SWToR from my point of view

[SeloDaoC]

Problem with these kind of games, and most new mmos, is that their made for mostly PvE and Casual players.

 

PvE mmos have the flaw of "ending" when you get to max lvl, and the only thing you can do is 3-4 instances over and over until you have your full set. The rest of the time you pretty much just stand around.

 

I do really like instancing, just becouse of the reason of gearing up my char and beating hard content, since a challenge is for me atleast, more interesting then story.

 

Bioware does exactly this, and i myself, is not fond of making alts, infact, i hardly every play any alts and ive played mmos since meridian. I rather maximise my character.

Im a maximiser and play to get new gear and improving my character, ive never really been a story player.

 

Even if you make alts in SWToR, its still the same planets, still the same sidequests and npcs you talk to. Its no fun "discovering" stuff you have already seen before.

 

 

All this is why i prefer PvP games. Those games start at max level, although there havent really been that many great mmos with good PvP. DaoC is atleast in my opinion the best one.

 

Many people bash PvP based on their experiance from World of Warcraft ("play fps games for real PvP"), but i dont know many mmo players that have experianced DaoCs good pvp that says they wouldnt like to experiance it again. Problem with 2 factions is that PvP always leads to camping of one side.

 

Unfortunally, and i dont know why, no developer seems to dare taking up the 3-way realm/faction pvp system that DaoC had, yet it gets voted the best type of mmo and pvp game over and over. Most developers rather copy world of warcrafts skirmish fps style pvp which is considered one of the worst kinds of PvP.

 

 

To succed with a new mmo today you need both a very solid PvE AND a PvP core.

 

1. 3 factions

2. Open zone pvp with sieges, relics etc like DaoC

3. Skillbased instead of Gearbased for PvP, maybe seperate gear for PvE and PvP

 

 

As it is now, atleast for me as more of a competative pvp maximiser, SWToR will quickly lead to me jumping around the fleet base becouse theres nothing to do

 

I wonder if GW2 will satisfy my PvP needs a bit more

Edited December 29, 2011 by SeloDaoC

[ozirizo]

You should rename the topic to "SWToR fom my Very Personal Point of View".

 

Good luck with other mmo's though.

[DarthDolemite]

You should rename the topic to "SWToR fom my Very Personal Point of View".

 

Good luck with other mmo's though.

 

^^^^mad

[SnaggleFox]

That's something I liked about Aion. Once you hit max level you still had months of PvP ahead of you to get PvP gear. Sad part is, and one of the major flaws of the game is you could get that PvP gear faster by PvE :/

 

Sieges wern't really fun either because 1 side always dominated due to the third faction being AI and never worked correctly.

[hardicon]

well one question why did you get this game then.

 

pretty much everyone knew it would be this way, what from all the reviews made you think this game would be a pvp paradise.

 

 

you dont like story you said, but yet every single video i have seen over the last 2 to 3 years talks about the story and what they are trying to do with the storyline. when asked about pvp, the developers always said, um yeah we got it.

 

so why did you pick up this game and think it would be a pvp paradise.

 

maybe i just dont understand how someone can buy something and then expect it to be something else.

 

its like buying animal crackers and thinking they should be graham crackers instead.

[Skerry]

The problem is, MMO's don't typically make PVP a key aspect of the game. With the exception of DAOC, Shadowbane and to some degree Anarchy Online - PVP is a side game.

 

MMOs primary setting is PVE.

 

Because of this, PVPers will most likely always be disappointed with that aspect as again, it isn't a focus. Games that try to bring focus to it end up in a balancing nightmare.

 

They all throw it in there, even EQ2 which was staunchly against it ended up throwing it in later, but that is to attract that demographic -more like LURE that demographic into their MMO space. I think it is just that mechanically PVP doesn't truly work in MMO's.

 

Yes DAOC was the best (and is considered the best by MOST pvpers) however even that was not perfect by a long shot.

[SeloDaoC]

That's something I liked about Aion. Once you hit max level you still had months of PvP ahead of you to get PvP gear. Sad part is, and one of the major flaws of the game is you could get that PvP gear faster by PvE :/

 

Sieges wern't really fun either because 1 side always dominated due to the third faction being AI and never worked correctly.

 

 

Or the major lagg

 

 

You should rename the topic to "SWToR fom my Very Personal Point of View".

 

Good luck with other mmo's though.

