Please.come to PTS forum, BW is trying to gut the game we know

[Nathan_Hanefort]

Once again the game will be dumbed down in 7.0. All that talk about "choose any combat style" sounded too good. They will force you to choose 1 from some core abilities we lived and played since the begining, not add more new animations instead to choose from. Just go and read Guardian topic on PTS forums..

 

If we wount step up now, we will have WoW for casuals vol. 2.0.

[Tsillah]

BW always starts with the "good news" and then little by little you find out the bad news.

[omaan]

Once again the game will be dumbed down in 7.0. All that talk about "choose any combat style" sounded too good. They will force you to choose 1 from some core abilities we lived and played since the begining, not add more new animations instead to choose from. Just go and read Guardian topic on PTS forums..

 

If we wount step up now, we will have WoW for casuals vol. 2.0.

 

Yeah, i totally lost hope in current developers. They just have no idea what this game needs. Uprisings and team ranked are dead and full of bot users, no new classes since game release, buggs are either not fixed at all or being fixed way too slow, credit sellers are getting richer while inflation is increasing drastically.

 

Meanwhile, instead of fixing things i mentioned above, devs are gutting current old classes to make them dumb, easier and more similar than they already are. After pts i feel Nothing except confusion, facepalm and lost of hope. I know that dissapearance of few abiltiies was not intended but they still dumping and gutting classes to make them even more streamlined than before

[Damask_Rose]

Wow, I haven't seen changes so universally hated in a long time! As someone who enjoys tanking, the ability prune sounds pretty bad. No interrupt or stun break? Surely that's not intended. Half the dcds removed? Why? Just why? We need a lot more communication about what is going on and why.

[Lord_Malganus]

Not surprising at all. Their dumbing it down so its easier for them to "maintain". Edited July 12, 2021 by Lord_Malganus

[Alssaran]

No interrupt or stun break? Surely that's not intended.

 

It's not. They merely aren't implemented yet. Other abilities are referencing them.

 

This is why most companies keep their PTS for new expansions under an NDA for such a long time. There's multiple "work in progress" signs hanging out, yet people are already losing their marbles. It's like seeing a placeholder model in alpha and going: "I can't believe Blizzard is selling us static white models as NPCs! What a waste!"

Edited July 12, 2021 by Alssaran

[Viraxis]

It's not. They merely aren't implemented yet. Other abilities are referencing them.

 

This is why most companies keep their PTS for new expansions under an NDA for such a long time. There's multiple "work in progress" signs hanging out, yet people are already losing their marbles. It's like seeing a placeholder model in alpha and going: "I can't believe Blizzard is selling us static white models as NPCs! What a waste!"

 

All it would take to shut down all the negative hate would be for a dev to confirm or deny that the items missing are coming back in one form or another or to state they aren't simplifying things by removing abilities.

[Darth-Obvious]

not add more new animations instead to choose from.

 

The idea that or notion that they were going to add a bunch of new animations to make this all work was always ridiculous. What based on this game's existing history would make anyone think they would do something like that? The sheer volume of animations that they'd need to add, redo, adjust, etc, would be overwhelming.

[casirabit]

The best idea is go to the PTS and test it yourself. While I have a few questions, I actually tested Vilgence with Load out A and I was able to do what I am used to doing with my Vilgence guardian on line. Of course, I made sure I went and got the gear I am used to so I could test it against the gear I have on that character.

 

There are a few abilities missing but as they also stated this is the first phase. They have stated "This round of PTS is a high-level first look at the Jedi Guardian, so it’s not a super deep dive, and there is a limitation on what will be available to play and customize at this time. While you will be able to see the full scope of customization of the Jedi Guardian in a later PTS, you will only be offered default choices for this initial phase. " (https://www.swtor.com/info/news/article/20210708)

 

While it is okay to let them know about the missing abilities, we also need to remember this is the first phase and therefore changes can and most likely will still occur.

[goldladin]

It's not. They merely aren't implemented yet. Other abilities are referencing them.

 

This is why most companies keep their PTS for new expansions under an NDA for such a long time. There's multiple "work in progress" signs hanging out, yet people are already losing their marbles. It's like seeing a placeholder model in alpha and going: "I can't believe Blizzard is selling us static white models as NPCs! What a waste!"

 

That statement can be dismissed in two directions. One, there hasn't yet been an official statement from bioware confirming whether or not ANY of this is intended. Then there's the second one, which is, maybe they didn't alter the abilities descriptions referencing the current ones available now to fit the new way the class is supposed to play, which can be read either way..... People losing their marbles right now is justified because nobody asked for this.

[Alssaran]

That statement can be dismissed in two directions. One, there hasn't yet been an official statement from bioware confirming whether or not ANY of this is intended.

