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Is It Time To Get Rid of Ranked for Good?


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Posted (edited)

It seems blatantly obvious by now that cheating/wintrading will never be eliminated from ranked. A large amount of players participate either blatantly or using more questionable methods to obtain scores. This results in a negative experience for almost everyone else.

 

My question is mainly for the devs, since I know the community will have strong feelings on the subject, in part for good reason and in part due to a romantic nostalgia.

 

Devs. What are you trying to do with ranked? Reward cheaters and wintraders along with a small group of legitimate players who are very skilled?

 

Reward and encourage subscribers to participate?

 

If you only want to reward a small few of the playerbase, many of whom (not all of course) act aggressively towards other people queing either to make wintrading easier or because the queues are so small that the "elite" get stuck with the "average," then understand that you're sending the message that casuals and "good" players (even if they're subscribers) aren't deserving of any significant rewards.

 

If your intention is to get as many of your subscribers into ranked pvp as possible to keep them queueing for rewards, then you need to totally change how you go about it. Stop making it about "skill" that everyone just equates with cheating and wintrading anyway. Make it about rewarding long-term participation.

 

My suggestion is as follows: Eliminate ranked queues completely. Goodbye ranked PVP, it was fun for a few while it lasted, but cheaters and wintraders and negligence ruined it for the truly good players.

 

Now, add the Ranked Currency rewards to every warzone played. 8v8s. 4v4s. Just playing grants a certain amount of tokens (10 for easy reference). Winning the match gives you more (+5). Scoring 8-10 medals gives you more (+2). Doing your daily gives you more (like now). And weekly.

 

Now the best part (but how can we keep ranked rewards exclusive to subscribers as currently?), limit this currency, just like command ranks, etc. to subscribers only. You can keep trying to make balanced matches using the invisible ELO if you want, or whatever, but make it all PVP.

 

What about players interested in fighting the best of the best? Keep Group Ranked, but change it from accumulating a "Top 96" ranked score to simply rewarding an increased amount of the currency. They can enjoy the challenge they're looking for legitimately without purposely queue dodging the elite to farm noobs and then claim they're OP, lol.

Edited by sharkfishman
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Posted (edited)

Ranked isn’t the problem. Some of the same problems happen in regs and destroy people’s enjoyment. Removing ranked wouldn’t change anything because it would still be in regs,

 

If you wanted to use your argument for removing ranked, you may as well say, “is it time to get rid of pvp for good?”

 

The problem with the cheating in any form of pvp is Bioware policies. They have never been strong or a deterrent to cheating. It’s not that they can’t fix the problem, it’s that they are unwilling to change how they deal with it.

 

Many of use have been saying for 7 years, till we are blue in the face, that Bioware need to change the way they deal with cheats.

It’s the lack of deterrent, inadequate systems to catch them, unreliable or hard ways to report cheating and lastly, lack of transparency when they catch the cheats and what they do about it.

 

Other companies publicly announce how many cheats they catch. What they do to them and they often name and shame them. Not just the players character name, but their online persona outside of the game.

Bioware won’t even name their characters, which can provide total anonymity of their online persona. Unless they are streamers, in which case, they are just dumb and who cares, they have probably already outed themselves.

 

What needs to happen has been said so many times. But let’s list some of the steps again that Bioware need to take to combat this problem.

 

1. Make an easier system to report cheating

2. No warnings for hacking, lag switching, injecting code, bots or other more nefarious cheating. Just instant permanent bans.

3. More harsh measures taken against other cheating, like win trading. Remove all their achievements, rewards and currency from the game, give lengthy bans (more than a week), and don’t allow them to participate in ranked for the rest of the season on their account. 2nd repeat offenders have the ban length tripled and have all characters reduced to back to level 1. 3rd offenders are permanently banned.

4. Permanently banned players for any form of cheating, have their characters named and shamed.

5. Once a month or quarter, Bioware announce how many people have been caught cheating, even if they only get a small ban.

