So TOXIC In Ranked Warzone Devs Need To Look Into This

[TrixxieTriss]

I happened to be on the fleet the other day and 3 ranked players in chat were being very toxic towards each other and against a certain guild.

I don’t just mean banter or a bit of sledging. I’m talking about full on toxicity and saying certain people are so bad they should never queue or even play regs. Two of them were openly fighting and insulting each other that it drowned out chat.

 

Now, I don’t know who these players are or if they are good or not, but this sort of chat on the fleet only hurts rank’s perception of being a toxic cesspool.

5 mins later they were complaining the queue had died and that it was all the bad players fault.

 

Honestly, sometimes the community is it’s own worst enemy. You all say toxicity is a thing and you just need to grow a thick skin. But you only have yourselves to blame for lack of participation from people. And not just people who you think are not good enough. There are many who are good enough and just won’t step into ranked because they don’t like the abuse that happens around them.

I see it in regs too. As soon as some loud mouth starts abusing people, players start leaving the match because of it and it can kill the queue there too if there are too few players to sustain the abuse each match.

 

What ever your opinion about what is toxic in ranked, the issue is it’s there in some form or other and what you think is fine, many others don’t. If you want the people to play against, think before you open your mouth and spout some rubbish about how good they are or insulting them for what they did wrong or telling them to go back to regs.

Next time, try talking to them in a private chat to see if you can help them get better. Maybe spend some time with them outside of ranked to duel or run some custom non ranked guild vs guild matches or use the Rishi Strong hold.

 

Only the players can grow ranked and guide new players to be better. If you aren’t willing to change and do that, then you sow what you reap.

Edited August 15, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[Raansu]

Totally ridiculous. "Cussing" at someone is automatically "toxic"?

 

So you just walk around public with a foul mouth? Cussing people out and just outright being a terrible person within a civilized society? Good to know.

[JediMasterAlex]

We both know the kinds of things were talking about here, and you are splitting hairs as it were and hiding behind the obvious.

Telling someone they are terrible using more more colorful wording, or that the should be intimate with a family member or themselves, or playing in a burning building, of the usual favorite please never queue again... none of this would rise to the level of toxic to you? really? If none of this does then by all means tell me what you think does?

 

I don't know what you're talking about. I've already agreed that some things are undeniably toxic. Others are clearly not toxic. But there are still other phrases that some view as toxic and others don't.

 

But for one of your examples, "please stop queueing," no, I don't think that's toxic. That's a polite request usually made of someone who is actively ruining games by playing unacceptably poorly repeatedly.

 

Honestly, sometimes the community is it’s own worst enemy. You all say toxicity is a thing and you just need to grow a thick skin. But you only have yourselves to blame for lack of participation from people. And not just people who you think are not good enough. There are many who are good enough and just won’t step into ranked because they don’t like the abuse that happens around them.

 

Again, this is a reasonable take. If you want to say people should be less toxic in ranked, I'm happy to agree with that. I've never said that being toxic is a good thing. My only point is that people shouldn't face suspensions or bans from Bioware for it.

 

But overall, I maintain that toxicity in ranked isn't a significant problem. The people posting about it on the forums mostly don't even play ranked.

 

So you just walk around public with a foul mouth? Cussing people out and just outright being a terrible person within a civilized society? Good to know.

 

What? lol

Edited August 16, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[laiboch]

That has never been my experience of solo ranked. And I play solo ranked virtually every day.

 

So did I and I have gone back a few times to see if things have changed, and they haven't. Perhaps you have better experences or you are just fanboi'ing it up.

 

Urban dictionary is literally one person's opinion... And "extremely harsh, malicious, or harmful" also demand interpretation when it comes to particular potential "toxic" phrases. Ultimately such definitions are not very helpful, People will still disagree on what qualifies as "toxic."

 

So disputing a definition calling it opinion by presenting your opinion... Amusing..

 

I've said it several times and I'll say it again: Bioware can do whatever it wants. When I talk about free speech, I have never implied that Bioware is bound by it. All I ever say is that Bioware would do well to follow the principles of free speech as much as possible.