 

There are abilities referencing these missing abilities and even new 7.0 passives that modify Dispatch, Combat Focus and Unleash. Hence, even without an official statement stating to the contrary, the current indication is that these abilities will be in the game as it currently stands. Otherwise Bioware would not have designed passives to modify them.

 

Then there's the second one, which is, maybe they didn't alter the abilities descriptions referencing the current ones available now to fit the new way the class is supposed to play, which can be read either way.

 

This is a redundant argument because you're essentially just saying: "I'm going to be outraged despite the evidence because I believe they don't mean anything!" And even if we're leaving that out: as I said, Bioware wouldn't have designed new passives modifying them if there was no intention for them to return.

 

People losing their marbles right now is justified because nobody asked for this.

 

I didn't ask for this. But now that a class rework is on the table, I'm sure as hell not going to say no.

[Ramalina]

So if we're forming a mob over the "loss" of Guardian abilities, is that going to be a joint effort for waving torches and pitchforks about the removal of Speeder riding skill levels: 2, 3, 4, and 5 or does someone need to start a new thread to prematurely freak out about that?

 

It might require extra agitation for the mount speeds issue, because unlike the Guardian abilities, we have no written information from the devs that they plan on bringing the faster mount speeds back.

 

[ceryxp]

So if we're forming a mob over the "loss" of Guardian abilities, is that going to be a joint effort for waving torches and pitchforks about the removal of Speeder riding skill levels: 2, 3, 4, and 5 or does someone need to start a new thread to prematurely freak out about that?

 

It might require extra agitation for the mount speeds issue, because unlike the Guardian abilities, we have no written information from the devs that they plan on bringing the faster mount speeds back.

 

 

What? How can they do this?! This is outrageous! It's unfair! How can you be on a speeder and not go faster?!

[Rion_Starkiller]

DOOOOOOOOOOM

The end is nigh

Edited July 12, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller

[JCDenton]

There's multiple "work in progress" signs hanging out, yet people are already losing their marbles.

 

It's foolish to chastise people for judging what they can see and play, rather than judging what Bioware might/possibly/maybe/could do. Feedback and opinions should be based on experience, not wishful thinking and dreams.

Edited July 13, 2021 by JCDenton

[ceryxp]

Hey hey! Yeah, I haven't seen you in a while.

 

SWTOR wasn't really cutting it for me anymore so I've been playing path of Exile, and just catching the story on YouTube for SWTOR.

 

But if they can execute it right, this profession rebalance and skill culling has me interested in coming back.

 

I resubbed the test on PTS. I will probably end up still sticking with Poe for a few more leagues but when they go live in December with this, I'll give it a spin and if it's as good as I think it's going to be I'll Stick around.

 

Welcome (sorta) back.

 

I have not been able to download PTS, metered connection, but from what I have been reading of the stuff that is being posted to Reddit this combat stance revamp sounds almost like a partial return to the old skill trees. Certainly this will not afford nearly as much customizability as the skill trees, but it will allow us to move away from the cookie-cutter classes we have had since moving to the discipline trees.

 

I think that this update is going to force some tough choices upon people, and losing some of the abilities that we have become accustomed to will be a little painful, but I think this change opens up some interesting possibilities for character builds. One example, at level 15 a Guardian would have to choose between one ability and two passives. Do they choose, for example, the tried and true Saber Throw, or maybe they take Blade Burst, which is basically adding Freezing Force to Blade Storm and makes it a conal AOE? I am certain that before long the number crunching theorycrafters will have determined exactly which choices to make for the most DPS, but since having top DPS is not necessary in most content the possibility will remain for some minor customization. We will not all be using the exact same tool kit any longer with our only choices being in choosing from a small selection of passives (utilities).

 

Whereas I once viewed this change with trepidation I am now very cautiously optimistic.

[CheesyEZ]

No interrupt or stun break? .

 

wait...wut? can I get...like...multiple confirmations on this? it sounds too idiotic to be true. like the guy who saw it misread something maybe?

[Phazonfreak]

wait...wut? can I get...like...multiple confirmations on this? it sounds too idiotic to be true. like the guy who saw it misread something maybe?

 

Yes, they are not included in the current build. As BioWare tried to prepare us on the PTS forum, this version of the Jedi Knight is a barebone Dummy with many abilities missing and severely limited loadouts that are supposed to become more flexible in future iterations.

 

Naturally, that didn't prevent several members of the community here to completely lose their minds and to cry Armageddon, like they all just witnessed the finished product of how Combat Styles will work almost 6 months before the release of the expansion.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Phazonfreak

[ZionHalcyon]

Welcome (sorta) back.

