Let's talk PvP

[tatsumarujynx]

This thread is intended to be an open discussion for PvP. The objective is for the player base to vocalize their thoughts and concerns to help improve PvP. As the discussion progresses, some ideas, thoughts, or suggestions may be added to the OP in an attempt to consolidate information for the Devs. Ideally this thread will provoke an open line of communication between the PvP community and the Devs.

 

Disclaimer; if you are a PvE'r, please refrain from posting useless variations of how we should be ignored as we are paying subscribers too, we deserve the same love/attention as you, and that type of rhetoric isn't conducive to growing a healthy community as a whole.

 

Unranked PvP Q’s are popping all-day-long, clearly there is a strong PvP community, with the following suggestions we could improve Q times even more! (Cross-server Q’s would help DRASTICALLY, WoW, Gw2, and FFXIV have implemented this system, its time to catch up!!)

 

**GEARING;**

 

Getting to 306 is EZ with MM-HM runs but it's the lateral grind that is the main issue. A player should be able to gear consuming the content they enjoy, especially those who Sub. PvP should be just as viable for gearing as PvE. It seems to me that PvP matches last about as long as a MM-Hammer Station speed run. With that in mind, every PvP match should provide **ALL** participants the equivalent amount of gear/loot as a standard MM-Hammer Station run(typically you get 2-3 rows of gear/rewards whereas a WZ crate currently gives you ONE gear piece..). Currently, only HALF the participating players in a PvP match get gear/loot. WHY?!?! Why am I being punished for playing PvP? Imagine changing PvE so that at the end of a Flashpoint or Operation, SURPRISE only HALF the participating players get rewards...Players would be furious. Sure, give the winning team something a little extra but **ALL** participants should get rewards just like ALL participating players do in ALL other in-game content. This is simply a game-balance issue.

 

Obviously win trading should be dealt with by Banning accounts just like in ranked but to avoid AFKrs/Match throwing, we could have the quantity of rewards on match completion Scaled by Objective performance i.e. the more you play the objective of the match(stacking objective points/playing to win) the more rewards you get. Scaling it in this fashion will remove the ability to match throw/afk. If you don't contribute, you don't get rewards.

 

**Ranked PvP;**

 

This is the most toxic community of any PvP game I've ever played. In an attempt to change this, here are my suggestions for minimum requirements before being aloud to Q for ranked PvP;

 

1. Gear/stat restriction for example; must have iLvl 306, a Tactical, "x" amount of Set bonus gear pieces, all datacrons, "x" amount of augments, and "x" amount of rolled amplifiers, etc. The objective here is to ensure the player has high enough stats to even be competitive in Ranked; HP, DMG bonuses, and DMG mitigation is overwhelmingly higher in Ranked for new players. Getting killed simply because of gear/stats can be mitigated in this manner.

2. Must accumulate "x" amount of wins in 4v4 exhibition matches(I see 4v4 rotating in unranked WZ's so considering this is already in-game, implementation shouldn't be to difficult). This will help the learning curve of new players prior to throwing them into ranked. Lets face it, 8v8 WZ's, with huge maps, and heal/DMG buffs available doesn't prepare you for the small map 4v4 combat of ranked where you can't run and hide or grab a heal/DMG buff. You MUST be self sufficient with your own class/DcD's and the only way to develop this competency is to play 4v4 not 8v8.

3. All 4v4 ranked matches are now restricted by class(this would be much easier to accomplish with Cross-Server-matchmaking for ranked). Each team will have 1 Heal, 1 Tank, and 2 DPS (if not enough Tanks/Heals Q'd), the Algorithm will evaluate the DPS's Q'd based on Ranged/Melee, Cloaking/Non-cloaking, Ability to heal other players or not, etc. The objective of the Algorithm at this point is to continue to seek TEAM-Balance by spreading the DPS class types evenly between both teams to avoid a single team getting stacked in a way that destroys the other i.e. one team has off-heals the other doesn't or one team has all Operatives/Assassins the other team has no stealth's, etc....I believe balancing the teams in this way will reduce the toxicity. I understand the first thought is that it will delay Q times, but my counter argument is that if these changes are implemented, the toxicity of the current ranked community will be reduced resulting in a higher number of players Q'ing for ranked matches.