6. Bioware invest in better cheat detection software to make the process easier to catch people

7. Allow forum posts of 100% proof of people cheating. This is important because the whistle blowers are the ones who get punished for posting proof and not the actual cheaters.

8. Educate players what to look for and how to report a cheat to minimise false reporting

9. Fix the game’s bugs and desync that allows some of the cheating in the first place.

10. Publicly state on the forums what the penalty is for cheating and then sticky it to the top.

 

I think I’ve covered most of the ideas people have said over the years. I may have missed some. But even if Bioware did 2/3rds of those, it would help reduce the cheating because there would be a public deterrent with real consequences to back it up.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
Posted (edited)

If you only want to reward a small few of the playerbase, many of whom (not all of course) act aggressively towards other people.

 

That's a big problem here.

 

We have an organized cabal of players that are controlling and ruining ranked for their own selfish desires whether it's to gobble up lots of top titles to sell or other forms of pixels, or simply for the purpose of collecting said pixels for oneself.

 

They just manipulate the matches with win trades and other methods of cheating. The problem is there's too many scumbags cheating, and the system is too easy to cheat. As long as a simple system of scoring is used for ELO ranked on this game will continue to be nothing but a swamp of scummy cheaters.

Edited by Lhancelot
Posted
That's a big problem here.

 

We have an organized cabal of players that are controlling and ruining ranked for their own selfish desires whether it's to gobble up lots of top titles to sell or other forms of pixels, or simply for the purpose of collecting said pixels for oneself.

 

They just manipulate the matches with win trades and other methods of cheating. The problem is there's too many scumbags cheating, and the system is too easy to cheat. As long as a simple system of scoring is used for ELO ranked on this game will continue to be nothing but a swamp of scummy cheaters.

 

I agree completely.

 

I don't dispute that there are legitimate players who honestly want to play well.

 

Unfortunately, the large amount of other players who cheat/wintrade/take questionable actions ruins the experience for everyone.

 

The real question is: What is the purpose of ranked from the devs' point of view? Who do they want it to reward? What kind of actions do they want to reward?

 

After answering those questions, they need a system that actually rewards the players they want it to, and for the right type of play. If they want the rewards to go to cheaters/queue manipulators and others who look for every opportunity to mistreat others for personal gain, then I guess they can keep things as it, lol.

Posted

i do agree about removing solo ranked.. but what i think they should do instead put solo ranked leaderboard on hold right now when they have notice the influnces of bots in the leaderboard right now.

 

go thru that and check who shall not even be there at all..

 

put the leaderboard's on hold till further notice, till they clear it out now.

or they just remove it completely till its playerbase of this game can behave and not use this **** of wintrade/bots.

Posted
Ranked isn’t the problem. Some of the same problems happen in regs and destroy people’s enjoyment. Removing ranked wouldn’t change anything because it would still be in regs.

 

I disagree. I think that the current focus of ranked (placing huge emphasis on WINNING at all costs, rather than actually playing) is a direct reason that cheating and wintrading occur. When is the last time you saw a team wintrade in regs?

 

The way ELO works makes it too easy to manipulate the system for rewards. With a different system that rewarded wins, matches played, medals and NUMEROUS factors simultaneously, put simply, the rewards for winning would be less than currently. Surely you can see the difference for wintraders forced to trade 20 matches for top rewards vs. trying to coordinate 100 matches+, right?

 

If you wanted to use your argument for removing ranked, you may as well say, “is it time to get rid of pvp for good?”

 

This is a strawman. The two are very different in environment, cheating levels, wintrading, focus, group composition, etc.

 

The problem with the cheating in any form of pvp is Bioware policies. They have never been strong or a deterrent to cheating. It’s not that they can’t fix the problem, it’s that they are unwilling to change how they deal with it.

 

This is true. The current system may have worked well with more stringent oversight (i.e. payed employees actively searching for cheating as their sole job). However, this has no impact on my argument, since this obviously isn't the case, and Bioware's past history has proven they're incapable of resolving this ranked problem with the resources they have available. Hence my suggestion.

