We need balance

[supertimtaf]

Your nerfs are funny, because some of them will just hurt PvE along PvP.

 

First and foremost, for decep' sin, if you wanna nerf their insane burst, just prevents maul from getting an autocrit if it doesn't get the duplicity proc (one maul every ten seconds should be enough, and would prevent the braindead spam).

Just do that and you don't nerf PvE sin, and prevent the abuse of maul-spamming, which I do hate tbh.

 

Second thing, your nerfs are fine, but again you do not seem to realize what will happen if you basically remove Deception/Operatives/aoePT from PvP. Guess who comes out on top again ? Mercs, mara and snipers. But I can't be mad, you probably didn't play 5.X enough, or you were a merc/mara at the time. Nerfing is fine, and deserved in this game, but only if it brings a balanced outcome, which your proposition does not, for the moment.

 

Mercs are still absurdly strong right now, I'm all in about removing the 70% kolto overload, and nerfing the healing stacks on shield, which are too much also.

 

Snipers needs their teleport to be removed. Period. If you wanna give snipers some tools, just give them something else. But not an escape or another defensive cooldown. They already have more than their fair share. The nerf to the roll reset was needed, but adding teleport just negates the nerf.

 

Marauders need something to be kept at bay. Either change completely Obfuscate (since it doesn't work in end-game PvE it wouldn't hurt) or just allow them to be decloaked if they take damage while in stealth. This would prevent a lot of issues regarding Force Camouflage. If I wanted, I'd remove the root cleanse from predation too, but that maybe too harsh.

 

Last but not least, roots, ccs, slows and speed buffs. All of them should be completely removed.

Only root should be sniper's, and marauders/jugg. Only slows should be Force Slow, marauder's on their healing debuff, and juggs on their slowing aoe, the one that does no damage.

Speed buffs should only be given to mara with predation, inquisitors with force speed, and bounty hunter with hydrolics.

 

We already have too much cc in this game, roots and slows just makes it worse, along with all the infernal d-sync all the time, that will not get fixed because BW does not want to ackowledge it

 

That's all for my rant. I would talk about ruffian tho, I don't see the point in nerfing them, they already do terrible in PvP right now, and you would just make them worse in PvE too, which we don't want. As always, if you do not want to hurt PvE, nerf defensive utilities, not damage. Deception being a special case, because in PvP the current opener doesn't follow the intended gameplay for the class, which should be fixed asap.

Edited December 18, 2019 by supertimtaf

[Yamahara]

Instead of asking for nerfs, which will break all of the said classes and basically make it 5.0s again; We should be asking to buff everything that is lacking to get on par instead. All of the nerfs you're asking for is basically just rolling it back to how it was before.

[Yamahara]

Don't even. That's just utter BS. And I know because I play lethality. Lethality is extremely tanky when it wants to be. But this is not a nerf to its defenses this is a nerf to its offenses, because right now lethal strike is simply broken. It should not spread, and when it does spread it can single handidly wreck a 4 man cleave.

 

So then just make veiled strikes aoe spread hit less than it's main target? I'm pretty sure this has been done before to stop an aoe problem. Also, who besides 3 or 4 people are actually running leth? Lol, you're basically making that tactical useless removing it all together. Run leth without the tactical for a bit and get back to me on how it holds up Prum.👍

[JediMasterAlex]

I fully support all these changes except for camouflage harsh nerf. Now when sins have double vanish and mercs double rocket out and opers debilitator set running away as mara became too hard. They should make cd on reset like: first predation resets camouflage, second not and third yes etc. So only every second predation resets it.

 

I know they won't do it, but personally I think they should nerf all of the stealth out BS. It's very unfun to have to constantly chase people around the map, and it's not very much fun to do as the stealther either.

[PhatMcMuffins]

Please don´t forget:

 

Nerf Rocket Fuel Vapors (merc healer)

 

Previeous: Kolto Missile grants a stack of Supercharge for each target it hits. Supercharged Gas heals all nearby allies for 5200 - 7200 when activated. Kolto Missile’s cooldown is extended by 4 seconds.

 

New: Kolto Missile heals for 20 % more.

 

LOL heals overall were nerfed and nothiing about ANY healing tac or set is broken. this is worse than complaining about that missile blast knockback

Edited December 19, 2019 by PhatMcMuffins

[Benirons]

I dont agree with nerfing meteor brawler, but I'm talking regs perspective. If in ranked all 4 of you are stupid enough to hug that PT, it serves you right. EXplosive fuel has a crazy long CD, so it is a one trick pony once in a long while. I have not even played a single game with meteor brawler in 6.0, so this is not a dont nerf my spec bruh.