 

Then why bring it up? Speech is limited in the game and on the forums as per the code of conduct everyone agrees to so to use it as an argument is pointless and has no value in the conversation.

[JediMasterAlex]

So disputing a definition calling it opinion by presenting your opinion... Amusing..

 

That is literally my point lol. There is no agreed upon definition of toxicity in the way it's used in modern internet parlance.

 

Then why bring it up? Speech is limited in the game and on the forums as per the code of conduct everyone agrees to so to use it as an argument is pointless and has no value in the conversation.

 

I've already said it a million times. Have you not read the thread? I'm talking about what Bioware SHOULD do, not what they are legally obligated to do.

 

The principles of free speech should ideally apply everywhere. Certain restrictions in certain places obviously have practical value. But in a game, there is no reason whatsoever to restrict speech just because it's perceived as "toxic" other than to prevent hurt feelings. That is not a good enough reason to silence people. Furthermore, who gets to decide what is toxic and what isn't, one person at Bioware? The costs of such a system would outweigh any possible benefit, because it would inevitably stifle free expression of ideas.

[Seterade]

Urban dictionary is literaly written by opininated people. it's like wikipedia cept you don't have to provide any proof whatsoever. you should see some of the definitions on that site.

[laiboch]

TThe principles of free speech should ideally apply everywhere. Certain restrictions in certain places obviously have practical value. But in a game, there is no reason whatsoever to restrict speech just because it's perceived as "toxic" other than to prevent hurt feelings. That is not a good enough reason to silence people. Furthermore, who gets to decide what is toxic and what isn't, one person at Bioware? The costs of such a system would outweigh any possible benefit, because it would inevitably stifle free expression of ideas.

 

I agree that it should be everywhere, but opinions aside the guidelines do spell out what they view as negative or toxic speech and as such those are the rules we follow. Personally I think people should be able to say what they want, hence is why there is an ignore feature in the game, but again my opinion is irrelevant in light of the code of conduct put in place.

 

However toxic behavior even if you personally do not see it as such has a detrimental effect on who will and will not participate in a given game mode. PVP just happens to bring out the worst in people in many cases and we loose many players because of it. It would seem beneficial to have more people being friendly and inviting as to build the number of players in Ranked then to just excuse those being toxic and driving people away.

[TrixxieTriss]

Again, this is a reasonable take. If you want to say people should be less toxic in ranked, I'm happy to agree with that. I've never said that being toxic is a good thing. My only point is that people shouldn't face suspensions or bans from Bioware for it.

 

But overall, I maintain that toxicity in ranked isn't a significant problem. The people posting about it on the forums mostly don't even play ranked.

 

It doesn’t take more than a few people to tarnish people’s views or experiences in matches. The example I gave regarding the fleet chat is a prime example of how 3 people make the ranked community look overly toxic,

The same can be said with the perception of wintrading being rampant that people won’t play.

 

I know when there aren’t many people in the queue and you have 1 or 2 toxic people out of 12 - 20, then the chances are you are going to be in multiple matches with them and it will seem that ranked is toxic. This can become worse when other players stay quiet and let it just happen or some of toxic behaviour spreads between people.

 

It really is up to the community to change this behaviour. If some of you see someone being harassed or bullied by toxic people, maybe private message them and offer some support or some pointers to encourage them to keep playing. Or even stand up to the bully who is being toxic, because at the end of the day, that’s what these toxic people are, bullies. And they are a core source for people to say ranked is toxic.

 

The few toxic players have tarnished rank’s reputation and if the community won’t or can’t police itself and take some positive action to change this perception, then the other option is Bioware step in.

Look at it this way. Isn’t it better to get rid of the toxic people and actually have more people feel comfortable playing or continue with the status quo and have less players and matchmaking and ELO stops working (more than it already has).

 

If most players had the same zero tolerance attitude towards toxicity as we have towards cheating, then things would be in a better place and the community would be healthier.