4. (optional) If we see an adequate rise in the quantity of players Q'ing for ranked, an additional layer of filtering could be beneficial in the form of Solo Q's vs Group Q's (or maybe this is a higher priority? Things to consider). We would tweak the algorithm to group Solo's with Solo's and Groups with Groups. There is a noticeable difference between teams that are grouped/using Voice communications vs Teams that are not. This change could enhance the user experience resulting in higher amounts of players Q'ing for matches vs Rage quitting/not Q'ing.

5. (potentially) If we have the ability to make ALL Q's cross-server, I would love to see Filtering added to PvP Qing options i.e. just like you can filter the list of options for FP's and Ops, we should be able to filter Ranked, Unranked, 4v4, 8v8, objective, arena, huttball. Maybe add a feature that would indicate how active that current Q is with the currently average Q time listed.

 

*NOTE: The "Vote-Kick" system needs to be changed. I see where the utility in being able to vote-kick an afk player, which is good, however, currently it is* ***NOT*** *being used in this capacity. Vote-kick is being used to grief new players to ranked which is ultimately hurting the PvP community. As they are kicked from the match and then penalized further with a Q time restriction and there is no way to contest this mechanic.*

 

1. Rework the mechanic to allow players to initiate a vote kick for AFK players, however, if the player is able to respond, "are you afk click yes/no" then they can't be kicked(as sometimes they will do this while the player is dead and cannot move).

2. Rework the mechanic to where, after "x" amount of player reports, the reported player is banned from Q'n ranked for "x" amount of time. This would adjust the metric in a way that would make it obvious if the player is getting reported by multiple players in multiple matches vs getting griefed in a single match by one set of teammates resulting in you inability to reQ. Adversely, restrict players ability to report other players or a punishment for to many reports to help diminish griefing of new players.

 

**Tacticals;**

 

Currently, certain classes have an unfair advantage to utilize multiple tacticals via their ability to exit combat, while all other classes are restricted to only being able to use **ONE**. We have two options here;

 

1. Gear is locked upon entering WZ. Maybe have a confirmation box pop-up, "Are you sure you are ready to enter the WZ with currently equipped gear?"

2. Allow all classes to swap tacticals whenever they want i.e. remove restriction to swap tacticals during combat so that ALL classes can swap Tac's whenever they please.

 

**Huttball;**

 

I F'n love huttball. I wish there was a tutorial for beginners to understand the mechanics because this game mode is hella fun when everyone knows what to do. The tutorial should include; How to position for passing, how to pass, how to position/deal with traps offensively and defensively, basic positioning strategies based on team composition, and an explanation of the resolve system; how to use it to your advantage as a ball carrier and how to be cautious of it when trying to prevent a ball carrier from advancing. The main issue with huttball ATM is the new abilities. The easiest fix would be the following; **ANY** movement ability that cannot be interrupted, slowed, rooted, mezz'd, or stunned should automatically drop the ball upon activation. This would resolve a lot of the current huttball issues with certain classes being able to grab the ball from center and run to the end zone repeatedly without the ability to stop them.

 

Note: The operative is used as any example, this change should apply to all classes. Any non-leaping movement mechanic (i.e. something that moves along the ground) that exploits gaps(literally glitching form one platform to another) or nullifies the traps(the ability to move through them without dieing) should be fixed and either force ball spike to mid or insta-kill like holding the ball for too long.

 

**Class balance;**

 

Based on what I've seen in discussion, changes here should be separate from PvE if possible. This is a tough one, I don't claim to know every classes new abilities(with your help we can add them to the list of things that need balance and how to balance them) and with the changes to tactical swapping I think some other classes will balance out a little more than they currently are but there are some that are glaringly out of balance.

 

For example, the Operatives roll. The Operative roll breaks **ALL** CC's currently in the game, it is un-stunable/un-interuptable/un-slowable/un-rootable/un-mezzable AND grants invincibility during the roll(allowing them to roll through traps in huttball for example) and grants 2s of invincibility after the roll allowing them to cast uninterrupted heals. Furthermore, I've seen them use it to glitch across gaps that only warrior leaps should be able to cross...The kicker, it can be spammed twice AND its on an 8s CD....no other class in the game has this much utility revolving around **ONE** ability let alone on a such a short CD. For comparison, the warriors ability to dash covers roughly the same distance at roughly the same speed as the roll, THE END. Literally this is where the comparison ends. The dash is on a 45s CD and does NOT grant any of the other benefits that the roll does.

