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Tactical Switching


uppen

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Not sure if this has already been mentioned as I couldn't be bothered searching.

 

.......... You know, I'm almost afraid to suggest this. Not only because i'll be shooting myself in the foot, but because I may recieve some measure of resentment for mentioning it. But .....

 

Please lock the Character Sheet when players enter a warzone or an Arena.

 

(Deletepostdeletepostdeletepost .... fek it....click)

Edited by uppen
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I've been doing it since I had 2 to swap.

 

Surely that's the point. Need a few % more defense or DPS or heals? swap 'em out.

 

IIRC you can't switch while in combat, so it's more in respawn or if you get a lull in the fight.

 

Seems legitimate. - Since you can also choose any ability off the bar to trigger as and when you wish, swap out relics and stims and such as well, why not tacticals?

 

US football teams have varying setups for offense and defense ( for instance) so it seems not a great stretch to also do it in PVP.

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I've been doing it since I had 2 to swap.

 

Surely that's the point. Need a few % more defense or DPS or heals? swap 'em out.

 

IIRC you can't switch while in combat, so it's more in respawn or if you get a lull in the fight.

 

Seems legitimate. - Since you can also choose any ability off the bar to trigger as and when you wish, swap out relics and stims and such as well, why not tacticals?

 

US football teams have varying setups for offense and defense ( for instance) so it seems not a great stretch to also do it in PVP.

 

I never really had a problem before as say 'relic switching' was not as powerful as the options available in the current game. However, recently, the advantages this gives to classes able to control when they are either in or out of combat (sin and oper) is too much to ignore. Especially when the tactically stackable skills such as force cloak remain stacked upon switching.

 

And .... sigh ... what the hell i'll say it ...... Life Warden I love and hate you.

 

Edit - I mostly main a Sin.

Edited by uppen
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I never really had a problem before as say 'relic switching' was not as powaerful as the options available in the current game. However, recently, the advantages this gives to classes able to control when they are either in or out of combat (sin and oper) is too much to ignore. Especially when the tactically stackable skills such as force cloak remain stacked upon switching.

 

And .... sigh ... what the hell i'll say it ...... Life Warden I love and hate you.

 

Edit - I mostly main a Sin.

 

The fact that PVP has turned into a stealth junk show is a much bigger problem than the ability to swap tacticals out of combat...

 

You are just trying to divert the attention from the real problem in PVP .

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I'm not trying to divert a 'swtorpvp common knowledge' problem that's probably impossible to divert, I mean why try.

 

And I do agree that they (sin more than oper due to 2 cloaks, oper kinda ok imo) are sweetly positioned at the top of the food chain, which amplifies the problem I am attempting to bring attention to. But class balance is something that may be easier if tactical and maybe relic switching were removed from the equation, due to the possibilities they present to classes that can control their combat status.

 

IMO tactical switching is more of a problem than who is on top in class balance (which changes on every significant update) as switching tacticals is, and can only ever be, favourable to classes with 1 or more vanishes.

 

 

 

Edit ... Infact how can they hope to balance classes, or even take any meaningful data, when tactical switching exists? ... How can they take into account the 2 cloak charge>dps tac switch>cloak>life warden>cloak >insert whatever u like here , or any other combo u can think of, when they're trying to balance that class based on their current skill and gear set alone. Locking the Character Sheet, IMO, might be a good place to start, then maybe we can really see where the classes stand.

 

Perhaps the reason PvP is seeing more stealthers has more than just class balance to blame.

Edited by uppen
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ATM I have made room for tacticals around my cloak keybind and on my hotbars, because as long as tactical switching is a thing I am going to switch to one of them at any time i decide, if I have the whim to do so.

 

As long as this exists, 90% of the population are going to have a skewed representation of the actual strength of those stealth classes alone. And this will result in almost everyone, it seems, believing without a doubt that class balance is solely to blame.

 

And when they realise whats actually happening they will probably go and log onto, or roll, a stealther. Because who wants to be at a disadvantage, right? The eventual outcome on the class populations is inevitable.

 

Before class balance can be approached tactical switching in PvP needs to either be available to, or restricted from, every class in the game in equal measures.