[Tharianus]

Just Put them on ignore List - Problem solved...

 

This will be even worse for them because you cannot communicate with them anymore (FOCUS target) so those kiddies rage even more ^^

 

Well the Real ranked community left long ago ;-) there are only a Bunch of wintrading, hacking kids left.. so you should not bother anymore ;-)

 

Long time ranked Player since 8v8 ranked

Edited August 16, 2019 by Tharianus

[JediMasterAlex]

I agree that it should be everywhere, but opinions aside the guidelines do spell out what they view as negative or toxic speech and as such those are the rules we follow. Personally I think people should be able to say what they want, hence is why there is an ignore feature in the game, but again my opinion is irrelevant in light of the code of conduct put in place.

 

That's fine, but remember, the original post in this thread is asking for harsher and more frequent actions to be taken against people being "toxic" in ranked. I've simply been arguing against that notion.

 

It really is up to the community to change this behaviour. If some of you see someone being harassed or bullied by toxic people, maybe private message them and offer some support or some pointers to encourage them to keep playing. Or even stand up to the bully who is being toxic, because at the end of the day, that’s what these toxic people are, bullies. And they are a core source for people to say ranked is toxic.

 

I've done this a few times when I think people are being unfairly berated. But it's relatively rare that someone gets yelled at and they aren't playing very poorly. What's worse is that many such people are in intense denial and insist that they're playing great when they get globaled game after game. Anyway, that doesn't excuse the particular language that people sometimes choose to use, but I'm just saying.

 

Look at it this way. Isn’t it better to get rid of the toxic people and actually have more people feel comfortable playing or continue with the status quo and have less players and matchmaking and ELO stops working (more than it already has).

 

No, it wouldn't be better. That's exactly what I've been trying to say. I'd rather have ranked completely die than have Bioware start policing the language we use in it. Competitive pvp in any online game requires you to be able to deal with some degree of "toxic" chat. Furthermore, I've said it before, if someone comes into ranked and thinks it's too toxic for them, they don't belong in ranked, and if that leads to a smaller population I'm totally fine with that.

 

The cost to free expression is far, far greater than any benefit you'd see from banning all the "toxic" people. No one should be given the power to scroll through chat conversations and pick out who they think is "toxic" and who isn't. We don't need Big Brother deciding for us what people are allowed to think and say.

[Delani]

Just Put them on ignore List - Problem solved...

 

This will be even worse for them because you cannot communicate with them anymore (FOCUS target) so those kiddies rage even more ^^

 

Well the Real ranked community left long ago ;-) there are only a Bunch of wintrading, hacking kids left.. so you should not bother anymore ;-)

 

Long time ranked Player since 8v8 ranked

 

I feel like 8v8 ranked isnt as good as people make it out to be but ok. The 4v4 deathmatch is a perfect system and its exactly what WoW does. People are truly tested to see how well they know their class and how good they are at it. In 8v8 ranked I feel like a lot of games would end in stale mate.

[Delani]

No one in this thread is talking about granked. Granked isn't toxic; granked is dead.

 

Granked shouldnt be dead, removing the loss requirement for granked kinda killed the scene that was active.

[Rion_Starkiller]

A lot of people in this thread don't know the difference between "toxic" behavior and actual griefing. Edited August 16, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[Floplag]

I don't know what you're talking about. I've already agreed that some things are undeniably toxic. Others are clearly not toxic. But there are still other phrases that some view as toxic and others don't.

 

But for one of your examples, "please stop queueing," no, I don't think that's toxic. That's a polite request usually made of someone who is actively ruining games by playing unacceptably poorly repeatedly.

 

 

 

Again, this is a reasonable take. If you want to say people should be less toxic in ranked, I'm happy to agree with that. I've never said that being toxic is a good thing. My only point is that people shouldn't face suspensions or bans from Bioware for it.

 

But overall, I maintain that toxicity in ranked isn't a significant problem. The people posting about it on the forums mostly don't even play ranked.