 

The real problem is inquisitors. Death knells is just stupid. How is having 6 back to back auto criticals cool? Giant, actual criticals mind you. At least add a goddamn rate limit to maul/assassinate crit, only once every 10 secs or so. Recklessness also has a pretty short CD I think, stealth lowers it by a lot.

 

Lightning is still stupid. Should not be allowed to have all that flat DR that you can keep up forever, and literally run circles around anyone. Just maddening. When you get inquisitors low, they just run away with forcespeed and get heals.

 

I dont see snipers as a problem. Being hard to kill takes effort. You cant just run away willy nilly leaving yourself completely exposed. Snipers need staying power, as they are literally the most stationary class in the game.

[Ahwassa]

LOL heals overall were nerfed overall and nothiing about ANY healing tac or set is broken. this is worst than complaining about that missile blast knockback

 

I guess you played and parsed with all healing classes and tacticals to say that?

Having the highest burst and highest aoe heal while only pressing 3 buttons and no heat poblems seem not broken to you?

[UltraFlashStar]

I know they won't do it, but personally I think they should nerf all of the stealth out BS. It's very unfun to have to constantly chase people around the map, and it's not very much fun to do as the stealther either.

 

Define stealth out nerf.

Chasing people never seemed hard because they’re like 3-4 slows/roots available to every class. The hard part is finding hem after they stealth out.

 

How would you nerf it and make it somewhat bearable to play classes like Serenity which are weak right now in Ranked?

[JediMasterAlex]

Define stealth out nerf.

Chasing people never seemed hard because they’re like 3-4 slows/roots available to every class. The hard part is finding hem after they stealth out.

 

How would you nerf it and make it somewhat bearable to play classes like Serenity which are weak right now in Ranked?

 

I suppose I mainly meant that I preferred the stealth situation in 5.x. Sins got one stealth out, maras usually only got one or two. And there are a lot more ops queueing now than before. So now it's just constant stealth outs. And you're right, I didn't necessarily mean literal chasing. It's more like, you have to start out attacking a sin, it stealths out, you swap to a mara, it stealths out, you swap to an op, it stealths out, you swap back to the sin, it stealths out, you swap back to the mara, it stealths out, etc, etc, etc. Meanwhile, the fight is often moving around the whole map as people try to pop people from stealth or find healing spots. It devolves into a mess that just isn't very fun to me even when I win.

[septru]

I dont agree with nerfing meteor brawler, but I'm talking regs perspective. If in ranked all 4 of you are stupid enough to hug that PT, it serves you right. EXplosive fuel has a crazy long CD, so it is a one trick pony once in a long while. I have not even played a single game with meteor brawler in 6.0, so this is not a dont nerf my spec bruh.

 

caus u haven't played a single ranked game... lol. The only stupid ones are the kids that sit in regs all day, thinking they are good and know how to play the game. Of course meteoric brawler is not strong in regs. because 90% of the kids in regs don't even know how to play the game.

 

Have you ever been in an arena where 3 pts all taking meteoric brawler are all trying to explode one player? Where they are carbing, stunning, slowwing, rooting, pulling, one player, in order to plop on that player at the same time? 300k damage in one global just by one ability? Of course not, caus we're dumb, and you play regs.

 

Instead of asking for nerfs, which will break all of the said classes and basically make it 5.0s again; We should be asking to buff everything that is lacking to get on par instead. All of the nerfs you're asking for is basically just rolling it back to how it was before.

 

I really doubt all the nerfs are going to be so severe that it rolls everything back to 5.0. I think the meta will stand. Heals will be weaker than dps. Cleave dps will still be insane. Burst will still be insane. Just to a lesser degree.

 

So then just make veiled strikes aoe spread hit less than it's main target? I'm pretty sure this has been done before to stop an aoe problem. Also, who besides 3 or 4 people are actually running leth? Lol, you're basically making that tactical useless removing it all together. Run leth without the tactical for a bit and get back to me on how it holds up Prum.👍

 

First off its not veiled strike that spreads. Lethality doesn't have veiled strike. That is only for concealment. Lethal strike (the equivalent of backstab) is what spreads.

 

Second off I have run without the tactical. I was running without it in 4s on DM for 20 games because my ******* thought the virulence spread tactical was the same as lethality spread tactical. And you know what? I still topped the charts putting out 8k dps 5k hps. So I know when I say lethality does not need a lethal strike spread.

 

Even so, I acknowledge what you saying. I think making it hit less than it's main target could work as a nerf. But I don't think taking out lethal strike would be all-together bad either.