 

Fixed but theres not really any need for bashing

[Thor_Doomhammer]

I used to really like this style of PvP in WoW, but then got utterly, horribly addicted to EVE. Loose, and loose your ship and all the nice shinys fitted to it, and possibly also implants and skill points as well. Win and, well, you've just done that to the other guy Ever since, I've just never been able to get into such inconsequential combat. Win by a mile? Get utterly stomped? Still get spat out with nothing having changed, no consequence, no risk. Seems a bit lame. Hence why I'll always be a dirty dirty carebear in TOR. Edited December 29, 2011 by Thor_Doomhammer

[SeloDaoC]

well one question why did you get this game then.

 

pretty much everyone knew it would be this way, what from all the reviews made you think this game would be a pvp paradise.

 

 

you dont like story you said, but yet every single video i have seen over the last 2 to 3 years talks about the story and what they are trying to do with the storyline. when asked about pvp, the developers always said, um yeah we got it.

 

so why did you pick up this game and think it would be a pvp paradise.

 

maybe i just dont understand how someone can buy something and then expect it to be something else.

 

its like buying animal crackers and thinking they should be graham crackers instead.

 

 

No you got me wrong, i knew it would be like that, i even played alpha testing. Its jsut that i think SWToR might be a game that will make many players feel burnt out on very quick. There is 8 storylines to play through, but what is there to do after that? and most of them will pretty much be the same

 

Im sure many of you have played many mmos, and i think many of you know how much fun there is when you have done all the content

Edited December 29, 2011 by SeloDaoC

[SnaggleFox]

Or the major lagg

 

 

 

 

Fixed but theres not really any need for bashing

 

Lag depends on your computer and internet ;p

 

I attended quite a few 1000+ player sieges and never had to turn off character models or turn down graphics.

[owenthorn]

soo tired of hearing you pvp wanna bes cry about pvp in a PVE MMO, go play a FPS, CoD, MW3 etc... games that thier only focus IS PVP, and you won't be here crying , why do you buy an MMO, that you know the core focus IS PVE?????

[SeloDaoC]

Lag depends on your computer and internet ;p

 

I attended quite a few 1000+ player sieges and never had to turn off character models or turn down graphics.

 

Nah actually it was not, i had a very top end computer at that time and still do, but there was something wrong in the client not beeing able to handle moret hen 3gb data due to it beeing made for 32 bit and not 64 so the client lagged massivly and crashed every time you got to a big city. It was and are a lacking thing with the CryEngine and why most developers refrain from using it

 

There were even a 490 pages long topic about it on the forum ,but all NCsoft said it was the players computers fault and not the client even though players pointed on the exact problem, people even made those Hitler movies about it

 

When NCsoft finally admited they were wrong, instead of fixing it, they forced the game to set down your graphics when it started lagging, which ended up with you not seeing anyone around you, friends or enemies, just red text flying and all graphics on lower settings.

 

Strangely enough, those with worse computers didnt have this problem

 

 

A bit offtopic there

[SeloDaoC]

soo tired of hearing you pvp wanna bes cry about pvp in a PVE MMO, go play a FPS, CoD, MW3 etc... games that thier only focus IS PVP, and you won't be here crying , why do you buy an MMO, that you know the core focus IS PVE?????

 

Exactly what i said in my post, your cave is over there ->

 

And i dont think the problems is there only for the PvPers

 

Many PvErs might expect there to be more instancing etc to do when they get to max lvl, players that are used to World of Worldcrafts endgame (yes its not wow)

 

Question is, how long will the "story" be enough to keep players playing?

Edited December 29, 2011 by SeloDaoC

[QDMcGraw]

Problem with these kind of games, and most new mmos, is that their made for mostly PvE and Casual players.

 

I agree, as that is their market. PVP is an afterthought to get people like you excited for a new brand of PVP when it's really the same old thing with new skins.

 

PvE mmos have the flaw of "ending" when you get to max lvl, and the only thing you can do is 3-4 instances over and over until you have your full set. The rest of the time you pretty much just stand around.

 

False. There is no true 'end'. So you killed the 'world boss' or whatever, that means you've made an accomplishment, but how many have you skipped out on to get there. MMO's have multiple facets and reducing them to mob content is a false attribution to their design

 

I do really like instancing, just becouse of the reason of gearing up my char and beating hard content, since a challenge is for me atleast, more interesting then story.

 

Bioware does exactly this, and i myself, is not fond of making alts, infact, i hardly every play any alts and ive played mmos since meridian. I rather maximise my character.

Im a maximiser and play to get new gear and improving my character, ive never really been a story player.