 

 

 

What? lol

 

OK you are either being evasive, trolling, or ignorant... either way im getting off this ride.

[JediMasterAlex]

OK you are either being evasive, trolling, or ignorant... either way im getting off this ride.

 

I am none of those things. It's almost as if this is a nuanced topic without black and white answers. Imagine that. If you actually read all of my posts, my positions are quite clear. I've grown weary of repeating them over and over.

Edited August 16, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Raansu]

I feel like 8v8 ranked isnt as good as people make it out to be but ok. The 4v4 deathmatch is a perfect system and its exactly what WoW does. People are truly tested to see how well they know their class and how good they are at it. In 8v8 ranked I feel like a lot of games would end in stale mate.

 

Its so perfect that devs over at blizzard regret implementing arenas.

[Floplag]

I am none of those things. It's almost as if this is a nuanced topic without black and white answers. Imagine that. If you actually read all of my posts, my positions are quite clear. I've grown weary of repeating them over and over.

 

Only it isnt. You are trying deperately to make it gray, but its really rather simple. The real trick to this though is that you dont get to make that decision about what is or isnt toxic for anyone else.

If its gray, its going to be toxic to some people whether you think it is or not.

The solution is simple, stay out of the gray.

[Rolodome]

For the most part I am of the opinion of just letting the insults flow in ranked, just about anything is tolerated in the verbal/written regard. Its supposed to be at least a somewhat competitive environment where tensions are allowed to rise. There are in theory no victims and only volunteers.

 

Words can surely hurt, but if you shield yourself constantly from hurtful words you tend to just make yourself more susceptible to them in the long run. Sometimes insults thrown at you are just harsh truths, which in that case perhaps consider what is being said.

 

The only thing I ever found intolerable about the ranked community is how some tended to get triggered to the extent that they would DOX or DDOS... although that era is seemingly in the past. Having your home office DDOSed for a day for just being better at the game or unlikable/hated for whatever reason is fun stuff

I think you inadvertently touched on an important point in why toxic behavior in PvP can be so problematic. If you're playing with some friends, people you know reasonably well, then you can trash talk up to the point where you know it's too far and if you do cross the line, you'll probably know and you can apologize.

 

If you trash talk with complete strangers, you have no idea who is joking and who isn't, how far someone is willing to go to defend their pride and get revenge, how deep you may have cut someone with what you thought was a harmless jab, etc.

 

Heck, when you start factoring in cultural barriers and differences in upbringing, it just gets all the more complicated. What was normal for you in your community, your city, even your country, might be completely different in another.

 

For those who want to trash talk without being toxic, my recommendation would be start small with somebody. Poke fun at something silly that maybe isn't even a real insult, it's just worded like one. Get creative and goofy. See if they poke back.

 

I'm pretty sure some people just fly off the handle and then use "trash talk is a good thing" as an excuse to vent their frustrations on strangers. That would certainly qualify as toxic in my book. If it's just to be angry, that's not for competition or friendly banter.

[TrixxieTriss]

I think you inadvertently touched on an important point in why toxic behavior in PvP can be so problematic. If you're playing with some friends, people you know reasonably well, then you can trash talk up to the point where you know it's too far and if you do cross the line, you'll probably know and you can apologize.

 

If you trash talk with complete strangers, you have no idea who is joking and who isn't, how far someone is willing to go to defend their pride and get revenge, how deep you may have cut someone with what you thought was a harmless jab, etc.

 

Heck, when you start factoring in cultural barriers and differences in upbringing, it just gets all the more complicated. What was normal for you in your community, your city, even your country, might be completely different in another.

 

For those who want to trash talk without being toxic, my recommendation would be start small with somebody. Poke fun at something silly that maybe isn't even a real insult, it's just worded like one. Get creative and goofy. See if they poke back.

 

I'm pretty sure some people just fly off the handle and then use "trash talk is a good thing" as an excuse to vent their frustrations on strangers. That would certainly qualify as toxic in my book. If it's just to be angry, that's not for competition or friendly banter.