Edited by uppen
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> Sins talking about tactical switching.

 

> Best jugg tactical is only available via crafting

 

> Jugg tactical requires insane mat cost

 

> Jugg tactical schematic not available every week

 

> Sins get burst set bonus by day 3 and all their tacticals

 

Im not even mad

Edited by RACATW
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> Sins talking about tactical switching.

 

> Best jugg tactical is only available via crafting

 

> Jugg tactical requires insane mat cost

 

> Jugg tactical schematic not available every week

 

> Sins get burst set bonus by day 3 and all their tacticals

 

Im not even mad

 

Yeah that jug tactical is something to envy. I wonder how the flow of class hatred in the game and forums will evolve when when those are in every jugs arsenal. I want one! I missed a couple of the weekends deals recently, are they even in game yet?

Edited by uppen
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Yeah that jug tactical is something to envy. I wonder how the flow of class hatred in the game and forums will evolve when when those are in every jugs arsenal. I want one! I missed a couple of the weekends deals recently, are they even in game yet?

 

As of a week ago, no, and they'll probably be extremely rare even when a schematic appears.

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As of a week ago, no, and they'll probably be extremely rare even when a schematic appears.

 

3 out of the 4 necessary pieces are out. Those three pieces (I believe) were being sold at 50mill each. It's gonna be horrible. Probably gotta get nerfed alongside Firefall... but not the point.

 

As long as this exists, 90% of the population are going to have a skewed representation of the actual strength of those stealth classes alone. And this will result in almost everyone, it seems, believing without a doubt that class balance is solely to blame.

 

And when they realise whats actually happening they will probably go and log onto, or roll, a stealther. Because who wants to be at a disadvantage, right? The eventual outcome on the class populations is inevitable.

 

Before class balance can be approached tactical switching in PvP needs to either be available to, or restricted from, every class in the game in equal measures.

 

While I agree that tactical swapping is probably an easier fix than balancing oper and sin, and thus it should be done immediately, I doubt that it will fix the OPness of opers and sins. Something has to be done about balancing the classes.

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3 out of the 4 necessary pieces are out. Those three pieces (I believe) were being sold at 50mill each. It's gonna be horrible. Probably gotta get nerfed alongside Firefall... but not the point.

 

 

If you mean ED will be horrible, ED heals for about half of what it is supposed to, due to the advent of 6.0 and broken scaling. They might get around to fixing it in about 2 years, but probably not anytime soon.

Edited by RACATW
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I dont see a problem by switching a tactical while out of combat. its a bonus to stealth classes or classes that are able to get out of fight more often than other (Sorcs, Maras, Slingers)

 

the problem that i see, is abusing the charges bug on every tactical or set item.....

Just by loading up the charge and switch tac or set...

 

THAT sucks

Assassin with 2 cloaks 2 ports + x tac

Ops with 2 hardstuns, 2 ports + x tac

PTs with 2 harpuns + x

etc....

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I'm not trying to divert a 'swtorpvp common knowledge' problem that's probably impossible to divert, I mean why try.

 

And I do agree that they (sin more than oper due to 2 cloaks, oper kinda ok imo) are sweetly positioned at the top of the food chain, which amplifies the problem I am attempting to bring attention to. But class balance is something that may be easier if tactical and maybe relic switching were removed from the equation, due to the possibilities they present to classes that can control their combat status.

 

IMO tactical switching is more of a problem than who is on top in class balance (which changes on every significant update) as switching tacticals is, and can only ever be, favourable to classes with 1 or more vanishes.

 

 

 

Edit ... Infact how can they hope to balance classes, or even take any meaningful data, when tactical switching exists? ... How can they take into account the 2 cloak charge>dps tac switch>cloak>life warden>cloak >insert whatever u like here , or any other combo u can think of, when they're trying to balance that class based on their current skill and gear set alone. Locking the Character Sheet, IMO, might be a good place to start, then maybe we can really see where the classes stand.

 

Perhaps the reason PvP is seeing more stealthers has more than just class balance to blame.

