Tactical Switching

[omeru]

Sorcs and snipers get out of combat in a very small percentage of ranked matches. I mean, even mercs, juggs and pts can get out of combat if they just run away from everyone and no one chases them. Sins, ops and maras get out of combat in virtually every single ranked match. If you seriously can't see that difference, you need more experience in ranked.

Glad we agree lol

 

Sorry but sorc and sniper can get out of combat fastest than juggs. You are talking about classes that can teleport 60 meters away so they will be free too run and hide and you claim juggs can get out of combat very easy? Getting out of combat for juggs takes maybe longest and yu are talking about a class that is first target and has no real speed boost to actually out run anyone.

[uppen]

The problem with this is that even if you normalize certain aspects, some of the men are crouching or slumping due to their lack of stand up straight skill, and some have been the tallest in the village for forever and not use to the 18 year old that grew 6 inches over the summer and are now whining that they actually have competition.

 

lets not forget that poor fella on in the end house that had his legs blown off in 'nam. He was supposed to get the crafted jug tactical.

 

Aye, it's a crude analogy, but enough I think to express the case.

[Kawiki]

All of those things are taken into account when balancing classes. Tactical swapping is obviously not.

 

 

 

I'm a former madness sorc main, now a lightning sorc main.

 

 

 

Sorcs and snipers get out of combat in a very small percentage of ranked matches. I mean, even mercs, juggs and pts can get out of combat if they just run away from everyone and no one chases them. Sins, ops and maras get out of combat in virtually every single ranked match. If you seriously can't see that difference, you need more experience in ranked.

 

 

 

Glad we agree lol

 

Lighting Sorc is extremely strong right now. I played madness for years, it's kinda bunk right now. I have no problem with a tactical nerf, but some of the people in this thread are just whining about the OPness of other classes because they don't know how to counter or are used to being at the top of the food chain.

 

As someone who plays several different classes, Sins and OPs can be countered or at least driven off. LTP issue. Obviously when you put several together thats a problem and the real issue.

 

Ranked is a bad place for balancing. Always has been always will be. It's no different then any other season where you'd see 3 mercs and one mara. Or 3 maras and one sorc heal. Or whatever the current meta was/is. It's a great part of the game but population and match making is the real problem.

[Glower]

If every class had equal opportunities.

 

Lets say that we are talking about out of combat healing. It is here for 8 years and it works exactly like "Tactical Switching". Do you also want to remove this? If not, then why start with "Tactical Switching"?

 

Or, well, you can swap the whole gear set if out of combat. Should we dig deeper?

 

If every class had equal opportunities.

Then i would quit SWTOR 8 years ago...

[JediMasterAlex]

Sorry but sorc and sniper can get out of combat fastest than juggs. You are talking about classes that can teleport 60 meters away so they will be free too run and hide and you claim juggs can get out of combat very easy? Getting out of combat for juggs takes maybe longest and yu are talking about a class that is first target and has no real speed boost to actually out run anyone.

 

Of course sorcs and snipers can get out of combat more easily than juggs. My point was that sorcs and snipers very rarely get out of combat, whereas ops and sins do every single round of every single match.

 

Lighting Sorc is extremely strong right now. I played madness for years, it's kinda bunk right now. I have no problem with a tactical nerf, but some of the people in this thread are just whining about the OPness of other classes because they don't know how to counter or are used to being at the top of the food chain.

 

As someone who plays several different classes, Sins and OPs can be countered or at least driven off. LTP issue. Obviously when you put several together thats a problem and the real issue.

 

Ranked is a bad place for balancing. Always has been always will be. It's no different then any other season where you'd see 3 mercs and one mara. Or 3 maras and one sorc heal. Or whatever the current meta was/is. It's a great part of the game but population and match making is the real problem.

 

I don't even know where to start with this. Lightning sorc seems pretty good so far; it is not even close to the level of ops and sins. The relative strength of ops and sins compared to other classes has absolutely nothing to do with "LTP". It's a fact observed by those of us playing ranked and seeing it for ourselves. If you find it so easy to "counter" them, I look forward to you being atop the leaderboards early in season 12. Let us know how that goes.

 

And finally, ranked is the only place in the game where balancing actually matters. It barely matters in pve, and obviously doesn't matter for regs.

 

Lets say that we are talking about out of combat healing. It is here for 8 years and it works exactly like "Tactical Switching". Do you also want to remove this? If not, then why start with "Tactical Switching"?

 

Or, well, you can swap the whole gear set if out of combat. Should we dig deeper?