Edited December 19, 2019 by septru

[aristein]

As most people are PVE players and don't Rank PVP, how about BW NOT nerf anybody and ruin everyone's else's character ability to have fun. How about instead we just eliminate gear for you Ranked PVP players. Everyone (regardless of gear) gets generic stats (DPS or Tank) and then everything is "balanced" for Ranked PVP?

 

Yea, we all know how that would turn out...Ranked PVP'ers complaining that some class skills do more with the generic stats than others...nerf them!! My point is that many classes are finally really fun to play. I leveled an OP recently and am in the middle of leveling a Sin just because they have become more fun to play. Why does everyone else have to have their characters nerfed and their fun along with it, just to "balance" Ranked PVP?

 

I am not against balancing Ranked PVP. I am just against screwing up everyone's PVE fun to do it. Whatever the devs do, they should do it for the arena, not to the characters.

[JediMasterAlex]

I am not against balancing Ranked PVP. I am just against screwing up everyone's PVE fun to do it. Whatever the devs do, they should do it for the arena, not to the characters.

 

Your whole post makes no sense, because balance is largely irrelevant in pve. As long as every class can clear all the content, then it makes little difference which classes are on top. Unless you're on a raid team that is particularly stringent about having "meta" classes, how would minor balance changes affect anything about your pve experience?

 

In ranked, it's about comparative performance, and frankly, how fun it is to play. Having to constantly play against overperforming stealth classes isn't all that fun, and generally whichever team gets more stealthers wins. Balance is essential for a fair and competitive experience.

 

Also, we already have max bolster, but that doesn't affect set bonuses or tacticals, which are far, far more important than mere stats.

Edited December 19, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Yamahara]

caus u haven't played a single ranked game... lol. The only stupid ones are the kids that sit in regs all day, thinking they are good and know how to play the game. Of course meteoric brawler is not strong in regs. because 90% of the kids in regs don't even know how to play the game.

 

Have you ever been in an arena where 3 pts all taking meteoric brawler are all trying to explode one player? Where they are carbing, stunning, slowwing, rooting, pulling, one player, in order to plop on that player at the same time? 300k damage in one global just by one ability? Of course not, caus we're dumb, and you play regs.

 

 

 

I really doubt all the nerfs are going to be so severe that it rolls everything back to 5.0. I think the meta will stand. Heals will be weaker than dps. Cleave dps will still be insane. Burst will still be insane. Just to a lesser degree.

 

 

 

First off its not veiled strike that spreads. Lethality doesn't have veiled strike. That is only for concealment. Lethal strike (the equivalent of backstab) is what spreads.

 

Second off I have run without the tactical. I was running without it in 4s on DM for 20 games because my ******* thought the virulence spread tactical was the same as lethality spread tactical. And you know what? I still topped the charts putting out 8k dps 5k hps. So I know when I say lethality does not need a lethal strike spread.

 

Even so, I acknowledge what you saying. I think making it hit less than it's main target could work as a nerf. But I don't think taking out lethal strike would be all-together bad either.

 

Yeah I meant lethal not veiled, my bad. Idk 8k isnt much these days when you compare it to even what single target AP can pull on average, especially considering leth is dot spread. I'm definitely game for off target lethal spread nerf, but I think it would underperform if it lost it. We 100% need balance, after getting crapped on by double cloak decep in dps games I definitely agree, lol. I just don't want to see classes dumped into the gutter again like many times before.

[PhatMcMuffins]

I guess you played and parsed with all healing classes and tacticals to say that?

Having the highest burst and highest aoe heal while only pressing 3 buttons and no heat poblems seem not broken to you?

 

parsing means nothing in pvp, esoecially ranked. effective HPS is far different and if you're talking pure hps, op wins anyway with 3 targets and self

 

highest burst is only in combination of using abilities with cooldowns.

each healer has something it is better at.

op has best aoe heal potential, lowest burst. easiest energy economy

sorc has middle range of both aoe and burst with moderately difficult energy economy

merc has highest burst, lowest aoe potential (kolto missile may be the highest single tick but is not the highest aoe ability) and most difficult energy management (unless rooted/stun the perfect amount.)

 

comparing abilities: innervate heals for more per tick and has a lower cd than progressive scan which is a very similar ability.

 

strengths and weaknesses.

 

but all of that is beside the point. Healer is significantly weaker than in 5.x. A 4 dps team vs a 3 dps 1 heals team often has the advantage now because of the strength of burst. It is far more difficult to carry as a healer than it was before.

 

If you think rocket fuel vapors is too strong COMPARATIVELY, then bring up some things for the other two.