 

Personally I prefer underperforming classes get buffed rather than hitting OP classes with the nerf bat. For example, buff the warrior dash ability to be in line with the roll; same CD, same immunities, same CC breaking function, etc.(this is an example of buffing vs nerfing) If instead we are thinking nerf at the very least, the roll should be on a 45s CD per roll(or allow it to be spammed twice as it is now but implement the increased CD 45s-1m). This would begin to bring it in-line with other abilities in the game, it would still be superior in all the ways stated above but reducing the ability to spam it would help a great deal.

 

With the communities help/experience we can expand this section and hopefully establish contact with the Devs responsible for PvP so that we can see the PvP community in SWTOR continue to grow and thrive. I would love to see Ranked PvP expand to 8v8 and huttball!! Imagine competitive EA PvP matches of 4v4, 8v8, and huttball. It would be a blast. Imagine a weekly Dev stream with live Q&A, talking about upcoming changes or changes being considered. Imagine the Devs bringing some of the top PvP players to the studio to help them make changes to PvP that wouldn't effectively break the system but enhance it.

 

​

 

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to help the OP grow. =)

Edited February 3, 2020 by tatsumarujynx

[Jarbarian]

Right now I'd just be happy with a HUGE NERF BAT to Operatives/Scoundrels who are topping DPS, insane evasion/heals/CC and are basically untouchable.

[Spintrec]

PvP should be just as viable for gearing as PvE. It seems to me that PvP matches last about as long as a MM-Hammer Station speed run. With that in mind, every PvP match should provide ALL participants the equivalent amount of gear/loot as a standard MM-Hammer Station run(typically you get 2-3 rows of gear/rewards whereas a WZ crate currently gives you ONE gear piece..). Currently, only HALF the participating players in a PvP match get gear/loot. WHY?!?! Why am I being punished for playing PvP? Imagine changing PvE so that at the end of a Flashpoint or Operation, SURPRISE only HALF the participating players get rewards...Players would be furious. Sure, give the winning team something a little extra but ALL participants should get rewards just like ALL participating players do in ALL other in-game content. This is simply a game-balance issue.

 

Whilst I 100% agree the rewards for PvP need to be boosted to atleast make them a viable way to gear I don't agree that everyone in the match should get drops equivalent to finishing FP's simply because this would only encourage players to join warzones and either AFK for matches or intentionally throw them so the match is over faster and they get the drops faster.

 

Considering it doesn't take that long to gear up to 306 running FP's I'd rather that remained the most viable way to gear rather than having my warzones ruined by AFKers and match throwers.

 

Huttball;

 

I F'n love huttball. I wish there was a tutorial for beginners to understand the mechanics because this game mode is hella fun when everyone knows what to do. The main issue with huttball ATM is the new abilities. The easiest fix would be the following; ANY movement ability that cannot be interrupted, slowed, rooted, mezz'd, or stunned should automatically drop the ball upon activation. This would resolve a lot of the current huttball issues with certain classes being able to grab the ball from center and run to the end zone repeatedly without the ability to stop them.

 

I also agree that certain classes abilities *cough* operatives roll *cough* can feel like an unfair advantage in Huttball, but a team that is focusing on the ball instead of DMing all over the map can pretty easily counter the operative.

 

The problem is teammates DMing instead of playing the objective, not necessarily the operatives roll.

[tatsumarujynx]

Right now I'd just be happy with a HUGE NERF BAT to Operatives/Scoundrels who are topping DPS, insane evasion/heals/CC and are basically untouchable.

 

Haha, you’re not alone. Many players feel this way. I believe (although thy haven’t conveyed it to us) the Devs are aware and preparing to deal with it. The Question is Nerf Ops or buff everyone else?

[tatsumarujynx]

Considering it doesn't take that long to gear up to 306 running FP's I'd rather that remained the most viable way to gear rather than having my warzones ruined by AFKers and match throwers.

 

I see your point and agree the initial grind to 306 isn’t terrible. The issue is the lateral grind, generally IF you win you get ONE crate that provides ONE gear piece and from my experience, it’s generally a purple...not at 304/306...so my main contention with the current system is that I’m a paying sub that has no real interest in anything but PvP which many other players share. We should be able to consume the content we enjoy as a viable lateral gearing progression...I mean, imagine if the rolls were flipped...you only care about consuming PvE content but what if you were forced to play PvP to gear so you can be optimal in PvE content...you’d be pissed that you had to play a game mode you don’t enjoy to get the gear necessary to be viable in the content you DO enjoy.

 

With regard to AFKrs, I updated the OP.

