We need balance

[septru]

You told us to wait. Wait for the majority of players to get their tacticals, set bonuses, amplifiers, gear. So we did. And it is not apparent. We need balance.

 

1) Nerf Death Knell set bonus (assassin)

Previous: "Whenever you consume a charge of Recklessness you gain a stack of Reckless Slaughter, increasing melee damage done by 10% for 30 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times."

Change: "Whenever you consume a charge of Recklessness you gain a stack of Reckless Slaughter, increasing melee damage done by 5% for 30 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times."

or alternatively just make maul require much more force so that spamming it actually does have a drawback.

 

2) Tactical swapping is no longer allowed once a round starts.

3) Nerf volatile strike tactical (operative)

Previous: "Veiled Strike automatically critically hits targets affected by your unexploded Volatile Substance and triggers it immediately. Dealing damage this way causes your next Backstab to critically hit.

Change: "Veiled Strike immediate triggers your unexploded Volatile Substance. Dealing damage this way causes your next Backstab to critically hit."

4) Nerf Meteor Brawler set bonus (powertech)

Previous: "Activating Energy Shield gives you Firefall for the duration of Energy Shield. During this time, dealing damage with Searing Wave, Flame Burst, Magnetic Blast, Rocket Punch, or Flaming Fist builds up to 7 stacks of Firefall. When Energy Shield ends, it detonates dealing elemental damage to all enemies around that scales with Firefall stacks. After it explodes, your heat-using abilities cost 50% less heat for 20 seconds"

Change: "Activating Explosive fuel gives you Firefall for the duration of Explosive Fuel. During this time, dealing damage with Searing Wave, Flame Burst, Magnetic Blast, Rocket Punch, or Flaming Fist builds up to 4 stacks of Firefall. When Energy Shield ends, it detonates dealing elemental damage to all enemies around that scales with Firefall stacks. After it explodes, your heat-using abilities cost 50% less heat for 20 seconds"

5) Nerf Elemental Convention tactical (sorcerer)

Previous: "Volt Rush triggers Lightning Storm when activated. Chain Lightning gives you Volt Flux, causing your Volt Rush to arc to multiple targets for the next 10 seconds."

Change: "Volt Rush triggers Lightning Storm when activated. This effect can only occur every 5 seconds. Chain Lightning gives you Volt Flux, causing your Volt Rush to arc to multiple targets for the next 10 seconds.

6) Nerf Defel Spliced Genes tactical (marauder)

Previous: "Activating Predation finishes the cooldown of Force Camouflage ."

Change: "Activating Predation finishes the cooldown of Force Camouflage. This effect can only occur once every 2 minutes."

or alternatively: "Activating Saber Ward finishes the cooldown of Force Camouflage." or any other defensive cooldown with has a longer timer. Predation is on a way to short timer.

 

7) Nerf Viral Elements tactical (operative)

 

Previous: "Toxic Haze spreads Toxic Blast’s effect and Lethal Strike does additional damage to all nearby targets affected by Toxic Haze."

Change: "Toxic Haze spreads Toxic Blast’s effect."

 

 

Points to note:

 

Who in their bright mind, gave mercenaries the Missile Blastback tactical. "Missile Blast knocks its target back and refunds some heat." So let me get this right... You give mercenaries a utility that makes missile blast a root, then you give them a tactical that makes it also a knockback, and hell you also make it so that it refunds heat instead of costing heat so that they can just spam it.... Ya I bet the people that gave sniper phase walk also came up with this dumb tactical. It's not OP it's just dumb.

 

May need to nerf Force Bound tactical (warrior) when it comes out. It's a 90% accuracy debuff on a 30 second cooldown. Worse than diversion. But we can wait until the tactical is actually fully in the game before nerfing it.

 

.

Edited December 23, 2019 by septru

[Kawiki]

If you nerf these classes you absolutely need to nerf mercs, snipers and maras. Otherwise you will just have the same imbalance that you did in the majority of 5.x.

 

The bottom line is (most) these classes were just brought up to the OPness of other classes.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Kawiki

[steveerkcanjerk]

If you nerf these classes you absolutely need to nerf mercs, snipers and maras. Otherwise you will just have the same imbalance that you did in the majority of 5.x.

 

The bottom line is (most) these classes were just brought up to the OPness of other classes.

