Is Riposte Worth It?

[Naroga]

Currently, I have Riposte (the ability you can use after a parry and ignores the GCD) bound to an easily accessible keybind. I try to make use of it every time it procs since I have the talent that reduces my Rebukes cooldown by 3 seconds when I Riposte.

 

My question is: Is Riposte worth the focus cost? Does it do enough damage? Sometimes I hit the button, see the animation, but don't notice any damage being dealt. If I hit another attack too soon after hitting Riposte, does it not deal damage?

 

Any clarification would be most welcome. Thanks!

[EasymodeX]

1. Riposte is efficent in any spec. Just make sure you float at enough focus to use it without causing problems with your other abilities. Generally, make a habit of hitting Strike with Riposte to offset the cost and stabilize your focus pool.

 

2. There is currently a significant UI bug with ability queuing where abilities that are not on the global cooldown (like Riposte ... and almost all Sent/Marauder defensive cooldowns), will not fire correctly if you press buttons too fast. Yes, BioWare has released the *******st UI for an MMO in a decade. Yes, they are aware of the issue and are in the process of resolving it.

 

 

Workaround: When your off-GCD ability gets "stuck", use another normal on-GCD ability like Strike to "clear" the bug. You should be able to use Riposte afterwards.

[MBirkhofer]

no its not. its terrible. Focus is our damage. Spending 3 focus on a poor damage/focus move is not good.

 

 

Off the GCD is meaningless. GCD is not our limiting factor. Focus is.

[Naroga]

no its not. its terrible. Focus is our damage. Spending 3 focus on a poor damage/focus move is not good.

 

 

Off the GCD is meaningless. GCD is not our limiting factor. Focus is.

 

That's unfortunate. I hesitate to take it off my bar, since I've gotten so use to using it. I can't imagine they'd let the ability be terrible for too long, especially since it requires a certain degree of skill to execute.

[photoheathen]

That's unfortunate. I hesitate to take it off my bar, since I've gotten so use to using it. I can't imagine they'd let the ability be terrible for too long, especially since it requires a certain degree of skill to execute.

 

It's neither terrible nor great, more of take-it-or-leave-it ability, but certainly not worthy of prime real estate on your bar. Pop it when you have full focus and other abilities are on CD. Otherwise it's not too useful. It becomes slightly more useful when you spec Recompense in Watchmen and Jedi Crusader in Combat as that allows you to pop Rebuke a little more often, for whatever that may be worth to you.

Edited December 30, 2011 by photoheathen

[StyxzieWaterz]

I know as watchman it becomes less and less useful as you level.

 

The focus is much better spent on an extra slash.

 

I could see it being ok in combat, but then they're so pressed for buff timers I probably wouldn't use riposte there either.

[MBirkhofer]

I know as watchman it becomes less and less useful as you level.

 

The focus is much better spent on an extra slash.

 

I could see it being ok in combat, but then they're so pressed for buff timers I probably wouldn't use riposte there either.

 

Focus. your slash is buffed by 15% crit, and 6% damage. slash is way better.

Combat. blade rush should be the obvious choice.

watchman. no obvious buff to slash. best +focus generation. the most viable place to use it. But even then. not really. A 2 focus slash is better.

Edited December 30, 2011 by MBirkhofer

[EasymodeX]

I'm pretty sure if I could use Strike, Zealous Strike, Precision Strike, Blade Rush, and Blade Storm in 1 GCD I'd be a happy camper.

 

GCDs are a resource pool the same as focus.

 

We can go through a whole simplified simulation if you want. This is a sample sequence of ZS, BR, Strike, and Blade Storm only. Precision and other buffs changes the approach to the rotation; this keeps it simple:

 

USING RIPOSTE:

 

[font=Lucida Console]time  ability1	ability2         ending focus	damage1	damage20.0   ZS        Riposte          3              600     9001.5   BR                         1              1100    2503.0   Strike                     3              6004.5   Storm                      1              28006.0   Strike                     3              600     2507.5   BR        Ataru +1 focus   1              1100    2509.0   Strike                     3              600     25010.5  BR                         1              1100    25012.0  ZS        Riposte          4              600     90013.5  Storm     Ataru +1 focus   3              280015.0  Strike                     5              600     25016.5  BR                         3              1100    25018.0  Strike                     5              60019.5  BR                         2              1100    25021.0  Strike                     4              600     25022.5  Storm     Ataru +1 focus   2              2800[/font]