 

Other companies publicly announce how many cheats they catch. What they do to them and they often name and shame them. Not just the players character name, but their online persona outside of the game.

Bioware won’t even name their characters, which can provide total anonymity of their online persona. Unless they are streamers, in which case, they are just dumb and who cares, they have probably already outed themselves.

 

There are many reasons why blacklisting is prohibited, so you can't state that including this would be entirely positive. In the case of blatant or perma-banned cheaters, however, I agree with you completely.

 

1. Make an easier system to report cheating

2. No warnings for hacking, lag switching, injecting code, bots or other more nefarious cheating. Just instant permanent bans.

3. More harsh measures taken against other cheating, like win trading. Remove all their achievements, rewards and currency from the game, give lengthy bans (more than a week), and don’t allow them to participate in ranked for the rest of the season on their account. 2nd repeat offenders have the ban length tripled and have all characters reduced to back to level 1.

4. Permanently banned players for any form of cheating, have their characters named and shamed.

5. Once a month or quarter, Bioware announce how many people have been caught cheating, even if they only get a small ban.

6. Bioware invest in better cheat detection software to make the process easier to catch people

7. Allow forum posts of 100% proof of people cheating. This is important because the whistle blowers are the ones who get punished for posting proof and not the actual cheaters.

8. Educate players what to look for and how to report a cheat to minimise false reporting

9. Fix the game’s bugs and desync that allows some of the cheating in the first place.

10. Publicly state on the forums what the penalty is for cheating and then sticky it to the top.

 

I think I’ve covered most of the ideas people have said over the years. I may have missed some. But even if Bioware did 2/3rds of those, it would help reduce the cheating because there would be a public deterrent with real consequences to back it up.

 

I seriously doubt many of these solutions would have much difference, simply because much of wintrading is difficult to prove electronically. Bioware can't monitor Discord conversations. How can they tell when someone plays ever-so-slightly less against teammates, giving them a narrow 1v1 victory? Oh, they tried so hard, they just didn't quite make it, right?

 

However, the biggest reason I proposed this change is simply this: Who are the devs trying to target with ranked? Does the current ranked setup actually reward these players, or does it in fact turn them completely away from it?

 

Also, does SWTOR want to invest significant development resources and rewards in what is basically an e-Sport atm? Or does it want to reward a larger portion of subscribers/players for participating?

Posted
My favorite thing about this thread is that, right now, the one right next to it is to get rid of unranked. :p

 

I mean, I personally think whichever thread was started later was likely a consequence of the first...

Posted
I mean, I personally think whichever thread was started later was likely a consequence of the first...

 

Most probably. But aren’t they both one and the same? The only difference is one poses a question and the other makes a statement in the titles.

Posted
I mean, I personally think whichever thread was started later was likely a consequence of the first...

 

It's not. It's actually a culmination of the handling of ranked cheating/wintrading threads and in-game experiences over the past few months.

 

It's a natural conclusion from my point of view.

 

As for the other thread you mention, I read the OP when it was created, found it pretty humorous/absurd, and haven't checked in ever since.

Posted
Most probably. But aren’t they both one and the same? The only difference is one poses a question and the other makes a statement in the titles.

 

If you think this, I wonder how well you read the OP in this thread or the other.

Posted (edited)
If you think this, I wonder how well you read the OP in this thread or the other.

 

Actually I did. And yes they are different, but both threads could essentially be one because they have a similar theme.

 

I’m not saying we shouldn’t have 2 threads. Sometimes that’s needed to split the discussion or to bring more attention to the topic.

 

All I did was agree with Kendra that one thread probably spun out of the other.

 

I do understand your point of view, I don’t agree with your conclusion that ranked should go. I think you can see I agree with you that cheating in the game, especially ranked ,is bad and there are difficulties in eliminating wintrading. But that doesn’t mean you throw out the concept. It just means Bioware need to step up and find a fix to mitigate it better.