 

As a merc main since launch i agree with you that other nerfs would need to be done. But nerfing crazy tacticals that obliterate teams like meteor brawler would be a nice start. It is much easier to go nerfing class utilities and dcds then it is amps and tacticals because now there is so much randomness. Periodic damage amps are insane as well atm. And dot specs are hitting really really hard. And if you don't have an amped up healer or are amped in defense against gg against a competent player playing a dot spec. But You are correct, this would only be a first step in nerfs.

[Lhancelot]

***NERF***NERF***NERF***

 

I just see lots of classes getting neutered into uselessness.

[alasamaya]

Its really sad the game atm...I cant believe two stealthers classes can be more bursty than unstelthed melee ones. Whats the point on this? Tired of the 75 k mauls x 3, no cd, op burst in unreal as well. THey can also swap tacticals super easy. Seriously devs - I ment, dev - What kind of joke is this?

 

Ps: Stop the +200% running speed please, its laggy and *********** annoying

Edited December 18, 2019 by alasamaya

[UltraFlashStar]

Nerf Ruffian?! REEeee

 

We already have terrible defenses, Viral Elements takes 5 GCDs to set up anyways and target move out of to often.

[septru]

I just see lots of classes getting neutered into uselessness.

 

You ask me to justify any of the nerfs and I will, but a "useless neutering" is just false. In fact if you look at the actual purposed changes, most of the tacticals and set bonuses retain their effects.

[septru]

Nerf Ruffian?! REEeee

 

We already have terrible defenses, Viral Elements takes 5 GCDs to set up anyways and target move out of to often.

 

Don't even. That's just utter BS. And I know because I play lethality. Lethality is extremely tanky when it wants to be. But this is not a nerf to its defenses this is a nerf to its offenses, because right now lethal strike is simply broken. It should not spread, and when it does spread it can single handidly wreck a 4 man cleave.

[Ahwassa]

Please don´t forget:

 

Nerf Rocket Fuel Vapors (merc healer)

 

Previeous: Kolto Missile grants a stack of Supercharge for each target it hits. Supercharged Gas heals all nearby allies for 5200 - 7200 when activated. Kolto Missile’s cooldown is extended by 4 seconds.

 

New: Kolto Missile heals for 20 % more.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Ahwassa

[UltraFlashStar]

Don't even. That's just utter BS. And I know because I play lethality. Lethality is extremely tanky when it wants to be. But this is not a nerf to its defenses this is a nerf to its offenses, because right now lethal strike is simply broken. It should not spread, and when it does spread it can single handidly wreck a 4 man cleave.

 

The change to the tactical isn’t smart. They’re would be little reason to run it. Mass spread on Sanguinary would serve only to basically fluff damage. 85% of the time you already have your Sanguinary on your primary target. And even if you swap targets Sanguinary has a short cooldown.

 

Right now, if that change happened, I would probably swap it for Overwhelming or Synox Shots. Ruffian already has it s fair share of bad tacticals (Mainly Catalyzed Toxins), adding another is bad taste. A more smart change would be to have a cap to the damage that can be output by Viral Elements. And singlehandedly wreck and entire 4 man cleave is a bit pushing it. Moderately cripple in scenarios is more accurate.

 

You might say to use Lacerating Blast as an AoE, then you have to consider unless you’re running Authority and the increase in LB damage, you’re not going to see any meaningful damage. LB also is weird because of its 180 degree, travel time, blasts.

 

If you have Synox, you’re at least getting that good Sanguinary damage (5k) (energy regen is nice I guess). If I chose Viral Elements I’m just getting a spread on a 1.3k-2.5k addition to my DoTs.

 

Small point, but that change also effects PvE, so there’s that.

 

On a more personal note, I was looking forward to making a build designed around staying in your Bushwhack w/ Lacerating Blast (Authority / Viral Elements / Slow on LB / Increase in LB damage). Would of been kinda fun.

 

All in all, I agree it should be capped. Not removed.

 

Now for the defenses part...

 

When I said that I kinda meant offensively, I was browsing during the pre-round and made a quick statement before I started. I meant against the current meta, especially since instant kolto heals about 27k if you’re lucky which is easily burned through considering the damage output in 6.0. DR is the big thing going for Ruffian.

 

Now I probably messed up the above defense statement because I spent most of my energy on the Viral Elements defense and I’m tired.