 

Healing out of combat is clearly intended by the devs. In other words, they account for that when balancing classes for pvp. There is no way they have accounted for the fact that ops and sins can swap tacticals multiple times per round in ranked arenas. It's almost like I've explained this point multiple times.

Edited December 9, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Kawiki]

So are you saying we need to take the combat escape from Sins and Ops now? Sins will go to the bottom rung the next day if that were to happen. They would literally be the first out in every match.

 

So is your problem the escape or the tactical cheese or just Sins/OPs in General? To be honest this is sounding more and more like "my class is not the best anymore".

 

As I said, class stacking has always been an (the) issue. That won't change until you have better match making or a much higher population or more likely both. The way the game is currently there is always going to be the ideal Class/Spec to play.

[JediMasterAlex]

So are you saying we need to take the combat escape from Sins and Ops now? Sins will go to the bottom rung the next day if that were to happen. They would literally be the first out in every match.

 

???

 

That's essentially the opposite of what I'm saying lol

 

So is your problem the escape or the tactical cheese or just Sins/OPs in General? To be honest this is sounding more and more like "my class is not the best anymore".

 

My class is better now than it was before...what are you even talking about?

 

This thread is about tactical swapping mid round during pvp matches.

Edited December 9, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Gyronamics]

There's a lot of whataboutism going on in here which sounds terribly like distractions from the topic.

 

Tactical swapping grants a significant advantage. They are simply that powerful.

 

Before we were limited to medpac abuse, sap and regen abuse.

 

Now tacticals are additionally on the list of things which can be abused mid combat, primarily by stealth classes.

 

Non stealth have to do some unreliable and slow things to get a chance at the same.

[uppen]

I've seen this issue pop up on multiple threads, some with similar arguments for and against, and some new ones.

 

I thought i'd bump this thread up from page 7 to try and keep it all in one place.

 

I still feel that tactical switching, in PvP, needs to be addressed before class balance.

[sdom]

I've seen this issue pop up on multiple threads, some with similar arguments for and against, and some new ones.

 

I thought i'd bump this thread up from page 7 to try and keep it all in one place.

 

I still feel that tactical switching, in PvP, needs to be addressed before class balance.

 

./slap

[uppen]

./slap

 

kinky

 

Yes i saw you were againt this in another thread.

 

I also think charging abilities like 2 cloaks, and it remaining charged when tactical switching, needs addressed before balance. If you want life warden, you get 1 cloak, etc.

 

In any analysis, confounding variables need to be removed, i posted about this further up the thread.

 

Then class balance in PvP will be clearer. There is no point balancing a class first, and then removing tactical switching and charging, because it's likely that the class will be thrown out of balance again.

 

So they balance deception sin or armor set first, ok. Then they remove these other problems and as a result deception sin is thrown into the waste heap. I'd rather that, or some other problem, did not occur due to doing things the wrong way round.

Edited January 9, 2020 by uppen

[sdom]

kinky

 

Yes i saw you were againt this in another thread.

 

I also think charging abilities like 2 cloaks, and it remaining charged when tactical switching, needs addressed before balance. If you want life warden, you get 1 cloak, etc.

 

In any analysis, confounding variables need to be removed, i posted about this further up the thread.

 

Then class balance in PvP will be clearer. There is no point balancing a class first, and then removing tactical switching and charging, because it's likely that the class will be thrown out of balance again.

 

So they balance deception sin or armor set first, ok. Then they remove these other problems and as a result deception sin is thrown into the waste heap. I'd rather that, or some other problem, did not occur due to doing things the wrong way round.

 

I highlighted what you said:

"In any analysis, confounding variables need to be removed" and I agree.

Have you ever considered, you're adding confounding variables by jumping straight to tac slots?

Ones that were not there, when we initially look at class balancing?

 

Every class gets Tac slots. Every class can tac swap out of combat.

I get this system favors stealth classes, and see what you're saying.

But the issue is not - tac slots.

 

Every tac slot (with a few exceptions) - gives you something that means something in pvp combat.

Obviously you're going to notice that, Bioware said when they were first implemented that they were extremely powerful ordinance and intended to be by design - things that let you play your own way.

Thats a cool system and its a shame when this level of customisation and detail has been added to the game, we want to throw it away just because under certain conditions other classes benefit more.

 

The issue with sins is the consistency of damage.

The fact they can kill you in one stun if you can't break or throw a dcd up, and thats bogus - that I grind out max augments, max gear, a set, tac slots, invest time and millions of credits into something that means nothing when someone can hit 8 buttons and my 300k health, more than most ppl have because im min/maxed - gets obliterated. It makes pvp and the whole expac in general. completely pointless if its allowed to continue.