 

I dont know if you watched/listened to Snave & Co’s Discussion on ranked a month or so ago. They had some really good ideas on how to mitigate the cheating. I especially liked the idea they had on how to punish the cheaters.

 

We shouldn’t throw out the whole barrel of apples because of a few bad ones. There are more legitimate players than these few cheaters.

 

There are ways Bioware can go to fix the problem. It comes down to, do they have the will and resources to do it? If they don’t or won’t, then maybe it is time to reassess the situation.

 

But... and here’s the reason I’m saying not yet... at no time in the last 5 years have we had someone from Bioware actively engage the community on this topic. Sure Musco has chimed in at the end of a season, but not at the start and not reported actions they took.

 

I’m willing to give Mike the benefit of the doubt till season 11 ends. It’s either fixed or they show they’ve made a serious effort to do something as well as being transparent. If not, then I’m on your side regarding solo ranked. If it comes to that, then my suggestion is they just turn solo ranked into reg arena and remove arena from 8v8 queue.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
Posted (edited)

From my perspective things can't get worse. BW has nothing to lose when it comes to ranked.

 

That being said they should not get rid of it, instead just renovate the entire scoring system! It could only freshen things up, adding change alone would be beneficial to the ranked environment.

 

I believe features in a game including different game modes is good, so removing ranked wouldn't help anything. After all, it's completely voluntary if a player participates in ranked or not. For those who dislike ranked they can simply ignore it.

 

Ranked should be renovated, not removed.

Edited by Lhancelot
Posted
From my perspective things can't get worse. BW has nothing to lose when it comes to ranked.

 

That being said they should not get rid of it, instead just renovate the entire scoring system! It could only freshen things up, adding change alone would be beneficial to the ranked environment.

 

I believe features in a game including different game modes is good, so removing ranked wouldn't help anything. After all, it's completely voluntary if a player participates in ranked or not. For those who dislike ranked they can simply ignore it.

 

Ranked should be renovated, not removed.

 

Agreed.

 

And removing it should always be the last resort to fixing the problem. Look how many people we lost when they removed 8v8 ranked. Lots of pvp guilds just died or up and left the game, I don’t think the pvp population could deal with that happening again.

Posted
Actually I did. And yes they are different, but both threads could essentially be one because they have a similar theme.

 

Both threads present totally different solutions to totally different problems. The other thread is about how to motivate players to play objectives. That is not the purpose of this thread in the least.

 

The other thread is about forcing everyone to play ranked, turning current systems into the deeply flawed ranked scoring/rewards system. That is literally THE OPPOSITE of every point I have made. Again, might want to check your reading a little, lol.

 

As for your "bad apples" analogy, it doesn't fit this case. There are more than 2 or 3 people wintrading and cheating every season. Part is because they want to cheat, but a large part is the way the ranked system is set up, the way it rewards, what part of gameplay it specifically rewards, the type of rewards it offers, who it rewards, how it scores advancement and the audience it appears catered to vs. what the devs have stated as its intended audience.

 

Put simply, ranked is flawed from the core. Unless it's supposed to be an e-Sport. If the devs intend that, then they can keep everything as is and simply increase spending on anti-wintrading measures for the HUGE COMMUNITY (sarcasm) that loyally plays ranked due to these underlying issues.

 

If that's not their intent, then a lot of things need to change about its structure, randomness and design.

Posted
From my perspective things can't get worse. BW has nothing to lose when it comes to ranked.

 

That being said they should not get rid of it, instead just renovate the entire scoring system! It could only freshen things up, adding change alone would be beneficial to the ranked environment.

 

I believe features in a game including different game modes is good, so removing ranked wouldn't help anything. After all, it's completely voluntary if a player participates in ranked or not. For those who dislike ranked they can simply ignore it.

 

Ranked should be renovated, not removed.

 

I agree it needs changing.

 

The question is, what is ranked really about?

 

Did the devs design it to reward the best of the best of the best with exclusive items, leaving a majority of their subscribers out of the picture? Is it supposed to entice subscribers to actually play it?