 

Total damage: 22750

Net focus: 2

Time: 22.5 (24)

 

 

NO RIPOSTE:

 

[font=Lucida Console]time  ability1  ability2         ending focus damage1 damage20.0   ZS                         6            6001.5   BR                         4            1100    2503.0   Storm                      2            2800	4.5   Strike                     4            600     2506.0   BR                         2            1100    2507.5   Strike    Ataru +1 focus   5            600	9.0   BR                         2            1100    25010.5  Strike                     4            600     25012.0  Storm                      2            280013.5  ZS                         8            60015.0  BR        Ataru +1 focus   7            1100    25016.5  BR                         5            1100    25018.0  BR                         3            1100    25019.5  Strike                     5            60021.0  Storm     Ataru +1 focus   4            2800	22.5  BR                         2            1100    250[/font]

 

Total damage: 21950

Net focus: 2

Time: 22.5 (24)

 

 

Note: Riposte is even better for a Watchman build, since the Watchman build is more heavily weighted to Overcharge and Cauterize, which you have more than enough focus for. In a Watchman build, Riposte replaces Slash events as a "focus dump", and Slash sucks dick. In a Combat build, Riposte replaces Blade Rush as a dump, and Blade Rush is way better than Slash, but Riposte is still efficient.

 

The only caveat is that when you use Riposte, make sure you float at enough focus to use your other stuff on cooldown and so on. Riposte becomes inefficient when you randomly run out of focus because you weren't paying attention, and then you let your BR buff drop, or your Cauterize uptime suffers, etc. This, however, is a user l2p constraint.

Edited December 30, 2011 by EasymodeX

[RamzaBehoulve]

If you use it diligently like someone suggests...might be worth it, but personnally in over 10 Warzones, it never got me a kill and in a world of only 2 skill bars at the bottom, there is no way in hell I'm wasting a slot on this.

[Naroga]

 

Note: Riposte is even better for a Watchman build, since the Watchman build is more heavily weighted to Overcharge and Cauterize, which you have more than enough focus for. In a Watchman build, Riposte replaces Slash events as a "focus dump", and Slash sucks dick. In a Combat build, Riposte replaces Blade Rush as a dump, and Blade Rush is way better than Slash, but Riposte is still efficient.

 

The only caveat is that when you use Riposte, make sure you float at enough focus to use your other stuff on cooldown and so on. This, however, is a user l2p constraint.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

Now, does Riposte do its damage the moment I hit the button, or do I have to wait for its animation to complete before queueing my next attack? Sometimes I feel like I over-write the Riposte if I hit a slash too quickly afterwards.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Naroga

[EasymodeX]

Riposte hits instantly. Just be aware of the UI ability issue, and when your Riposte "gets stuck" or doesn't seem to fire correctly, do NOT stop or stutter your normal sequence to make Riposte happen. Just try it again after another GCD.

[MBirkhofer]

I'm pretty sure if I could use Strike, Zealous Strike, Precision Strike, Blade Rush, and Blade Storm in 1 GCD I'd be a happy camper.

 

GCDs are a resource pool the same as focus.

 

We can go through a whole simplified simulation if you want. This is a sample sequence of ZS, BR, Strike, and Blade Storm only. Precision and other buffs changes the approach to the rotation; this keeps it simple:

 

USING RIPOSTE:

[font="Lucida Console"]
time  ability1	ability2         ending focus	damage1	damage2
0.0   ZS        Riposte          3              600     900
1.5   BR                         1              1100    250
3.0   Strike                     3              600
4.5   Storm                      1              2800
6.0   Strike                     3              600     250
7.5   BR        Ataru +1 focus   1              1100    250
9.0   Strike                     3              600     250
10.5  BR                         1              1100    250
12.0  ZS        Riposte          4              600     900
13.5  Storm     Ataru +1 focus   3              2800
15.0  Strike                     5              600     250
16.5  BR                         3              1100    250
18.0  Strike                     5              600
19.5  BR                         2              1100    250
21.0  Strike                     4              600     250
22.5  Storm     Ataru +1 focus   2              2800
[/font]

Total damage: 22750

Net focus: 2

Time: 22.5 (24)

 

 

NO RIPOSTE:

[font="Lucida Console"]
time  ability1  ability2         ending focus damage1 damage2
0.0   ZS                         6            600
1.5   BR                         4            1100    250
3.0   Storm                      2            2800	
4.5   Strike                     4            600     250
6.0   BR                         2            1100    250
7.5   Strike    Ataru +1 focus   5            600	
9.0   BR                         2            1100    250
10.5  Strike                     4            600     250
12.0  Storm                      2            2800
13.5  ZS                         8            600
15.0  BR        Ataru +1 focus   7            1100    250
16.5  BR                         5            1100    250
18.0  BR                         3            1100    250
19.5  Strike                     5            600
21.0  Storm     Ataru +1 focus   4            2800	
22.5  BR                         2            1100    250
[/font]

Total damage: 21950

Net focus: 2

Time: 22.5 (24)

 

 

Note: Riposte is even better for a Watchman build, since the Watchman build is more heavily weighted to Overcharge and Cauterize, which you have more than enough focus for. In a Watchman build, Riposte replaces Slash events as a "focus dump", and Slash sucks dick. In a Combat build, Riposte replaces Blade Rush as a dump, and Blade Rush is way better than Slash, but Riposte is still efficient.

 

The only caveat is that when you use Riposte, make sure you float at enough focus to use your other stuff on cooldown and so on. Riposte becomes inefficient when you randomly run out of focus because you weren't paying attention, and then you let your BR buff drop, or your Cauterize uptime suffers, etc. This, however, is a user l2p constraint.

 

so you are ignoring the extra 10% damage after every one of those BR. Skipping additional focus spenders, which was the entire point of it. Skipping the higher force crit rates, as well as the +30% crit damage on force moves, and blade rush.

[Juumanistra]

so you are ignoring the extra 10% damage after every one of those BR. Skipping additional focus spenders, which was the entire point of it. Skipping the higher force crit rates, as well as the +30% crit damage on force moves, and blade rush.

 

When EasymodeX said "simplified", he meant simplified. Really, his simulation is basically useless because it doesn't take into account Precise Slash: For better or worse, every Combat Sentinel should have that on cooldown. Everything beyond that is just gravy in terms of methodological problems. (Though, as a Focus-expender, Riposte would benefit from Combat Trance's damage boost too.) All of that said, as an abstract exercise on terms generally favorable to Riposte (because it was not competing with Precise Slash or Blade Rush's Zen uptime), the ability provides a ~4% throughput boost. Which, while not nothing, is sufficiently marginal that it could be lost due suboptimal play arising from player reaction time, the "snagging" of abilities off the GCD, or connectivity issues.

 

Which leaves us back at Riposte being more or less a break-even choice for a high-level Combat Sentinel in terms of net DPS. You'll get more mileage out of Riposte the lower your level, where the throttle on your DPS is more GCDs than lack of Focus. (I think the prime example of this is the Flesh Raider Chieftain, the optional Elite in one of the JK story instances on Tython. Trying to beat him with and without Riposte is like the difference between night and day.)

[EasymodeX]

you are ignoring the extra 10% damage after every one of those BR.

 

Pretty sure you don't get 10% extra damage after every BR.

 

1: "Your Ataru Form hits have a 30% chance to make your next rage spender deal 10% more damage".

 

2: Both sequences have the same 9 Ataru procs. Zzz.

 

 

Skipping additional focus spenders, which was the entire point of it.

 

Additional focus spenders such as ... ?

 

I spent the same amount of focus in both models.

 

 

Skipping the higher force crit rates,

 

Higher force crit rates? Blade Rush has a higher crit rate than Riposte? Since when? Total number of Blade Rushes (and fewer Strikes) is the tradeoff for using Riposte.

 

 

as well as the +30% crit damage on force moves, and blade rush.

 

I factored in the 30% crit damage for Blade Rush by bumping the sample BR damage from 1k to 1.1k. A general nominal BR at level for a fully geared 120-ish rating (tier 1 raid - Tionese, don't remember what the exact rating was) is going to sit at 30% crit or so (35% in a raid). A non-crit non-precision strike'd BR is going to hit for around 800. 800 at a 35% crit rate with a 1.9x crit multiplier is going to land at 1052 damage on average.

 

The "force moves", by which you mean Storm primarily, already has that factored in, unless you think you can hit 2800 Blade Storms without PS in Tionese-ish gear. Ataru procs are irrelevant since you get about the same number of procs between both sequences. Even if they were relevant, I tooltip about 285. I suppose if I factor in armor and modify for average crit, I could bump them all to 300. This doesn't change the result since both sequences end up with 9 Ataru procs (Riposte sequence because you get in more actual attacks, no-Riposte because you get more 100% chance Ataru procs on BRs).