 

It doesn't take any skill to do, where tac slots actually do require a degree of understanding, you can learn the sin rotation in detail on YT in 10mins. I should not be getting trumped by people who aren't using skill for the kill. It blows and if I wasn't as invested in the game as I am. Id have moved on and very nearly did.

 

The same issue is present in operatives running volatile strike / tacticians set / scrapper builds.

Who can also bust out these insane numbers, due to a combination of gear, an unbalanced class system. and 10 mins on YT learning a rotation.

 

The classes themselves just need a nerf.

Its that simple. They won't be broke if they're just capped in dps enough to make 8 button global roations a thing of the past. Doing so would mean it takes skill to play the class again, everyone riding those 8 button combos for pvp will slowly disappear, and we'll all stop getting grief from Biowares apparent inability to have noticed this on the PTS,

 

The issue is not tactical slots, its overall dps.

[uppen]

The dps a Knell sin does may well become less relevant, if they no longer have 4 lives and multiple tacticals. They will become more desirable targets, knowing that they can no longer h2f 3 times in a match. They become glass cannons. it's hard to predict exactly what will occur to the balance of classes if/when tactical switching is removed, especially with specs that can control their combat state.

 

So no, removing tactical switching is not adding confounding variables, it is quite the opposite. It will make the difference in class balance clearer. It may well be that the high dps of a Knell sin is actually needed to make them viabale at all. Nerfing it first would be a mistake, it could lead to them being on par with their hatred counterpart.

 

IMO, remove tactical switching during PvP, then collect data and look at balance and class spread, and buff classes up from the bottom of the pile as nessesary.

 

It would also be nice if Bioware, just this once, bribed Zykken into releasing the Enraged Defence tactical so as to give jugs something they need and make their positions more clear.

Edited January 13, 2020 by uppen

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

The dps a Knell sin does may well become less relevant, if they no longer have 4 lives and multiple tacticals

 

So then you want Deception to be similar to Hatred Sin? Because Hatred Sin has two cloaks, multiple tacticals, guard, shroud, stealth, etc, and it is the worst spec in the game.

[uppen]

So then you want Deception to be similar to Hatred Sin? Because Hatred Sin has two cloaks, multiple tacticals, guard, shroud, stealth, etc, and it is the worst spec in the game.

 

No, I'm trying to avoid that. Hatred needs buffed. What i'm saying is that I wouldn't want deception to be nerfed before seeing how they perform without the tactical switching which makes them stronger than they otherwise would be.

 

Eg. They might nerf deception so that it is on par with other classes, while switching is still here. Then when/if switching is removed it would effectively nerf them again. They may be fine without a nerf at all. I don't want deception on par with hatred, I was making an example of what could happen if nerfs come first.

 

I thought I had made myself clear about not wanting deception on par with hatred, in the second paragraph of the post you quoted.

Edited January 9, 2020 by uppen

[AndriusAjax]

Personally, I like tactical swapping. I think it adds a nice wrinkle to pvp. But I'd like to see all classes also able to do it.

 

So forgive me if it's already been mentioned, but couldn't nonstealth classes be given an ability that allows them to disengage combat? Obviously, if you use it standing right in front of your unstunned opponent, they're going to attack and re-engage you back into combat status. But imagine, say, a Sorc sets their phase walk and when needed, phases to their spot (likely behind los) and then uses their disengage. Now they can Tactical Swap, change gear, and even heal up.

 

As a Merc, you could hit him with a concussion round, blast back, disengage, change tacticals.

 

Mara could cloak, hide behind los, disengage, swap tacs (or just make cloak their disengage).

 

PTs could stun their opponent, use their run ability, hide behind los, disengage, tac swap.

 

Those are just a few examples, but any class could figure out a way to stun/los, and then disengage combat, and find a quick second to change to a new Tactical (that should be mapped on their hot bar). It also gives most classes the ability to pop their 8-second stun and heal in a duel.

 

Trying to think of the cons... Some tacticals/classes may become OP. And the hierarchy of the best dueling classes may change a bit ( but since when has this game been balanced for duels..) but I really don't see how this would break anything. Then again, I'm not familiar with all the tacticals. There could be some classes that could really manipulate this. So you would want it on a 1.5 to 2 minute CD. But really, the only con I can think of is that it would require development team to really think about the Tacticals they make, and how they couple with other tacticals. Generally, the devs seem to shy away from anything that requires too much followup work. So I'm not hopeful. But I think it would be nice if they gave every class a disengage combat ability.