 

I also agree that certain classes abilities *cough* operatives roll *cough* can feel like an unfair advantage in Huttball, but a team that is focusing on the ball instead of DMing all over the map can pretty easily counter the operative.

 

I think if there was a tutorial setup like the OP suggested and Cross-server Q’s (like most other mmorpgs on the market) this would be a non-issue.

Edited February 3, 2020 by tatsumarujynx

[Aeneas_Falco]

 

 

I also agree that certain classes abilities *cough* operatives roll *cough* can feel like an unfair advantage in Huttball, but a team that is focusing on the ball instead of DMing all over the map can pretty easily counter the operative.

 

.

 

That.

 

Operatives have a lot of mobility and that makes them one of the best ball carriers, but they can absolutely be countered by teams making an effort to counter. If you've got one Operative running the ball from spawn to the end zone repeatedly the issue isn't with the Op's mobility, it's with the team opposing that Operative not focusing on the ball.

 

Guarantee that every Huttball loss due to one Operative repeatedly scoring is enabled by only one to three players actually making an effort to stop the Operative, let alone control the ball spawn.

 

IMO Ops are fine in Huttball but if they're going to be nerfed there, then Sorcs also need to lose an ability to pull friendly ball carriers and Jugs lose the ability to leap to targets with the ball. (I'm not in favor of any of that, just pointing out that other classes have strong abilities in Huttball)

 

If there is any ability that needs to be nerfed in warzones it is Snipers being able to deactivate nodes in Odessen without being interrupted, and only because it is absolutely impossible to stop short of killing the sniper before they get to a node. Jugs, Ops, Sorcs in Huttball can all be countered.

[Floplag]

There are many classes that can bypass mechanics on various maps, Operatives are far and away NOT unique here.

Heck i can cheese them on a merc for petes sake. Rolls, leaps, sprints, almost everyone has some way to bypass mechanics, and thats the real issue in that they should not be the case.

I think those skills should disable with the ball personally or that coming in contact with the obstacle should cause the ball to explode as though youve had it too long.

The mechanics should mean more than they do.

 

Oh and can we please get off the Nerf Ops train here... understand they are not OP, there are a couple bugs that are making it seem OP for those players who must take every possible advantage even though they know they shouldnt be. Its a player problem, not a class problem.

[Pekish]

I would love to be able to gear with PVP but I see that PVP is easily exploitable while PVE is more easy to control

this is why devs tend to favor PVE as gearing/progress way a guild could make 2 teams and try to join together and let one win rushing his gear up something like that.

 

people playing video game is really immature they would find 1000 ways to break any PVP system they do try to break PVE but again PVE is much easier to control for devs.

[tatsumarujynx]

Right now I'd just be happy with a HUGE NERF BAT to Operatives/Scoundrels who are topping DPS, insane evasion/heals/CC and are basically untouchable.

 

It’s definitely tough out there atm...Q’d an 8v8 the other night, there was a group of 3 Concealment Operatives roaming around, hard-stun-bursting ppl down together then vanishing again. 🤦*♂️ Not much you can do in that case but in general Operatives are Easily outperforming all classes atm. I generally advocate buffs over nerfs but I think their roll needs a substantial increase to the CD to bring it back into the realm of reality(assuming you aren’t removing CC break and 2s immunity). Or keep it the same and remove CC break and immunity or some combination of CD adjustment/removal of one effect.

[tatsumarujynx]

I would love to be able to gear with PVP but I see that PVP is easily exploitable while PVE is more easy to control

this is why devs tend to favor PVE as gearing/progress way a guild could make 2 teams and try to join together and let one win rushing his gear up something like that.

 

people playing video game is really immature they would find 1000 ways to break any PVP system they do try to break PVE but again PVE is much easier to control for devs.

 

Exploiters get banned for win trading in Ranked, we would punish win trading in Regs the same way. 🤷*♂️

[tatsumarujynx]

There are many classes that can bypass mechanics on various maps, Operatives are far and away NOT unique here.

Heck i can cheese them on a merc for petes sake. Rolls, leaps, sprints, almost everyone has some way to bypass mechanics, and thats the real issue in that they should not be the case.

I think those skills should disable with the ball personally or that coming in contact with the obstacle should cause the ball to explode as though youve had it too long.

The mechanics should mean more than they do.

 

Oh and can we please get off the Nerf Ops train here... understand they are not OP, there are a couple bugs that are making it seem OP for those players who must take every possible advantage even though they know they shouldnt be. Its a player problem, not a class problem.