 

 

When EasymodeX said "simplified", he meant simplified. Really, his simulation is basically useless because it doesn't take into account Precise Slash:

 

Indeed, but I wouldn't go so far as to say useless. When you're dumping with full Combat, you basically have alternate rotations for "PRECISION STRIKE PREP" to build focus while maintaining the BR buff, and then "PRECISION + ZEN PREP" so you can dump hard when you use both cooldowns.

 

For the other 40% of the fight, however, Riposte comes into play. Note that this gets into "what the **** kind of fight are we discussing?".

 

1. General PvE: Against trash mobs Riposte has the additional advantage of faster burst, killing normal / strongs a GCD sooner, so you take less damage.

2. Hard PvE: You're busy trying to live against the 3 elites you're trying to solo, so Riposte begins to interfere with your rotation.

3. Raid PvE: You don't get many chances to Riposte at all, so the discussion is moot. It should remain on your bar though so when it happens to be up while you swap target to the Mind Trap, you can blow it the **** up as fast as possible.

 

 

And, as already noted, Riposte fares the poorest in the context of Combat at high levels. For other specs, it's pretty clearly a Good Idea.

Edited December 30, 2011 by EasymodeX

[Juumanistra]

Indeed, but I wouldn't go so far as to say useless. When you're dumping with full Combat, you basically have alternate rotations for "PRECISION STRIKE PREP" to build focus while maintaining the BR buff, and then "PRECISION + ZEN PREP" so you can dump hard when you use both cooldowns.

 

I admit I said that rather poorly. It's useless as a simulation, because you can't truly simulate anything with post-L41 Combat without making provision for Precise Slash. It's quite useful in the abstract for showing Riposte's modest DPS gain, though, which was my poorly worded point. (Also to rebuff the notion that it should not be discarded due to seeming failures to account for things like increased crit chances on Blade Storm, though your further postings have shown that was not the case.)

 

For the other 40% of the fight, however, Riposte comes into play. Note that this gets into "what the **** kind of fight are we discussing?".

 

1. General PvE: Against trash mobs Riposte has the additional advantage of faster burst, killing normal / strongs a GCD sooner, so you take less damage.

2. Hard PvE: You're busy trying to live against the 3 elites you're trying to solo, so Riposte begins to interfere with your rotation.

3. Raid PvE: You don't get many chances to Riposte at all, so the discussion is moot. It should remain on your bar though so when it happens to be up while you swap target to the Mind Trap, you can blow it the **** up as fast as possible.

 

And, as already noted, Riposte fares the poorest in the context of Combat at high levels. For other specs, it's pretty clearly a Good Idea.

 

The joys of theorycrafting when a class is in its infancy. I've been thoroughly spoiled when it comes to being a Sentinel: I rolled as a Fury warrior in That Other MMO Which Shall Not Be Named, and Combat basically looks and plays like Fury with the added benefit that none of its core rotational abilities are proc-based, so I've never really had to wade out into the fever swamps of experimentation. (Should've gone Marauder, though, just so that I could still have to build Rage.) I'll certainly agree that you get more mileage out of it based on your spec and your level: Riposte was my best friend on Tython. Alas, we parted company somewhere on Balmorra.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Juumanistra
Fixed tag derping.

[Naroga]

Pretty sure you don't get 10% extra damage after every BR.

 

1: "Your Ataru Form hits have a 30% chance to make your next rage spender deal 10% more damage".

 

2: Both sequences have the same 9 Ataru procs. Zzz.

 

 

 

 

Additional focus spenders such as ... ?

 

I spent the same amount of focus in both models.

 

 

 

 

Higher force crit rates? Blade Rush has a higher crit rate than Riposte? Since when? Total number of Blade Rushes (and fewer Strikes) is the tradeoff for using Riposte.

 

 

 

 

I factored in the 30% crit damage for Blade Rush by bumping the sample BR damage from 1k to 1.1k. A general nominal BR at level for a fully geared 120-ish rating (tier 1 raid - Tionese, don't remember what the exact rating was) is going to sit at 30% crit or so (35% in a raid). A non-crit non-precision strike'd BR is going to hit for around 800. 800 at a 35% crit rate with a 1.9x crit multiplier is going to land at 1052 damage on average.

