Why I'm done with PvP

[JediMasterAlex]

I can appreciate what they want to accomplish, but being locked out because you got roll bugged and couldn't move is ridiculous. They have to end this experiment.

 

You guys are free to hate these changes and advocate for reversing them all you want. I just wanted to clarify that the changes have nothing to do with ranked or ranked players like some on these forums claimed.

[supertimtaf]

I can appreciate what they want to accomplish, but being locked out because you got roll bugged and couldn't move is ridiculous. They have to end this experiment.

 

Well this issue could be solved by fixing said bug.

It's frustrating, and happened to me more than once.

But I don't think that the lockout timer "IS" the problem here. More like the bugs around it.

 

Lockout timer could be fine if everything around it worked fine. Sadly, we cannot say that.

[EllieAnne]

So Jackie. It's been a while. Any updates?

[AlrikFassbauer]

I can appreciate what they want to accomplish, but being locked out because you got roll bugged and couldn't move is ridiculous. They have to end this experiment.

 

Defending an overpowered class ?

[black_pyros]

I am going to shout it from the roof tops until the cows come home. You should never allow premade to queue against solo players. It’s a disease in every game that allows it.

I can shout the Earth is flat, but it won't make the Earth even a tiny bit flattier. Saying that premades cause a problem is like saying that hitting 'queue as a group' button suddenly makes players better. Like hitting a single button can turn a noob into a skilled veteran. In reality, there is no such a button. Many players are seeing and experiencing skill disbalance and they wrongly call it premade vs PuG issue.

 

To anyone that still believes that separating premades from solo players would magically solve the issues of said solo players caused by skill disparity, I want to say, SWTOR already has a gamemode that prevents premades from participating.

 

Despite what premade blamers may think this gamemode is not a paradise filled with unicorns and love, where unprepared and unskilled solo player can enjoy the beauty of a wonderful ride where everything is great just because the experience there is not spoiled by the filthy premades.

 

In this gamemode everyone has to accept the bitter truth, that experienced players even when queued solo can cooperate well enough and still can and absolutely will stomp anyone that has skill issues and is unprepared. They don't need premade for that.

 

This truth is being shown there repeatedly over and over and over again pretty much on a daily basis. No one there can queue in premade. Every single player there queues as solo. Every. Single. One. I believe everyone already knows what mode I speak about, but anyone still wondering hit the spoiler button. The gamemode is called:

 

Solo Ranked

 

So if you lose a game, chance is you lost because your team as a whole had worse skill, experience, desire to win, whatever...; than enemy team. The same applies no matter if there was a premade involved or not or if there was a premade in enemy team or in your team or any combination of these.

 

So for those that don't like to lose games or want to improve your experience in games, blaming or banning premades won't help you. Only two things can possibly help you. Either practice and gain skill so instead of being the one carried become one that carries others or just wait until developers

 

#banskill

Edited February 3, 2021 by black_pyros

[black_pyros]

As for DCing, well bud, you don’t live on the other side of the world or have to deal with crappy ping. You probably have really good internet where you are and might even live near the servers for all we know. That doesn’t mean everyone has your experience, the same as you don’t have ours. A little empathy from you towards other player’s situations wouldn’t go astray here.

Empathy. A funny thing. I often see others playing the empathy card without them realizing, it's actually a bidirectional thing.

 

Let me explain. Instanced PvP in SWTOR is a team based content, which means my actions (intentional or unintentional) have possible impact on 7-15 other players in every match. If my connection is so bad that I often get lag spikes or disconnects, that sucks. Asking others, why they are not empathetic to me, why they don't understand I live in a region with a bad connection to game servers, isn't the correct question to ask. They probably do understand that anyway.

 

I believe, the more correct and empathetic question to ask here would be: What makes me so special that my bad connection should not affect only my enjoyment, but also the enjoyment of 15 different players that are negatively affected by my constant disconnects? Or what wrong did they possibly do in their lives to be even slightly responsible for what region I live in or its bad connectivity?

Edited February 2, 2021 by black_pyros

[SVTCarnage]

Why I’m Done With PvP Chronicles

26 pages

Buy Physical Edition $5.00

Digital Edition is Free!

[black_pyros]

Why I’m Done With PvP Chronicles

26 pages

Buy Physical Edition $5.00

Digital Edition is Free!

Definitely a bestseller. I hope I get my royalties for participation in this thread.

[EllieAnne]

To anyone that still believes that separating premades from solo players would magically solve the issues of said solo players caused by skill disparity, I want to say, SWTOR already has a gamemode that prevents premades from participating.