Edited January 9, 2020 by AndriusAjax

[JediMasterAlex]

Trying to think of the cons... Some tacticals/classes may become OP. And the hierarchy of the best dueling classes may change a bit ( but since when has this game been balanced for duels..) but I really don't see how this would break anything. Then again, I'm not familiar with all the tacticals. There could be some classes that could really manipulate this. So you would want it on a 1.5 to 2 minute CD. But really, the only con I can think of is that it would require development team to really think about the Tacticals they make, and how they couple with other tacticals. Generally, the devs seem to shy away from anything that requires too much followup work. So I'm not hopeful. But I think it would be nice if they gave every class a disengage combat ability.

 

I understand where you're going with this...but it really would break ranked pvp. As it is with this stealth meta, it's sins, ops, and sometimes maras just constantly stealthing out and healing to full. Sorcs and mercs are running circles around the map kiting and healing (by necessity). On average, even with all of the new burst, rounds are taking way longer than in previous seasons. If they added what you're proposing, rounds would just go to acid almost every time. Nothing would ever die, because people would just find ways to get out of combat and heal up so frequently.

 

The much better solution is to simply disallow tactical swapping in the first place. It should never have been allowed to happen.

 

If you think about it, tactical swapping is really against the design of tacticals, which was to allow you to customize your character to fit your playstyle. And there are trade offs by design. If you take a survivability tactical, you're losing out on damage. If you take an aoe tactical, you're losing out on single target damage. You're not supposed to be able to have your cake and eat it too. If you think adjustments are necessary, do it in between rounds.

Edited January 9, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[AndriusAjax]

I understand where you're going with this...but it really would break ranked pvp. As it is with this stealth meta, it's sins, ops, and sometimes maras just constantly stealthing out and healing to full. Sorcs and mercs are running circles around the map kiting and healing (by necessity). On average, even with all of the new burst, rounds are taking way longer than in previous seasons. If they added what you're proposing, rounds would just go to acid almost every time. Nothing would ever die, because people would just find ways to get out of combat and heal up so frequently.

 

The much better solution is to simply disallow tactical swapping in the first place. It should never have been allowed to happen.

 

If you think about it, tactical swapping is really against the design of tacticals, which was to allow you to customize your character to fit your playstyle. And there are trade offs by design. If you take a survivability tactical, you're losing out on damage. If you take an aoe tactical, you're losing out on single target damage. You're not supposed to be able to have your cake and eat it too. If you think adjustments are necessary, do it in between rounds.

 

I don't think it would result in too many people healing to full. Sure, it'll be pretty hard to prevent someone from disengaging combat and hitting one button to swap tacticals, but completely losing line of sight and letting your opponent heal to full would only be able to happen if you let them. They're not going to be able to get much of their out-of-combat heal done before people jump them. Not to mention, it should be on a pretty long cool down.

 

And I understand what you're saying about the original idea behind tacticals, but it's really just one extra tier of utility if you think about it. Hot swapping tacticals add an interesting wrinkle to combat. It's a mechanism that can benefit savvy players, and I'm always for adding mechanisms that advanced players can leverage.

Edited January 9, 2020 by AndriusAjax

[Storm-Cutter]

 

While I agree that tactical swapping is probably an easier fix than balancing oper and sin, and thus it should be done immediately, I doubt that it will fix the OPness of opers and sins. Something has to be done about balancing the classes.

 

I never understood the introduction of ( combat) Amps and Tacticals. - If class balancing was hard before it must be even more difficult now.

 

However, clever tactical swap-outs will never make up for weird matchmaking choices, skewed skills distribution and the number of clueless individuals in many matches.

 

I don't want cookie-cutter classes, but there should be a baseline for DPS, heals and mitigation. if you have stealth or off heals or an additional DCD ( for instance) then you should be knocked back in something else proportionately. - Adding tacticals and what you can do with them Out of Combat just muddied the water further.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Storm-Cutter

[TrixxieTriss]

I never understood the introduction of ( combat) Amps and Tacticals. - If class balancing was hard before it must be even more difficult now.

 

However, clever tactical swap-outs will never make up for weird matchmaking choices, skewed skills distribution and the number of clueless individuals in many matches.

 

I don't want cookie-cutter classes, but there should be a baseline for DPS, heals and mitigation. if you have stealth or off heals or an additional DCD ( for instance) then you should be knocked back in something else proportionately. - Adding tacticals and what you can do with them Out of Combat just muddied the water further.