 

I have not been able to download PTS, metered connection, but from what I have been reading of the stuff that is being posted to Reddit this combat stance revamp sounds almost like a partial return to the old skill trees. Certainly this will not afford nearly as much customizability as the skill trees, but it will allow us to move away from the cookie-cutter classes we have had since moving to the discipline trees.

 

I think that this update is going to force some tough choices upon people, and losing some of the abilities that we have become accustomed to will be a little painful, but I think this change opens up some interesting possibilities for character builds. One example, at level 15 a Guardian would have to choose between one ability and two passives. Do they choose, for example, the tried and true Saber Throw, or maybe they take Blade Burst, which is basically adding Freezing Force to Blade Storm and makes it a conal AOE? I am certain that before long the number crunching theorycrafters will have determined exactly which choices to make for the most DPS, but since having top DPS is not necessary in most content the possibility will remain for some minor customization. We will not all be using the exact same tool kit any longer with our only choices being in choosing from a small selection of passives (utilities).

 

Whereas I once viewed this change with trepidation I am now very cautiously optimistic.

 

I agree this has that potential, but really it is going to depend 100% on the execution, and I would understand people's lack of faith in BioWare for that.

 

 

So the way it seems like the breakdown is as such, using tech as an example:

 

Bounty Hunter/Trooper/Agent/Smuggler:

 

• Mercenary
  
  • Bodyguard
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Arsenal

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Innovative Ordinance

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

• Powertech
  
  • Shield Tech
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Advanced Prototype

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Pyrotech

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

  [*]Sniper

  • Marksmanship
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Engineering

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Virulence

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

  [*]Operative

  • Medicine
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Concealment

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Lethality

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

  [*]Commando

  • Combat Medic
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Gunnery

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Assault Specialist

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

  [*]Vanguard

  • Shield Specialist
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Tactics

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Plasmatech

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

  [*]Gunslinger

  • Sharpshooter
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Saboteur

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Dirty Fighting

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

  [*]Scoundrel

  • Sawbones
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Scrapper

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Ruffian

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

 

 

So typically, each of those skill trees (now loadouts) would have 2 unique abilities in the existing skill tree system.

What they NEED to do, is instead keep all those abilities in those loadouts, but then take the existing abilities that each advanced class gets, and I would go even as far as the primary class as well, and divide ALL those skills among the different loadouts. There certainly IS enough abilities to do that. Leave 3-4 abilities that you keep with the primary class, preferably ones that do NOT feed into tacticals or set bonuses.

 

And now because all the tech classes can pick among the advanced classes, there is ZERO need to MIRROR classes any more (like how BH Arsenal and Commando Gunnery mirror each other, or Smuggler Gunslinger and Agent Sniper mirror). As such, as the abilities are divided up, thought should go into which abilities go where, and make each and every load out/skill tree FEEL different.

 

This also means that abilities will need to be adjusted - each loadout only getting a few abilities, and perhaps a certain grouping that achieves what I mentioned above in making it feel like a unique playstyle is comprised of abilities that originally were all complimentary, minor abilities that were never meant to be the main source of whatever the class was trying to do (heal, dps, tank, crowd control, etc). In that case, better to keep those abilities together, and buff them to be on par with other groupings, rather than say opt for a much more generic loadout by having big time abilities cross over multiple loadouts - if you are going to do that, then what the hell is the point of all the work for loadouts anyway?

 

That's the main issue with what's going on with PTS right now - you STILL have too many abilities as a guardian, regardless of loadout, and even what you get as a result of the loadout right now specific to that loadout hasn't been balanced.

 

So right now PTS Guardian feels more like a "class nerf" with the removal of a small handful of abilities, rather than really leaning into the loadout idea and making it feel like it is REALLY worth it.

 

But the SHELL of the system to achieve what I mentioned how it should go IS there. It all depends really on how much work the developers want to put into makign each loadout feel unique, and also rebalancing each loadout with the game properly, and finally being up front with the player base what each loadout play style is SUPPOSED to achieve.

 

Make no mistake - if they only are looking to make the advanced class feel different, then there is ZERO reason for loadouts - I can tell you right now that the 3 different Jedi Guardian classes on PTS all felt roughly the same - it really didn't matter much what you picked - it all felt too similar to what we already have minus a few abilities.

 

So I am curious just how well BioWare handles this. There is a unique opportunity to take all the abilities already in the game and give a really deep, diverse loadout system (even with each loadout having 1/3 of the abilities of what we have now), or if they are just going to pay lip service to it and end up half-assing it like only BioWare can do (don't get me started on the half-assed Manaan Stronghold....)

 

We will see what happens. They certainly got time to do this right....