If you think you only press 3 buttons and don't have heat problems, you're also wrong. Burst is king right now and burst healing will still expend heat/ammo at a rate that will put you into the slower regen rates

Edited December 19, 2019 by PhatMcMuffins

[Ahwassa]

parsing means nothing in pvp, esoecially ranked. effective HPS is far different and if you're talking pure hps, op wins anyway with 3 targets and self

 

but all of that is beside the point. Healer is significantly weaker than in 5.x. A 4 dps team vs a 3 dps 1 heals team often has the advantage now because of the strength of burst. It is far more difficult to carry as a healer than it was before.

 

I agree with you.

But I still think that sorcerer is not at a good spot in pvp. I played regs and as merc I survived longer ( I could stand in the group, spamming kolto rocket and supercharged gas and not be interupted.) I know op has more potential but I couldn´t spam heals that much. And while sorc has a fast burst, it´s not very bursty right now + bubble explodes instantly now.

Maybe merc is ok - I don´t know. Spamming heals as merc felt broken ...

And I´m so dissapointed that the sorc tacticals are useless.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Ahwassa

[septru]

I played regs

 

.....

[Benirons]

caus u haven't played a single ranked game... lol. The only stupid ones are the kids that sit in regs all day, thinking they are good and know how to play the game. Of course meteoric brawler is not strong in regs. because 90% of the kids in regs don't even know how to play the game.

 

Have you ever been in an arena where 3 pts all taking meteoric brawler are all trying to explode one player? Where they are carbing, stunning, slowwing, rooting, pulling, one player, in order to plop on that player at the same time? 300k damage in one global just by one ability? Of course not, caus we're dumb, and you play regs.

 

No ive never been in an arena with 3 PTs. Cause i find arenas extremely boring with a severe lack of objectives other than kill everyone.

 

That said, if u see 3 PTs and u dont at least have a plan for whats coming, its on u. U know its coming, at least try. CC keep at a distance, whatever. PTs still die easily, unless they r skank tanking which is a pretty universal problem.

 

U take that one trick pony away from them, they r left with again nothing! At least they cant stealth and u see them coming. U need 3 PTs to "global" a player which takes some ramp up too. I just yesterday put together a deathknell set to to see whats really going on.... well 2 sins open up on a guy, they r dead in seconds. Once guy is dead, u leave combat pretty much for free most of the time and u can go do it again and again and again.

[IamtherealKyle]

No ive never been in an arena with 3 PTs. Cause i find arenas extremely boring with a severe lack of objectives other than kill everyone.

 

That said, if u see 3 PTs and u dont at least have a plan for whats coming, its on u. U know its coming, at least try. CC keep at a distance, whatever. PTs still die easily, unless they r skank tanking which is a pretty universal problem.

 

U take that one trick pony away from them, they r left with again nothing! At least they cant stealth and u see them coming. U need 3 PTs to "global" a player which takes some ramp up too. I just yesterday put together a deathknell set to to see whats really going on.... well 2 sins open up on a guy, they r dead in seconds. Once guy is dead, u leave combat pretty much for free most of the time and u can go do it again and again and again.

 

ur posts are embarrassing to read, esp the bold part

[tatsumarujynx]

If you nerf these classes you absolutely need to nerf mercs, snipers and maras. Otherwise you will just have the same imbalance that you did in the majority of 5.x.

 

The bottom line is (most) these classes were just brought up to the OPness of other classes.

 

There is nothing about Mara that needs nerfed in 6.0. They only have one viable tree in PvP right now and compared to the other classes, they are the least of your worries. CC them and move along.

Edited December 22, 2019 by tatsumarujynx

[tatsumarujynx]

6) Nerf Defel Spliced Genes tactical (marauder)

Previous: "Activating Predation finishes the cooldown of Force Camouflage ."

Change: "Activating Predation finishes the cooldown of Force Camouflage. This effect can only occur once every 10 minutes."

or alternatively: "Activating Saber Ward finishes the cooldown of Force Camouflage." or any other defensive cooldown with has a longer timer. Predation is on a way to short timer.

.

 

No. There is nothing about Mara’s that needs to be nerfed in 6.0. Carnage is broke/unusable, Anni is meh at best but generally is **** due to lack of CC breaks so you spend the whole match staring at the player you wanna kill waiting for your current CC to where off, and then lacking the burst to kill them before they do it again, leaving the only viable option for PvP is to play Fury.

 

Force camo itself literally is nothing more than a target lock drop. It does not disengage combat. You have to run halfway across the map before you are out of combat to heal. By the time you’re back in the fight your team has lost the objective or are mostly dead which still results in losing the objective and that’s only if you get away. If you have DOTS on you it breaks stealth and you die anyway.