 

I know a few may have said that but I think most are saying a player should not finish a PvP warzone with no reward based on the disparity between premade and soloists.

[snave]

I know a few may have said that but I think most are saying a player should not finish a PvP warzone with no reward based on the disparity between premade and soloists.

 

You are equally as likely to placed with a premade as against. Your rewards will be based on your free win and free loss, so average.

 

People here make out they're poor well intentioned regs players who just want to earn gear through PvP! It's not even remotely true, sometimes you win sometimes you lose that is literally how PvP works. As people keep saying there are better methods of gaining gear so do those if you're desperate for more ilvls but please stop lying about how every game you play ever consists of premades stomping pugs and setting puppies on fire.

[sithBracer]

You are equally as likely to placed with a premade as against.

 

also

 

I mentioned in another thread that I'm not sure how matchmaking is working atm. Ideally it would be premade vs premade but I think anyone pretending to know how it works is clutching at straws. It could be better for sure.

 

I must have gotten really unlucky because I got matched up against the same premade 7/7 times when I was solo queueing last week. And 4/4 times before that against a different one, and 5/5 before that and 3/3 before that. I pretty much stopped solo queueing at this point.

Edited February 2, 2021 by sithBracer

[snave]

also

 

 

 

I must have gotten really unlucky because I got matched up against the same premade 7/7 times when I was solo queueing last week. And 4/4 times before that against a different one, and 5/5 before that and 3/3 before that. I pretty much stopped solo queueing at this point.

 

Maybe wait 30s before queueing?

[sithBracer]

Maybe wait 30s before queueing?

 

But there's a 50/50 chance I get put on their team as well no? And sometimes it was in lowbies where not too many people are queueing, so waiting 30s does nothing.

[Ld-Siris]

You are equally as likely to placed with a premade as against. Your rewards will be based on your free win and free loss, so average.

 

I mostly agree with everything you have said over the last dozen pages because it aligns with my experiences. And I would argue the same points you have made. Except for this one. I both solo que and premade que depending on the availability of the people I play with. And 9 times out of 10, when there is only 1 premade in que, I get put on the opposite team. This is also the same from what other players have told me when they solo que.

 

Now we know from the 5.9.2 patch notes, along with additional comments Eric made, that match making looks inside a premade and finds the highest hidden “skill score” and applies it to all members of that premade. Now the whole notes makes it sound like this is for sorting out premade against each other but it seems to be a placing this logic to the solo players as well. So if you have 1 premade in que that has 4 members, all 4 members are going to have the same “skill score” based of the highest member. It then seems like it tries to balance that out by looking at the different solo players in que and puts them on the other team to balance it out. Now it’s hard to say what exact logic the matchmaker is following to do this but it is apparent there are groups of players that usually end up against the premade and another group that ends up with the premade.

 

Admittedly, a factor is I’m on SS and it’s population is much lower than both SF and DM. So I have a much smaller sample size.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Ld-Siris

[sithBracer]

I mostly agree with everything you have said over the last dozen pages because it aligns with my experiences. And I would argue the same points you have made. Except for this one. I both solo que and premade que depending on the availability of the people I play with. And 9 times out of 10, when there is only 1 premade in que, I get put on the opposite team. This is also the same from what other players have told me when they solo que.

 

Now we know from the 5.9.2 patch notes, along with additional comments Eric made, that match making looks inside a premade and finds the highest hidden “skill score” and applies it to all members of that premade. Now the whole notes makes it sound like this is for sorting out premade against each other but it seems to be a placing this logic to the solo players as well. So if you have 1 premade in que that has 4 members, all 4 members are going to have the same “skill score” based of the highest member. It then seems like it tries to balance that out by looking at the different solo players in que and puts them on the other team to balance it out. Now it’s hard to say what exact logic the matchmaker is following to do this but it is apparent there are groups of players that usually end up against the premade and another group that ends up with the premade.

 

Admittedly, a factor is I’m on SS and it’s population is much lower than both SF and DM. So I have a much smaller sample size.

 

awwwwww, why'd you tell him? I wanted to see if he was able to figure it out for himself.

Edited February 3, 2021 by sithBracer

[TrixxieTriss]

I mostly agree with everything you have said over the last dozen pages because it aligns with my experiences. And I would argue the same points you have made. Except for this one. I both solo que and premade que depending on the availability of the people I play with. And 9 times out of 10, when there is only 1 premade in que, I get put on the opposite team. This is also the same from what other players have told me when they solo que.