 

The "force moves", by which you mean Storm primarily, already has that factored in, unless you think you can hit 2800 Blade Storms without PS in Tionese-ish gear. Ataru procs are irrelevant since you get about the same number of procs between both sequences. Even if they were relevant, I tooltip about 285. I suppose if I factor in armor and modify for average crit, I could bump them all to 300. This doesn't change the result since both sequences end up with 9 Ataru procs (Riposte sequence because you get in more actual attacks, no-Riposte because you get more 100% chance Ataru procs on BRs).

 

 

 

 

Indeed, but I wouldn't go so far as to say useless. When you're dumping with full Combat, you basically have alternate rotations for "PRECISION STRIKE PREP" to build focus while maintaining the BR buff, and then "PRECISION + ZEN PREP" so you can dump hard when you use both cooldowns.

 

For the other 40% of the fight, however, Riposte comes into play. Note that this gets into "what the **** kind of fight are we discussing?".

 

1. General PvE: Against trash mobs Riposte has the additional advantage of faster burst, killing normal / strongs a GCD sooner, so you take less damage.

2. Hard PvE: You're busy trying to live against the 3 elites you're trying to solo, so Riposte begins to interfere with your rotation.

3. Raid PvE: You don't get many chances to Riposte at all, so the discussion is moot. It should remain on your bar though so when it happens to be up while you swap target to the Mind Trap, you can blow it the **** up as fast as possible.

 

 

And, as already noted, Riposte fares the poorest in the context of Combat at high levels. For other specs, it's pretty clearly a Good Idea.

 

This makes me feel better, knowing somebody has at least put some thought into Riposte.

 

So, the second I push the button, the damage is dealt and I don't have to worry about clipping the animation?

[RamzaBehoulve]

Pretty sure you don't get 10% extra damage after every BR.

 

1: "Your Ataru Form hits have a 30% chance to make your next rage spender deal 10% more damage".

 

It's 100% chance with 2 pts and Ataru proc can go off twice with a BR hit.

 

I swear people should stop looking at outdated websites and just log in their Sentinel before theorycrafting.

[Pitchwife]

Disclaimer: newbie.

 

Do we care at all that Riposte is no-miss, no-block? Or do high-level builds get their accuracy up so high that this is a negligible benefit...?

[Naroga]

Disclaimer: newbie.

 

Do we care at all that Riposte is no-miss, no-block? Or do high-level builds get their accuracy up so high that this is a negligible benefit...?

 

This is a good question. However, it will not matter in raiding since ideally you will not get attacked.

 

In PvP it may make a difference, but I'm not sure what the natural dodge/parry rating is for players.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Naroga

[MagicmanNC]

In Combat spec I used it during the early levels, but my advice would be to get out of the habit of using it ASAP, as there are much better things to spend 3 focus on.

[Kytea]

What is the visual cue that Riposte has proc'd ?

[Dynellen]

It's a decent ability at lower levels but once you start getting better focus spenders and talents that lower ability costs it becomes worse and worse. I removed it from my bar at around level 30, it just costs too much focus in PvE to be worth it. At 40+ you're comparing 2 focus blade rush to 3 focus riposte and it just isn't worth it, yes once in a blue moon you might want to spend the extra focus to give immediate off the GCD burst.

 

Also in PvP there's no bloody way I can afford the focus to use it, since interrupting, slowing, stunning etc all takes focus every point becomes important and I'd much rather blade rush than riposte.

[Edmorte]

3 focus, bugged GCD, med dps.

 

NO! Save the slot in the bar.

[Fryseboks]

Depends obviously.

 

Perhaps not in a "omg l33tz0r max dps" cycle, but I throw it in every now and then when I have the focus and want to kill the guy quick. Pretty much only use it versus normal or silver mobs tho.

[Dredknut]

If you use it diligently like someone suggests...might be worth it, but personnally in over 10 Warzones, it never got me a kill and in a world of only 2 skill bars at the bottom, there is no way in hell I'm wasting a slot on this.

 

These are my thoughts exactly. The fact that it is off the GCD would ultimately net you a DPS increase as long as you don't starve yourself of focus for your regular rotation, which shouldn't be a problem for Watchman Sents.

 

However, I find with the amount of abilities we have and the mediocre damage Riposte does I don't have room for it on my bars. I find myself using other abilities that seem to do more damage in situations where I can afford to dump some force.