 

Well said

[DavidAtkinson]

I feel like 8v8 ranked isnt as good as people make it out to be but ok. The 4v4 deathmatch is a perfect system and its exactly what WoW does. People are truly tested to see how well they know their class and how good they are at it. In 8v8 ranked I feel like a lot of games would end in stale mate.

 

This is so wrong, I actually digged up an old post just for you from the time arenas were introduced.

 

05.05.2012 , 03:43 AM | #1

Report Post Quote

 

" Having played WoW for 5+ years now, I can say that BW is right in refusing to implement any kind of arena into this game. Arenas were the worst thing to happen to WoW. If I recall correctly they are what lead to classes getting buffed/nerfed over and over again just for the sake of balance and in the end of I recall one the devs said that "Arenas were the worst idea they ever implemented in WoW". Also but most importantly arenas promote the whole "look at my rating, i'm better than you" mentality which just isnt needed in a new MMO like swtor.

 

In fact, and I know I can speak for I would say 75% of the player base when I say this, the whole reason I left WoW was because of the whole elitism that goes with the game nowadays. I wanted to escape that. Basically if your rating sucks, your considered a "baddie" and not worthy etc etc. Sorry but no i hope BW never implements arenas in this game as we dont need those kind of players here in swtor. If you want arena, then what you need to do is go back to WoW. Ranked WZs are an awesome idea when they do get implemented and imho and I know I can speak for alot of players when I say this, are going to be awesome. I know im looking forward to it. " end of quote

 

Introduction of arenas killed off the initial PVP guilds and a lot of players left....

 

Arenas favor only certain classes and specs and if a players ques on a weaker class/spec he is already dragging the team down .

 

Just yesterday on DM we had a guy trash talking some other guy on the fleet about a ranked game he lost... It was very funny to watch these angry kids rant, but these kinds of things just stop any newcomer from coming into ranked.. No one wants to be around these kinds of players and we are left with the same 15-20 people queing

 

Compared to season 7, 8 the ranked que is emptied considerably and the community has only itself to thank.

Edited August 17, 2019 by DavidAtkinson

[Tharianus]

I feel like 8v8 ranked isnt as good as people make it out to be but ok. The 4v4 deathmatch is a perfect system and its exactly what WoW does. People are truly tested to see how well they know their class and how good they are at it. In 8v8 ranked I feel like a lot of games would end in stale mate.

 

Dude i Play since 8v8 ranked.

That does not mean i have not Arena ranked i Played a lot of Team Ranked Arenas.

 

Well in my case i had the most fun in 8v8 but that is just me.

 

BTT:

 

There was trash Talk in the Old Times, top but in a more civilized way... those kids nowadays in comparison have no Limits... i do not understand why they Stuck with Swtor and do not Play Fortnite where they belong lol.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Tharianus

[JediMasterAlex]

Only it isnt. You are trying deperately to make it gray, but its really rather simple. The real trick to this though is that you dont get to make that decision about what is or isnt toxic for anyone else.

If its gray, its going to be toxic to some people whether you think it is or not.

The solution is simple, stay out of the gray.

 

What? So in your mind I need to censor myself in order to avoid the mere possibility that I might offend someone? So better to be silent then, because someone out there could find anything to be toxic.

 

That is insane. I have no obligation to protect your feelings. If you're offended by something I've said, that's not very important.

 

In other words, my ability to speak freely is much more important than you not getting offended. You shouldn't be encouraging people to stifle their own speech just because they might hurt someone's feelings.

 

Encouraging people to not purposely upset people is a totally different story, and is obviously fine.

 

In all seriousness, this is the kind of debate that makes me worried for the future of free speech. It's maddening.

Edited August 17, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Floplag]

What? So in your mind I need to censor myself in order to avoid the mere possibility that I might offend someone? So better to be silent then, because someone out there could find anything to be toxic.

 

That is insane. I have no obligation to protect your feelings. If you're offended by something I've said, that's not very important.