 

My feeling is that adding subscriber-exclusive rewards to all PVP may be closer to what they actually intended, and appeal to a much wider player base, while making it harder for wintraders and cheaters to gain anything significantly more valuable than everyone has available.

 

If that's not the case, I'll support any change made to ranked scoring, but I don't think it solves the underlying problem of bad design.

 

It's like if they decided to limit all rewards in operations to NiM raiders only. Doesn't sound smart to me, but I guess it's their game. At least NiM raiders would have to play legit, since there's no wintrading in PVE, lol.

Posted (edited)
Both threads present totally different solutions to totally different problems. The other thread is about how to motivate players to play objectives. That is not the purpose of this thread in the least.

 

The other thread is about forcing everyone to play ranked, turning current systems into the deeply flawed ranked scoring/rewards system. That is literally THE OPPOSITE of every point I have made. Again, might want to check your reading a little, lol.

 

As for your "bad apples" analogy, it doesn't fit this case. There are more than 2 or 3 people wintrading and cheating every season. Part is because they want to cheat, but a large part is the way the ranked system is set up, the way it rewards, what part of gameplay it specifically rewards, the type of rewards it offers, who it rewards, how it scores advancement and the audience it appears catered to vs. what the devs have stated as its intended audience.

 

Put simply, ranked is flawed from the core. Unless it's supposed to be an e-Sport. If the devs intend that, then they can keep everything as is and simply increase spending on anti-wintrading measures for the HUGE COMMUNITY (sarcasm) that loyally plays ranked due to these underlying issues.

 

If that's not their intent, then a lot of things need to change about its structure, randomness and design.

 

Wow, I tried to get you to see my point of view and I acknowledged yours as valid. But it seems you are stuck on this path that ranked needs to go. I tried offering solutions or reasons to fix it, but not you?

 

I guess there’s nothing more to say because you have a chip on your shoulder about ranked. Nothing anyone, especially me, will obviously change your mind.

 

So that means the thread wasn’t a question as to wether it should be removed, but more along the lines of “ranked has problems, there is no fix, just remove it” and you were only looking for people to support your point of view. You didn’t want to have a discussion about it.

 

You are of course allowed to voice that opinion, but you don’t speak for us in saying it should be removed and that is why I gave a counter point.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
Posted (edited)

I’d like to also clear up a fallacy that the ranked community is so small or not many people play it.

 

There are currently 12210 characters listed as playing ranked in season 11 (not including the cheats who’ve been caught and have a ranking of 1).

 

Even if 50% of those are first timers who don’t return or mat farmers, thats still leaves 6105 characters.

 

Let’s say players have 3 Alts (even though a lot just have one due to the ridiculous gearing). That’s 2035 individual players.

 

Obviously I cannot know wether 50% are first timers or mat farmers or how many Alts people have. But even on my over estimated guess work, you can see it’s not a small number and I would hazard a guess it is much higher than that.

 

A more conservative number is more likely 65-75% of characters are really there to play ranked. And people probably only have 1-3 Alts. You are then looking at over 3000-4000+ actual ranked players.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
Posted (edited)
Wow, I tried to get you to see my point of view and I acknowledged yours as valid. But it seems you are stuck on this path that ranked needs to go. I tried offering solutions or reasons to fix it, but not you?

 

It's my point of view. You're welcome to express yours, but why should I have to change mine to conform to yours?

I guess there’s nothing more to say because you have a chip on your shoulder about ranked. Nothing anyone, especially me, will obviously change your mind.

 

This is completely false. I have no "chip on my shoulder." I have an opinion, which you seem intent on turning into an emotional argument.

 

So that means the thread wasn’t a question as to wether it should be removed, but more along the lines of “ranked has problems, there is no fix, just remove it” and you were only looking for people to support your point of view. You didn’t want to have a discussion about it.