Edited December 18, 2019 by UltraFlashStar

[UglyStik]

1) Nerf life warden in PVP

2) What about allowing tactical swapping for everyone (In combat, obviously) but with a 2 or 3 minute CD? It adds to the game IMO

3) buff hatred OR buff murderous revelation set. Remove the stealth requirement from the 6 piece but change the 4 piece to not include overcharge saber so it doesn't come up as often.

4) Meteor brawler & deathknell are insanely OP but don't break the play style when you nerf them. OR instead of nerfing, why not buff other classes that are struggling?

[UltraFlashStar]

1) Nerf life warden in PVP

2) What about allowing tactical swapping for everyone (In combat, obviously) but with a 2 or 3 minute CD? It adds to the game IMO

3) buff hatred OR buff murderous revelation set. Remove the stealth requirement from the 6 piece but change the 4 piece to not include overcharge saber so it doesn't come up as often.

4) Meteor brawler & deathknell are insanely OP but don't break the play style when you nerf them. OR instead of nerfing, why not buff other classes that are struggling?

 

 

1) Why?

 

2) No.

 

3) Don’t know enough about Hatred to judge it accurately, so no comment. Other than playing it for awhile when 6.0 started and some comment from Serenity players.

 

4) Im pretty sure that will cause a power creep. And would imbalance the game more.

Edited December 18, 2019 by UltraFlashStar

[Lundorff]

1) Nerf life warden in PVP

 

Cries in Jugg.

[Vertol]

Cries in Jugg.

 

I think its gonna be fine if they nerf other classes and juggs gets their hands on ED tactical.

 

Still, I find these threads pointless because they announced next big patch in february, so we have to wait over 2 months for some class ballance

Edited December 18, 2019 by Vertol

[EmperorRus]

- Nerf Deception burst

- Buff Madness survivability. Most useless spec right now.

- Nerf Concealment sustained #nerf operatives

- Nerf Sniper DCDs or mobility/kiting kit.

- Buff Hatred survivability

- Buff Carnage. Brain dead easy spec, but... a tiny buff would be nice.

- Nerf skanks. Damage output or survivability.

Edited December 18, 2019 by EmperorRus

[limenutpen]

If you nerf these classes you absolutely need to nerf, snipers. Otherwise you will just have the same imbalance that you did in the majority of 5.x.

 

Why Snipers. Snipers need leap and stun lock the opponent, so that they burn him down in 5 secs instead of 10. Sniper are best 1vs1, but I think they still need more DcD to sustain three stealthy classes jumping on them and trying to kill them and burn them all. We still do not have any special tactical.

 

Buff Sniper Please as it is most fun class in the game.

[lord-angelus]

Pt is not a problem. Yes it can do insane damage with tank and a healer, but still melting like butter. What about buffing the dcd's? No don't even mention that. Don't even mention they are still the first targeted class, needs to kite to survive or pocket healer,melting under pressure, you can easily stun or knock back and just move away to 6 metre range. Nerf the meteor brawler and it will be the less winning rate class like 5.0. (%40 according to the combat teams, and that is only with a off-guard dps, tank or a healer)

 

This is the problem with this kinds of this threads. Yes death kneel is op, but deception sustain is terrible and if you remove that sins become useless again.

Proper feebback would be,

"nerf these but add this cause this class is lacking that."

 

And like don't even mention or think about pve you know? Who needs balance there, why would you even think some of the changes you are proposing can make that class utherless useless in raid environments?

 

This is the problem with pvp community. You don't have all the data, just asking for stuff you think that is correct (mostly wrong btw), don't think about any other game mods. Last season was mara snipers and mercs, now this season stealthers, but still I think wr have the best balance. Just a little bit final touches like removing tactical swaps, make the maul spam really force négative, nerf lethality damage little bit, buff the pt dcd's just a little and so on and done. No need for drastic changes

[Gyronamics]

Who in their bright mind, gave mercenaries the Missile Blastback tactical. "Missile Blast knocks its target back and refunds some heat." So let me get this right... You give mercenaries a utility that makes missile blast a root, then you give them a tactical that makes it also a knockback, and hell you also make it so that it refunds heat instead of costing heat so that they can just spam it.... Ya I bet the people that gave sniper phase walk also came up with this dumb tactical. It's not OP it's just dumb.

 

I can sense someone sweatin about being punted across the map like a football. Forcing you to score an own goal in huttball.

 

If I could I'd do that to you. Would be hilarious.

 

Unfortunately it can't be done. The root is on an 8s CD and the knockback is on a 10s CD.

