don't think its what the majority wants, but at least I know now at least someone might enjoy the changes.

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I guess the easiest way to explain it for people is. When I have to grind for a piece of gear or earn it from doing difficult content, It brings out a sense of accomplishment when I finally get that piece. 6.0 I just never felt like that when gear was handed out like candy, combined with the RNG'ness of the system.

 

I doubt I will ever get BiS during 7.0 because I'm not very interested in NiM personally, (granted I do it from time to time if the guild needs one more if someone couldn't make it). But I do feel like those that do such difficult content should also have that same sense of accomplishment by getting BiS gear. I know many will argue that they get special mounts from that content, but from those that I know, they don't care for such things. Once you get that special mount not much incentive to go back in during 6.0 for them. At least in 7.0 more people will have some incentive to go from HM to NiM if they so desire however to get better rewards. I suspect most people will ignore such content.

 

As for myself, when I was on the PTS in 323 gear I had no issues doing any story, or solo content in the game, but others may have a different take on that. Not everyone plays at the same skill level.

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At least in 7.0 more people will have some incentive to go from HM to NiM if they so desire however to get better rewards.

Yeah, whole 1% will now do NiM instead of 0,5%

 

Look, I get all the "gaming principles" stuff. I don't want the game industry constantly getting streamlined, dumbed down, casualized and trivialized to the point there's zero challenge or goals and pressing 1 button could complete an entire game.

 

But there's a biiiiig difference between that and what 7.0 is doing. 7.0 is going MORE hardcore when it comes to gearing than even 1.0 did. How in the freaking world is this sensible for SWTOR in 2022???

 

- SWTOR was never Ops-centric in the first place

- SWTOR was never big enough to sustain huge raiding playerbase even if it wasn't Ops-centric

- SWTOR is at its lowest playerbase it ever was, EVERY player remaining is now critical

- SWTOR's direct competion succeeded the most in the past (WOW) or succeeds the most currently (FFXIV, ESO) by attracting and respecting both story/casual and hardcore (raiding) players, not straight out dumping all over casuals and being proud about it

- SWTOR adds less content than ever. In 6.0 cycle, easy gearing was at least one of the thing even casuals could and in many cases wanted to do in between massive content droughts. It became one of the casual grind activities. What will replace it for 7.0? Tons of new content which didn't happen in the past 3 hears but now suddenly it will for some mysterious reason?

 

Even in the classic MMORPG scene, raiding decreased heavily in relevancy and imprtance in the past decade, so going after that crowd and formula NOW while disregarding other type of players/content/hooks/incentives is just mindboggling. It would at least make sorta sense in say, 2013 or around then, but not nowadays...

Edited by Pietrastor
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Yeah, whole 1% will now do NiM instead of 0,5%

 

Look, I get all the "gaming principles" stuff. I don't want the game industry constantly getting streamlined, dumbed down, casualized and trivialized to the point there's zero challenge or goals and pressing 1 button could complete an entire game.

 

But there's a biiiiig difference between that and what 7.0 is doing. 7.0 is going MORE hardcore when it comes to gearing than even 1.0 did. How in the freaking world is this sensible for SWTOR in 2022???

 

- SWTOR was never Ops-centric in the first place

- SWTOR was never big enough to sustain huge raiding playerbase even if it wasn't Ops-centric

- SWTOR is at its lowest playerbase it ever was, EVERY player remaining is now critical

- SWTOR's direct competion succeeded the most in the past (WOW) or succeeds the most currently (FFXIV, ESO) by attracting and respecting both story/casual and hardcore (raiding) players, not straight out dumping all over casuals and being proud about it

- SWTOR adds less content than ever. In 6.0 cycle, easy gearing was at least one of the thing even casuals could and in many cases wanted to do in between massive content droughts. It became one of the casual grind activities. What will replace it for 7.0? Tons of new content which didn't happen in the past 3 hears but now suddenly it will for some mysterious reason?

 

Even in the classic MMORPG scene, raiding decreased heavily in relevancy and imprtance in the past decade, so going after that crowd and formula NOW while disregarding other type of players/content/hooks/incentives is just mindboggling. It would at least make sorta sense in say, 2013 or around then, but not nowadays...

Well said. Mindboggling is a good way to put what's going on. Like meta disagreements about RNG vs not aside, it seems clear they are making gearing harder for no good reason. And if they really think it's going to somehow keep the players occupied, I think they are overestimating the extent to which they can shove around the remaining people without losing too many of them. Every time we go through this, there are people who say the critics are being too dramatic, or that it's not that bad, or maybe even that it's good actually, and then lo and behold, the playerbase takes a hit it doesn't recover from and the content drip becomes even smaller. That a few are sunk cost fallacy gluttons for punishment like myself who may return years later if the game is still going doesn't change the fact that most aren't and never come back once they've had enough.

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