 

Now we know from the 5.9.2 patch notes, along with additional comments Eric made, that match making looks inside a premade and finds the highest hidden “skill score” and applies it to all members of that premade. Now the whole notes makes it sound like this is for sorting out premade against each other but it seems to be a placing this logic to the solo players as well. So if you have 1 premade in que that has 4 members, all 4 members are going to have the same “skill score” based of the highest member. It then seems like it tries to balance that out by looking at the different solo players in que and puts them on the other team to balance it out. Now it’s hard to say what exact logic the matchmaker is following to do this but it is apparent there are groups of players that usually end up against the premade and another group that ends up with the premade.

 

Admittedly, a factor is I’m on SS and it’s population is much lower than both SF and DM. So I have a much smaller sample size.

 

That’s been my experience too. Especially in a low population environment.

 

I’ve even tested in lowbie arenas with my wife grouped with me. She is no where near my skill lvl, so our premade is a prime example of being unbalanced skill wise.

What I noticed is the same 4-5 solo players would always be put against us, regardless of how many times we popped. But as soon as we degrouped, the queue would rotate through us all backwards and forwards and mix up the teams more.

When there were 8-10 people actually in the queue, it would match make better when we weren’t grouped. The only reason we grouped to start with was so I could hold her hand through it and give advice. In the end, it worked out better for everyone in the queue (including us) if we degrouped

Edited February 3, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[black_pyros]

I know a few may have said that but I think most are saying a player should not finish a PvP warzone with no reward based on the disparity between premade and soloists.

If you just replaced the 'disparity between premade and soloists' with 'disparity between more and less skilled/experienced' I could sympathize with that. After all, it's only regs and every PvP mode is designed in a way, where in every single match 50% of players are going to lose no matter what, so why not give some rewards for participating.

 

But the participation is the crucial thing there. The players actually must participate and try to win... no afkers in corners, no deathmatchers in middle of nowhere. I even created a thread with ideas how to improve regs, and yes I suggested there to give some rewards for participation, but only after their redesign the objective points/medal system to better reflect who is participating and who is not.

[Aricin]

I can shout the Earth is flat, but it won't make the Earth even a tiny bit flattier. Saying that premades cause a problem is like saying that hitting 'queue as a group' button suddenly makes players better. Like hitting a single button can turn a noob into a skilled veteran. In reality, there is no such a button. Many players are seeing and experiencing skill disbalance and they wrongly call it premade vs PuG issue.

 

To anyone that still believes that separating premades from solo players would magically solve the issues of said solo players caused by skill disparity, I want to say, SWTOR already has a gamemode that prevents premades from participating.

 

Despite what premade blamers may think this gamemode is not a paradise filled with unicorns and love, where unprepared and unskilled solo player can enjoy the beauty of a wonderful ride where everything is great just because the experience there is not spoiled by the filthy premades.

 

In this gamemode everyone has to accept the bitter truth, that experienced players even when queued solo can cooperate well enough and still can and absolutely will stomp anyone that has skill issues and is unprepared. They don't need premade for that.

 

This truth is being shown there repeatedly over and over and over again pretty much on a daily basis. No one there can queue in premade. Every single player there queues as solo. Every. Single. One. I believe everyone already knows what mode I speak about, but anyone still wondering hit the spoiler button. The gamemode is called:

 

Solo Ranked

 

So if you lose a game, chance is you lost because your team as a whole had worse skill, experience, desire to win, whatever...; than enemy team. The same applies no matter if there was a premade involved or not or if there was a premade in enemy team or in your team or any combination of these.

 

So for those that don't like to lose games or want to improve your experience in games, blaming or banning premades won't help you. Only two things can possibly help you. Either practice and gain skill so instead of being the one carried become one that carries others or just wait until developers

 

#banskill

 

Did anything i posted gave the impression that what mode is available in ranked is relevant? And this was an argument in relation to the main point of this thread. Further, we have new threads in this forum almost every day about how losses are "rewarded" in regular. Note regular - not ranked. And as I argued a number of times SWtoR is a casual game for casual gamers. And pre mades in regular are often - not always - toxic.

 

There are plenty of premades that do NOT play objectives but go into a match with the objective to farm kills and nothing more. BW messed up system allows them to win those matches 99% of the time despite not playing objectives.

 

Games and modus within live and die with their population. And those "toxic" premades combined with losses not being rewarded actively drive players away from this mode. Especially when other modus' within the game are more rewarding - GSF for example. Why do losses count towards daily / weekly? I would like an active PvP population because I enjoy the game modus and want new players to stick with it so they do get better, play smartly and objectives and show up decently geared. But please keep ignoring the obvious problems and population decline

[black_pyros]

Did anything i posted gave the impression that what mode is available in ranked is relevant?