 

Part of me thinks they did all of this to hide the fact they can’t balance. By muddying the waters with multiple gear sets, tactical’s, tactical swapping snd amplifiers, it means they never have to properly balance classes.

What’s sad, is even with the attempt to muddy the waters, they still can’t get the classes balanced close enough to confuse us. Which begs the question, how much worse would class balance be this time if it was under the old system because I wouldn’t be surprised if many of the devs had moved on or gone over to Anthem.

[Floplag]

For me, the problem isnt the ability to swap tacticals, its the fact that some classes (Ops and sins) can control this by dropping combat whereas no one else can do this basically on demand. This is a large advantage if used correctly.

 

Either all should have that ability, which is virtually impossible as no one else can simply drop combat thru a vanish type mechanic, or none should.

 

I dont hate the concept at all, it would be a nice thing for all to have to add some advanced management to the game, but i just dont see how they could do that with the given class skillsets aside from some timer style mechanism.

 

Bottom line here doing it before the gate opens anyone can do so it should be limited to that timeframe although i wish there was a better answer.

[AndriusAjax]

Either all should have that ability, which is virtually impossible as no one else can simply drop combat thru a vanish type mechanic, or none should.

 

Why can't they make a new ability for nonstealth classes that drops combat? A new ability with a 1 to 2m CD. If you do it right in front of an opponent, they can simply attack you and bring you back into combat. But if done smartly, you can los, kite, stun, etc, drop combat, then quickly swap tacticals and reengage.

 

I'm 99.9% positive that won't happen lol. But I like tactical swapping. I think it adds technique to gameplay.

Edited January 14, 2020 by AndriusAjax

[Storm-Cutter]

Part of me thinks they did all of this to hide the fact they can’t balance. By muddying the waters with multiple gear sets, tactical’s, tactical swapping snd amplifiers, it means they never have to properly balance classes.

What’s sad, is even with the attempt to muddy the waters, they still can’t get the classes balanced close enough to confuse us. Which begs the question, how much worse would class balance be this time if it was under the old system because I wouldn’t be surprised if many of the devs had moved on or gone over to Anthem.

 

There have been a few attempts to rebalance classes before, and have thrown up new problems. I think any hope of proper analysis and adjustment is gone.

 

We have the hand we're dealt. You can play any class and any role. Some people swap, others persevere, some people can make the worst classes shine, while others can still make a hash of OP classes ( like me ) Most PVP matches are decided on tactics, skill, the matchmaker and a bit of luck.

 

Tactical swapping is gonna be a thing for a long time to come. It's part of the toolkit now. - I can't see any changes any time soon. For the Devs, PVP tweaking is mainly in the 'Too difficult' category.

[Floplag]

Why can't they make a new ability for nonstealth classes that drops combat? A new ability with a 1 to 2m CD. If you do it right in front of an opponent, they can simply attack you and bring you back into combat. But if done smartly, you can los, kite, stun, etc, drop combat, then quickly swap tacticals and reengage.

 

I'm 99.9% positive that won't happen lol. But I like tactical swapping. I think it adds technique to gameplay.

 

How would that make sense though? Not everyone can vanish and disappear so what, you just are unattackable for a bit? I think that might actually make it worse.

If you want to go that route then simple give everyone a swap tactical ability that can be used at any time in or out of combat, once per round or once every few minutes.

As said i like the mechanic itself, but it lends itself to steathers in a significantly unbalanced way currently. due to the in combat aspect of it.

[AndriusAjax]

How would that make sense though? Not everyone can vanish and disappear so what, you just are unattackable for a bit?

 

No, not at all. It would just be an ability that drops combat. Say a merc uses theirs, but they're standing right in front of you, they wasted it. You would just continue hammering them and they probably never got the tac swap off, because the moment they disengage combat, you reengage them. No immunity.

 

But if they're smart... they'll stun you and/ or rocket back, use the ability, and quickly swap tacticals before you attack them again. It wouldn't be anything like you're imaging. Dropping combat wouldn't mean they're immune to it, just disengaged so they could change gear. As soon as someone hits them, they're back in combat. Friendly heals would make it difficult, and that's part of it. As a stealth, I can't swap tacticals when I cloak out but stay in combat due to friendly heals, or otherwise.

 

As said i like the mechanic itself, but it lends itself to steathers in a significantly unbalanced way currently. due to the in combat aspect of it.

 

Completely agree. I think it adds a layer of strategy. But yeah, it can't just be for stealth classes. So this proposed idea would allow nonstealth classes opportunities to swap them.

Edited January 15, 2020 by AndriusAjax