 

Just as I'm sure you're not alone in your thoughts of hating alts, I am not alone in being an altoholic. For many of us old school gamers, we remember a time when the genre was called MMORPG. TOR brought the RPG back to the MMO and myself and people that remember those days welcome this reverse in theory. Star Wars is a story driven genre, rich in history, lore and special effects. The Campbellian Mythos gripped us hard and we went along for the ride. Not having these elements in a SW game wouldn't be the same.

 

And it's funny that game companies put so much effort into back stories and lore when the generation you are a part of don't care about it. I talk to my friends kids and they all play WoW and they know the names of the bosses and their loot tables, but nothing else at all. The Lich King was just a target with phat loots for them, nothing more. Culling of Stratholme was just a heroic dungeon they queued up for, nothing more.

 

Even if you make alts in SWToR, its still the same planets, still the same sidequests and npcs you talk to. Its no fun "discovering" stuff you have already seen before.

 

With different class stories. Sentinels and Guardians have different story lines. Smugglers and Troopers have different story lines. Same locations, different quests.

 

 

All this is why i prefer PvP games. Those games start at max level, although there havent really been that many great mmos with good PvP. DaoC is atleast in my opinion the best one.

 

Dark Age Of Cameltoe was ok at best. PVP was cool because of world RVR, but WAR was much better with the Rock/Paper/Scissors approach to classes. many people hated because they felt if they as players had mad skillz, they should be able to roflstomp any and all takers from ability alone. (see what I did there, I countered your opinion with my own, we're both equally right about it).

 

Many people bash PvP based on their experiance from World of Warcraft ("play fps games for real PvP"), but i dont know many mmo players that have experianced DaoCs good pvp that says they wouldnt like to experiance it again. Problem with 2 factions is that PvP always leads to camping of one side.

 

There will always be camping as long as there is PVP, regardless of how many sides are involved.

 

Unfortunally, and i dont know why, no developer seems to dare taking up the 3-way realm/faction pvp system that DaoC had, yet it gets voted the best type of mmo and pvp game over and over. Most developers rather copy world of warcrafts skirmish fps style pvp which is considered one of the worst kinds of PvP.

 

WoW is a very popular game because it is easy, cartoonish and fast. You can get max level pretty fast, there's only 1 spec to have, and everyone gets a chance at phat loots. It's the common denominator MMO. Anything cool that another gaming company puts into their game, Blizzard steals and puts in WoW. Plain and simple. They've had very little actual innovation, they just implement other peoples ideas fast.

 

 

To succed with a new mmo today you need both a very solid PvE AND a PvP core.

 

No you don't, otherwise PVE servers wouldn't exist and wouldn't outnumber PVP servers.

 

1. 3 factions

2. Open zone pvp with sieges, relics etc like DaoC

3. Skillbased instead of Gearbased for PvP, maybe seperate gear for PvE and PvP

 

Programming for 3 factions is not fun. And if Cameltoe was so great why isn't it ruling the roost of MMO's? Why does EQ1 (an almost pure PVE game) have a bigger following? I'm glad you like it, but this isn't that game. This game is WILDLY more popular and has more start up accounts than Cameltoe ever had!

 

Open world Sieges? Not coded. This game was coded for PVE, even you said it, and you want them to code open world sieges? Do you have an inkling of an idea the coding involved in this to implement it?

 

As it is now, atleast for me as more of a competative pvp maximiser, SWToR will quickly lead to me jumping around the fleet base becouse theres nothing to do

 

I wonder if GW2 will satisfy my PvP needs a bit more

 

Sorry you feel that way. Go play DaoC and be as happy as you can be! Since you have been harping on it so much, it's the most logical conclusion.

[hardicon]

No you got me wrong, i knew it would be like that, i even played alpha testing. Its jsut that i think SWToR might be a game that will make many players feel burnt out on very quick. There is 8 storylines to play through, but what is there to do after that? and most of them will pretty much be the same

 

Im sure many of you have played many mmos, and i think many of you know how much fun there is when you have done all the content

 

well ok thought you was complaining about how they did pvp.

 

the one thing i think wow truly did right was there was always something to do. sure it might have been repetitive to run certain raids over and over but the lure of making your character better made people stick around. as long as swtor continues to make sure you have something to do then i think it will be fine. games where there is no point anymore to sticking around are the games that have dwindling player bases.

 

city of heroes-- for so long there was just nothing for a level 50 to do to increase his character. playerbase started dwindling.

 

asherons call--- for along time level 126 was max level, you could get more experience but the level stayed at 126. then they raised it, which was good to 275 but after that still no way to actually make your character better. then eventually they started adding other ways but the damage was done.