 

I use it as a solo player for the CYA since I generally don’t have a pocket healer, that’s all its really good for, saving your own *** by bugging out when you get overwhelmed. It’s not resetting any abilities, it’s not adding to DPS(in fact it’s actually a DPS loss), it’s not providing any team utility. There is no reason to nerf it. Outside of someone being upset cuz they almost killed a Mara but they escaped....

 

Even if this was a warranted nerf(which it is most definitely not), once every 10m?! ****. That’s once a match. When you got Sins spamming Back to back triple crits for 70k each, netting 420k dmg, and that’s not even considering their ability to swap tacticals on the fly letting them heal to damn near full HP, or operatives roll which cant been stunned, mezzed, CCd slowed, interrupted etc while they out heal your DPS and out DPS you(literally a Tank/Healer/DPS all in one).....you’re concerned about a Mara kill you got robbed on cuz he ran away??? Please...Mara isn’t even on the spectrum of nerfs right now.

Edited December 22, 2019 by tatsumarujynx

[Gyronamics]

Force camo itself literally is nothing more than a target lock drop.

 

Being able to ditch an attempt to kill you and get a speed boost out of there every 30s is no big deal

[septru]

No. There is nothing about Mara’s that needs to be nerfed in 6.0. Carnage is broke/unusable, Anni is meh at best but generally is **** due to lack of CC breaks so you spend the whole match staring at the player you wanna kill waiting for your current CC to where off, and then lacking the burst to kill them before they do it again, leaving the only viable option for PvP is to play Fury.

 

Sure but those are offensive arguments. Carnage and anni are not doing well offensively. Defensively, with defel spliced genes, all marauder specs are doing just fine. If you want to complain about offense, then complain about offense but don't buff defenses in an attempt to compensate for a lack of offense. That's what they did in 5.0 merc and look at how well it went.

 

Force camo itself literally is nothing more than a target lock drop. It does not disengage combat. You have to run halfway across the map before you are out of combat to heal. By the time you’re back in the fight your team has lost the objective or are mostly dead which still results in losing the objective and that’s only if you get away. If you have DOTS on you it breaks stealth and you die anyway.

 

This is just not true. It is so far from the truth that it's almost laughable. Marauder inconstantly gets out of combat because chasing is hard in certain situations. Most of the time they only wait for a couple seconds before getting out of combat. And even if they don't they have 5 more predations to try it again later. Dots don't break marauder stealth. It's just wrong. And on top of that you don't die through stealth even if you have dots on because camo is a 75% damage DR.

[allexj]

So I currently play Shadow Tank, and I understand why people view the current setup extremely OP however if you remove what we currently have we go back to w.e we were before. Reducing the damage of Darth knell kills all shadows in PvP. Getting rid of tatical swaping while on the actual map will solve some of the problem but create a new one. Unless they come out with better shadow sets over all it just won't work.

[DavidAtkinson]

Sure but those are offensive arguments. Carnage and anni are not doing well offensively. Defensively, with defel spliced genes, all marauder specs are doing just fine. If you want to complain about offense, then complain about offense but don't buff defenses in an attempt to compensate for a lack of offense. That's what they did in 5.0 merc and look at how well it went.

 

 

 

This is just not true. It is so far from the truth that it's almost laughable. Marauder inconstantly gets out of combat because chasing is hard in certain situations. Most of the time they only wait for a couple seconds before getting out of combat. And even if they don't they have 5 more predations to try it again later. Dots don't break marauder stealth. It's just wrong. And on top of that you don't die through stealth even if you have dots on because camo is a 75% damage DR.

 

What you propose just kills PVP even further..

 

Nerf this nerf that... This is exactly what got us where we are now and this is why we have garbage class balance.

 

They don't need to nerf anything. They just have to buff the specs and classes that are currently dogs in PVP. But buff them properly and not just for the sake of buffing like what they did with sins and opers.

 

If a class has 80k mauls or 70k and can use it multiple times, another class has to have something to counter.. something similar. If rage jugg can barely furious strike 50k for example, the sin is far superior and the Jugg is already useless based on that alone. Oh but it has ED.. means nothing in arenas. People will burst through it.

 

How do you even balance for COMPETITIVE PVP in a game that was never designed for it ? The PVP mechanics are bad.... 90% of the deaths are the result of some kind of stun , root, slow. . The CD of stun breakers is much longer than that of the stuns itself etc.

 

If you want my honest opinion, it's almost impossible to balance and most cries come from those who play ranked. And that's how many %% of the total population ?

Edited December 23, 2019 by DavidAtkinson