 

The cost of taking it, is not taking another tactical.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Gyronamics

[Giliodor]

10 minute internal cd on Defel Spliced Genes? Lmao. You cannot be serious.

[omaan]

You told us to wait. Wait for the majority of players to get their tacticals, set bonuses, amplifiers, gear. So we did. And it is not apparent. We need balance.

 

1) Nerf Death Knell set bonus (assassin)

Previous: "Whenever you consume a charge of Recklessness you gain a stack of Reckless Slaughter, increasing melee damage done by 10% for 30 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times."

Change: "Whenever you consume a charge of Recklessness you gain a stack of Reckless Slaughter, increasing melee damage done by 5% for 30 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times."

or alternatively just make maul require much more force so that spamming it actually does have a drawback.

 

2) Tactical swapping is no longer allowed once a round starts.

3) Nerf volatile strike tactical (operative)

Previous: "Veiled Strike automatically critically hits targets affected by your unexploded Volatile Substance and triggers it immediately. Dealing damage this way causes your next Backstab to critically hit.

Change: "Veiled Strike immediate triggers your unexploded Volatile Substance. Dealing damage this way causes your next Backstab to critically hit."

4) Nerf Meteor Brawler set bonus (powertech)

Previous: "Activating Energy Shield gives you Firefall for the duration of Energy Shield. During this time, dealing damage with Searing Wave, Flame Burst, Magnetic Blast, Rocket Punch, or Flaming Fist builds up to 7 stacks of Firefall. When Energy Shield ends, it detonates dealing elemental damage to all enemies around that scales with Firefall stacks. After it explodes, your heat-using abilities cost 50% less heat for 20 seconds"

Change: "Activating Explosive fuel gives you Firefall for the duration of Explosive Fuel. During this time, dealing damage with Searing Wave, Flame Burst, Magnetic Blast, Rocket Punch, or Flaming Fist builds up to 4 stacks of Firefall. When Energy Shield ends, it detonates dealing elemental damage to all enemies around that scales with Firefall stacks. After it explodes, your heat-using abilities cost 50% less heat for 20 seconds"

5) Nerf Elemental Convention tactical (sorcerer)

Previous: "Volt Rush triggers Lightning Storm when activated. Chain Lightning gives you Volt Flux, causing your Volt Rush to arc to multiple targets for the next 10 seconds."

Change: "Volt Rush triggers Lightning Storm when activated. This effect can only occur every 5 seconds. Chain Lightning gives you Volt Flux, causing your Volt Rush to arc to multiple targets for the next 10 seconds.

6) Nerf Defel Spliced Genes tactical (marauder)

Previous: "Activating Predation finishes the cooldown of Force Camouflage ."

Change: "Activating Predation finishes the cooldown of Force Camouflage. This effect can only occur once every 10 minutes."

or alternatively: "Activating Saber Ward finishes the cooldown of Force Camouflage." or any other defensive cooldown with has a longer timer. Predation is on a way to short timer.

 

7) Nerf Viral Elements tactical (operative)

 

Previous: "Toxic Haze spreads Toxic Blast’s effect and Lethal Strike does additional damage to all nearby targets affected by Toxic Haze."

Change: "Toxic Haze spreads Toxic Blast’s effect."

 

 

Points to note:

 

Who in their bright mind, gave mercenaries the Missile Blastback tactical. "Missile Blast knocks its target back and refunds some heat." So let me get this right... You give mercenaries a utility that makes missile blast a root, then you give them a tactical that makes it also a knockback, and hell you also make it so that it refunds heat instead of costing heat so that they can just spam it.... Ya I bet the people that gave sniper phase walk also came up with this dumb tactical. It's not OP it's just dumb.

 

May need to nerf Force Bound tactical (warrior) when it comes out. It's a 90% accuracy debuff on a 30 second cooldown. Worse than diversion. But we can wait until the tactical is actually fully in the game before nerfing it.

 

.

 

I fully support all these changes except for camouflage harsh nerf. Now when sins have double vanish and mercs double rocket out and opers debilitator set running away as mara became too hard. They should make cd on reset like: first predation resets camouflage, second not and third yes etc. So only every second predation resets it.

 

Iam also not sure if leth aoe tactical needs to nerfed. It is pretty situational considering decent players always getting out from toxic Haze

 

I would also nerf snipers ambush tactical which makes it instant from 20% dps boost to 10% because in combination with set bonus on laze target snipers can frequently hit 89k

[Lhancelot]

Not to throw a wet blanket on this thread, but you realize "balance" has been heavily requested since 1.0, right? Has this game ever had real, truly proper balance in PVP?