 

I stated in the OP that the question was for the devs. I couldn't care less whether you support my view or not, since the purpose of the thread was to ask the devs what their point of view/vision is. Don't confuse dismissing the lack of basis of your arguments (i.e. we disagree fundamentally that stopping wintrading using the resources the devs have is even possible) with not wanting to have a discussion. I'm perfectly calm (maybe you are too, it's hard to tell with forum posts). You can continue to express your POV all you want, and I will continue to point out the parts I disagree with.

 

You are of course allowed to voice that opinion, but you don’t speak for us in saying it should be removed and that is why I gave a counter point.

 

This is a total strawman (you seem good at those). I never claimed to speak for you, and never indicated you couldn't give a counter point. I merely said that your comparison of two threads was entirely erroneous. Your welcome to continue expressing your opinion as much as you want. In fact, that's even better for the devs. More ideas are better, even if I personally disagree with your conclusions strongly.

Edited by sharkfishman
Posted
I’d like to also clear up a fallacy that the ranked community is so small or not many people play it.

 

There are currently 12210 characters listed as playing ranked in season 11 (not including the cheats who’ve been caught and have a ranking of 1).

 

Even if 50% of those are first timers who don’t return or mat farmers, thats still leaves 6105 characters.

 

Let’s say players have 3 Alts (even though a lot just have one due to the ridiculous gearing). That’s 2035 individual players.

 

Obviously I cannot know wether 50% are first timers or mat farmers or how many Alts people have. But even on my over estimated guess work, you can see it’s not a small number and I would hazard a guess it is much higher than that.

 

A more conservative number is more likely 65-75% of characters are really there to play ranked. And people probably only have 1-3 Alts. You are then looking at over 3000-4000+ actual ranked players.

 

So your idea is to clear up a "fallacy" using made up facts, guesses, estimates and uncomfirmed data. OK.

Posted
So your idea is to clear up a "fallacy" using made up facts, guesses, estimates and uncomfirmed data. OK.

 

I assume the 12k number comes from the leaderboards, after that everything is guesswork because BW is never going to tell us how many people play what content.

 

The point is that as long as there are some people who are only subbed for ranked pvp we should leave it in the game because more players actively playing benefits everyone.

 

I am no ranked pvp fan - I find ranked pvp to be a breeding ground for not just cheating, but unsportsmanlike behavior in general. But sometimes the solution is not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. All I want ranked players to realize is that just because someone does not choose to do ranked, does not mean they are automatically worse than someone that does. Its remarkable really how much simplier everything would be if we all simply treated each other with basic respect (and yes, I'm guilty of breaking the golden rule on occasion).

Posted
So your idea is to clear up a "fallacy" using made up facts, guesses, estimates and uncomfirmed data. OK.

 

You can’t argue that there aren’t 12210 characters currently on the leader board for season 11.

 

And yes, the rest is guess work. But any reasonable person can come to the conclusion that there are many more people playing ranked than you think.

Posted
I assume the 12k number comes from the leaderboards, after that everything is guesswork because BW is never going to tell us how many people play what content.

 

The point is that as long as there are some people who are only subbed for ranked pvp we should leave it in the game because more players actively playing benefits everyone.

 

I am no ranked pvp fan - I find ranked pvp to be a breeding ground for not just cheating, but unsportsmanlike behavior in general. But sometimes the solution is not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. All I want ranked players to realize is that just because someone does not choose to do ranked, does not mean they are automatically worse than someone that does. Its remarkable really how much simplier everything would be if we all simply treated each other with basic respect (and yes, I'm guilty of breaking the golden rule on occasion).

 

Agreed, you’ve pretty much summed up what I’ve been saying and how I feel too.

 

I don’t think the OP cares for anyone else because they have it out for the ranked format for what ever reason. It makes you wonder what burnt then so bad about it ;)

Posted

Like I said in another thread, I would introduce a very long preseason, like we had at launch of the game. That would clear things up. Bioware would see how many would stay and how many would leave.

 

People always come back to this game, as time has shown, so if they then launch another season, people will be back if really too many left.

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