It may not be relevant to you however SR is a proof, that experienced players don't need to queue in a premade to be able to absolutely own unskilled an unprepared opponents. Because of that, banning premades is not the solution for skill issues of some solo players.

 

If you just ban premades from regs, it won't stop experienced players from queueing there solo and continuing to do whatever they please to make the experience of any unskilled soloer miserable. Instead of banning premades, you would need to ban skill. And that's something that is both impossible and ridiculous to do.

 

There are plenty of premades that do NOT play objectives but go into a match with the objective to farm kills and nothing more.

I absolutely despise PvO players no matter if they queue in premade or solo. I think it's not right to use this phenomenon as an argument against premades as not every premade is like that and not every PvO player queues in premade either.

 

But I must be clear here, their TDM attitude simply doesn't belong to objective based maps. While deathmatching in the right place is nothing wrong, as it often creates pressure that helps to gain objectives, if said pressure is then not followed by objective cap and hold, it's totally irrelevant and pointless.

 

Any real and good objective player can do both: cause pressure and then exploit said pressure to gain advantage in objectives. PvO players just do the first without any intention to ever do the second. That behavior is cancer to every player playing the objective based maps in their intended way.

 

I would say if so many players desire to do 8vs8 TDM only, create new gamemode with separate queue to divide them from objective focused players. Existing objective maps with slight modifications can be used as a template for TDM maps.

 

BW messed up system allows them to win those matches 99% of the time despite not playing objectives.

I don't know how that would even be possible? It's irrelevant how good they are in creating pressure, if they never exploit said pressure to win. You can wipe every enemy around a node/door/ballspawn etc. but if you never cap and hold/score etc. you are going to lose.

 

They can possibly win only if someone else in their team do play objectives, but I don't see a problem there as regs are team-based game and if their teammates decide to carry them to victory then they simply win as expected... And if no one of their teammates carries them (enough) then they simply lose as expected...

 

 

Games and modus within live and die with their population. And those "toxic" premades combined with losses not being rewarded actively drive players away from this mode.

As I said already, I am not against rewarding losses as long as it means rewarding the participation. But it must be an active participation based on desire to win, not afking in corners or doing anything that doesn't contribute to win. For this the current medal system must be reworked to distinguish who is participating and who is not. Then anyone that did not participate enough gets no rewards, no matter if from winner or defeated team. I tried to present example of such a system in details in this thread I created.

 

But please keep ignoring the obvious problems and population decline

I am not ignoring the problems, I am actively presenting solutions to problems while in the same time I am pointing out that the problems of solo players are not caused by existence of premades. On the contrary, I believe premades are an actual solution and not the problem. More premades (with intention to win) participating in regs will lead to better average level of play and more enjoyable experience for everyone including soloers.

Edited February 3, 2021 by black_pyros

[-Bob-]

But I must be clear here, their TDM attitude simply doesn't belong to objective based maps. While deathmatching in the right place is nothing wrong, as it often creates pressure that helps to gain objectives, if said pressure is then not followed by objective cap and hold, it's totally irrelevant and pointless.

This brings up a very good point for strategies.

Lots of experienced players understand this idea while many newer or less experienced players won't get it. They won't see that window to cap the objective, they might not understand that 1 player can be chain CC'd to allow 1 person to cap etc etc...

I'm sure that in some cases these play tactics would be confused with death matching.

[supertimtaf]

There are plenty of premades that do NOT play objectives but go into a match with the objective to farm kills and nothing more. BW messed up system allows them to win those matches 99% of the time despite not playing objectives.

 

Well then maybe add more systems like the one in Hypergate, where you get points for kill (one of the best feature of the map should I say, as I can finally go full ape and hit stuff to win). Then the issue solves itself, as you're actually rewarded for playing decently.

 

On another note, I do agree that farming the same guy who defends his spawn on Novare Coast AND not capping his point is a dumb move, as I've seen numerous peoples already do this. It costs them nothing to click on a blue shiny button while they wait for the poor guy to respawn/get farmed. This behaviour was unknown to me until recently -until two months ago tbh, when I got back- as before, one would usually cap objectives once everybody died.

 

But it seems that with the departure of numerous old ranked/unranked PvP guilds, the overall level of players decreased. Even if they're "good" compared to the rest of the warzone. Maybe because nobody cares about wins anymore, since you don't get much if you win, as gear rewards are bad in unranked (and why need gear in PvP, again, this I don't know).