 

Yesterday I had a a game in corellia square as a mara vs a team that had 2 sins and in round 1 I had to vanish and go regen with the 2 sins MOST LIKELY after me. SInce I knew they are coming, I quickly swapped to life warden and I instantly got sapped from stealth by both of them. As you know how broken OP sin dps is.. I had to quickly start kiting them and the ONLY reason I managed to stay alive until one of my team mates came to finish off one sin who had lower HP, was due to life warden. The other one was still on me, but I got pulled away by our sorc dps and could vanish again to heal.

 

So as you can see, life warden gave me a chance to stay alive vs FOTM broken classes with idiotic DPS that basically takes more than half of your HP away with just a few hits.

 

Yes of course the above mentioned FOTM classes can use life warden the same way as any class with vanish can, but the main problem here isn't tactical swapping when out of combat, the problem is that some classes are just way ahead of others in terms of DPS, and on top of that, they can guard(cause bio thoughts its cool), can taunt, can vanish 2 times and get instant out of combat and heal up, while the other class can self heal itself into oblivion with defenses that sometimes feel like they are up 24/7.

 

No one here is unreasonable. We want to have viable classes in ranked so that you don't see 70% FOTM in que with the other classes being in the remaining 30%. End of 5.0 was closer to this target with SIns in need of some DPS love, but not to the extent they got now. Oh well.. 3 years and maybe we gonna get a fix, or some other class becomes fotm. PT instant one shot kill every 40 seconds.

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In Warzones?

 

How about no? This is the only thing i really like in 6.0 gearing and i dont even play on my dps sin or operative...

 

Ranked arenas and/or regular arenas? Do whatever you want with them.

 

Btw they are Tacticals not Staticals or Stagnaticals. :p And you cannot plan your tactics unless you know what to expect most of the time.

Edited by Glower
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In Warzones?

 

How about no? This is the only thing i really like in 6.0 gearing and i dont even play on my dps sin or operative...

 

Ranked arenas and/or regular arenas? Do whatever you want with them.

 

Btw they are Tacticals not Staticals or Stagnaticals. :p And you cannot plan your tactics unless you know what to expect most of the time.

 

If every class had equal opportunities to swap tacticals, that would be fine. The fundamental problem is that stealth classes have an unfair advantage, because they can swap tacticals every time they stealth out of combat. Unless Bioware explicitly took tactical swapping into account when balancing, which they obviously didn't, it should not be allowed.

 

Any arguments that claim it enhances the complexities of pvp are totally irrelevant as long as only two or three classes are the primary beneficiaries of it.

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If every class had equal opportunities to swap tacticals, that would be fine. The fundamental problem is that stealth classes have an unfair advantage, because they can swap tacticals every time they stealth out of combat. Unless Bioware explicitly took tactical swapping into account when balancing, which they obviously didn't, it should not be allowed.

 

Any arguments that claim it enhances the complexities of pvp are totally irrelevant as long as only two or three classes are the primary beneficiaries of it.

 

Totally agree with this statement.

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Not sure if this has already been mentioned as I couldn't be bothered searching.

 

.......... You know, I'm almost afraid to suggest this. Not only because i'll be shooting myself in the foot, but because I may recieve some measure of resentment for mentioning it. But .....

 

Please lock the Character Sheet when players enter a warzone or an Arena.

 

(Deletepostdeletepostdeletepost .... fek it....click)

 

Tactical switching gives opers/sins big and unfair advantage over other specs. They can keep their dps, then swap to defensive tacticals, then swap back and take big advantage. This must be removed. Why should only stealth classes have this advantage? They already have opportunity to run away from enemies and regen full hp lol

Edited by omaan
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I think we should remove all talents/tactical that give each class an unfair advantage if used correctly.

 

So, lets remove off healing, off guarding, off taunting, phase walk, invulnerability bubbles, force speed etc etc etc.

 

This thread seems like a lot of crying from former fotm classes (some of which have been basically near top of the food chain since 1.0) but maybe that is just me.

 

There are 3 classes that can break combat at will (if it actually does break combat since this has been bugged forever). There are two classes that can phase and if used correctly can break combat although there is some waiting involved, though one of the classes can essentially heal to full via off healing. All range should be able to effectively kite. My point is Sins an opers can be countered if YOU use your class talents correctly.