[Senden]

Downloaded it and tested it for an hourand that was about as much as I can stomach. Ability pruning is not the way, ask Blizzard how well that was received, WoW refugees became a thing and Square Enix happily gobbled them up and FF14 now has more active subscribers than WoW. Hopefully the backlash on the forums will effect the direction they go in and they go back on some of the current ability prunes but from what I experienced I'm just going to go out and say it, older mmorpg fans will understand what i mean but in it's current implementation this is the NGE of SWTOR.

[DarkTergon]

Downloaded it and tested it for an hourand that was about as much as I can stomach. Ability pruning is not the way, ask Blizzard how well that was received, WoW refugees became a thing and Square Enix happily gobbled them up and FF14 now has more active subscribers than WoW. Hopefully the backlash on the forums will effect the direction they go in and they go back on some of the current ability prunes but from what I experienced I'm just going to go out and say it, older mmorpg fans will understand what i mean but in it's current implementation this is the NGE of SWTOR.

 

a lot of people have gone to FF14 from many games, started playing it recently myself, they lots of servers, and have ques to get in, not surprised they've over taken WoW.

I don't know if what they are doing here is good or bad, as it's still early testing, we've no idea what way things will go.

But I did try it, and didn't like it, so hoping they've more to it than what we see.

[TrixxieTriss]

I’m wondering if the ability pruning is to help with desync or so each combat class has the same amount of load abilities to prevent the UI breaking or causing bugs when people switch load outs or combat styles

 

It would help if we understood their reason for pruning abilities. Then people testing could provide better feed back in the right context. So far I think the lack of reasoning is causing most of the anguish players are having.

 

My personal concern is they are trying to fix perfomance and are targeting the wrong sort of abilities. For instance if the reason is to reduce desync and improve perfomance, then why prune DCD/interrupt abilities instead of abilities that cause the desync, like speed/mobility abilities or mez/stun abilities.

 

If it’s for another reason like all classes having the same number of abilities, then there will be some concern from players like snipers, etc, who have a lot more abilities than say and Assassin who has the least amount of abilities (Probably not the best example as ones tech and ones force)

 

At the moment I feel we are in the dark too much to understand their changes. So I’m reserving my judgment till we get some more info or another iteration of the PTS.

 

But I would really appreciate it if Bioware could provide more info and answer some of the questions I’ve posed because I think it would help with the sort of feed back we give when testing. Knowing what their goal is with the changes will affect how people provide that feed back.

[SavantDreadtech]

While all your fears may turn out to be correct OP, it is also far to early to say. A PTS build is just that, a test. It may not include everything, everything is subject to change.

 

I personally think this is a step in the wrong direction, so over all not happy about it, but still far to soon for this kind of thread.

[xordevoreaux]

It's not. They merely aren't implemented yet.

Which is a good bit of the angst spewed on the forums right there, if the people vomiting up drama about it stopped to think about it (not holding my breath on that one).

 

Players screaming to the high heavens about these changes are looking at a half-baked roll-out of an initial release already advertised by Bioware as incomplete.

 

I'm not saying there's no room to disagree with what Bioware is doing, but If Bioware wanted a better reception to the game changes, they shouldn't have invited such drama by presenting to the players something to test that's not well curated.

Edited July 13, 2021 by xordevoreaux

[ceryxp]

I agree this has that potential, but really it is going to depend 100% on the execution, and I would understand people's lack of faith in BioWare for that.

 

 

So the way it seems like the breakdown is as such, using tech as an example:

 

Bounty Hunter/Trooper/Agent/Smuggler:

 

• Mercenary
  
  • Bodyguard
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

 

The whole A loadout / B loadout thing is only for this PTS test. Refer to the original announcement.

 

The way combat styles will work is that every few levels, players will have one of the following occur:

• Receive a new ability
  
• Choose from 1 of 3 abilities
  
• Choose from 1 of 3 passives
  
• Choose from 1 of 3 passives or abilities
  

 

*Levels tied to ability grants in PTS are not set in stone and subject to change*

*The A and B markers indicate the two ability path options that are chosen for this phase of PTS. *

 

~Level 10 - Gain Ability

• 
  
• Focused Burst - Single target burst damage ability.

~Level 15 - Choose one ability or passive

• 
  
• Blade Burst - Blade Storm becomes AoE and slows.
  
• Saber Throw - Gain the Saber Throw Ability.
  
• [A] Energy Barrage - Adds Energy Damage to Blade Barrage and it now immobilizes the target.

 

In the final version, if the ability distribution and levels remain the same, it will not be that Guardian A gets Energy Barrage at level 15, whilst Guardian B gets Blade Burst, and no one gets Saber Throw. Someone who goes Guardian would choose at level 15 from amongst all three. The interface for selecting abilities and showing the passives is not yet implemented, so they created two loadouts, A and B, for people to choose from.

Edited July 13, 2021 by ceryxp