[Sappharan]

It may not be relevant to you however SR is a proof, that experienced players don't need to queue in a premade to be able to absolutely own unskilled an unprepared opponents. Because of that, banning premades is not the solution for skill issues of some solo players.

 

If you just ban premades from regs, it won't stop experienced players from queueing there solo and continuing to do whatever they please to make the experience of any unskilled soloer miserable. Instead of banning premades, you would need to ban skill. And that's something that is both impossible and ridiculous to do.

 

No, they don't. But it makes it worse when they do. However, I am NOT advocating for premades to go away. I don't want that. What I want is premades to actually A) care about winning and B) stop farming for the sake of farming, as you describe (more or less) below:

 

 

I absolutely despise PvO players no matter if they queue in premade or solo. I think it's not right to use this phenomenon as an argument against premades as not every premade is like that and not every PvO player queues in premade either.

 

But I must be clear here, their TDM attitude simply doesn't belong to objective based maps. While deathmatching in the right place is nothing wrong, as it often creates pressure that helps to gain objectives, if said pressure is then not followed by objective cap and hold, it's totally irrelevant and pointless.

 

Any real and good objective player can do both: cause pressure and then exploit said pressure to gain advantage in objectives. PvO players just do the first without any intention to ever do the second. That behavior is cancer to every player playing the objective based maps in their intended way.

 

Highlighted and bolded portion is what drives me absolutely bonkers. It's obnoxious and despicable.

 

Good post. It is a relief to know someone else finds that behavior as objectionable as I do.

[black_pyros]

No, they don't. But it makes it worse when they do. However, I am NOT advocating for premades to go away. I don't want that. What I want is premades to actually A) care about winning and B) stop farming for the sake of farming, as you describe (more or less) below:

I only wish more players were like you and understood that problem is not existence of premades, but existence of players (no matter if premade or solo) queueing to objectives based maps without intention to win and with the main intention to either:

1.) just farm kills, numbers, etc. and never contribute to objectives or

2.) just go afk in the corner or not contribute until the game is lost to get some effortless rewards.

 

While the second group can be effectively wiped out by removing rewards for losing, the first not so much, it seems. You actually need to rework the system, where you don't decide rewards based just on wins or losses, but also on active participation and then set minimal participation level required to recieve rewards no matter if players are from winner or defeated team.

 

Current medals system doesn't do that, it only sets minimal level required to get maximum rewards and it's based on numbers farming, not playing the objectives. It needs to get reworked to motivate playing the objectives.

 

This will motivate anyone that wants to get rewards to participate in objectives and not only in numbers farming. Together with other stuff like removing damage/protection/heals numbers from scoreboards and making rewards more attractive, be it more credits, cosmetics, etc.

 

For everyone else that does not care about rewards at all, I would say create 8vs8 TDM maps as current 4vs4 TDM maps seems not appealing enough to them, although it's true there is currently no option to queue just for unranked arenas and that may be enough to do. And you should give rewards there, too as many TDM oriented players can still get interested to be rewarded, but they may not like to be forced to do objectives to earn them.

Edited February 4, 2021 by black_pyros

[black_pyros]

Well then maybe add more systems like the one in Hypergate, where you get points for kill (one of the best feature of the map should I say, as I can finally go full ape and hit stuff to win). Then the issue solves itself, as you're actually rewarded for playing decently.

This post is not directed to you as you did not say 'just farm kills' but I would like to emphasize that inexperienced player in AH may think that just farming kills without doing anything else is playing decently while it's not true. All the kills done are for nothing if your team never gets a pylon or you only get a pylon in earlier parts of game when point multiplicator is low.

 

Experienced players do know, that AH si decided on pylons. Either try to get both pylons in each round or at least get one and prevent enemy team to get the other. I am not saying there are not situations where each team gets one pylon and then kills and orbs decide the game, but they are definitelly not the primary means to win there.

 

In 8vs8 ranked, the norm was not to send one player from each team to cap "own" pylon and then go full nuts in mid. The teams pretty much ignored mid and focused on pylons and not the kills so much and they very well knew why.

 

AH was more of a chess game back then with often stalling up to round with x9 multiplicator while trying to do these little moves of CCing or splitting the team right between pylon A and B to get that tiny little advantage of at least having one round with succesful cap while preventing the enemy doing the cap as well, but this chess game was the true beauty of objectives play and not this kill farming mess of current regs hypergate.

Edited February 4, 2021 by black_pyros

[OM-AR]

My experience so far with unranked pvp is whichever team has the most operatives wins.