 

Maras probably are feeling the pain the most now because they actually have a counter class for the first time in their history.

 

All that being said switching tacticals should be limited to the start/death area.

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Lets say I want to find out what the average difference in height between the 10 adults living on my street is.

 

I line them all and and begin to measure, I approackh the third guy and he is standing on a box.

 

The box is a confounding variable.

 

Now, this box needs to either be removed from the equation. Or it needs to be normalised for so that its effect on the data collection, analysis and conclusion are essentially cancelled out. Otherwise I will end up drawing the wrong conclusion.

 

You can remove the confounding variable by removing the box, and then measuring the man.

You can measure the effect the box has on its own, then measure the box and man as a whole, and subtract one from the other to normalise the data.

Or, you can normalise the entire data set by giving all 10 men that same size box to stand on.

 

What you CAN NOT do is say " 'ach just let him have the box he's a short arse anyways" and get out your measuring tape. You will have a skewed result that does not represent what you are trying to measure in the first place.

 

Tactical/s switching are confounding variables in the data collection process for class balancing. And a whole heap of them have been dropped into the mix.

Any meaningful data regarding class balance can not be taken until they are either normalised for (give them to everyone in equal measure, their effects are too widespread to try to subtract), or removed (lock the character sheet so they can not be switched inside of PvP environments).

Edited by uppen
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It should lock your tactical when gate opens and you should be able to adjust for next round till gate opens but we are talking about bw here not gonna happen too much work for their bad developer team i am sure they will create bg bugs with this simple change alone :) Edited by omeru
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Lets say I want to find out what the average difference in height between the 10 adults living on my street is.

 

I line them all and and begin to measure, I approackh the third guy and he is standing on a box.

 

The box is a confounding variable.

 

Now, this box needs to either be removed from the equation. Or it needs to be normalised for so that its effect on the data collection, analysis and conclusion are essentially cancelled out. Otherwise I will end up drawing the wrong conclusion.

 

You can remove the confounding variable by removing the box, and then measuring the man.

You can measure the effect the box has on its own, then measure the box and man as a whole, and subtract one from the other to normalise the data.

Or, you can normalise the entire data set by giving all 10 men that same size box to stand on.

 

What you CAN NOT do is say " 'ach just let him have the box he's a short arse anyways" and get out your measuring tape. You will have a skewed result that does not represent what you are trying to measure in the first place.

 

Tactical/s switching are confounding variables in the data collection process for class balancing. And a whole heap of them have been dropped into the mix.

Any meaningful data regarding class balance can not be taken until they are either normalised for (give them to everyone in equal measure, their effects are too widespread to try to subtract), or removed (lock the character sheet so they can not be switched inside of PvP environments).

 

The problem with this is that even if you normalize certain aspects, some of the men are crouching or slumping due to their lack of stand up straight skill, and some have been the tallest in the village for forever and not use to the 18 year old that grew 6 inches over the summer and are now whining that they actually have competition.

Edited by Kawiki
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I think we should remove all talents/tactical that give each class an unfair advantage if used correctly.

 

So, lets remove off healing, off guarding, off taunting, phase walk, invulnerability bubbles, force speed etc etc etc.

 

All of those things are taken into account when balancing classes. Tactical swapping is obviously not.

 

This thread seems like a lot of crying from former fotm classes (some of which have been basically near top of the food chain since 1.0) but maybe that is just me.

 

I'm a former madness sorc main, now a lightning sorc main.

 

There are 3 classes that can break combat at will (if it actually does break combat since this has been bugged forever). There are two classes that can phase and if used correctly can break combat although there is some waiting involved, though one of the classes can essentially heal to full via off healing. All range should be able to effectively kite. My point is Sins an opers can be countered if YOU use your class talents correctly.

 

Sorcs and snipers get out of combat in a very small percentage of ranked matches. I mean, even mercs, juggs and pts can get out of combat if they just run away from everyone and no one chases them. Sins, ops and maras get out of combat in virtually every single ranked match. If you seriously can't see that difference, you need more experience in ranked.

 

All that being said switching tacticals should be limited to the start/death area.

 

Glad we agree lol

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