 

I agree. Exploited mechanics should be fixed and you have some good suggestions(I’ll add to OP). I don’t agree that abilities should be disabled on ball pick-up, just make them drop it and reset to mid. Players should have access to their abilities so they can choose to carry or drop i.e. stealth spiking the ball back to mid if you’re gonna die and there’s no one to pass too.

 

The notion that Operatives are not outperforming all classes atm is just isn’t true. Anyone playing pvp can tell you that(especially if you play melee). I agree that I don’t want to see them get hammered by the nerf bat, just a small tweak to their roll CD, CC break, or immunity or some combo of the three would bring them back in-line i.e. keep CC break/Immunity make it 1m++ CD or maybe 30-45s CD but remove CC break or immunity.

[tatsumarujynx]

Considering it doesn't take that long to gear up to 306 running FP's I'd rather that remained the most viable way to gear rather than having my warzones ruined by AFKers and match throwers.

 

I can see where AFK'rs/match throwing could be an issue. With that in mind, we could instead attach the drops to Performance based on playing the Objective. The more Objective points, the more rewards you receive.

 

The problem is teammates DMing instead of playing the objective, not necessarily the operatives roll.

 

I agree that players focusing on DM'n instead of the objective generally results in a loss but I do not agree that the Operatives ability to grab the ball, roll twice on an 8s CD that you can't CC in any way and they can pop an uninterruptible heal every-time they do its isn't a problem. It most certainly is and needs a solution.

[Floplag]

I agree. Exploited mechanics should be fixed and you have some good suggestions(I’ll add to OP). I don’t agree that abilities should be disabled on ball pick-up, just make them drop it and reset to mid. Players should have access to their abilities so they can choose to carry or drop i.e. stealth spiking the ball back to mid if you’re gonna die and there’s no one to pass too.

 

The notion that Operatives are not outperforming all classes atm is just isn’t true. Anyone playing pvp can tell you that(especially if you play melee). I agree that I don’t want to see them get hammered by the nerf bat, just a small tweak to their roll CD, CC break, or immunity or some combo of the three would bring them back in-line i.e. keep CC break/Immunity make it 1m++ CD or maybe 30-45s CD but remove CC break or immunity.

 

For section 1, i would be fine with that as well, good option.

 

For section 2, it comes down to WHY they are over performing. Stacked set bonuses, ease of tactical swap, a bunch of things that simply have to be bugs. Those have to get fixed before we can accurately evaluate the status of the class accurately is my point. They are over performing now due to those things, would they be after? i dont know.

[Nathan_Hanefort]

My question is - why skank tanks usually are not allowed to participate in dueling tournaments?

 

Guardian tank with dps gear are the only realistic way to have a chance to win a duel against op, sniper, mara, sorc and merc dps. So in general guardians are banned from any major tournaments.....

[Xhuuyaa]

It’s definitely tough out there atm...Q’d an 8v8 the other night, there was a group of 3 Concealment Operatives roaming around, hard-stun-bursting ppl down together then vanishing again. 🤦*♂️ Not much you can do in that case ...

 

How about normal WZs?

I see lot of Sorcs doing 8-9 Mio DMG. And Sorcs are way easier to master. Juggs, 6-7 Mio... and 1,5+ Heal. Sins 6-7+ Mio. Sins & Pts crits like hell. Im not seeing Opers with numbers this big. I barely see one or two at all in regs (same as Sents). There are plenty of Sorcs, Sins, Sniper, some Juggs out there, all with huge numbers.

So if Opers overperform so much, where are they?

Ranked? Should the class just get nerfed because they are doing best at 1vs1 or because of class stacking which is and always will be a problem?

[snave]

My question is - why skank tanks usually are not allowed to participate in dueling tournaments?

 

Guardian tank with dps gear are the only realistic way to have a chance to win a duel against op, sniper, mara, sorc and merc dps. So in general guardians are banned from any major tournaments.....

 

Operatives are kept in a separate bracket from the rest of the classes, you could certainly have skank tanks in the operative bracket if you wanted it, but people don't.

 

Source: Me

[Lhancelot]

Operatives are kept in a separate bracket from the rest of the classes, you could certainly have skank tanks in the operative bracket if you wanted it, but people don't.

 

Source: Me

 

Stop handing out esoteric operative class knowledge to the plebs, Snave. How can you remain an elite overlord if you go giving away all your secrets?