[UglyStik]

1) Why?

 

2) No.

 

3) Don’t know enough about Hatred to judge it accurately, so no comment. Other than playing it for awhile when 6.0 started and some comment from Serenity players.

 

4) Im pretty sure that will cause a power creep. And would imbalance the game more.

Life warden is just a stupid tactical IMO. They should focus on adding depth to the game and options for tool kits rather than have something that lets you survive longer than you should (I mean, maybe make it for tanks only?)

Also about #2 - I don't get why people want to take away depth from the game. The game, and PVP in general, would be better when players can make choices and do different things.

[septru]

1) Nerf life warden in PVP

2) What about allowing tactical swapping for everyone (In combat, obviously) but with a 2 or 3 minute CD? It adds to the game IMO

3) buff hatred OR buff murderous revelation set. Remove the stealth requirement from the 6 piece but change the 4 piece to not include overcharge saber so it doesn't come up as often.

4) Meteor brawler & deathknell are insanely OP but don't break the play style when you nerf them. OR instead of nerfing, why not buff other classes that are struggling?

 

1) I disagree. Life warden is in a good spot. You can be killed through it in certain situations, and it does not reset per round. I adds complexity to a person's game style, they can pop it on before a round if they know they are going to get focused, but they otherwise loose their damage tactical.

 

2) Currently the only classes that can tactical swap while in a game are operatives and assassins, unless somehow unless a non-stealth class runs so much and get out of combats. Tactical swapping while in a match is a very lopsided advantage to stealthers. It is unfair, but I do get your point. It does add some complexity to the game. This is why I proposed tactical swapping only while the match before each round starts:

 

2) Tactical swapping is no longer allowed once a round starts.

 

3) While I agree hatred may need some buffs, I want to wait until the dust settles on nerfs to the above mentioned classes and meta. It's very hard to see how strong/weak hatred sin is when everyone,t heir mother, their father, and their dogs are playing deception sin.

 

4) I'm glad you asked about this, because this was exactly my intention when I proposed my changes. I don't want to nerf a tactical/set bonus to the ground. I don't want to make them nonviable. I don't want to change the playstyle of a tactical/set bonus. I think any purposed changes should be moderate to just effect the raw damage output, or the timer on the amount of times an effect can occur.

 

But here's the most important thing to note. I am nerfing these classes because I think overall it will bring the meta to a more stable level. By nerfing over-performing classes, I hope to bring juggs and pts up. But not only that. I think with these nerfs, healers will become more viable. At this point it's clear that heals are significantly weak in the overall meta because they did not scale to 6.0 like damage did. There are times, in a solo ranked game, where it is better to get another dps backfill than a healer backfill simply because of the fact that a 1 good dps can put out more dps than 1 good healer can put out hps. By bring down the dps ability of overperforming classes, not only do you make weaker dps classes more viable, but you make healers viable in the 6.0 meta too.

[septru]

I fully support all these changes except for camouflage harsh nerf. Now when sins have double vanish and mercs double rocket out and opers debilitator set running away as mara became too hard. They should make cd on reset like: first predation resets camouflage, second not and third yes etc. So only every second predation resets it.

 

You might be right that it might be a little too harsh of a nerf, but what I'm trying to do is decrease the amount of times force camouflage is up in 1 match while not nerfing it so harshly that the tactical becomes nonviable.

 

The problem is with the Relentless utility, Predation is on a 30 second CD. I'd like to see the tactical tied to something on a 1 min CD... or honestly maybe even just give force camo 2 charges but increase the timer of Relentless.

[DavidAtkinson]

You might be right that it might be a little too harsh of a nerf, but what I'm trying to do is decrease the amount of times force camouflage is up in 1 match while not nerfing it so harshly that the tactical becomes nonviable.

 

The problem is with the Relentless utility, Predation is on a 30 second CD. I'd like to see the tactical tied to something on a 1 min CD... or honestly maybe even just give force camo 2 charges but increase the timer of Relentless.

 

For your nerf to work in a fair way, you also need to nerf sins double vanish... Otherwise you solve nothing and just create more IMBalance. Also, you know very well that a Marauder cannot always get instant out of combat and heal up like a sin can.

 

Removing life warden from PVP would be a first step in the direction of balance.