 

In other words, my ability to speak freely is much more important than you not getting offended. You shouldn't be encouraging people to stifle their own speech just because they might hurt someone's feelings.

 

Encouraging people to not purposely upset people is a totally different story, and is obviously fine.

 

In all seriousness, this is the kind of debate that makes me worried for the future of free speech. It's maddening.

 

No, you need to be intelligent, and honest, enough to know the difference. People get offended to easily, i agree completely with that statement, but that also still not what were talking about and your just pulling stuff out of your rear at this point to defend an indefensible position.

[foxmob]

This is so wrong, I actually digged up an old post just for you from the time arenas were introduced.

 

05.05.2012 , 03:43 AM | #1

Report Post Quote

 

" Having played WoW for 5+ years now, I can say that BW is right in refusing to implement any kind of arena into this game. Arenas were the worst thing to happen to WoW. If I recall correctly they are what lead to classes getting buffed/nerfed over and over again just for the sake of balance and in the end of I recall one the devs said that "Arenas were the worst idea they ever implemented in WoW". Also but most importantly arenas promote the whole "look at my rating, i'm better than you" mentality which just isnt needed in a new MMO like swtor.

 

In fact, and I know I can speak for I would say 75% of the player base when I say this, the whole reason I left WoW was because of the whole elitism that goes with the game nowadays. I wanted to escape that. Basically if your rating sucks, your considered a "baddie" and not worthy etc etc. Sorry but no i hope BW never implements arenas in this game as we dont need those kind of players here in swtor. If you want arena, then what you need to do is go back to WoW. Ranked WZs are an awesome idea when they do get implemented and imho and I know I can speak for alot of players when I say this, are going to be awesome. I know im looking forward to it. " end of quote

 

Introduction of arenas killed off the initial PVP guilds and a lot of players left....

 

Arenas favor only certain classes and specs and if a players ques on a weaker class/spec he is already dragging the team down .

 

Just yesterday on DM we had a guy trash talking some other guy on the fleet about a ranked game he lost... It was very funny to watch these angry kids rant, but these kinds of things just stop any newcomer from coming into ranked.. No one wants to be around these kinds of players and we are left with the same 15-20 people queing

 

Compared to season 7, 8 the ranked que is emptied considerably and the community has only itself to thank.

most of the "toxicity" you speak of is the result of the solo queue system rather than arenas. although the class balance concerns being magnified is legit. that's caused by the TDM nature as well as the reduced number of players on each team.

 

all of that said, 8v8 was doomed in the same way granked is doomed in 4v4. it takes about 2-5 weeks to establish a pecking order. weaker teams stop queuing or start win-trading after the first few weeks of getting crushed (or <crushered> hehe). stronger guilds will q-dodge the big 2 or 3 teams. then the top 2-3 teams will only play each other once or twice once the better team becomes clear. and eventually the queue gets so dry, that it's not worth anyone's time to sit in an empty queue.

 

you could've infused 8v8 with a solo queue, but that would definitely have exacerbated the "toxicity" of the format, far moreso than anything in regs or 8v8 preseason (also keep in mind that people were much worse toward each other in regs when they actually took regs seriously). there are infinitely more ways to screw-up in 8v8. there are also more opportunities to hide your weaknesses. for sure.

 

but anyone who thinks 8v8 grp ranked would've thrived or done any better than 4v4 grp ranked is kidding himself. grp ranked requires shorter seasons. and some sort of changes (class changes, new maps, w/e, but there needs to be some change between seasons -- that more or less applies to all ranked imo)

[JediMasterAlex]

No, you need to be intelligent, and honest, enough to know the difference. People get offended to easily, i agree completely with that statement, but that also still not what were talking about and your just pulling stuff out of your rear at this point to defend an indefensible position.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about in this post. Again, my positions have been quite clear and well-defended. On the other hand, I don't even know what any of your positions are because you've never articulated any. That's probably because if you tried you'd quickly realize how ridiculous your arguments sound when you actually type them out.

Edited August 17, 2019 by JediMasterAlex