 

in wow there was always something to do, some way to improve your character---- 10 plus million subs. sure lately they have been dwindling but that is because blizzard is taking away more and more choices for the players to improve their character. just go look at the new talents, you get 5 of them and they all pretty much suck, every character is just gonna be the same. blizzard got lazy or tired at balancing stuff and decided to make everything equal so they didnt have to balance anymore.

 

i seriously hope bioware never gets lazy and tired, because i like the skill trees and the added depth to my character.

[SeloDaoC]

text.

 

No need fo bashing

 

Both you and me knows games get outdated. Problem with DaoC was also that it had a big fanbase of dedicated players, but then they ruined it with one expansion and people felt betrayed. EQ has always been the same,

 

Your clearly a PvE player which i have no problem with, but its kinda clear you didnt really try DaoC or ACs PvP and if you did focused more on the PvE aspect. Sure DaoC also had its problems but it was still the best PvP game. Just mentioning Warhammer as a better PvP game kinda says it all.

 

 

I dont know what you mean with "my generation" since im probably the same age as you or older and have probably played more mmos then you, im just as "oldschool" as anyone, and no, mmorpgs have not had that great storyline in the earlier mmorpgs, infact they basicly have had none.

 

Im perfectly fine with SWToR beeing a PvE game, but it might hurt mmorpgs in todays business making games that are ONLY made for PvE, or in SWToRs case story, there arent to much endgame PvE.

 

its not strange PvE servers are more populated, PvP in most new games are really bad, and most players havent experianced good PvP considering a big part of the community comes from World of Warcraft.

 

 

well ok thought you was complaining about how they did pvp.

 

the one thing i think wow truly did right was there was always something to do. sure it might have been repetitive to run certain raids over and over but the lure of making your character better made people stick around. as long as swtor continues to make sure you have something to do then i think it will be fine. games where there is no point anymore to sticking around are the games that have dwindling player bases.

 

city of heroes-- for so long there was just nothing for a level 50 to do to increase his character. playerbase started dwindling.

 

asherons call--- for along time level 126 was max level, you could get more experience but the level stayed at 126. then they raised it, which was good to 275 but after that still no way to actually make your character better. then eventually they started adding other ways but the damage was done.

 

in wow there was always something to do, some way to improve your character---- 10 plus million subs. sure lately they have been dwindling but that is because blizzard is taking away more and more choices for the players to improve their character. just go look at the new talents, you get 5 of them and they all pretty much suck, every character is just gonna be the same. blizzard got lazy or tired at balancing stuff and decided to make everything equal so they didnt have to balance anymore.

 

i seriously hope bioware never gets lazy and tired, because i like the skill trees and the added depth to my character.

 

Yes, todays mmo players are well, playerwise, better at getting through content faster, they might be the best in personality but players are more experianced.

 

If, at you say, there arent stuff to do at endgame, the playernumbers will dwindle.

 

And im a bit afraid that is where SWToR might suffer, adding 1 new operation might not be enough. And why in my opinion, PvP games are superior since players create their own "content" where things are never the same, atleast if the PvP is based on open world/zones with sieges etc.

Skirmishes, or FPS type of PvP is not that fun and quickly becomes stale since you always know where the enemy will come from and once you have a set tactic people will use it over and over, open world pvp is much more dynamic.

Edited December 29, 2011 by SeloDaoC

[Baizak]

With all due respect to the OP. MMO's do not need a strong PvP core. If they did the PvE servers would not heavily outnumber the PvP servers. It would be the other way around. You would probably enjoy a game like Call of duty more than an MMO.

[QDMcGraw]

No need fo bashing

 

 

My apologies, but I think you understand my point. We both agree PVP in most MMO's is an afterthought. DaoC did do it right with RVR and I played it for many months but quit before any expansions landed. I felt WAR did it the best with their class approach.

 

I am mainly PVE, but I do play on PVP servers and have specific PVP characters. TOR wasn't a secret project, it didn't hide anything once the NDA was lifted, so to come back after the game is launched complaining about the PVP and trying to add input just seems a little silly to me. It's common knowledge it's primarily a PVE game, and as with most games geared towards PVE, PVP suffers.

 

All players feel their input is valid and want change enacted from their suggestions, but I get a little squirrelly in the brain about PVPers. The changes they want to enact impact PVE directly. I've seen changes made to appease PVPers that had serious ramifications on PVE, as I'm sure you have too. If you've been around for a while, you know these things, and I can't understand why someone would post these pipe dreams about perfect PVP to a PVE game. It's odd to me, that's all.

[Esaru]

It's unfortunate because I love the idea of SWTOR PVP... I'd be ecstatic if they could somehow expand on the ways we can PVP and hopefully bring some balance to it.